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Jumoschwanz
07-15-2010, 07:10 AM
Well I tried an experiment today. I set up the 109G6early vs. four independent 25lb spits at 5k alt on the crimea map.

I have very good repeatability, that is when I approach the AI opponents in a certain way at the start, they always do the exact same thing over and over again. If I do the same, they do the same.

Anyway, the way I approached the four spitfires, my first shot always ended up being at the same Spitfire, the one on the far right of their formation. I was amazed that over an over again, despite having a very, very close shot at this first spitfire passing right in front of me at about ninety degrees, I would seemingly miss it.

I really wanted to see what was going on, so I started the mission over again three more times taking tracks each time and then reviewing and watching my shot from the other side of the Spitfire. Every single time the Spitfire flew right through my line of fire, from the single 20mm and two machine guns, without being touched. No sign of a hit and not the slightest flake of debris coming off.

I flew the beginning of the same mission over and over again, about two dozen times taking the same easy shot at the same spitfire, and when I did see the rare hit, it often would not have any effect anyway. Once out of dozens of shots I de-winged it, and maybe one other time it started to leave a slight smoke stream.

Most aircraft the bf109 will fight against in this sim will have either more than one cannon, harder hitting machine guns or both, which is obviously a big, big advantage for making any type of off-angle shot where the target will pass through the line of fire quickly.

Something to keep in mind when flying the bf109, your chances of hitting effectively with an off-angle shot are very small compared to your opponents if you have the single nose cannon. You may want to consider putting on gunpods or flying the FW190 on certain missions.

Jumoschwanz
07-15-2010, 07:10 AM
Well I tried an experiment today. I set up the 109G6early vs. four independent 25lb spits at 5k alt on the crimea map.

I have very good repeatability, that is when I approach the AI opponents in a certain way at the start, they always do the exact same thing over and over again. If I do the same, they do the same.

Anyway, the way I approached the four spitfires, my first shot always ended up being at the same Spitfire, the one on the far right of their formation. I was amazed that over an over again, despite having a very, very close shot at this first spitfire passing right in front of me at about ninety degrees, I would seemingly miss it.

I really wanted to see what was going on, so I started the mission over again three more times taking tracks each time and then reviewing and watching my shot from the other side of the Spitfire. Every single time the Spitfire flew right through my line of fire, from the single 20mm and two machine guns, without being touched. No sign of a hit and not the slightest flake of debris coming off.

I flew the beginning of the same mission over and over again, about two dozen times taking the same easy shot at the same spitfire, and when I did see the rare hit, it often would not have any effect anyway. Once out of dozens of shots I de-winged it, and maybe one other time it started to leave a slight smoke stream.

Most aircraft the bf109 will fight against in this sim will have either more than one cannon, harder hitting machine guns or both, which is obviously a big, big advantage for making any type of off-angle shot where the target will pass through the line of fire quickly.

Something to keep in mind when flying the bf109, your chances of hitting effectively with an off-angle shot are very small compared to your opponents if you have the single nose cannon. You may want to consider putting on gunpods or flying the FW190 on certain missions.

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 07:22 AM
Watching tracks with ini file Arcade=1 will tell you how many hits and where exactly without guessing.
Then you will know if your gunnery is as good as you think. Arrows will appear at every hit, you will know.

Metatron_123
07-15-2010, 07:42 AM
Yeah but if you happen to place yourself right behind an enemy, which is what the likes of Hartmann did anyway, you need no gun convergence and no deflection cause you have all the guns in the nose. In any case, don't forget that the Russian planes mostly had a similar configuration, and with less ammo. I'd say the Bf-109 has a medium armament, I wouldn't call it under-gunned.

Then there's the 30 mm gun, which is evidently a compromise meant to eradicate the need for gun pods. Little ammo and grenade launcher like-trajectory though.

So this combination requires more accurate shooting, and spray and pray won't pay off... I can imagine inexperienced young Luftwaffe pilots having a hard time with it initially. But it didn't really matter what plane you were flying(other than a jet) if you were a German flyer in 1945, so I wouldn't blame the aircraft.

TinyTim
07-15-2010, 08:00 AM
Maybe a bit of an off topic, but anyway - anyone knows what was the accuracy of nose mounted Mk 108 in reality? It seems pretty accurate in IL-2.

Jumoschwanz
07-15-2010, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Watching tracks with ini file Arcade=1 will tell you how many hits and where exactly without guessing.
Then you will know if your gunnery is as good as you think. Arrows will appear at every hit, you will know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congrats on your 8000th addition to the "wisdom" of IL2....

As usual, what you have to say is not relevant.

I would not post a thread like this if my gunnery was any question at all.

The point is that with the single cannon on the bf109, most off angle shots that are irrefutably good, will not have any effect on the target at all, not even showing up as arrows in Arcade mode.

The three shots from the three tracks in question with tracer directly in the path of the target or in the first case, smoke trails passing through it...

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5591/miss1y.jpg

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/1787/miss2.jpg

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3979/miss3.jpg

JtD
07-15-2010, 08:17 AM
No arrows, not hits. You missed. Smoke trails don't deal damage.

------
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Maybe a bit of an off topic, but anyway - anyone knows what was the accuracy of nose mounted Mk 108 in reality? It seems pretty accurate in IL-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's too inaccurate when I fire it and too accurate when others do. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-15-2010, 08:49 AM
anyone remembers what a different kind of weapon the MK108 was in the first time of IL2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

THAT was a sniper gun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


on topic, for me the nosemounted MG151/20 is ok.
nothing to complain. if the MG131 in game are realy needed.................

Treetop64
07-15-2010, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Watching tracks with ini file Arcade=1 will tell you how many hits and where exactly without guessing.
Then you will know if your gunnery is as good as you think. Arrows will appear at every hit, you will know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congrats on your 8000th addition to the "wisdom" of IL2....

As usual, what you have to say is not relevant.

I would not post a thread like this if my gunnery was any question at all.

The point is that with the single cannon on the bf109, most off angle shots that are irrefutably good, will not have any effect on the target at all, not even showing up as arrows in Arcade mode.

The three shots from the three tracks in question with tracer directly in the path of the target or in the first case, smoke trails passing through it...

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5591/miss1y.jpg

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/1787/miss2.jpg

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3979/miss3.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I hope you're not actually trying to be taken seriously, especially considering these images, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Manu-6S
07-15-2010, 09:24 AM
The reason can be that the smoke can't follow the path of the shell because of engine's limit...

In any case you seem to be too far firing a 108.. usually I shoot at &lt; 50m (almost colliding the guy)

AndyJWest
07-15-2010, 10:27 AM
I don't think there is anything wrong with the first screenshot, though the other two don't tell us much. Th first picture clearly shows a spitfire moving through a stationary smoke trail. IL-2 can model that without too much difficulty. If the Bf-109 was armed with laser beams, you might have a case for complaining...

Jumoschwanz
07-15-2010, 10:33 AM
I am not complaining. This was an informational thread to warn SMART pilots using the 20mm Nose cannon on the bf109g in IL2, that their opponent will fly through their stream of fire unscathed more often than not when taking off-angle shots.

The rest of the theorists and naysayers can be damned, you don't count and are not relevant to them......

tomtheyak
07-15-2010, 10:33 AM
Awwww... lil Jumo can't shoot straight?

Christ, why did you even bother posting this?

Why am i bothering to reply?!?

p-11.cAce
07-15-2010, 10:38 AM
Here you go Jumo:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/robbfurlow/bucket-of-fail-demotivational-poste.jpg

AndyJWest
07-15-2010, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The rest of the theorists and naysayers can be damned, you don't count and are not relevant to them..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, Jumoschwanz, perhaps you can give a rough estimate of (a) where the shells that left the trail in the first pic are, relative to the Spitfire, (b) how fast they are moving, and (c) how fast the Spit is moving. Then those of us who can 'count', or at least those of us who can do simple maths, can figure out where the Spit was at the point the shells came closest. Or isn't this 'relevant'?

RegRag1977
07-15-2010, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AndyJWest:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The rest of the theorists and naysayers can be damned, you don't count and are not relevant to them..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, Jumoschwanz, perhaps you can give a rough estimate of (a) where the shells that left the trail in the first pic are, relative to the Spitfire, (b) how fast they are moving, and (c) how fast the Spit is moving. Then those of us who can 'count', or at least those of us who can do simple maths, can figure out where the Spit was at the point the shells came closest. Or isn't this 'relevant'? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, exactly. My guess is that on the first pic, the pilot shot too early or too late, and its only the wing crossing the smoke trail that we are seeing.

@ Jumo: the shooting timing seems to be the issue here, not the angles.

Manu-6S
07-15-2010, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
I am not complaining. This was an informational thread to warn SMART pilots using the 20mm Nose cannon on the bf109g in IL2, that their opponent will fly through their stream of fire unscathed more often than not when taking off-angle shots.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Jumo, but I think your conclusion is quite obvious.

Nose cannon = no spread of shells and of course your scoring hits depend on the target's wing area or speed (or if you are really good/lucky you can hit the main frame of the airplane). You'll score 1, max 2 hits against a Spitfire (again, depending from his speed).

With more weapons you have to think about different convergences and so the spread of shell is bigger... in that way it's easier to score multiple hits in that snap shot.

AndyJWest
07-15-2010, 11:33 AM
A rough calculation: Mk 108 cannon muzzle velocity = 540 m/s (from Wikipedia, but I'll assume this is right for now, it sounds plausible). That's 1944 Km/h. Add on the speed of the Bf 109 - around 330 Km/h (TAS) from the speedbar figures. Assuming generously that the Spit is only doing half this (165 Km/h), and ignoring the fact that the shell slows down after it leaves the cannon, the shell is going (1944 + 330)/165 = 13.8 times faster than the Spit. Now from the picture the trail certainly isn't more than a metre back from the spit leading edge. So for the shell to have 'passed through' the wing, it couldn't be further than 13.8 m from the Spit at the time the pic was taken. The pic doesn't show it, and it would surely be visible if it was still that close. You missed, Jumoschwanz...

Jumoschwanz
07-15-2010, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
@ Jumo: the shooting timing seems to be the issue here, not the angles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is amazing how you can make a conclusion like this when it is not you doing the shooting and you do not have the track. I MADE the tracks to test gunnery, and I sure as $hit held the trigger down for an exaggerated length of time, these spits flew through a stream of fire be sure.

Anyone can test this themselves if they can competently make the shot. Furthermore, on occasion you can even have a Spit fly through a stream of fire from a bf109 with the 20mm gunpods.

Why is there talk about mk108s in this thread? At the thread start it is easy to read about how mg151 was used. Another example of great non-reading ability by the morons of General Discussion.

AndyJWest
07-15-2010, 12:38 PM
Ok, so you are talking about MG 151s, and 20mm cannon, rather than a 30mm. Do you really think this makes that much difference to the calculation?

As for the Spit flying 'through a stream of fire' the only relevant image you've posted shows a Spit apparently flying through the smoke trails behind a miss-aimed shot. How about posting this track so we can see for ourselves whether we are 'morons' or not?

Romanator21
07-15-2010, 12:39 PM
Do us all a favor and set Arcade=1 and run the tracks again. Oh, and don't forget to post the pictures http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ROXunreal
07-15-2010, 12:40 PM
Jesus Christ please get real and sort out your attitude while you're at it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

1. The fact that a spit WING went through your line of fire without damage is due to the fact that bullets don't flow out of your guns in a completely continuous stream, but due to the fact that there is a thing called rate of fire, and even if the target ('s wing) did cross through your gun sight while you were holding the trigger, it may have VERY REALISTICALLY passed through without being hit. Here, let me draw it for you:

Judging from your outrage, you may think bullets flow out from your guns like this:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

while in fact they flow like this:
&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;

therefore, in your situation this might have happened:
&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_WING_&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;


2. More realistically, you missed. The first picture does not show rounds going through a spitfire wing with no damage being done, it shows smoke trails from rounds that passed IN FRONT of the spitfire wing and then the spit passed through the smoke trail. So in all seriousness, you have no case, at all.

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Watching tracks with ini file Arcade=1 will tell you how many hits and where exactly without guessing.
Then you will know if your gunnery is as good as you think. Arrows will appear at every hit, you will know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congrats on your 8000th addition to the "wisdom" of IL2....

As usual, what you have to say is not relevant.

