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SeaFireLIV
01-15-2005, 08:38 AM
Well, since circumstances has given me little time to fly online, i do most of it offline.

Been flying theMig3 (2xshvak) over the Crimea and in the latest mission been tackling numerous 109s. It`s pretty tricky since outturning them doesn`t work very well (I`ll usually vertically dogfight in the Mig or just run). This is pretty historically accurate as these early Migs wern`t very manoueverable.

But I digress...

I had one situation where a 109 latched onto my six, he was very close so instead of trying climb (which works real well with the Mig) I turned while simultaneously calling for help.

My rookie Wingman got on to the bogey`s six and was firing, but I noticed he was just missing; partly because I was also turning hard and cos he was a rookie. Interestingly, the 109 simply ignored him continuing to chase me (usually, this would be enough to cause him to break). The 109 was fixated on me, but not shooting, maybe waiting for a better shot.

So, I thought, can I try a tactic that would normally work online? I levelled out and flew straight while barrell-rolling, hoping my wingman would actually have a better chance to hit. Tracer shot past my cockpit, but I refused to increase speed. Then I heard, "Got him!" My wingman had shot the bogey down! AI-Human cooperation! Classic.

Also, in the same mission was doing a lot of dogfighting through thick clouds (I have full clouds on). Now as far as we know, AI can`t see through clouds, but in this mission as well as the previous one which was in cloud, I`ve not been shot down. It`s not that I`ve been avoiding cloud and there`s been up to 12 109s and 8 or so Migs flying about, but I never seem to get locked on in cloud in 3.03.

In the open I can guarantee a 109 will get on my six.

Is there some kind `semi-blind` thing going on with AI vs the Human in cloud? I really get the feeling that AI seems less able to attack the Human in these conditions...

Anyway, just to finish off, my pristine Mig and Wingman were flying low returning to base. I overflew a grass Luftwaffe runway that I didn`t see. The one solitary AAA gunner fired a few shots at me and just as I turned to avoid he made a slight hit in my wing. I immediately caught fire and was forced to bail. Then I was captured and horribly tortured.

What a pain, that mission lasted at least half an hour.

SeaFireLIV
01-15-2005, 08:38 AM
Well, since circumstances has given me little time to fly online, i do most of it offline.

Been flying theMig3 (2xshvak) over the Crimea and in the latest mission been tackling numerous 109s. It`s pretty tricky since outturning them doesn`t work very well (I`ll usually vertically dogfight in the Mig or just run). This is pretty historically accurate as these early Migs wern`t very manoueverable.

But I digress...

I had one situation where a 109 latched onto my six, he was very close so instead of trying climb (which works real well with the Mig) I turned while simultaneously calling for help.

My rookie Wingman got on to the bogey`s six and was firing, but I noticed he was just missing; partly because I was also turning hard and cos he was a rookie. Interestingly, the 109 simply ignored him continuing to chase me (usually, this would be enough to cause him to break). The 109 was fixated on me, but not shooting, maybe waiting for a better shot.

So, I thought, can I try a tactic that would normally work online? I levelled out and flew straight while barrell-rolling, hoping my wingman would actually have a better chance to hit. Tracer shot past my cockpit, but I refused to increase speed. Then I heard, "Got him!" My wingman had shot the bogey down! AI-Human cooperation! Classic.

Also, in the same mission was doing a lot of dogfighting through thick clouds (I have full clouds on). Now as far as we know, AI can`t see through clouds, but in this mission as well as the previous one which was in cloud, I`ve not been shot down. It`s not that I`ve been avoiding cloud and there`s been up to 12 109s and 8 or so Migs flying about, but I never seem to get locked on in cloud in 3.03.

In the open I can guarantee a 109 will get on my six.

Is there some kind `semi-blind` thing going on with AI vs the Human in cloud? I really get the feeling that AI seems less able to attack the Human in these conditions...

Anyway, just to finish off, my pristine Mig and Wingman were flying low returning to base. I overflew a grass Luftwaffe runway that I didn`t see. The one solitary AAA gunner fired a few shots at me and just as I turned to avoid he made a slight hit in my wing. I immediately caught fire and was forced to bail. Then I was captured and horribly tortured.

What a pain, that mission lasted at least half an hour.

SithSpeeder
01-15-2005, 10:07 AM
Playing more offline lately than online, I always assumed from previous posters that the AI ignored clouds (i.e., they were invisible to them and hence me running to a cloud offered zero protection).

But you said <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now as far as we know, AI can`t see through clouds <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...so that's news to me and an added level of realism to the game, if true.

So, in short, I have nothing to contribute to this thread, but I am watching it carefully!

* _54th_Speeder *

tsisqua
01-15-2005, 10:20 AM
Seafire,
I agree with you that something has definitely been done here with the clouds. (I think that you meant ai can see through clouds, didn't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Anyway, it doesn't work every time, but something in the code has to be different. I think it seems that the ai, instead of becoming blind, becomes less efficient in the clouds. Bearcat posted his findings about this, and I did too, but I don't think that anyone believed us.

Great game story, BTW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Tsisqua

Bearcat99
01-15-2005, 10:52 AM
I noticed that too.. The AI and the sim itself seem greatly improved. I noticed the cloud thin in 3.02.. I think I even osted on it.

WUAF_Badsight
01-15-2005, 02:17 PM
AI havent been shooting me thru clouds since AEP when it was worked on . . .

& they break less when your sneaking up from low 6

WUAF_Badsight
01-15-2005, 02:17 PM
AI havent been shooting me thru clouds since AEP when it was worked on . . .

& they break less when your sneaking up from low 6 than

WUAF_Badsight
01-15-2005, 02:18 PM
AI havent been shooting me thru clouds since AEP when it was worked on . . .

& they break less when your sneaking up from low 6 than in FB

WUAF_Badsight
01-15-2005, 02:18 PM
AI havent been shooting me thru clouds since AEP when it was worked on . . .

& they break less when your sneaking up from low 6 than in FB v1.x

SeaFireLIV
01-15-2005, 03:00 PM
lol! What`s happening, WUAF_Badsight?
anyway...


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I noticed that too.. The AI and the sim itself seem greatly improved. I noticed the cloud thin in 3.02.. I think I even osted on it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you did, Bearcat and since then I`ve been keeping watch whenever a fight took place with AI in clouds. In fact, I have now had around 6 missions in thick clouds, before I would fly high and over them, but to test I`ve engaged (rather fearfully) IN cloud.

Of course, I would normally lose the AI enemy (after chasing him into cloud), then come out of cloud to find the same AI has automatically locked on me...

The difference now is, I come out of cloud and there`s nothing on me!

This has happened several times now with multiple bogeys everywhere (as in the last mission). Something`s definitely different with AI seeing the Human player in clouds.

My theory is that Oleg is actually testing something here, but it`s not fully working, like Tsisqua said, a less efficient AI when in the cloud... It`s possible that this could all be coincidental fluke, but it`s just happening too many times.

Maybe 3.04 will have something special for us to go with the rumoured new clouds....

ps. I have NOT tried losing AI in cloud yet though....

WUAF_Badsight
01-15-2005, 03:55 PM
thats bizarr . . .

Lucius_Esox
01-15-2005, 05:39 PM
Very interesting post. I am gonna do some investigation into this coz if your right, a first I think, in combat flight sims!

Extreme_One
01-16-2005, 03:18 AM
On further investigation I'm still not convinced the AI are now less able to 'see' you in cloud...

I agree though that with every patch the AI gets better and better.

|CoB|_Spectre
01-16-2005, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Very interesting post. I am gonna do some investigation into this coz if your right, a first I think, in combat flight sims! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, no. Rowan's soon to be resurrected Battle of Britain made tactical use of clouds in which humans and AI could lose their pursuers. I haven't noticed any marked change in AI behavior, in fact they're back to doing things like crashing into the carrier while I'm about to snag the wire. I still notice AI wingmen will dutifully tag along behind the guy on my six, doing nothing to relieve my torment. Maybe he's taking pictures for his photo album, I dunno. It's interesting to note how differently things are experienced in this sim both online and off. I posted that I've noticed since 3.03m the increased loss of my own airplane when I destroy an aircraft I've been shooting. They now have a greater tendency to explode either immediately or shortly after catching fire, which is probably more accurate, but it costs me a wing all too often and I also go down with the kill. I got one response to that thread and that respondent said he didn't notice anything like that from close proximity kills. Awhile back I wrote Oleg with a suggestion on possible AI behavior in clouds, since they had always been unaffected by them. I got no response, not really expected any, but I hope they have tackled the problem. Now, if they could just make the AI subject to G-induced blackouts...

Recon_609IAP
01-16-2005, 06:43 AM
AI don't see nor are effected by clouds in this game.

You'll have to wait for BoB for that.

At least that is what Oleg has said before

F16_Abe
01-16-2005, 07:06 AM
I noticed it too. I was flying a online mission where both AI and humans was on both sides. The fight went well and there was only one human left on the enemy side when I got one on my 6. I feared that it was the human so I went into a cloud to shake him, and since I lost him I concluded it was him. I even came out on an advantageous position. Therefore I was not as observant on the "AI" that was coming in on my 3 o'clock. I concentrated on my real enemy instead (who by the way I know is really good). Just a matter of seconds later I was shot down by the man I fought I was following on his six. The reason for my confusion was that the AI had lost me in the cloud!

/Abe

MOhz
01-16-2005, 07:17 AM
I was flying the Battle over Britain when I also came across this phenomen. I was flying in HurriMkI following an Emil when I saw enemies tracers flying by. Because of the weather settings, clouds were all around, which meant that I ended up in one, something I do not usually do because when I played Il2, the AI had shot me down in the clouds... I did a pretty tight left turn and slighlty up to throw the bandit off and normally, I would have heard the cannons and mgs firing at me and tracers flying by, but to my surprise not only did henot fire, but was still flying straight out of the clouds.
In the next mission I noticed that the plane did not break away when I attacked from the lower hemisphere whereas he had when I had dove from behind! At first I thought I was just crazy, but because it happened again and again, there must be something to it. I did not take much notice of it then, but now...

Covino
01-16-2005, 10:11 AM
I think they improved AI response in clouds to prepare them for the new overcast clouds we'll be getting in the 3.04 patch.

I think Oleg knew a lot of folks would complain if AI were fully competant in overcast clouds so he tweaked the AI.

Recon_609IAP
01-16-2005, 11:32 AM
There has to be something at work - because you can lose padlock in clouds if I remember right. (although the 'look forward cheat' ruined padlock online imo). So if some code can know there are clouds, I'd think the AI could also be programmed based on that same logic.

It would have to be good programming though because (1) you'd have to have prediction based code and (2) awareness of behavior.

ie. I can predict where someone will come out of the clouds, but also - if fighting the same person I can note characteristics - ie. they have pulled split-S moves in the last 2 out of 3 clouds escape attempts.

Also - it might be hard to know if they see or not, since I am able to get very brief glimpses of an aircraft in the 'thinner' parts of the cloud.

I've had to go retry that though as I haven't used padlock in over a year.

Perhaps getting Oleg to respond on this would be nice - less guess work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-16-2005, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
Perhaps getting Oleg to respond on this would be nice - less guess work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

|CoB|_Spectre
01-16-2005, 06:05 PM
I'm no programmer, but it would seem in principle that being in a cloud having an effect on AI shouldn't be too hard. Since the clouds in the IL-2 series do not move, their whereabouts is known and unchanging, thus specific parameters are known. It could be as simple as, when an AI enters this "region" they "lose lock" similar to how they react when your AI pursuer is attacked and pulls-off his pursuit. At the very least a more random set of variables that did not provide for precision tracking/following could be introduced whereupon a sudden change in your direction, your evasive action, would allow for you and the AI pursuer to follow different paths.

Udidtoo
01-16-2005, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
Seafire,
I agree with you that something has definitely been done here with the clouds. (I think that you meant ai _can_ see through clouds, didn't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Anyway, it doesn't work every time, but something in the code has to be different. I think it seems that the ai, instead of becoming blind, becomes less efficient in the clouds. Bearcat posted his findings about this, and I did too, but I don't think that anyone believed us.

Great game story, BTW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Tsisqua <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not that I disbelived you Tsisqau I just figured you and Bear was in his stash of Fosters again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Seriously M8 I wish that I could see those same responses but when you guys 1st started that thread I started qmbing like mad to see it and I just can't get enough consistant results to convince me that they can't see me in the clouds. I tested by flying straight. using mild evasive manuvers and radical violent ones that will throw the AI off your 6 8 out of 10 times.

I seem to get approxinatly the same results in a cloud as a clear sky. I wish it was so because thats a really really hard to beat advantage the AI has always held over us. Maybe for BoB it won't even be a debate but listed right in the read me. Here's to hoping.

SeaFireLIV
01-16-2005, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Udidtoo:
I just can't get enough consistant results to convince me that they can't see me in the clouds. . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sort of thing is a little difficult to confirm as positive or negative by its nature and this is why continuous flying/observations are required. But something is really different, another example from this night:

Flying over the hills in the Crimea, my Hurricane was shot up, the engine was wheezing, losing power and I could not do any avoiding movements ( a slight twist to the left and right was all I could do) and the Macchi that had damaged my aircraft now chasing me to finish the job.

There was lots of low cloud so I headed for it. The Macchi fired, I entered the cloud, waited for the inevitable shots - nothing. Then I came out into a clear gap, looked behind and saw a plane flying at my 8 oclock just in the cloud. No-one directly behind.

I entered cloud again (hoping to get away) and came out into another open space, suddenly tiny orange tracer passed my pit. The Macchi was back on me, but I was in the open, not in cloud. Like I said I could barely manouever, only swing my aircraft from side to side with very little power. Another cloud was infront and I entered it with my choking engine - the firing stopped.

Finally, I came out of cloud very close to the ground and crashlanded.

Now all I did here was recall another mission with clouds. I could barely manouever, and my hurri`s speed was ****, I should have been blown away, but it seemed to me that CLOUD prevented this from happening...

Is it cloud, or isn`t it? The evidence to me, appears to be growing in favour of the cloud. Like I`ve said, before, in previous versions, flying in clouds with a bogey on your six guaranteed you`d die faster than a fast thing... now it doesn`t.

The thing is Oleg`s the sort of person to have this incorporated via the Patch, but not mention anything until he`s more certain it`s working.

Udidtoo
01-16-2005, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Udidtoo:
I just can't get enough consistant results to convince me that they can't see me in the clouds. . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you`d die faster than a fast thing.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Here's too better AI with each patch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif