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MLudner
10-29-2005, 04:32 PM
All right, first: This is NOT a whine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif!

But, it is question. I flew a P-51D mission last weekend that was a recon flight, NOE, with only not-so-trusty wingman along for the ride. Within minutes of crossing the lines I spotted a CAP of 4 x FW-190D9's descending on us to the north. I turned into them, but my inept AI wingman turned away from me during the initial pass and was separated from me before I could do anything about it. I saw his situation and turned back, but he had flown in the opposite direction and then - most politely from the German perspective - proceeded to fly straight and level http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif as a 190D9 hammered him from behind. He went down before I could even complete my turn.
This, of course, meant it was now 4 to 1. However, I'm game, I'm hip to it, man; I dig it hard! I gonna git me some! Perforate me some Krauts for breakfast!
That is, until I discovered I could not keep up with them. I kept out-maneuvering them and then dipping in behind them, but only to watch them pull away and out-climb me each time.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
That's not supposed to happen! As a result I was unable to get even a shot at them. In some cases they had the energy advantage initially, but that would not have lasted indefinitely. I should have started gaining on them, but never did.
My God, but I felt like I was flying a Zero against Corsairs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Then a second 190D9 CAP joined in. 8 to 1 now. Of course, I've been screaming for help over the R/T for some time now, but my own CAPs seem oddly disinterested, despite the fact that I had intentionally drawn the fight onto Allied turf. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Sniveling cowards...
I kept at it for a while, trying to catch some one of them - any one of them - within firing range at some point ... but they continued to out run me with ease. Also, due to their numbers, I was getting less and less time each pass to close before having to evade another imminent attack.
I called it. That was just wrong. My prop pitch was maxed, aircraft properly trimmed, external fuel tanks had been jettisoned upon seeing the first CAP coming down, fuel mix unadjustable, no supercharger settings adjustable - at least according to my computer! - flaps fully retracted, I was undamaged, radiator closed upon sight of first CAP approach.
These are the stats I have:
P-51D: MAx Speed 437 MPH (703 KPH) at 25,000ft ASL / 395 MPH (636 KPH) at 5,000ft ASL.

FW-190D9: 426 MPH (with MW50)(685 KPH) at 21,653ft ASL / 357 MPH (574 KPH) at sea level.
(A head scratching icon would be useful here, but failing that...)
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Now, therefore, one would think I should have been faster.
I have since conducted several low altitude speed tests in QMB. The best I have been able to attain is 340 MPH IAS at 3,000 ft ASL.
That is with Throttle at max, flaps fully retracted, trim balanced, radiator closed. I cannot change the supercharger setting. I have that set as ctrl + right arrow = Next Stage; ctrl + left arrow = Previous Stage. I have checked it in the control menu.

Is it something I don't know, or is it the game?

MLudner
10-29-2005, 04:32 PM
All right, first: This is NOT a whine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif!

But, it is question. I flew a P-51D mission last weekend that was a recon flight, NOE, with only not-so-trusty wingman along for the ride. Within minutes of crossing the lines I spotted a CAP of 4 x FW-190D9's descending on us to the north. I turned into them, but my inept AI wingman turned away from me during the initial pass and was separated from me before I could do anything about it. I saw his situation and turned back, but he had flown in the opposite direction and then - most politely from the German perspective - proceeded to fly straight and level http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif as a 190D9 hammered him from behind. He went down before I could even complete my turn.
This, of course, meant it was now 4 to 1. However, I'm game, I'm hip to it, man; I dig it hard! I gonna git me some! Perforate me some Krauts for breakfast!
That is, until I discovered I could not keep up with them. I kept out-maneuvering them and then dipping in behind them, but only to watch them pull away and out-climb me each time.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
That's not supposed to happen! As a result I was unable to get even a shot at them. In some cases they had the energy advantage initially, but that would not have lasted indefinitely. I should have started gaining on them, but never did.
My God, but I felt like I was flying a Zero against Corsairs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Then a second 190D9 CAP joined in. 8 to 1 now. Of course, I've been screaming for help over the R/T for some time now, but my own CAPs seem oddly disinterested, despite the fact that I had intentionally drawn the fight onto Allied turf. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Sniveling cowards...
I kept at it for a while, trying to catch some one of them - any one of them - within firing range at some point ... but they continued to out run me with ease. Also, due to their numbers, I was getting less and less time each pass to close before having to evade another imminent attack.
I called it. That was just wrong. My prop pitch was maxed, aircraft properly trimmed, external fuel tanks had been jettisoned upon seeing the first CAP coming down, fuel mix unadjustable, no supercharger settings adjustable - at least according to my computer! - flaps fully retracted, I was undamaged, radiator closed upon sight of first CAP approach.
These are the stats I have:
P-51D: MAx Speed 437 MPH (703 KPH) at 25,000ft ASL / 395 MPH (636 KPH) at 5,000ft ASL.