I would not post a thread like this if my gunnery was any question at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whether you hit and what part of the target you hit is ENTIRELY the question as YOU DID NOT SAY IN YOUR OP.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The point is that with the single cannon on the bf109, most off angle shots that are irrefutably good, will not have any effect on the target at all, not even showing up as arrows in Arcade mode. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in my experience. I nail the front of the fuselage and the target either dies or is deeply wounded.

Better LUCK with your shooting in the future Egoschwanz. It's going to have to be luck since you're incapable of critiquing your own performance.

BTW, I did expect your usual put-down reply to any suggestion I might make, the usual post-count dig included.
When your head finally loses some of that swelling then you might be able to see that I did make a HELPFUL SUGGESTION.
Sorry that you would rather remain ignorant and pull the old "blame the sim" excuse than to see what really happened.

Hizack78
07-15-2010, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Whether you hit and what part of the target you hit is ENTIRELY the question as YOU DID NOT SAY IN YOUR OP.

Not in my experience. I nail the front of the fuselage and the target either dies or is deeply wounded.

Better LUCK with your shooting in the future Egoschwanz. It's going to have to be luck since you're incapable of critiquing your own performance.

BTW, I did expect your usual put-down reply to any suggestion I might make, the usual post-count dig included.
When your head finally loses some of that swelling then you might be able to see that I did make a HELPFUL SUGGESTION.
Sorry that you would rather remain ignorant and pull the old "blame the sim" excuse than to see what really happened. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely it can not be attributed to pilot error. I mean, that's just unthinkable isn't it!?

JtD
07-15-2010, 01:14 PM
Spit flying at 360 km/h, wing goes through a stationary point within 1/40 of a second. Time interval between projectiles fired at a rate of 750 rpm, 1/12.5 seconds. Odds of hitting the wing: 31%.

Or, in between two projectiles, an eight meter long object flying at 360 km/h could pass through without being hit. That is almost the length of an airplane, let alone of a wing.

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Metatron_123:
Yeah but if you happen to place yourself right behind an enemy, which is what the likes of Hartmann did anyway, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right close behind the target you are either co-speed or set to pass at not too great an angle to his nose. You won't have time to gain much separation after shooting from so close.

What I read from Hartmann and adopted (playing EAW back then) 11 years ago was to:
1) with higher speed, make an oblique approach to off one wingtip
2) make a 'rude turn' into the target
3) fire point blank into the front of the target while continuing to turn hard
4) exit behind the tail of the target, crossing his path
5) whether the attack succeeded or not, exit the scene

The oblique approach is not directly at the target. He wrote of coming to a point not far off the wing tip, about 50 ft. At that point is the 'rude turn', a hard turn directly at the target and almost immediate triggering the gun. Sure the shots have distance between one and the next but the first one fires when you pull the trigger and that's the one that counts.

It doesn't use much ammo. Fire time is very short. He did not always make the kill. His exit was an integral part of the strategy, to be hard if not impossible to strike back at by the target, his mates or escorts. Survival was more important than the kill.

My own findings are that you don't so much aim as TIME the shot. From bank and yank to bang is a very short interval. IME it is followed by ramming the target the first several tries even back when my reflexes were a lot faster than since. Getting it right was a thrill, something of a rush that lasts through the exit maneuver and delayed my follow-up SA a bit. Something to savor though, a definite WOW! Since then I learned to shoot from farther away where I can hold my aim longer, less than a second but more than a flash.

Hartmann learned from Marseille who did write his tactics down for other LW pilots. Some day I should track his book(s?) down.

Art-J
07-15-2010, 01:16 PM
Jumo, just pack some of these tracks in an archive, upload it somewhere and give us a link(plus, in case of .trks, some info on game version) and we'll take a look at them.

Cheers - Art

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sirkyleaziz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Whether you hit and what part of the target you hit is ENTIRELY the question as YOU DID NOT SAY IN YOUR OP.

Not in my experience. I nail the front of the fuselage and the target either dies or is deeply wounded.

Better LUCK with your shooting in the future Egoschwanz. It's going to have to be luck since you're incapable of critiquing your own performance.

