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BSS_Vidar
09-29-2006, 02:43 PM
I tried on several occations to get this badly modeled charaterisitc in the IL-2 series changed via bug emails, but got responces back from The Man himself saying a vote was cast and the braking we have now was chosen.

Well, I didn't get to vote on that then, so here's your chance to be heard as a community.

The braking charateristics in the IL-2 series has been dismal and been thrown by the way-side for years, especialy after the v4.01 patch with new torque model.

No more full throttle to turn right, and bring back the ability to lock up a pivot wheel is my biggset concern.

NonWonderDog
09-29-2006, 04:48 PM
I voted to add a toe-brake axis, but know this: the current behavior is realistic for Russian and British planes. This was originally a Russian sim. Thus, the differential braking works as it did in Russian fighters.

I would actually like it if only the German planes had toe brakes in BoB. There were probably a couple British bombers with toe brakes, too, and they should have them in the sim.

The Hurricane and Spitfire should, however, be exactly as they are now. They have one brake lever (on the stick), and differential braking was controlled by rudder input.

The brakes should probably be the way they are now, but with an option to use separate brake axes in those planes that had them separate. There probably doesn't need to be an option to use separate brake axes in those planes that didn't have them separate.

mrsiCkstar
09-30-2006, 05:03 AM
yeah for BoB atleast it should be the way raising and lowering landing gear works now...

there should be a wheelbrake command and then separate commands for left and right wheelbrakes. So just like we have now with the gear, if you fly an RAF fighter you'll just use the normal wheelbrake, but if you fly a plane that had separate brakes those would be active instead, just like if you'd fly an F4F now and had to operate your gear manually.

IV_JG51_Razor
09-30-2006, 07:50 AM
NonWonderdog, the mechanisim for the way the brakes work in the Russian and British planes may be correct, but the EFFECTIVENESS of the brakes have been drastically reduced a couple of patches ago. I voted for the toe brakes also, but I could live happily with the design as it is, if Oleg would go back to the way the brakes were a couple of patches ago. As it is now, taxiing on a carrier (and getting stopped) is very, very difficult, not to mention just taxiing around on the airfield.

Philipscdrw
09-30-2006, 10:11 AM
Douglas Bader, when he returned to flight with the RAF in the late 30s, had a checkride on an American trainer type (forget which) which had toe-brakes, which he couldn't use with his artificial legs. But he was reassured that it was the only type in service with the RAF that had toe-brakes - everything else had brakes on the stick.

It's not just the braking - most aspects of ground behaviour are very strange in this sim. Winds make it impossible to taxi. Aircraft bounce on non-runway ground and nearly always flip over on field landing. I hope that with the entirely new BoB engine, they've found a way to give proper simulation of movement on the ground.

I map wheel-brake to the left toe axis of my rudder pedals. Hopefully (Oleg please read just this sentence!) in BoB it would be possible to give two assignments to the same control, as long as they never both need to be used at once - so I could have Left Toe Axis assigned to Wheel Brakes and/or Left Wheel Brake.

smokincrater
10-01-2006, 02:04 AM
As far as I understand most British types had a column brake.

Vorondil-1986
10-01-2006, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by: Philipscdrw
I map wheel-brake to the left toe axis of my rudder pedals. Hopefully (Oleg please read just this sentence!) in BoB it would be possible to give two assignments to the same control, as long as they never both need to be used at once - so I could have Left Toe Axis assigned to Wheel Brakes and/or Left Wheel Brake.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
I totally agree with this, then one won't need to have three pedals on the rudder/pedal device http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWSensei
10-01-2006, 07:27 AM
Toe brakes would end up being non-historical for many of the repesented aircraft. The method for differential braking (applying full rudder with braking and throttle) in the game works and is accurate in terms of the actions to take.

However, the braking effectiveness and ground handling characteristics are off. Toe brakes wouldn't fix that problem. You would just have the same handling problems with non-historical braking mechanism.

In BoB it would be nice to have the toe brakes as optional for those aircraft that had them. But for a lot of Russian and RAF aircraft they did not have toe brakes but the rudder/column brake as represented currently.

LEBillfish
10-01-2006, 08:05 AM
Whatever is historically accurate yet with a "key mapping" addition for toe brakes so those without pedals could use them.......

Yet I'd rather stick with what we have then have all planes be toe braked......But, would like each plane accurate.

Didn't vote, lacking the "Historically accurate with key mapping option".....option...

BSS_Vidar
10-02-2006, 12:19 AM
Well, getting the brake reactions corrected with the current set-up would be terrific: It would be better than nothing.

As for accuracy with a single hydrolic input with rudder application... whats so historical about that when you can't apply it as you would in the plane in-game. I have CH pedals with the left toe brake axis is assigned to apply brake pressure. What's so historical about that? No one uses a slider on the stick to apply hydrolic braking, then inputing rudder.

Setting the "GAME" up with two separate axis will simply give us (as a community) more control on the ground - especialy the carrier squadrons out there.

WWSensei
10-02-2006, 08:36 AM
No one uses a slider on the stick to apply hydrolic braking, then inputing rudder.

Actually, that's exactly what I have. I've mapped a ministick on my throttle for the braking HOTAS rather than a keymapping. With the exception of a couple of the quirky ground-handling of the He111 and a couple of other aircraft I don't have trouble doing differential braking or pivoting on a single wheel. I don't have toe brakes on my pedals.

As for carrier issues there is a problem with braking effectiveness on carriers. Having seperate axis won't solve that problem. When I can get the brakes to catch I have no problem spinning an aircraft around a single gear in game, but the problem isn't a "seperate axis versus rudder/brake use" issue. It's a braking effectiveness problem. I'd prefer the fix the real problem. Seperate axis at this point will just mean you won't be able to pivot with two axis rather than one--won't solve your problem.

There are a couple of other issues that can cause pivot wheel braking from not working properly. If you have filtered or decreased the rudder inputs such that they don't reach 100% for either braking or rudder then you will have a problem in pivot turning. Setting at least the last slider on the rudder to 100 will alleviate that.

BSS_Vidar
10-02-2006, 04:11 PM
THANK YOU VERY MUCH Sensei!

My rudder settings were still set at default. Moving the last slider to 100 made all the difference in the world! The plane still has a tendency to creep forward with full breaking; however, the ability to pivot on either wheele effectively is back - plus helps stop the plane quicker when applying brakes in either direction.

This means the Blacksheep will be able to conduct flex-deck ops on carriers again!

Wish someone had told me this a long time ago. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Philipscdrw
10-02-2006, 05:36 PM
Aaaaah!

Sensei, you are wonderful!

My rudder pedals aren't very reliable now - the input spikes all over the place, it doesn't stay stable - never realised that this could affect my braking.

It would be nice if the differential brakes would apply gradually as you move the rudder - say between 25-75% rudder, the brakes go from 'same force to both wheels' to 'all force to inner wheel'. Then the first and last 25% of rudder movement wouldn't affect the brakes.

WWSensei
10-02-2006, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
THANK YOU VERY MUCH Sensei!

I aim to please... ;-) Glad to have helped...

hshmulik
10-05-2006, 08:03 AM
Had a thought:

Implement differential breaking by using two separate keys for a/c that supported it (e.g. comma & period), and use either keys to appply both breaks for a/c that don't (Russian/British).

Same goes for rudder pedals with breaks - left pedal applies left brake, right pedal applies right break, but in Russian/British a/c use either one to apply both breaks at the same time.

This way you add realism to all the others a/c while maintaining historical correctness for those using the current method.

In CFS, you could use B for both breaks, but also F11/F12 for left/right breaking.

Akronnick
10-05-2006, 03:16 PM
Should be modeled according to how it was on the historical plane in question, i.e., Spitfire shold be like it is now, Mustang should have toe brakes.

It would also be nice if each engine had seperate throttle, pitch and mixture axes, with options to have one control handle all of them, something like:

brake axis(all)
brake axis(left)
brake axis(right)

throttle(all)
prop pitch (all)
mixture (all)
throttle (engine 1,2,...)
prop pitch (engine 1,2,...)
mixture (engine 1,2,...)

Philipscdrw
10-05-2006, 06:36 PM
It's a poor idea to simultaneously have several joystick axes assigned to one sim control - this would be the case if both Left Brake and Right Brake controls USSR/UK Hand Brake...

I'd like to see 6 brake controls: (for brevity I'll say US for toe-brake aircraft and UK for hand-brake aircraft)

Left Brake US
Right Brake US
Hand Brake UK
All Brakes
Left Brake US/Hand Brake UK
Right Brake US/Hand Brake UK

People with no toe axes could use 'All Brakes' on a spare slider somewhere; it would work just like today's 'Brakes'.

I'd use "Left Brake US/Hand Brake UK" on my left toe axis and "Right Brake US" on my right toe axis. Then I can use toe brakes on US craft realistically and my left foot on UK aircraft, like I do now. Some people might prefer to use their right foot for brakes, so they'd use the opposite setting.

People with a spare hand-operated axis could use the 'Left Brake US' and 'Right Brake US' controls on their toe axis and 'Hand Brake UK' on a stick- or throttle-mounted axis, for ultimate realism!

There would need to be some sort of interlocking in the UI to prevent more than one joystick axis being assigned to one sim control, or they'd conflict - but that should be straightforward.

Stackhouse25th
10-06-2006, 04:50 PM
need it

hshmulik
10-08-2006, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
It's a poor idea to simultaneously have several joystick axes assigned to one sim control - this would be the case if both Left Brake and Right Brake controls USSR/UK Hand Brake...

I'd like to see 6 brake controls: (for brevity I'll say US for toe-brake aircraft and UK for hand-brake aircraft)

Left Brake US
Right Brake US
Hand Brake UK
All Brakes
Left Brake US/Hand Brake UK
Right Brake US/Hand Brake UK

People with no toe axes could use 'All Brakes' on a spare slider somewhere; it would work just like today's 'Brakes'.

I'd use "Left Brake US/Hand Brake UK" on my left toe axis and "Right Brake US" on my right toe axis. Then I can use toe brakes on US craft realistically and my left foot on UK aircraft, like I do now. Some people might prefer to use their right foot for brakes, so they'd use the opposite setting.

People with a spare hand-operated axis could use the 'Left Brake US' and 'Right Brake US' controls on their toe axis and 'Hand Brake UK' on a stick- or throttle-mounted axis, for ultimate realism!

There would need to be some sort of interlocking in the UI to prevent more than one joystick axis being assigned to one sim control, or they'd conflict - but that should be straightforward.

Couldn't put it in simpler terms myself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

But seriously - having a right/left/both configuration is an overkill ?
It's been done before, so...

Philipscdrw
10-08-2006, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by hshmulik:
Couldn't put it in simpler terms myself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

But seriously - having a right/left/both configuration is an overkill ?
It's been done before, so...

Well, is there a simpler way, which would let all kinds of aircraft brake be simulated accurately, without having two joystick axes controlling the same thing in the sim?

hshmulik
10-09-2006, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Well, is there a simpler way, which would let all kinds of aircraft brake be simulated accurately, without having two joystick axes controlling the same thing in the sim?

I believe not. You'll have to get 2 separate buttons/joystick axes, just in order to simulate the left & right breaks. But maybe you can do away with a third button/axis to simulate both breaks, by accepting input from either to apply breaks on both wheels in the appropriate a/c.

Maybe in the case of a joystick axis, you'll have to calculate the mean of both axes if they do not apply the same input ?

Philipscdrw
10-09-2006, 11:17 AM
OK, perhaps 'Left Brake US/All Brakes UK' and 'Right Brake US' would be sufficient.

NonWonderDog
10-09-2006, 05:01 PM
Keypresses for left brake and right brake aren't needed, though. You'd only have less control, more frustration, and fewer free keys if you had to use separate keypresses for left and right brake. It's better just to keep the one brakes key as it is now, no matter what plane you're flying.