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Jumoschwanz
06-01-2004, 10:29 AM
formerly "the "dumbing down" of onlines servers for the Il2 series"

Yesterday I posted a thread about how an online pilot went on and on and on about how I "team killed" him from dead behind, on the deck, in the fog, after he had switched sides on a scripted server to my color team.

The server administrators response was to tell me not to worry, he and others were going to "fix" it so that it would not happen as often on their server.

To me this is bad news. I did not complain about the server settings in the thread, but someone's immature reaction to a "full-real" situation, who might have had better reason for thier reaction on a server with icons enabled.

Simply becuase the Il2 series of sims calls certain settings "realistic", and the community calls servers with all hard options enabled "full-real" does not mean they are saying that the sim played in this manner is a dead accurate rendition of how things were in WWII. Only someone far down the wrong side of the Bell Curve would make that leap.

But we do have undeniable facts about the air war in WWII. Such as:

1. A majority of those shot down in combat never saw it coming because they were bounced, or zoomed and boomed out of the sun or from some blind spot.
2. A very large percentage of aircraft were destroyed on the ground and while they were taking off and landing. The allies made it a point to harass the he11 out of Germany's airbases, and you bet the axis powers took any like opportunity for themselves.
3. Identifying targets was a problem. There are many reports of pilots and AAA gunners targeting friendly aircraft and shooting them down. I recently read an article on pacific allied pilots shooting at New Zealanders flying in P-40s! Definitely not similiar to a zero!
4. Navigation. Surely lot's of pilots had trouble finding where the heck the right ground target, or flight path was in the first place.
The point is that the servers online that have cockpit-on and no icons whatsoever, can replicate these four conditions much better than a wonder-woman/no cockpit server with nice big colored arrows to show you where, what and how far away the other aircraft on the server are. That is obvious.

These "full-real" servers are hard to find. They are a minority. The "arcade" ace, while surely being able to control his virtual craft as well as anyone, is not developing or using any tactics or abilities that would help him survive the three realities of air combat outlined above.

THis is what is so cool about the no-compromise, cockpit on/no views/no damn icons, servers on Hyperlobby and elsewhere. They are the servers on which a few virtual pilots have developed and honed a virtual version of the tactics and skills actually used in air combat in the era the sim is set in.

If those running online full-real and near full-real servers keep dumbing down their servers to cater to those who whine about taking friendly fire and being attacked on the ground, then they are taking away the environment in which the sim and it's virtual pilots can mature into everything this fabulous sim has to offer, and that is a piece of history.

I have learned, yes slowly, over the past three years, to appreciate full hard settings. It is not any harder to fly on these servers., it is just different. It takes a different set of skills. A set of skills that is at least a rendition of actual combat pilots.
It does not matter if you make mistakes(it shouldn't anyway), it does not matter if you get shot down over and over again like a fish in a barrel by the old timers or more likely by those who luck thier way onto your tail. As long as you are there you are a part of it. You get credit just for being there, using your brain to fight, and not quitting.

I want to have a place where I can be "vulched" by expert ground attack artists. I want to fly where the danger of friendly-fire and being bounced is always there. I want to learn and use tactics that were used in actual combat. A big tip of the hat to the minority of virtual pilots who have stuck by this form of combat in the Il2 series. And long live the server admin with the brains to see the light. S!

Jumoschwanz

P.S. The phrase "full-real" as used by the truly hard core full-real virtual pilots in the community means a server with cockpit on, absolutely no icons whatsoever, and absolutly no "views" enabled whatsoever. The enabling of any of these features compromises the incentive to learn combat skills.

[This message was edited by Jumoschwanz on Tue June 01 2004 at 10:28 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jumoschwanz on Tue June 01 2004 at 10:31 AM.]

Jumoschwanz
06-01-2004, 10:29 AM
formerly "the "dumbing down" of onlines servers for the Il2 series"

Yesterday I posted a thread about how an online pilot went on and on and on about how I "team killed" him from dead behind, on the deck, in the fog, after he had switched sides on a scripted server to my color team.

The server administrators response was to tell me not to worry, he and others were going to "fix" it so that it would not happen as often on their server.

To me this is bad news. I did not complain about the server settings in the thread, but someone's immature reaction to a "full-real" situation, who might have had better reason for thier reaction on a server with icons enabled.

Simply becuase the Il2 series of sims calls certain settings "realistic", and the community calls servers with all hard options enabled "full-real" does not mean they are saying that the sim played in this manner is a dead accurate rendition of how things were in WWII. Only someone far down the wrong side of the Bell Curve would make that leap.

But we do have undeniable facts about the air war in WWII. Such as:

1. A majority of those shot down in combat never saw it coming because they were bounced, or zoomed and boomed out of the sun or from some blind spot.
2. A very large percentage of aircraft were destroyed on the ground and while they were taking off and landing. The allies made it a point to harass the he11 out of Germany's airbases, and you bet the axis powers took any like opportunity for themselves.
3. Identifying targets was a problem. There are many reports of pilots and AAA gunners targeting friendly aircraft and shooting them down. I recently read an article on pacific allied pilots shooting at New Zealanders flying in P-40s! Definitely not similiar to a zero!
4. Navigation. Surely lot's of pilots had trouble finding where the heck the right ground target, or flight path was in the first place.
The point is that the servers online that have cockpit-on and no icons whatsoever, can replicate these four conditions much better than a wonder-woman/no cockpit server with nice big colored arrows to show you where, what and how far away the other aircraft on the server are. That is obvious.

These "full-real" servers are hard to find. They are a minority. The "arcade" ace, while surely being able to control his virtual craft as well as anyone, is not developing or using any tactics or abilities that would help him survive the three realities of air combat outlined above.

THis is what is so cool about the no-compromise, cockpit on/no views/no damn icons, servers on Hyperlobby and elsewhere. They are the servers on which a few virtual pilots have developed and honed a virtual version of the tactics and skills actually used in air combat in the era the sim is set in.

If those running online full-real and near full-real servers keep dumbing down their servers to cater to those who whine about taking friendly fire and being attacked on the ground, then they are taking away the environment in which the sim and it's virtual pilots can mature into everything this fabulous sim has to offer, and that is a piece of history.

I have learned, yes slowly, over the past three years, to appreciate full hard settings. It is not any harder to fly on these servers., it is just different. It takes a different set of skills. A set of skills that is at least a rendition of actual combat pilots.
It does not matter if you make mistakes(it shouldn't anyway), it does not matter if you get shot down over and over again like a fish in a barrel by the old timers or more likely by those who luck thier way onto your tail. As long as you are there you are a part of it. You get credit just for being there, using your brain to fight, and not quitting.

I want to have a place where I can be "vulched" by expert ground attack artists. I want to fly where the danger of friendly-fire and being bounced is always there. I want to learn and use tactics that were used in actual combat. A big tip of the hat to the minority of virtual pilots who have stuck by this form of combat in the Il2 series. And long live the server admin with the brains to see the light. S!

Jumoschwanz

P.S. The phrase "full-real" as used by the truly hard core full-real virtual pilots in the community means a server with cockpit on, absolutely no icons whatsoever, and absolutly no "views" enabled whatsoever. The enabling of any of these features compromises the incentive to learn combat skills.

[This message was edited by Jumoschwanz on Tue June 01 2004 at 10:28 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jumoschwanz on Tue June 01 2004 at 10:31 AM.]

ElAurens
06-01-2004, 10:47 AM
Agree 100%

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carguy_
06-01-2004, 10:52 AM
That`s how I feel too though I don`t think all FR pilots are best.89% of my kills are taken by surprise thus I have no pride that I won the fight.I did a good job to keep my virtual pilot alive.

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LilHorse
06-01-2004, 10:55 AM
Well, Jumo, I pretty much agree with just about everything you stated with the exception that I wouldn't call other-than-full-switch settings "dumbed down". It's not what I like, but I don't criticize those who fly them. I just have a problem when sombody starts some BS ****ging on full switch. Especially when FR servers are, as you mentioned, in the minority.

And that's why I'm glad you mentioned that FR servers are not necessarily harder than other servers, they're just different. If people just tried them more often and got the hang of them we might see more of them online. They just require a different mindset than other servers.

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-01-2004, 10:58 AM
Good points all. I prefer "almost" full-switch. Turn everything off...except minimap path. I'm such a bad navigator.

I'm sure it's more a matter of experience so, we've turned off the minimap path at greatergreen. Otherwise, it's still as hard as ever.

Cheers



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ZG77_Nagual
06-01-2004, 11:06 AM
Maybe I was on that server too jumo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I was in a p38 and failed miserably until I finally got a feel for the no icons situation. Personally I like external views on - and I'll tell you why - EYESTRAIN - I work with computers all day and searching out pixel-sized specs on a foggy server at twilight is pushing the envelope for me - then, of course, I was relentlessly victorious!!.

I'll probably allways have my server set with at least externals on - probably usually icons - simply because of the eyestrain (I'll also avoid setting my server to twilight with haze!!). That aside I agree with you - for me it's a practical matter. I won't fly cockpit off however.

Jumoschwanz
06-01-2004, 11:06 AM
Those are some good points. I didn't mean to say arcade servers are dumb, as they can be as much fun for someone as anything else can. But it is sometimes hard to find words to make a point and please everyone.
And the navigation aspect is another fun thing to learn on a full real server. Another reality that was surely a huge problem in actual combat in WWII. That would have to be the fourth reality of actual combat that one can experience on a full-hard server.

For Nagual, one long time virtual pilot in the computer industry got himself a large LCD monitor with 16ms response time from Dell. He said it greatly relieved eyestrain while playing the sim. S!

Jumoschwanz

ucanfly
06-01-2004, 11:15 AM
I love to play on full real servers, but agree I could do with a 50 in monitor.

ZG77_Nagual
06-01-2004, 11:26 AM
Currently I have a nice sony 19. The lcd monitors have a limited refresh rate - I can easily see 60hz and can tell when my monitor's been switched down even to 85!! Possibly when I have a more dedicated room with controllable background lighting and stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I've got a samsung 191t lcd here at work can't say it helps much with eyestrain though.

maxim26
06-01-2004, 11:31 AM
Absolutly agree. I think about 80% of online players play on servers with wonder woman view and externals. There are some really good servers like Vpilot, War Clouds, Greatergreen with realistic settings, but they always full. And they have some kind of icons. Even then icons sow up on sort distanses it eleminats the need for visual identification of a/c. And it adds a whole new experience to online gaming, then you need to get really close to find out what a/c is this.

tttiger
06-01-2004, 11:33 AM
I gotta agree with Nagual.

I'll fly with or without icons but if I fly too much without icons, my eyes are shot after a couple of hours. And I have a very good monitor. And very old eyes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That said, anybody who thinks there is anything real about any DF server is clear off the bell curve. By definition, they are all arcade (but fun, which is why people fly them, and what arcades are all about). Want "real"? Try Coops or virtual wars. Not full real but much closer.

This is the biggest BS rationalization for a team kill I've read yet. You screw up, whack a friendly and then go into two threads saying that makes it even MORE real.

It was YOUR responsibility to identify your target and you didn't. Want to play "full real"? At a minimum, your flying career would be over in the real world.

I don't think you're ready for "full real" yet http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Tue June 01 2004 at 11:21 AM.]

Hawgdog
06-01-2004, 12:50 PM
"The vanishing "full-real" online servers for the Il2 series"


I guess the people have spoken. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
"full real" ah...I guess it aint as fun as it used to be eh?
I am liking more and more cockpit\externals. When I get shot down, or sitting waiting- I like watching me buds get pounded, or tear it up, an extra set of eyes!

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When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

El Turo
06-01-2004, 01:05 PM
IMHO,

Minimap and limited icons are much more a representation of jumping into a virtual pilot's body than not. I have not spent weeks/months flying over the same terrain as to have each hill, mountain, village, road or other landmark memorized as would my virtual counterpart. I am limited by less than real-world resolutions and depth perceptions which make identifying enemy aircraft tedious and much more difficult online than it would be in "real life".

The Warclouds settings are, in this pilot's estimation, the best settings available for realism in online combat. The full-difficulty servers are interesting, but are just that.. more difficulty than realism.

$0.02

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
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I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

JG52Uther
06-01-2004, 01:12 PM
i have had a lot more fun out of FB since i started flying in full real servers,so much in fact,i dont like flying with externals anymore!i do admit though that i like limited icons,but i think that is more a case of inexperience on my part.i have flown with 'no icon' servers,and have even come back to base without firing a shot rather than hit a friendly.but i will progress to this as i get better.it is a steep learning curve,but i see FB as a sim,and not just an arcade game.if you like no cockpit,externals on,etc good for you,i started this way,but got bored very quickly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BpGemini
06-01-2004, 01:17 PM
"Full Real" servers will gain in numbers as the n00bs venture for more immersion. I'm just thankful I have the ability to host so I don't have to consider some half switch server.

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RedDeth
06-01-2004, 01:46 PM
nothing wrong with external views . otherwise why even do skins.full real games normally take about 4 hours to get a few kills. most dont want to take that much time. 95 percent of people who buy this game buy it for fun factor and shooting some planes down.

whether you like fullreal or not it obviously takes an ENTIRE evening to enjoy a session of fullreal. not true with normal DF servers on HL with externals. fullreal is not harder. it is easier. but its not as exciting. it can be considered more immersive but at the cost of time and no more need for vid cards.

if your seeing less fullreal its a sign of what people want. and this forums members are a small minority of people who own the game. which is why oleg doesnt change the game every time 100 forum members agree on something

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Slammin_
06-01-2004, 02:04 PM
I've been playing IL-2 since the very first weeks the original came out so I wouldn't call myself a n00b. I still prefer limited icons, really have no preference with external views, btu the majority seem to want it on, so I enable it.

Different settings do not necessarily equate to pilot skill or experence but moreso pilot preference. I prefer faster action and couldn't dream of returning to base with an empty tank of gas and a full ammo load, which does happen quite a bit on full switch servers.

I also rotate about a dozen or so maps and though I haven't timed it, I don't think any single map is up for more than an hour with a full load of players, so learning to navigate without your plane icon on the map would be pretty tough for most anyone I think.

I do understand all the hardships having full switch enabled simulates, I think, but again, having such a limited time to play, I prefer setting that allow me to GET KILLS FAST! or, GET KILLED FAST!

By the way, anyone that thinks having external view enabled makes it harder to bounce, trust me, it doesn't. The only time I would say it is remotely true is when there are only one or two pilots on the server. When there are several, you spend very little time 'outside' the pit, and if you have TIR, you probably never venture outside the pit, at least in my case, since hitting F2 defaults to a view that forces you to turn your head in strange ways with TIR.

Again, I do enjoy realism and am an avid fan of Falcon4 since the beginning too, but for IL-2 online, I play for fast action, which seems to require certain compromises be made in the settings, not to mention the eye strain and some of the other counterpoints already made by others in this thread.

Really, to each his own, but I don't think I'll ever prefer full switch in IL-2.

TacticalYak3
06-01-2004, 02:11 PM
As a community we have done these threads many times.

As a virtual pilot who enjoys a customized icon system, speedbar and map locater I actually fully agree with the intelligent post by the threadstarter.

And please don't wash your comments down mate, playing without any icons is harder, and you certainly must develop more skill.

Of course as you move from externals - open cockpit - no externals - closed cockpit - etc then one can better employ real life combat tactics and start approaching simulated WW2 flight combat.

For me, I'm slowly making that journey to "full real," just having such a wonderful time where I am right now (customized icons, speedbar & map locater) - and guilty free I might add! May be because of that I can respect and even agree with those who fly "full real" and the skill/enjoyment involved.

Regards,
TactS!

"Concealment and swiftness are the two principal elements of closing." (Colonel V. Dubrov, Soviet Air Force)

:FI:TacticalS!

BpGemini
06-01-2004, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
nothing wrong with external views . otherwise why even do skins.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a serious lack of immersion when you're able to jump out of your pit. Skins can be seen easily at your leisure in the tracks of your choice on "Full Real".


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
full real games normally take about 4 hours to get a few kills. most dont want to take that much time. 95 percent of people who buy this game buy it for fun factor and shooting some planes down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong. It doesn't take much longer than any other difficulty setting to find a fight once your experienced with "Full Real". If it takes you THAT long to kill someone in "Full Real" then it speaks volumes about the need to take your game to the next level when moving up from half switch.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
whether you like fullreal or not it obviously takes an ENTIRE evening to enjoy a session of fullreal. not true with normal DF servers on HL with externals. fullreal is not harder. it is easier. but its not as exciting. it can be considered more immersive but at the cost of time and no more need for vid cards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To say it takes an "Entire evening" to enjoy a session in FR is to not understand, even in the slightest, the enjoyment FR pilots have for their settings. They are enjoying the immersion from the moment they hit fly. It seems with each similar comment spewed by arcaders that the only enjoyment found in arcade mode is when the bullets are spraying or as a spectator. That's sounds boring as hell to me. Give me the excitment of Real immersion over arcade any day. Full Real IS harder than half switch anyone who say different is trying to make themselves feel better about the mode they play. Don't worry about it. If you like arcade mode then fine but don't make yourself look silly by actually trying to spurt out FR being less difficult than arcade.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
if your seeing less fullreal its a sign of what people want. and this forums members are a small minority of people who own the game. which is why oleg doesnt change the game every time 100 forum members agree on something<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're seeing the arcaders from CFS migrating over to IL-2. It's a flood of arcaders who haven't found an appreciation for real immersion yet. Seriously though the newbs have a different mindset for now. That's all. Just as they did when we all were n00bs to IL-2 (I used to play with externals too a long time ago).


My 2c:
Half Switch = Water gun fight
"Full Real" = Paintball gun fight

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EPP-Gibbs
06-01-2004, 02:14 PM
Personally, I enjoy the immersion of full-switch but I think it's incorrect to say that it's easier or harder than arcade settings; it's just different. In FS you can sneak up and bounce someone, one pass kill...easy! That's if you navigated to them accurately and positioned yourself carefully to avoid detection...hard!

In arcade you have little or no chance of doing that, and all the things that make life easier for you are also making life easier for your opponent, so it's still a level playing field. It's just a different sort of fight but equally difficult. Each to their own.

Cheers

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geetarman
06-01-2004, 02:33 PM
I fly them all, but the cockpit off/ext. on thing is beginning to get tiring. The more FR servers seem to level the playing field of the planes to refelect RL to a degree.

It matters not that the 109K is 10 mph faster than a P-51 (or what have you) in these servers.

On the other hand, look at defensive moves in an ext. on server. You just know when your chasing a bandit on his six, there's a very good chance that your opponent hit F3 and is flying his plane with a "Linda Blair" perspective, countering your every move! You can tell this just by watching him!

One server I went on hit on an interesting idea. The server had cockpit on and no externals or icons for the planes. However, it did have map icons.

It was great! Sort of like ground radar vectoring you into the area of the fight and no more. It was up to the pilot to id the bandits during the fight without the aid of an icon.

What it did was preserve a good sense of realism, while not unduly dragging out the game time with everyone flying around trying to locate each other. Remember, the map icons don't indicate altitude. So, you really had to ratchet up your awareness as you approached the enemy.

I found this set-up to be very well balanced and led to a great fight.

Teufel_Eldritch
06-01-2004, 02:38 PM
Not a hard & fast rule but a general rule....

The more difficult the server settings, the fewer pilots will join the server.

YANKEE ROSE
-----------
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Jumoschwanz
06-01-2004, 03:04 PM
Yea, in WWII if I shot down a friendly surely I would not be flying anymore most likely.

And like most threads this one gets turned into something it was not meant to be.


Friendly kills are a fact of full hard settings that will not go away any more than deaths from friendly fire will go away in Iraq or any other war, or mistakes will be engineered out of the human race.

The mind with the small picture will continue to call those who friendly kill "noobs". The mind with the big picture knows that the four challenges/facts full hard servers have in common with actual air combat in WWII, Navigation, ID of enemy/friendly aircraft, the surprise bounce, and ground attack, are all what actually makes the server "full-real" in the first place.
So it makes no sense to join one, and then whine about the inevitable events that will be a part of the full-real experience.

If you want a server with no challenges in ground attack, navigation, surprise bounces/aerial attacks or aircraft identification, then go find a server that suites your tastes.
Don't, by any means, join a full real server that I am on, then go on an endless whining tirade about what a noob I am, when I friendly kill you, shoot you taking off or landing, or bounce you and shoot you to pieces without a "dogfight". Yes we have all heard endless whining on servers when these aces are destroyed in these manners.

Flying full real is an art. So is flying arcade or playing Pac-Man. NO one art is more noble or better or worse than another. They are just different that is all. The full real server just happens to have a few challenges in common with the tactics and skills of actual air combat in WWII. Being what I enjoy I vote for the existence of full real servers and a full real flying population by joining and supporting full real servers.
That is what this thread is about. Please don't turn it into a this is better than that flame-fest. Start your own thread for your pet topics. S!

Jumoschwanz

Lav69
06-01-2004, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
nothing wrong with external views . otherwise why even do skins.full real games normally take about 4 hours to get a few kills. most dont want to take that much time. 95 percent of people who buy this game buy it for fun factor and shooting some planes down.

whether you like fullreal or not it obviously takes an ENTIRE evening to enjoy a session of fullreal. not true with normal DF servers on HL with externals. fullreal is not harder. it is easier. but its not as exciting. it can be considered more immersive but at the cost of time and no more need for vid cards.

if your seeing less fullreal its a sign of what people want. and this forums members are a small minority of people who own the game. which is why oleg doesnt change the game every time 100 forum members agree on somethin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Full real is less exciting???!!!! Come on man. Take off shoot someone down or get shot down, over and over. Boy how exciting. No mystery, no getting jumped cause you can see each other from 4 Klicks out, boy how exciting. Deathmatch, I mean DF servers get boring as hell.

_______________
I'm fixin to.

Baron_Kiptofen
06-01-2004, 03:09 PM
"Full Real": I can sneak up on enemies and shoot them down before they spot me. If they avoid the initial attack, if I can refind them first, I get another chance: If not, I can usually just dive and run off... I can fly around happily unmolested for ages, ground pound away quite merrily... until someone spots my tiny dot on their monitor. All this, and I don't suffer from the effects of G forces, except that my screen changes color occasionally... My bottom isn't sore from hours of vibrating aeroplane, and I can take food and drink up in the cockpit with me! Woo hoo!

"Wonder-woman" view, externals etc: I see someone. They see me too. They then proceed to get on my 6, because they can fly their 'plane better, and know how to perform the correct tactics for the situation. I then can't get them off my 6, because I don't have any real awareness of defensive movements. Trying to hide under their nose doesn't work. I die, over and over. If by some chance I get on their 6, if they know anything of E fighting, flap usage etc, they'll escape, because I can't follow them, or with my noob awareness, I stall or lawndart. With F6, there's no hiding from my own ignorance.

Thus I pronounce "Full Real" much easier for noobs like me. Ahh... the joys of subjective generalisation! (I realise the thread's starter didn't intend to do this, just wanted to add a different opinion to all the usual FR PR)

Maj_Death
06-01-2004, 03:33 PM
I havn't been able to find any full real servers for a long time so I started hosting them myself again. Trouble is then no one joins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. I guess I need to do like crazyivan and make it a set time and announce on the forum.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maj_Death here, Stab.I/JG1Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them atmy COOP page (http://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm)

I/JG1 Oesau is recruiting axis pilots who prefer to fly maximum realism. We accept both veterans and rookies. We fly in VEF2, VOW and may join other online wars in the future. Go to our forums at http://www.jg1-oesau.org/ for more details and to apply.
http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Skulls/Skull-06.gif

Yum_Yum
06-01-2004, 04:00 PM
Hello http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif,

I use a variety of servers and settings and never have any problem finding and playing in a game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

I have seen countless posts here where people prefer to use full difficulty yet they are the ones in the empty servers and no friends to play with ???.
I used BM's server a few times and it was very nice but for the majority of the time I was the only player present, or a member of the BM squad usually joined in, at most I only ever seen 5 players present at any one time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

SP@RX warclouds server was another (before present day). I was the only one who used it on countless occassions, and every time I was the only one thier despite posting times when I would use it ???.