BTW, I did expect your usual put-down reply to any suggestion I might make, the usual post-count dig included.
When your head finally loses some of that swelling then you might be able to see that I did make a HELPFUL SUGGESTION.
Sorry that you would rather remain ignorant and pull the old "blame the sim" excuse than to see what really happened. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely it can not be attributed to pilot error. I mean, that's just unthinkable isn't it!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not if checking your own shots is beyond question! Nope, any hits made are all inconsequential.. it says. IRL those smoke trails would have taken the wing right off!

BillSwagger
07-15-2010, 01:30 PM
Just to add, I know that replaying tracks also takes away certain effects and sounds. I'm not sure if this is a universal problem or just my game but it makes it harder to evaluate things on replay.
For that reason i recommend using the arcade mode if you really care about it that much.

From my experience, flying 109Gs and Fs i notice that i get a pretty decent spread considering one nose cannon is firing.

Of course these things i notice more when being shot at. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Bill

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Spit flying at 360 km/h, wing goes through a stationary point within 1/40 of a second. Time interval between projectiles fired at a rate of 750 rpm, 1/12.5 seconds. Odds of hitting the wing: 31%.

Or, in between two projectiles, an eight meter long object flying at 360 km/h could pass through without being hit. That is almost the length of an airplane, let alone of a wing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fuselage shot, time the trigger right and the first shell will hit. Premature ejac.. uhhh, fire, and anyone should at least have the decency to not make a big deal about it!

Besides, who expects to down a Spit with a wingtip hit?

Remember when the P-51 bullets all fired in coherent waves?

Treetop64
07-15-2010, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sirkyleaziz:
Surely it can not be attributed to pilot error. I mean, that's just unthinkable isn't it!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Gasp! Surely not! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Seriously: Jumo, you missed. Period. Your first pic proves that. You missed, you got mad, and now you're pointing the finger at everything else but yourself.

Get over it.

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 06:19 PM
Apologies Metatron, sometimes Hartmann did hit from the six and sometimes did return to attack the same target.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Once committed to an attack, fly in at full speed. After scoring crippling or disabling hits, I would clear myself and then repeat the process. I never pursued the enemy once they had eluded me. Better to break off and set up again for a new assault. I always began my attacks from full strength, if possible, my ideal flying height being 22,000 ft because at that altitude I could best utilize the performance of my aircraft. Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF, aka Karaya One, worlds leading ace, with 352 victories in W.W.II.Jagdgeschwader 52. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he wounded the target, he might come back to finish the job! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I opened fire when the whole windshield was black with the enemy . . . at minimum range . . . it doesn't matter what your angle is to him or whether you are in a turn or any other maneuver.

Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">See, decide, attack, reverse.

Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If he is superior then I would go home, for another day that is better.

Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From an interview with Hartmann before he died:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Q: How did you assess your enemy in the air?


A: I knew that if an enemy pilot started firing early, well outside the maximum effective range of his guns then he was an easy kill. But, if a pilot closed in and held his fire, and seemed to be watching the situation, then you knew that an experienced pilot was on you.
Also, I developed different tactics for various conditions, such as always turning into the guns of an approaching enemy, or rolling into a negative G dive forcing him to follow or break off, then rolling out and sometimes reducing air speed to allow him to over commit. That was when you took advantage of his failing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Q: What was you favorite method of attack?



A: Coming out of the sun and getting close; dog-fighting was a waste of time. The hit and run with the element of surprise served me well, as with most of the high scoring pilots. Once a Russian was shot down, especially the leader they became disorganized and easy to attack. This was not always the case, especially later in the war, and there were special units of highly skilled and disciplined pilots, such as the Red Banner units who would make life difficult. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"If taken by surprise, I would do one or the other automatically, depending on conditions. If I had time, and saw my attacker coming in, I would wait to see how close he would come before opening up. If he began firing at long range, I could always turn into him. If he held his fire, I got ready for a real battle. Even against good competition, you could always break away by using negative G's.

In a tight turning maneuver, the attacker must turn more tightly in order to pull lead on his quarry. For a split second you pass under his nose and below his line of sight, as he tries to line his guns up ahead of you. It is precisely at that moment when he gets his gunnery angle on you, that you push the nose forward, kick bottom rudder and are gone. Your attacker cannot see you. He is intent on pulling lead and is turning in the opposite direction, in an ever tighter circle, even as you are diving and then turning the other way."

"As I said before, the use of the negative G is a last-ditch measure. Frankly, I tried everything possible never to be placed in such a position, because if your attacker had a good wingman, he could quickly pick up that maneuver. This is why I avoided dogfights. They were long and drawn-out affairs, requiring all your attention, allowing another opponent to jump you. They were the longest and most difficult method of getting a kill, the expensive and the most dangerous."
-Leading Experten Erich Hartmann (352 confirmed victories)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

julian265
07-15-2010, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
Judging from your outrage, you may think bullets flow out from your guns like this:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

while in fact they flow like this:
&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;

therefore, in your situation this might have happened:
&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_WING_&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well drawn. To be honest, I've always been surprised at how commonly obliteration occurs after a high deflection shot with a 108, or single/dual 20mm in IL-2.

AndyJWest
07-15-2010, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by julian265:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
Judging from your outrage, you may think bullets flow out from your guns like this:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

while in fact they flow like this:
&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;

therefore, in your situation this might have happened:
&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_WING_&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;_____&gt;
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well drawn. To be honest, I've always been surprised at how commonly obliteration occurs after a high deflection shot with a 108, or single/dual 20mm in IL-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect that most 'high deflection shots' of the type that Jumoschwanz showed involve a degree of following the target's motion, rather than aiming the guns at a fixed point you expect the target to fly through. This should increase your hit rate quite a bit. Basically you start firing at 'too much deflection' and track across allowing the target to gain slightly until you reach 'too little' In an oblique attack, you'd call this a 'slashing shot', but the principle is the same. I've found it fairly effective both against the AI, and online against human pilots, with a cannon-armed aircraft. Then again, I rarely get on the tail of human opposition, so shooting from their six isn't an option...

M_Gunz
07-15-2010, 11:58 PM
With 90 degree type deflection you can't track anything within close range without covering it with your nose except for the last instants (unless maybe you are in a hell of a skid). The difficulty of such a snap shot is well known. It is a matter of timing as well as aim (you want to hit the fuselage or at least a wing root) and a good bit of luck. Your own range to the impact point out in front of the target is decreasing rapidly even as the target approaches that same point rapidly yet the human mind is capable of getting it right whether in aerial gunnery or with arrow/spear/stone to hit wild game it is a very right-brain operation. Leave me my fixed point in front of the target to aim for, at least for those large angle shots! Not that I prefer them but they do crop up and hardly take any ammo at all, done properly hit or miss.

megalopsuche
07-16-2010, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Maybe a bit of an off topic, but anyway - anyone knows what was the accuracy of nose mounted Mk 108 in reality? It seems pretty accurate in IL-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Mk 108 was one of the most outstanding auto-cannons of the war, especially in consideration of its light weight and small size. Of course its major drawback was the low muzzle velocity, but I have never read anything to suggest that it was inaccurate.

Look up what Tony Williams has to say about the Mk 108 and you'll be surprised.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

"The outstanding performer is clearly the German 30 mm MK 108, which achieves ten times the destructiveness of the .50 M2 for only twice the weight."

M_Gunz
07-16-2010, 11:03 AM
Perception of accuracy depends on range and target size. At short ranges like 50 ft, .22 rimfire are extremely accurate compared to target dots a thumb width (1") across and they have muzzle velocity only around 1200 ft/sec. Consistent ballistics does not require high velocity shots.

ROXunreal
07-16-2010, 11:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Perception of accuracy depends on range and target size. At short ranges like 50 ft, .22 rimfire are extremely accurate compared to target dots a thumb width (1") across and they have muzzle velocity only around 1200 ft/sec. Consistent ballistics does not require high velocity shots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but it does make deflection shots much harder, especially when you're used to 20mm.

Ba5tard5word
07-16-2010, 12:02 PM
Get closer. I always have trouble getting shots on target with a 109's nose guns and wait until I'm very close. People say that nose-mounted guns are more accurate but I find they're more difficult to get shots on target with, also 109 MG's and cannons don't have much in the way of tracers so it's a bit hard to know where your bullets are going and to know how to adjust your aiming.

Or fly an Fw-190, you can get easy kills at 400m out with a single burst where it would require you to get to more like 150-200m in a 109 and fire for much longer to get the same kill. The Fw-190 lets you be really lazy with firing which makes up for its slow acceleration. The 109 lets you actually keep up with enemies in a turn battle so you can get close and choose your shots.