FW-190D9: 426 MPH (with MW50)(685 KPH) at 21,653ft ASL / 357 MPH (574 KPH) at sea level.
(A head scratching icon would be useful here, but failing that...)
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Now, therefore, one would think I should have been faster.
I have since conducted several low altitude speed tests in QMB. The best I have been able to attain is 340 MPH IAS at 3,000 ft ASL.
That is with Throttle at max, flaps fully retracted, trim balanced, radiator closed. I cannot change the supercharger setting. I have that set as ctrl + right arrow = Next Stage; ctrl + left arrow = Previous Stage. I have checked it in the control menu.

Is it something I don't know, or is it the game?

VW-IceFire
10-29-2005, 04:44 PM
Hard to say...could just be the AI cheating again. Or was it online?

Its been a while since I had a Dora chase in a Mustang but I have caught them. They are a tough opponent with their very good acceleration.

Your supercharger is automatic so don't worry about that...

CEM is on I assume? What altitude were you fighting them at?

bazzaah2
10-29-2005, 04:51 PM
Both planes are great and pretty evenly matched imo. If they held an e-advantage initially it's not always so easy or necessarily quick to get it back. By the same token I flew against some Mustangs earlier in a Dora and they really took a lot of shaking off, stuck to my 6 for ages. For AI it was really impressive, wish I'd kept a track now.

Must admit I've never got to the P51's stated max speed either but have been a few km/h off it.

ImpStarDuece
10-29-2005, 05:00 PM
Actually, the FW-190D can usually hit about 366-369 mph at sea level, the 357 figure is for planes without MW-50. Go and check out spitfireperformance.com for some translations of German flight tests. It show variations in sea-level speed from 331-370mph, depending on engine, engine pressure and whether MW-50 was fitted or not.

The same page has the P-51D doing about 368 mpg with 67" Hg, which was the maximum allowable boost pressure on 100 octane fuel. It represents a Mustang in USAAF service for about the first 6-9 months in Europe. Later clearance was given for 72" hg with 150 octane, staring in about August 1944. However, performance was only about 15 mph better at low level (381 mph).

The 395 mph figure you are looking at is usually quoed as maximum speed at 5000 feet and 72" inches manifold pressure with 150 octane fuel, not a service variant that we have in the game.

The P-51's Packard Merlin 266 puts out about 1720 hp peak horsepower at about 4000 feet at 67" Hg. Empty it weighs about 3500 kg. The Fw-190Ds Jumo 213A puts out about 2,240 hp with MW-50 at sealevel. Empty it weighs about 3600 kg. The P-51 also carries substantially more weight in fuel, even at 25%, so this roughly evens the weight up.

So the Fw-190 has much better powerloading and reasonably similar drag (its probably just a little draggier) hence better acceleration. It also climbs better initailly thanks to its better power.

Maple_Tiger
10-29-2005, 08:02 PM
I don't find it hard to catch AI doras in the QMB. However, even using WEP, catching the BF109 is almost impossible at any altitude- unless you have Alt advantage. Wich isn't historicaly correct lol.

Up high, the P-51D should have more power. Given that WEP wasn't used unless in an emergency, I still have to use it against AI BF109's, and I still can't cath them.

If this was for real, the Luftwaff wouldn't need Jet planes lol.

Or mayby the AI are still cheating?

Jetbuff
10-30-2005, 01:40 AM
I am suspecting that the tank jetisson bug is back - you lose the visual representation of the tank but not the weight.