I also use Crazy Ivans too which is always full when I see it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

For more variety people should be a little more flexable with their settings of choice (I am).
If no one playes it your way make your own "full difficulty" server ... you may still be alone but at least it will be your way.

I don't believe so many people have no one to play with http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

crazyivan1970
06-01-2004, 04:25 PM
I wasn`t sure if VFC Dedicated is needed... I thought there was enough servers that run FR or close to it. If you guys and gals needed it i can run it from 8pm eastern till next morning - no biggie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Red_Russian13
06-01-2004, 04:43 PM
To each his own. Depending on my mood (and time) I like playing all varieties of "full-difficulty". I like what Jumoschwanz said about each being an art, and that no one was more noble than the other. Unique perspective in this forum.

Ivan - You're a swell guy. Thanks for the offer! Very fine gesture.

Red Russian

GAU-8
06-01-2004, 05:25 PM
like red russian,

i too, enjoy mixing up several servers.. i find neither one BETTER than the other, just depends on my mood, and i go from there.

BSS_CUDA
06-01-2004, 05:36 PM
I love full real servers and prefer to fly them, what I hate is the IDIOTS that fly on them and won't ID a contact before blowing it out of the air, I was flying in a P38 on the allied side with all allied planes and some MORON in a P51 shot me down. I saw him and didnt think anything about it. allied plane allied side no sweat right? guess he didnt like my paint job or something. maybe I forgot to shower that morning? I dunno, my question is HTF DO YOU MISS ID A 38????? I could understand another P51 from a distance they could be mistakin for a 109. but a 38????? My word people look at your contact before you pull the trigger!!!!!!

*****************************
BSS_CUDA
Co-Founder of my family
Black Sheep Tactical Officer
USN retired

http://img42.photobucket.com/albums/v129/CUDA97045/CUDA_.jpg
blacksheep214.com (http://blacksheep214.com)
That was some of the best flying I've seen yet! right up to the part where you got killed.
you NEVER NEVER leave your wingman.

Jester : TopGun

06-01-2004, 05:55 PM
We found over the years the best compromise, after all it is a Simulation.
Give them an outside view, people do enjoy the inherant graphical scenery of the Game, and watching others dog fight.
Do not allow the no cockpit view, they shoot from inside the cockpit using the gun sight.
Allow them padlock, because its limited these days, that way you do not need icons to identify the enemy.
Allow speed bar and mini map path.

In the mission description you can tell them the target areas on the map so you do not need to allow map icons, but they can still find their way around the map with mini map path.

Because they do not have the no cockpit view, they have to break pad lock to shoot from inside the cockpit, before re engaging padlock inside the cockpit.
The more experienced PC pilots who know the limits of their aircraft, can still get the drop on an opponent that has them padlocked from their cockpit.
Its amazing the number of servers that allow both padlock and Icons, you really do not need icons to identify the enemy if you have enabled padlock.

Also because padlock has a limited range these days, where is the need to allow limited icons at all?

GAU-8
06-01-2004, 06:12 PM
while i applauded you for your maturity to not spew out a single name, all over the boards you kept tact in your delivery..then said this

quote

"Please don't water/dumb down (EDIT) to cater to the average HL pilot. Because the average HL pilot is not that smart or that good"


like in YOUR case...shooting friendlies????

Locust_
06-01-2004, 06:49 PM
Full hardness is great but I realy think you tend to underestimate how hard non fullhardness can be, when all views are inabled that mean they can see you coming wich means killing them is that much harder, dont get me wrong Im a fullreal/hardness flyer myself but bolth styles present differant challanges if you dont belive it go into an "arcade" server & feal the wrath of blod thirsty noobs who want nothing more than to pop yer **** http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/p38loco1sig.jpg

Bearcat99
06-01-2004, 06:52 PM
I enjoy the closed pit.. I dont mind the icons.. I can do without them buit i dont mind them.. externals & minimap? A must for me.. I like looking at the action and the skin after/if I land and navigation? I just dont have the time to learn these maps. As I said earlier I dont mind icons when the pit is closed because I realize everyone doesnt have a 9800Pro on a 2500Barton OCd with 1G of DDR400 RAM...and believe it or not.. there are still some guys who have a 15" monitor!! But I hear ya..

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

USE THAT X45 STICK AS A BUTTON BAY!

carguy_
06-01-2004, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj_Death:
I havn't been able to find any full real servers for a long time so I started hosting them myself again. Trouble is then no one joins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. I guess I need to do like crazyivan and make it a set time and announce on the forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,plz do.And make it a winter map plz.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Osiris_X9
06-01-2004, 07:11 PM
If you are looking for a extra smooth full real server( well actually mini map and speed bar are enabled), check out the Birds of Prey server. Its growing in popularity with the full real crowd and is the smoothest server period. All you full real Jocks now have a home you can come to. The only problem used to be is that allot of people who claim to be a full real pilot are not flying full real because they cant find a server and when they do they are emty. Well there is no excuse anymore. Come visit the Birds of Prey Server on HL there is always someone for you to fly with. All other pilots are welcome to come check out the server too and we will be more than happy to have you. Salute to all

RAF238thOsiris

Jumoschwanz
06-01-2004, 07:24 PM
"The average Hyperlobby pilot is not that smart or that good". I said that. And I include myself. I look at any group whithin our society as a microcosm of the whole society.
And when you take the average world citizen, who is actively taking part in all the conflicts, wars and bickering between political and religious groups in the world, who is actively taking part in the destruction of the environment that their own life and future depends on, who spends thier lives searching for meaning outside themselves and never finding it, no they are not that smart or that good at all.
The conflicts and injustices that are the main body of the world news is the macrocosm of each individual that exists in it. We are not separate from the horrors around the world, we are those horrors.
Here and there a four leaf clover sprouts. To those that see and recognize these special clovers it is always a dissapointment to see someone come by and rip a leaf off to make them fit the mold, to make them in their view "better".
No thought exists anywhere outside it's thinker. So anything that is part of the universal truth that is everything can have nothing to do with any thought.
Now I am getting into some deep $hit I did not want to get into here. Is it time for this thread to die and get pushed to oblivion with the art of full real and the rest of the four leaf clovers?
Thanks all for your input. It would be cool if someone who is an expert at full-real settings like Rel or Rall from HL would start a thread like Ivan's server thread and describe and define the "art of full-real". Good idea?
S! and we will see you on HL!