M2morris
07-16-2010, 12:46 PM
I watched a track today after I flew an F4U1C against 3, KI 61s. Point-blank shot on a close fly-by. Paused the track and saw that my 20MM rounds were going directly through an AI pilot's cockpit, and his legs too, as he was banking hard and looking up at me gazing at my blazing guns. He got some bullet holes around the cockpit on his fuse but that was it. No canopy damage or smoke and he remained a threat. But then a B5N torpedo bomber hit with a 20MM explodes easily.
Maybe with some planes that are harder to take down they have it set up so you need to put more rounds on target for a longer period.
But having you cockpit raked with 20MM coming down through you canopy glass and into your legs would really ruin your day IMO, even if there are only one or two hits. Oh well, it's only a game. That's just my two cents.

Engadin
07-16-2010, 01:09 PM
Jumo, I am on your side, mate, but please, post the tracks, as somebody else posted before. I follow you at youtube and sure you are right. Upload the tracks. Or else, make one of your movies, arcade mode or not, and let us watch it.

Engadin.

Rjel
07-16-2010, 05:04 PM
Maybe you should try one of the modded 109s? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

M_Gunz
07-16-2010, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Perception of accuracy depends on range and target size. At short ranges like 50 ft, .22 rimfire are extremely accurate compared to target dots a thumb width (1") across and they have muzzle velocity only around 1200 ft/sec. Consistent ballistics does not require high velocity shots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but it does make deflection shots much harder, especially when you're used to 20mm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to be really good then yes stick with a limited set of weapons and one plane. The timing really changes. Same lead to deflection-hit the nose with 20mm might hit cockpit, middle or rear fuse depending on range with the Mk 108. It is a gun to fire close in with (less difference) or from insanely high closing speed, not impossible with high deflection angle and fast plane.

The cool part with a sim is that to practice such shots is easy to do and costs nothing but time and some electricity. I can highly recommend gunnery practice with arcade set to 1 so the hits show up as white dots, also to make and review tracks same as pro and better amateur sports players review video of their own practice. Better to be *sure* than to think "it must be that... so I will say it was so". Overconfidence is for juveniles and delinquents.

jermin122
07-17-2010, 02:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Maybe a bit of an off topic, but anyway - anyone knows what was the accuracy of nose mounted Mk 108 in reality? It seems pretty accurate in IL-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

3 mils at 100 meter if memory serves me right. Try firing nose MK108 in slow motion and watch the trajectory, I'm sure you'll be amaized.

jermin122
07-17-2010, 02:39 AM
Don't judge hit by trails. It is always 1 second delayed of bullet in the game. It is very sad that this old bug still hasn't been fixed.

M_Gunz
07-17-2010, 06:32 AM
Some day we may have computers able to do it all at once, even 'just' the simulated things subset of reality.

Erkki_M
07-17-2010, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
Don't judge hit by trails. It is always 1 second delayed of bullet in the game. It is very sad that this old bug still hasn't been fixed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which weapon? MG151/20? Both RL and in-game, the APIT round has considerably worse muzzle speed and more curved trajectory than the HE and especially mine-rounds.

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_151_cannon

I have seen a Finnish test of MG151 projectile speed and drop over 1000m distance for all ammo types somewhere, but I couldnt find it...

This often happens in game too, you see the tracer fall short, but the explosive rounds hit.

EDIT: here it is!

http://ip.fi/~toumasho/MG151_velo.jpg

More here: http://www.lagus.org/board/ind...splay;threadid=10634 (http://www.lagus.org/board/index.php?board=17;action=display;threadid=10634)

M_Gunz
07-17-2010, 08:36 AM
Another +1 to Erkki!

Observation: Going by graphics-based guessing when we have been given the tools to know better.. I just dunno, might as well tune in to Palin and Limbaugh to get the 'real story'.

Erkki_M
07-18-2010, 01:55 AM
Well, some years back I was told how il-2 sucks because the weapons have so low rate of fire. I told him they dont, but the guns have a "belting" and not all rounds have tracers. Almost a week after he was again at it, telling me how the "invisible rounds that do less damage than the visible ones" suck too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif