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View Full Version : 109e too sensetive in il-2 at full realism.



stalkervision
02-10-2007, 11:15 AM
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif On the other hand I believe the later 109's are way over modeled in Il-2 to resistance to stalls. Bob 2 has no later 109's so I can't compare them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

stalkervision
02-10-2007, 11:15 AM
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif On the other hand I believe the later 109's are way over modeled in Il-2 to resistance to stalls. Bob 2 has no later 109's so I can't compare them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-10-2007, 11:25 AM
Hmmm

Well, never having flown an Emil in real life, myself, I am at a loss as to why BOB2's Emil is correct, while this sim's Emil is not

Try to Google "Mark Hanna". Although regrettably Mr Hanna is deceased, he used to do articles for Warbirds Worldwide, and was a very very accomplished Warbird pilot. he flew Hispano Buschons extensively and did an article once on the aircraft's flying charcteristics

I can say however that this is the first time I've read that Il2's stall is too severe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stalkervision
02-10-2007, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
Hmmm

Well, never having flown an Emil in real life, myself, I am at a loss as to why BOB2's Emil is correct, while this sim's Emil is not

Try to Google "Mark Hanna". Although refrettable Mr Hanna is deceased, he used to do articles for Warbirds Worldwide, and was a very very accomplished Warbird pilot. he flew Hispano Buschons extensively and did an article once on the aircraft's flying charcteristics

I can say however that this is the first time I've read that Il2's stall is too severe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have really only found this with the 109 e. Even the p-39 has better handling then it and that was known to stall really easily...

JFC_Rautaristi
02-10-2007, 12:06 PM
In my experience Emil handles quite nicely. It doesn't turn well, but it certainly doesn't stall easily. And when it does, if the pilot does even a fraction of what should be done not to spin, it won't spin.

On the contrary to the P39, which turns more than nicely, but once you stall it, you'd better have altitude.

Just my experiences though...

stalkervision
02-10-2007, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JFC_Rautaristi:
In my experience Emil handles quite nicely. It doesn't turn well, but it certainly doesn't stall easily. And when it does, if the pilot does even a fraction of what should be done not to spin, it won't spin.

On the contrary to the P39, which turns more than nicely, but once you stall it, you'd better have altitude.

Just my experiences though... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice to hear them. Personal flying experiances are welcome here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

TopGunBkk
02-10-2007, 12:52 PM
Whats a bob?

BRING ON THE *****ES=BOB

p-11.cAce
02-12-2007, 10:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok this is one of the most insane posts I've seen in a long time. I fly the Emil ALOT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif - its practically the only plane in this sim that I fly, and I currently fly 10-15 hours a week. The Emil is a JOY to fly...and I've never had it stall unexpectedly. It has its quirks, be sure, but rediculous stalling behavior?? bah! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

crazyivan1970
02-12-2007, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif On the other hand I believe the later 109's are way over modeled in Il-2 to resistance to stalls. Bob 2 has no later 109's so I can't compare them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a dedicated 109 jock for almost 6 years i dont find anything funky in Emils behavior. Emil, just like many other planes in IL-2 series is what you make of it.

Bearcat99
02-12-2007, 10:51 PM
I am still gagging over the fact that he compared it to BoBII.

Akronnick
02-12-2007, 10:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif On the other hand I believe the later 109's are way over modeled in Il-2 to resistance to stalls. Bob 2 has no later 109's so I can't compare them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You see, 'round here, we like to compare the flight models to actual real world flight test data. Comparing an Il-2 FM to an FM from another sim doesn't really carry a lot of weight.

p-11.cAce
02-12-2007, 10:58 PM
Yeah I don't know about you guys (Bearcat & Ivan) but I'm getting tired of all the BoB:wovII posts in this forum. I am sure you recognize me and while I probably post more OT stuff than I should, sometimes the BoB stuff is just advertising (intentional or not).

FE_pilot
02-12-2007, 11:01 PM
This is of topic but i just learned that, since my Real name Is Emil,(Born in Hamburg,Germany and moved to the USA in 1994) i have something in common with my favorite axis plane. I always thought that the Letters behind the names of the 109's like E,F,G,K was just a model number, now i know better.


By the way, The 109E does not stall easily, but as CrazyIvan said even the P-39 had better has better handeling, or maybe its that you are using it the wrong way, (As a turn Fighter).

WWSensei
02-12-2007, 11:15 PM
My bet is that improperly configured stick settings combined with a hamfisted approach is more to blame rather than "FM errors".

