PDA

View Full Version : Scissors, rolling scissors, barrel rolls etc.



Noxx0s
03-04-2010, 02:58 AM
I'm really struggling with this and I'm not quite sure why.

I've gotten quite good at COUNTERING these moves when they're being done to me. I've figured out that using the vertical is almost always the way to go, it lets you retain/gain energy while your opponent is looping around, and you can keep your eyes on him by simply going inverted. Then when he flattens out, you just pounce.

But I'm struggling with doing these moves correctly myself. I realize how effective they can be too because back before I learned to stop falling for them, I ALWAYS either overshot or just lost track of them, and they'd end up on my 6.

I've read "In Pursuit", I've watched videos on youtube, etc. I still have trouble understanding how to do it though.

It seems many times when I'm starting to do the rolling scissors, I get shot when I'm performing that initial break turn due to the massive speed loss... I seem to make an easy target. This is even when he's right on my tail though (within .20)

A few times I've managed to dodge fire on that first initial turn and once I did that it was easy as cake, I just kept looping from right to left in what was basically a series of barrel rolls and my opponent overshot rapidly. Actually I found that having a poorer turning AC like a 109/190 was actually an advantage, because I would lose speed more rapidly, making the overshoot happen even quicker.

I just struggle with that initial part... not getting shot during it!

Noxx0s
03-04-2010, 02:58 AM
I'm really struggling with this and I'm not quite sure why.

I've gotten quite good at COUNTERING these moves when they're being done to me. I've figured out that using the vertical is almost always the way to go, it lets you retain/gain energy while your opponent is looping around, and you can keep your eyes on him by simply going inverted. Then when he flattens out, you just pounce.

But I'm struggling with doing these moves correctly myself. I realize how effective they can be too because back before I learned to stop falling for them, I ALWAYS either overshot or just lost track of them, and they'd end up on my 6.

I've read "In Pursuit", I've watched videos on youtube, etc. I still have trouble understanding how to do it though.

It seems many times when I'm starting to do the rolling scissors, I get shot when I'm performing that initial break turn due to the massive speed loss... I seem to make an easy target. This is even when he's right on my tail though (within .20)

A few times I've managed to dodge fire on that first initial turn and once I did that it was easy as cake, I just kept looping from right to left in what was basically a series of barrel rolls and my opponent overshot rapidly. Actually I found that having a poorer turning AC like a 109/190 was actually an advantage, because I would lose speed more rapidly, making the overshoot happen even quicker.

I just struggle with that initial part... not getting shot during it!

Jumoschwanz
03-04-2010, 08:45 AM
I think there are a few videos on my YouTube channel that have the pursued evading the foe and turning the tables to come out on top:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jumoschwanz#g/u

I just uploaded another video that has a lot to do with this thread, where a FW190A evades then shoots down a Tempest, but it may take a few hours before it is available in High Definition, YouTube is like that.....

The really experienced "targets" will get you to chase them until their speed is almost up to yours, then when they see you break to go up vertical, they will also go up vertical and be right on your but, and fill you will some lead, but "targets" that educated are one in a hundred!

Also, here is a link to download a few tracks:

http://www.mediafire.com/?c5kib0rmi3y

These were from 2007, when I ended up dueling with "Cmirko" in FW190D9s. There is enough rolling, scissoring and shot-making in these two tracks to make never want to see any again.

Urufu_Shinjiro
03-04-2010, 11:56 AM
You might want to take a look at www.joint-ops.com (http://www.joint-ops.com), they are an online virtual flight combat school and this is exactly the sort of thing they teach there.

Noxx0s
03-04-2010, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
I think there are a few videos on my YouTube channel that have the pursued evading the foe and turning the tables to come out on top:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jumoschwanz#g/u

I just uploaded another video that has a lot to do with this thread, where a FW190A evades then shoots down a Tempest, but it may take a few hours before it is available in High Definition, YouTube is like that.....

The really experienced "targets" will get you to chase them until their speed is almost up to yours, then when they see you break to go up vertical, they will also go up vertical and be right on your but, and fill you will some lead, but "targets" that educated are one in a hundred!

Also, here is a link to download a few tracks:

http://www.mediafire.com/?c5kib0rmi3y

These were from 2007, when I ended up dueling with "Cmirko" in FW190D9s. There is enough rolling, scissoring and shot-making in these two tracks to make never want to see any again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great videos thanks! Learned a lot especially from that tempest one.

One question though, what do you do if you're even speed with the bandit (he doesn't have more E) and he's right on your tail, within say .25?

Now what about same situation, low altitude?

And about using the vertical... I always go into vertical when I see my opponent making a turn that will make me either cut across behind him or have a very difficult shot to make. I just do a yoyo type maneuver unless he continues weaving in which case I keep climbing and then just start BnZing him till he's dead. Would you be able to get on someone's 6 like in the tempest vid if they go vertical IMMEDIATELY when you start scissoring? (say if the tempest had gone vertical when he was about .50 behind you on the first pass to slow down a bit but still maintain E advantage) What would you do in that situation?

And yeah Urufu, I actually signed up for JO. I did the initial 2 week free thing, I'm just waiting for the next Pilot Ground School to sign up for the full course.

Jumoschwanz
03-04-2010, 03:59 PM
Icy, there are a LOT of tricks to learn for a LOT of situations. Even the type of aircraft the two opponents are in will make a difference in the answer to your questions! Did you download the tracks?

If someone is making a pass on you and your Energy is similiar, then of course you can zoom up with them if they go that way. If your energy is lower than theirs, then you will be able to turn tighter and make them miss.

If the target you have the advantage over flies straight away from you at full throttle and you pursue him, he will gain energy while you are losing it.

If someone is on your six very close and at the same energy, then the only way you are going to save yourself is if you are very good at rolling, changing direction and changing speed while keeping an eye on them at the same time until you make them lose track of you or fly by you, it is not a fun place to be, but believe me if you are really good you can get out of any jam.

That is why in the recent thread about defending against an energy advantage, I alluded to the fact that it is nice to have, but it is very, very far from a guarantee of success if you are attacking a good pilot.

In fact energy advantage or not, if you attack a real Ace in any way, no matter what he is flying in, he will at the least escape, and very often will turn the tables on you and shoot you down.......http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

triad773
03-04-2010, 05:15 PM
I also did a rolling scissors vid, albeit not as complete as Jumo's.

See it http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1587380/5372585

Maybe you could find it useful, or not. See for yourself- it's not very long.

I haven't made many vids for IL-2 as I am lucky enough to find time to fly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Good luck and check your 6 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Triad