Jumoschwanz

Jumoschwanz
06-01-2004, 07:27 PM
Birds of Prey is smooth as silk. I never saw, from my 56k vantage point, so many pings under 100. Almost all of them except for mine and two or three others out of a full boat. And all were under 200. Great job whoever set that one up!

Jumoschwanz

Hawgdog
06-01-2004, 07:27 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Jumoschwanz
06-01-2004, 07:38 PM
Personally, Hawgdog, I like hitting myself on the head with a hammer because it feels sooooooooooooooo good everytime I stop!

Jumoschwanz

Slammin_
06-01-2004, 08:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Birds of Prey is smooth as silk. I never saw, from my 56k vantage point, so many pings under 100. Almost all of them except for mine and two or three others out of a full boat. And all were under 200. Great job whoever set that one up!

Jumoschwanz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm still not certain, reading your original post, what your intent here is, but as was said, we have been through this before. As far as settings go, I really feel threads like this do nothing for those of us that host. Matter of fact, the best settings to host with came from common sense AND personal preference - War Clouds - and I do need to ask SparX what those settings are one of these days. Maybe I will mimic them, but if my personal preference differs, I won't.

Really, and I think I've already said this; it IS all about personal preference. There is such a variety of gracious hosts on HL that offer settings that should satisfy every one of us, though as was mentioned, many of the FR are empty most of the time. Good with the bad I guess. Maybe once IL-2 starts to fade out, some of those lessor used servers will have activity? Btw, those lessor used servers do seem to be full switch.

Which brings me to another point; actually a couple of points; Settings - Difficulty Settings, are not all you are talking about I'm sure. I'm just speakng from the DF arena at this point since most of what you've stated seems to be aimed at DF servers. Kind of a funky situation because you can get so much of this IMMERSION from coop servers regardless of the settings. But since we are talking DF servers, I implore you to examine the very nature of what 'DF' means, and then you may understand, the next time you join one, why the settings are as they are.

I've already experimented enough to know that what we see here on this forum is not indicative of what we have online. I do try to nudge things towards what I see here, but I also know that to run a server according to what is said here will = empty server.

Hopefully nobody wil start a rebuttal thread because of this one and then confuse even more new hosts, but if they do, I think I will participate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

brimigus
06-01-2004, 08:04 PM
guess the settings are just to hard for the run of the mill players.The reason i dont play the full real servers is the fact that the virtual cockpit only setting is like having 20/70 vision and blinders on.Last time i played,no icons .Just about as diffacult as it can be, there were enemys above me makings 2000 meter dives on me,how they could even see me makes me wonder if they cheat or just fly with the gunsight close view enabled.I dont need my hobby to become chore.Plus I use the flyby so much to give the games an action element that seems very lacking in cockpit only servers.One thing for sure,it seems that some of the new planes have much better modeled cockpits with smaller A pillars and seem to have a better 3d feel to them.But you all ways gotta call BS when u get shot down by a FW ,cmon the sprit of Saint Louis has better outside visability.

Lizkinq
06-01-2004, 08:08 PM
Just be happy Oleg gave us the possability for both extremes and the infinite variations in between.

Slammin_
06-01-2004, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lizkinq:
Just be happy Oleg gave us the possability for both extremes and the infinite variations in between.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, only he forgot to tell us about the folks that will insist we hurt our eyes, or diminish our enjoyment of this sim in effort to be REAL WWII pilots.

Really, this thread is starting to piss me off, as the ones that we've already typed so much at before.

Anyone like BBQ'd dead horse?

Lizkinq
06-01-2004, 08:29 PM
No one insists, my friend, join or create, it is all your choice.

Slammin_
06-01-2004, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lizkinq:
No one insists, my friend, join or create, it is all your choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, as I've said, frustration settling in. I've, for the last several months, only play on the server that I host. So when I see these pointless server setting bashing, n00b naming posts, time after time, I get a little PO'd since they seem to always be started by:

1. Someone that won't host.
2. Someone that has no appreciation of those that do host.
3. Someone only looking for what THEY want.
4. A fight.

Not to hijack things, but this thread does beg for it, so I will only say that to friggin EACH HIS OWN! There was no need to start yet another thread bashing how we each decide to enjoy this sim, and declaring those that do not play it right as n00bs, again.

Sheeze, get a grip!

Zeroneg1
06-01-2004, 09:13 PM
It is true that it is harder and harder to find servers with 'full real' or 'all full difficulty' settings to the max. Wanna know how hard? try to setup a dogfight server on HL with full difficulty (no externals,no minimap,no icons or no speed bar)and you'll watch each and every dogfight and coop gets filled up while you sit there and wait for nothing.

I do fly War Clouds,Birds of Prey and GreaterGreen and the VVF and VEF(when they let me in http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and fly with them). You might want to do your own COOP with full realism/difficulty set. I know since I have seen you online since I've flown online games with you since I recall the name.

I do not feel bad tho if i get shot down by somebody with full realism/difficulty set instead of wondering if my opponent was aiming the guns at me using the 'wonder woman view'. That's just plain crazy! here you are trying to fly a plane and manually scan the skies while trying to do acrobatics and evasive maneuvers and there is your bogey on your six that sees everything and anything except the hair on his or her back http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Zeroneg1 on Tue June 01 2004 at 10:29 PM.]

Lizkinq
06-01-2004, 09:24 PM
Excuse my lack of pity, but I haven't flown for a year or so. No co-ops. I don't get mad though, but I sure do miss them.

Slammin_
06-01-2004, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lizkinq:
Excuse my lack of pity, but I haven't flown for a year or so. No co-ops. I don't get mad though, but I sure do miss them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hang in there bro. I've graduated my settings from the so-called Wonder Woman settings to the so called arcade settings over the past few weeks. Do note that with each change, my server became less busy but, I also expected that.

I really do think it would do a LOT for you folks that start threads like this to indicate exactly what TYPE of server you are talking about. The settings on a server may be taylored for the type of gameplay expected on the server.

If the server is a DF server, then do expect some personalization of the settings. I dunno. Maybe i'm just tired of the 'SETTINGS BASHING' threads.

Be glad hosts are willing to host. Be extra glad that those hosting with no customers, still host. Be especially glad those that host, read these posts in hope of using settings that you all want, attempt to do so.

Be wary of confusing us! PLEASE!

Red_Russian13
06-01-2004, 09:54 PM
I'm glad you all host. I'd love to come and play, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Only just started online play, and pretty much only on UBI. I don't know if I'd fare very well any where else.

But anyway, thanks all for hosting. I'd host, but I don't know how to go about that either. Plus, no one would join, and I don't know how much of a commitment it would be. Guess I'll have to read up on it...

Red Russian

VFS-22_SPaRX
06-01-2004, 09:55 PM
Slammin,

Take a breather bud http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. We both know that this will get nowhere. We have both been tangled in these types of threads many times. But just to back some points that Slammin has made. Server admins put a lot of effort into keeping servers up and running. There is a lot more involved to running a 24/7 server then just clicking on the "start" button. Every admin chooses his settings based on what he wants to fly in. Most of us make concessions on our settings to appease the masses quite often, so why can you not make some yourself. But it always boils down to one thing, we are not going the put the effort into a server that we will not fly on. So please guys, stop bashing servers for their settings, enjoy them. If you do not care for the settings, then either create your own server or find one that suites your tastes.

Slammin, grab a beer, a smoke, and go relax on the porch a bit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I'll cya in the nut house soon enough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Make sure you keep my bed turned down for me.

S~

SPaRX

Slammin_
06-01-2004, 10:21 PM
Haha! I got beer! Tis the only time I seem to grab a hold of a thread here too! Also, being on vacation has quite a bit to do with my activity right now as well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Really though, I know full well my server would not be empty right now if I enabled no/cockpit and external views.

Everytime I increase difficulty settings, my server becomes more empty.

Bottom line, if I can't play on my own server, I will play on another that has the settings I like. There are servers here that have the settings I like, though they may not have the maps I prefer. No biggie. I think, as time goes by, we will all meet on common ground. hard to judge for certain, but I do envision HUGE and dynamic online play where fast play and strategy and honed skill all meld together.

Whats we currently have is settable circumstances that enable/enhance the above.

Really, I do got Beer! but I am very into this thread. Hopefully not pissing anyone off either.

I host. Have for a long time. I am very interested in what would make a better environment, at least in the DF arena.

VFS-22_SPaRX
06-01-2004, 10:32 PM
Yes Slammin, i watch these threads closely as well. More feedback you get, the easier it is to make a decision. One thing i have found that holds true almost 100%, The servers settings needs to be complimented by the servers content. Hope this makes sense. Content being maps, mission, objectives, base separation and so on. When you find the happy medium between those two things, you have a Great server then. I am not saying yours is not a great server. I had many many enjoyable evenings on your server.

Sorry if we are hijacking this thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

S~
SPaRX

Jumoschwanz
06-01-2004, 10:46 PM
I think if those who add to this thread take the time to read the thread starters parts, and some others, they will see that it was not supposed to be a divisive thread at all. Ideally just an examination of the full-real phenomenon. So maybe those who have anything like us vs. them can go back and edit it into something constructive? We will try and get better at this thread thing as we go along.

Jumoschwanz

609IAP_Recon
06-01-2004, 10:56 PM
Good post.

personally, anything but FR ruins the immersion for me -eyestrain or not, if I was hitting F6 with padlock I'd probably give up the game.

Try joining a war, they are mostly FR.

I'll try to host more for you Jumo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

609IAP_Recon
06-01-2004, 11:00 PM
lol Slammin:

"I've graduated my settings from the so-called Wonder Woman settings to the so called arcade settings over the past few weeks"

wow - nice move up - keep going and you'll be hosting a full real server soon as well!

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

Slammin_
06-01-2004, 11:30 PM
I'll just STFU. A few veterans told me a long time ago that my server is great for a non-FR server. After I realized why, I totally agreed, and have been slowly easing my way towards the FS settings. Slowly, as in adding map content with multiple objectives and obstacles, and have incorporated maps from the community as well, and slowly adjusting server settings.

As time passed, and I'd learned some, I also realized that there is no way in he77 I could ever run a serious FR server; FR being correct locales, planes, times, and of course the FS settings etc., which does indeed require some effort and research.

SparX, I certainly hope that:

"The servers settings needs to be complimented by the servers content. Hope this makes sense."

That you don't think I'm confused. Of course it makes sense! I try different things. I ask for advice. I go out on a limb.

If it don't work, it does not mean I don't understand. But I am not ready to totally copy what someone else does either.

This is all a hobby for me. I enjoy these flight sims we have. Probably more than most

I have no ego to apease, nor will I ever require monentary payment for what I choose to do here.

When you hear me speak, it is either because I am drunk, or trying to convince you that I am not drunk.

hey, should I make that my motto?!

Slammin_
06-01-2004, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
I think if those who add to this thread take the time to read the thread starters parts, and some others, they will see that it was not supposed to be a divisive thread at all. Ideally just an examination of the full-real phenomenon. So maybe those who have anything like us vs. them can go back and edit it into something constructive? We will try and get better at this thread thing as we go along.

Jumoschwanz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOU are the thread starter, and if YOU re-read what YOU posted, YOU should see how much of a bash you toss at the non FR crowd.

Trust me! Go back and read what you posted as the Thread Starter. You will see that all you wanted to do was incite.

L8tr

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2004, 01:28 AM
Full Real and Wonder Woman both take a different style of play and a different set of skills.

Me for one...I don't mind either setting. It is the other flyers that are in the game that make it for me.
Though with Full Real, the eyestrain is enormous

RedDeth
06-02-2004, 02:08 AM
bpGemini im glad your response to my thoughts werent biased, argumentative or offensive. lol. your ideas are just those . ideas .they are your preferences. they are not better, more cool, or correct. and my thoughts are not wrong.

you can disagree if you wish but if your going to call someone wrong provide proof.

i can and do fly full real . its pretty easy to fly around for four hours and not die once. try that in slammins or another HL server. full real is easy to stay alive and hide. it doesnt take much skill to dodge and evade in fullreal either. and all the kills i get are from people that never see me. all this adds up to easier.

how is fullreal harder? grab a track ir 3 and your all set to go.

try keeping a 10 to 1 kill to death ratio in a good hl server with cockpit off.

every fullreal promoter always says it takes more skill for fullreal and they jump in arcade and die 50 times in a row. but a good arcade pilot jumps in fullreal and no problem.

i wasnt knocking fullreal in my first post just stating some reasons for more non fullreal servers. this obviosly offended bpgemini and for that i truly am not sorry .

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1083458407_knightsmove-taylor.jpg

Greenwidth
06-02-2004, 02:30 AM
Is this for the benefit of new forum members?

The horse has long since decomposed - this is now paleontology. Fossil Flogging....

Fly the settings you like. Surely that's the point of having different settings. If you can't find a game - host one.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/greenwidth/Greenwidth.jpg

tttiger
06-02-2004, 03:04 AM
Jumo,

I know I'm repeating myself, but, bottom line, your whole original post is nothing but you rationalizing why you killed a friendly...

He was on the deck...

It was in the fog...

He had just switched sides...(I don't get that one at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Friendly fire is a real hazard...

Blah...blah...blah...

Fact: You got lazy and careless and killed your buddy. You were so eager for a few few points you just blasted away.

Why don't you just be a stand-up guy and admit you screwed up? Show a little remorse.

We all do it. But we don't all sit around and make up excuses for it. Most of us just say, "My bad, I'm really sorry" and move on.

If it makes you feel any better, you're right. It really did happen. Here's a "for real" (as you would call it) story by an 8th AF pilot (they were still flying P-47s) who shot down the top ace in the 9th AF flying a P-51:

***

Don Whinnem B-17 Escort Mission
352nd FG ETO -

We were escorting B-17s. I was flying Al Marshall's wing. We got into a mixup and got separated from the Group. I looked over my left shoulder and saw something coming in. I called , 'Al, there's a bandit coming in at 7 o'clock high'.

We did a scissors. Al broke left, I broke right and when I completed my circle it looked like Al was being shot up by an ME109 I put the throttle to the firewall, poured on the water injection and got on his tail. When I got within 200 yards I started firing and got strikes all over the plane. But as soon as he was hit he broke up sharply, and only then did I see the square wingtips and square tail. It was a P-51!

I called our Group Commander, Col. Joe Mason, a real tiger, and said 'Sir,there are some P-51s in the area'. He came back, real caustic, 'The hell they are. They're 109s. Shoot the bastards down'. 'But sir, one of them is a P-51 and I just shot it up pretty good'. Silence.

Well, I located the P-51 again, and by this time he knew we were 47s, so I pulled up alongside to take a look. I didn't know it was Glenn Eagleston, but he looked like he was hurting. There was nothing I could do, so I left him and joined our formation.

I got part of the story later that day and the rest of it 3 months later. It went all the way up to the 8th Fighter Command Hqs......A p-47 had shot up a P-51. Col Mason had to go up there and explain it to the brass. But our story held up. The P-51 was 150 miles off copurse, and his camera film showed him shooting at a P-47.

The trouble was that an FW190 and a P-47 have the same silhouette. You have to see the planview to see the elliptical wings.

Three months later I crash landed near a 9th AF base, and was taken to their hospital with a banged up nose and forehead. Eagleton was stationed there and they knew my name from the flap at Hqs, so he looked me up and we drank beer at the club and flew the mission all over again.

Eagleton swore he was shooting at a FW190, and even my camera film looked like I was shooting at a 109 to our Intelligence Officer. Glenn said the only thing that saved him was the armor shield behind the cockpit.. The bullets came in over his shoulder, hit the instrument panel, knocking most of them out.. When he got to his base it was weathered in and he was forced to bail out. His instruments were too shot up to try it.

And that's how Don Whinnem shot down Glenn Eagleston - something no German pilot was able to do. Glenn ended up with 20 1/2 confirmed victories, tops in the 9th AF. Whinnem was no slouch either. He didn't get credit for that P-51, but he got enough 109s and 190s to make him an Ace.

****

Now, my question is, did you buy the guy you shot down a beer (virtual, of course http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) afterward or just make up a whole song and dance about how "real" it was to shoot him down?

I bet I know the answer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Geeze,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Wed June 02 2004 at 02:36 AM.]

Stalker58
06-02-2004, 04:14 AM
Jumoschwanz one of the best post I read on this board ever.

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

WTE_Ibis
06-02-2004, 04:29 AM
Winger http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Ibissix-schmile.JPG
www.uploadit.org/Ibissix/MOSSIE.jpg

Stalker58
06-02-2004, 04:50 AM
For me FR servers are way to go, I did't buy this sim to wear off my F6 key, be sure. I have had it on my HD because I want to experience }to some degree) how it was to be a WWII combat pilot.Fighting in WWII war, just like on FR servers was not about aerobatics but about killing enemies, no matter whether on the ground, while taking off or bouncing them. Only really crazy WWII pilot would dogfihgt low and slow how often seen on the *other* servers.And it's thrilling too, you bounced a plane and missed, he escape into clouds and you ae thinking and sweating: where is he?, has he a wingman? was it trap? and hell was it even enemy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

JG27_Dacripler
06-02-2004, 05:12 AM
This thread is ultra-n0Ober and is full of spam.. Please avoid as much as possible !!

On a friendly note:
If you are unhappy with the hosts decisions of settings. Make your own and quit your babbling. Otherwise, your trolling will get you nowhere.

Scen
06-02-2004, 11:36 AM
To each his own. Name your poison...

Sheesh.

Bewolf
06-02-2004, 11:51 AM
I personally just need very short ranged padlock with no icons to simply have my hands free to do some gas and trim adjustments. Else i am happy.

Just my two cents.

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.