TheGozr
02-12-2007, 11:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9k8hMSsQnU
- Bf109-K4 Test

trumper
02-13-2007, 04:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I am still gagging over the fact that he compared it to BoBII. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gifYou lowered yourself there Bearcat.I am surprised at a respected simmer like you knocking something that alot of people have worked hard on for the enjoyment of everyone.
I trust like many others on here you have many hours flying real 109's.
You know as well as i one person can handle the same plane totally differently to someone else,theres also individual controllers and set ups involved,so who is to say who is right or wrong.
Oleg is'nt perfect nor is BoB11 but theres no need to be so dismissive of someone else .
I am beginning to see alot of faces on the BoB11 forums that fly here too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

trumper
02-13-2007, 04:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGozr:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9k8hMSsQnU
- Bf109-K4 Test </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The sound on that is incredible,great footage as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
I could be *****y about f/b and say Oleg has lawnmowers for sound,[but i wont] but i CAN verify that the D Benz on il2 don't sound like that in real life,and YES i have seen and videoed 2x 109's with D B engines. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zoom2136
02-13-2007, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
My bet is that improperly configured stick settings combined with a hamfisted approach is more to blame rather than "FM errors". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on !!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

PBNA-Boosher
02-13-2007, 09:32 AM
I have never had a problem flying 109's. In fact, I find them to fly in-game somewhat as described- "Like it flew on rails." Its movements are deliberate. There is no wishy-washyness. I like its straight, direct approaches. That being said, when I fly the 109 it's usually either the E-7/B or the G-6. F versions I don't like because they turn too easily and I tend to bleed my speed. I don't like the K because I don't like the "newish" cockpit that comes on later models of the G. When flying these planes in game I feel very connected to the aircraft.

I compare that to my real flying experience in Pipers and Cessnas and look favorably upon it. True, the 109 is a GIGANTICALLY different beast to Pipers and Cessnas. True, the 109 is MUCH faster, climbs MUCH better, and performs MUCH better, but I can feel at home in its cockpit in game just as I feel at home in the cockpit of a Piper Cherokee. That goes likewise for my other rides, the Yak-1b/ Yak-9, P-40's and P-38's.

SeaFireLIV
02-13-2007, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif On the other hand I believe the later 109's are way over modeled in Il-2 to resistance to stalls. Bob 2 has no later 109's so I can't compare them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


This is so pointless. He`s probabaly fishing, but if he`s serious then he`s so as fault cos:

1, You don`t quantify the AUTHENTICITY of a flight simulation`s FM by comparing it to ANOTHER flight simulation`s FM. You compare them to real-life evidence found from historical books, real-life pilot experiences and even authentic test data. It`s got to be from reality.

Every SIM is someone`s version of what they think it should be, no matter how `realistic` it may seem.

2. Put down a sim based on what you `feel` or `think` or `can`t imagine could be`. Get FACTS since few Humans know everything about the world by just assuming without any actual experience whatsoever.


Reminds me of the time someone posted asking Oleg to get rid of trimming aircraft because she just `couldn`t imagine` that fighter pilots would go through all that effort in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Hoatee
02-13-2007, 02:12 PM
Let's bring a 3rd party into this - WWIIonline. All three sims fall in the same generation. BoB II I found to be similar to WWIIonline. The problem is the playing public has no idea which of the three flight models (if any) are an accurate reflection of the real thing (even though all the makers purport to base their models on reality).

WWSensei
02-13-2007, 02:36 PM
Hoatee,

Would that be the 109E they modeled with 3 times the lift factor for the wings? By that I mean they had actually modeled 3 wings for the 109 (but no drag on two of them) and the 109 was unbelievable in it's climb rate. I complained for at least 6 months but kept getting told by CRS I didn't know what I was talking about--until they had to admit it. That and my proving that CRS flat out lied about their "first bullet hit gets the kill" algorithm got me permanently banned from their game--to which they promptly triple charged my credit card and I had to go so far as actually filing a small claims lawsuit against them before they backed off...

stalkervision
02-13-2007, 04:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok this is one of the most insane posts I've seen in a long time. I fly the Emil ALOT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif - its practically the only plane in this sim that I fly, and I currently fly 10-15 hours a week. The Emil is a JOY to fly...and I've never had it stall unexpectedly. It has its quirks, be sure, but rediculous stalling behavior?? bah! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the original Il-2 with updates. If the emil has been further updated in FB this may have been improved and explain quite a bit. If I keep the emil from getting too slow no it won't stall without warning in il-2 but I see a definite improvment in BOB in it's slow speed flight characteristics.

p-11.cAce
02-13-2007, 05:42 PM
You can slow speed turn fight with the Emil all day long...so long as you keep the ball in its house, use your flaps to augment lift, and keep on the happy side of the power curve. I've been with the sim since the demo days and have found the Emil to be as consistant as any other a/c in the sim - though I do miss the 4.01 FM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

WWMaxGunz
02-13-2007, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you handle the BoB2 109E fine but not the IL2 109E. And that makes the IL2 version wrong?

How well do the BoB2 planes self-coordinate in turns? Do you have to use rudder to keep the slip guages near center as you fly in BoB2? I ask because you say "stall given any reason" and flying IL2 with a load of slip will get you that stall and spin easily. It is not something I have seen in other sims and it is not all IL2 planes require the same attention to rudder as IRL the planes do differ.

Oh yeah, I am also not saying that IL2 is 100% perfect at all, it's just well accepted as the most realistic combat flight sim by many people who do know planes and flying much better than I ever will. Some fly aerobatics contests IRL, they can tell where the FM falls short as they did in a big 3.0x thread about stalls and spins and STILL they rated IL2 as the best.

Go ahead, show different. About any of it or about flight modelling.

stalkervision
02-13-2007, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
You can slow speed turn fight with the Emil all day long...so long as you keep the ball in its house, use your flaps to augment lift, and keep on the happy side of the power curve. I've been with the sim since the demo days and have found the Emil to be as consistant as any other a/c in the sim - though I do miss the 4.01 FM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wasn't using flaps which I will try next time to see if it makes a difference...

VW-IceFire
02-13-2007, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif On the other hand I believe the later 109's are way over modeled in Il-2 to resistance to stalls. Bob 2 has no later 109's so I can't compare them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Given that we're all talking about opinions here with no hard data to support anything at all...my opinion of the 109E is that its quite pleasant to fly, very forgiving right up until the slats deploy. Push her a bit harder and it will dig in on the one wing and flop a little bit but it gives you a fair bit of warning. You may want to lighten up your stick sensitivity input bands and see if that helps. The 109E isn't as good as the 109F in terms of overall flying characteristics...it seems to generally lack power but its fairly benign to fly.

The P-39 is plenty responsive on the other hand but if you push it too hard and get into a bad spot it will basically kill your virtual pilot. The P-39's deadly spin stall is present...but it depends a fair bit on fuel load I think.

stalkervision
02-13-2007, 09:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you handle the BoB2 109E fine but not the IL2 109E. And that makes the IL2 version wrong?

How well do the BoB2 planes self-coordinate in turns? Do you have to use rudder to keep the slip guages near center as you fly in BoB2? I ask because you say "stall given any reason" and flying IL2 with a load of slip will get you that stall and spin easily. It is not something I have seen in other sims and it is not all IL2 planes require the same attention to rudder as IRL the planes do differ.

Oh yeah, I am also not saying that IL2 is 100% perfect at all, it's just well accepted as the most realistic combat flight sim by many people who do know planes and flying much better than I ever will. Some fly aerobatics contests IRL, they can tell where the FM falls short as they did in a big 3.0x thread about stalls and spins and STILL they rated IL2 as the best.

Go ahead, show different. About any of it or about flight modelling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you would have to try the emil out in BOB 2 to really understand where I am coming from. Do you own it? Shockwave products are modeled much closer to the real thing IMO and from what I have read about the emil from dozens of sources. Especially "under g" the emil in shockwave seems to duplicate the 109's characteristics much closer from the actual pilot reports I have read of the airplane then Il-2" One can't really make a good opinion on this unless one owns both..

sounds a bit like your "Il-2 bias" is really showing..

I like both games. Both have their strong points and their weak points IMO.

stalkervision
02-13-2007, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Did a quick compairison of the Il-2 109e and Bob 2's "e" The 109 e in Il-2 will stall given any reason whatsoever where the "emil" is IMO well modeled in over all flight characteristics generally in BOB2. Doesn't mean it won't stall just that it doesn't have the rediculous stalling behavior it has in il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif On the other hand I believe the later 109's are way over modeled in Il-2 to resistance to stalls. Bob 2 has no later 109's so I can't compare them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Given that we're all talking about opinions here with no hard data to support anything at all...my opinion of the 109E is that its quite pleasant to fly, very forgiving right up until the slats deploy. Push her a bit harder and it will dig in on the one wing and flop a little bit but it gives you a fair bit of warning. You may want to lighten up your stick sensitivity input bands and see if that helps. The 109E isn't as good as the 109F in terms of overall flying characteristics...it seems to generally lack power but its fairly benign to fly.

The P-39 is plenty responsive on the other hand but if you push it too hard and get into a bad spot it will basically kill your virtual pilot. The P-39's deadly spin stall is present...but it depends a fair bit on fuel load I think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well the whole flight sim fm's from every game are very subjective aren't they.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I like to hear everyone's opinion's (risking life and limb as I do.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) none the less. Sometimes I hear something I haven't heard before. I find the p-39 imo (well modeled) a terrific instantanious "turner' due to it's center of gravity basically built around the center of the plane but as one continues the turn it will snap roll as the real one surely did. This is one plane that could really use slats!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I enjoy flying it still though.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

msalama
02-13-2007, 10:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One can't really make a good opinion on this unless one owns both.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I do and still find all this pure conjecture, though I have to admit that I've mostly flown the Hurri and the Spit in BoBII. But based on those planes I'd say BoBII's flight modelling is seriously lacking in many aspects, too - there's no need to trim out the rudder ever regardless of the power settings used, for example, and the prop gyro effects are virtually non-existent as well in that you can happily go trough a loop without having to touch that rudder at all! So it all indeed _does_ come down to both sims having their strengths and weaknesses, doesn't it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

msalama
02-13-2007, 10:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IMO </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, ***IN YOUR OPINION***. Now that's the key phrase right there.