That said, how in God's name did you expect to win a 4v1 from an E disadvantage? Barring complete incompetence on the part of your opponents (and no, not even the AI is that bad) this battle was decided before it even started.

bazzaah2
10-30-2005, 02:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
I don't find it hard to catch AI doras in the QMB. However, even using WEP, catching the BF109 is almost impossible at any altitude- unless you have Alt advantage. Wich isn't historicaly correct lol.

Up high, the P-51D should have more power. Given that WEP wasn't used unless in an emergency, I still have to use it against AI BF109's, and I still can't cath them.

If this was for real, the Luftwaff wouldn't need Jet planes lol.

Or mayby the AI are still cheating? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Weird, I've not had that problem.....and have to make an effort not to overshoot. Ok in the climb they are easily lost but would expect that. Mind you I usually fly with 25% fuel, maybe that has something to do with it. Since we can't fly to Berlin and back, don't see why anyone would use the drop tanks.

Badsight.
10-30-2005, 02:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
That said, how in God's name did you expect to win a 4v1 from an E disadvantage?. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>surely you jest ?

i go 12 v 1 & kill them all

MLudner
10-30-2005, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Hard to say...could just be the AI cheating again. Or was it online?

Its been a while since I had a Dora chase in a Mustang but I have caught them. They are a tough opponent with their very good acceleration.

Your supercharger is automatic so don't worry about that...

CEM is on I assume? What altitude were you fighting them at? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NOE: Nap of the Earth. We were skimming treetops and flying lower than church steeples. And, yeah, CEM is on; I always fly as full real as I can.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Actually, the FW-190D can usually hit about 366-369 mph at sea level, the 357 figure is for planes without MW-50. Go and check out spitfireperformance.com for some translations of German flight tests. It show variations in sea-level speed from 331-370mph, depending on engine, engine pressure and whether MW-50 was fitted or not.

The same page has the P-51D doing about 368 mpg with 67" Hg, which was the maximum allowable boost pressure on 100 octane fuel. It represents a Mustang in USAAF service for about the first 6-9 months in Europe. Later clearance was given for 72" hg with 150 octane, staring in about August 1944. However, performance was only about 15 mph better at low level (381 mph).

The 395 mph figure you are looking at is usually quoed as maximum speed at 5000 feet and 72" inches manifold pressure with 150 octane fuel, not a service variant that we have in the game.

The P-51's Packard Merlin 266 puts out about 1720 hp peak horsepower at about 4000 feet at 67" Hg. Empty it weighs about 3500 kg. The Fw-190Ds Jumo 213A puts out about 2,240 hp with MW-50 at sealevel. Empty it weighs about 3600 kg. The P-51 also carries substantially more weight in fuel, even at 25%, so this roughly evens the weight up.

So the Fw-190 has much better powerloading and reasonably similar drag (its probably just a little draggier) hence better acceleration. It also climbs better initailly thanks to its better power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very informative post, thank you so very much. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

However, I was flying the most advanced Mustang: P-51D-20NA(? Not sure off of hand that's the exact right designation). 381 MPH is still faster than 370. That just means that the speed differential is pretty much the same on the deck as it is high up, as to where the numbers I had in my quick reference book - Aircraft of WW II, by Stewart Wilson - showed a painful disparity in favor of the Mustang at low altitudes.
The gist being, that still does not really explain it. There were points where they should have pulled away, at least initially, because they had made a pass at me while I was twisting and turning to evade the other rotte, but there were others where they had been trying to cling and so had been twisting and turning with me when they lost me and I came down on their tails ... each and every time only to watch them pull away. I'd pursue, keeping a jaundiced eye on the position of the other rotte, but they would keep pulling away when even your numbers show they should not have. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

FatBoyHK
10-30-2005, 08:47 AM
FW190D9 has a better accelration. So, if both of you did some high turns and then unload youselves into a maximun accelration, D9 will pull away pretty easily. Even Mustang has a higher top speed, it will take quite some time before it can catch up.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
I am suspecting that the tank jetisson bug is back - you lose the visual representation of the tank but not the weight.

That said, how in God's name did you expect to win a 4v1 from an E disadvantage? Barring complete incompetence on the part of your opponents (and no, not even the AI is that bad) this battle was decided before it even started. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. So you're saying that mayhaps even though I had jettisoned my external tanks I may still have been flying as though they were attached. I'll do some QMB tests later...

Actually, the Dora's only had the energy advantage in the incipient moment of the furball when they were descending from their 6,100m Patrol Altitude. I negated that by turning into them - always fly aggressive, turn into your opponent and keep turning into him. I was doing fine - except for being unable to catch the rat b@stards - until that second CAP jumped in. 8 to 1 was a much more difficult situation. Of course, had I been able to catch any of them it would not have been that bad as several of the Doras in the first CAP would have been smoked (At least two of them, but then maybe more, for as their numerical advantage had been whittled down it would have gotten easier to get at the others). The first time I caught any rounds was after it had gone 8 to 1, and even then the hits were negligible. Until my Mustang went into stall mode (That being when even the slightest turn produces an immediate stall regardless of airspeed and all you can do is make the most gentle weaves from side to to side, at which point you are a sitting duck. This occurs when the program has grown exasperated at its inability to get you and so it forces you to fly straight) I was coping with all 8 of them well enough to keep them off of me. It was a matter of keeping track of where they were at all times and taking every opportunity to level off, regain speed, and move the fight farther into Allied territory while pleading with my own CAP's for help (The area I was in had a flight of P-47D's on Patrol) to no avail - Not even one "Hold on, I'm coming"! By the time I called it - after I realized I was in stall mode - I was basically just defending myself because I had realized I was not going to get a shot at any of them, especially now that I could not make a run after anyone because there were now 8 of them making passes at me.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
FW190D9 has a better accelration. So, if both of you did some high turns and then unload youselves into a maximun accelration, D9 will pull away pretty easily. Even Mustang has a higher top speed, it will take quite some time before it can catch up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure about that "pretty easily" remark, but even then some of the pursuits lasted for several minutes because the other rotte was off in the distance turning back to pursue me and it took them some time to catch-up.
Of course, how did they manage that? It just dawned on me. I should be going 381, they 370. I don't know, but according to my math teachers that shouldn't be.
I couldn't even run from that fight. I did try at points, thinking I would run west until I lost them, then turn back and try to complete my mission of reconning the roads around Koblenz (Played by Naro-Fominsk in this case), but they always caught up with me before I had gotten too far. ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
The more I'm thinking about this the worse it's looking.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Hard to say...could just be the AI cheating again. Or was it online?

Its been a while since I had a Dora chase in a Mustang but I have caught them. They are a tough opponent with their very good acceleration.

Your supercharger is automatic so don't worry about that...

CEM is on I assume? What altitude were you fighting them at? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NOE: Nap of the Earth. We were skimming treetops and flying lower than church steeples. And, yeah, CEM is on; I always fly as full real as I can. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It was offline. This was my P-51 pilot's, 2Lt. Edward Cope, next mission. He was assigned a recon mission. Always frightening, those ops; prowling low behind enemy lines with one eye on the ground and the other on the sky...

MLudner
10-30-2005, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bazzaah2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
I don't find it hard to catch AI doras in the QMB. However, even using WEP, catching the BF109 is almost impossible at any altitude- unless you have Alt advantage. Wich isn't historicaly correct lol.

Up high, the P-51D should have more power. Given that WEP wasn't used unless in an emergency, I still have to use it against AI BF109's, and I still can't cath them.

If this was for real, the Luftwaff wouldn't need Jet planes lol.

Or mayby the AI are still cheating? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Weird, I've not had that problem.....and have to make an effort not to overshoot. Ok in the climb they are easily lost but would expect that. Mind you I usually fly with 25% fuel, maybe that has something to do with it. Since we can't fly to Berlin and back, don't see why anyone would use the drop tanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Historical accuracy. But, also it was a long recon flight with the potential for hostile contact that could occur a long way from my base. In a fight you burn lots of fuel quickly, so having used only external tank reserves on the way in can make the difference as whether or not I land at my base or belly-in in some farmer's back yard.

I my last mission in this campaign Leutnant Joachim Gartner flying a 190D9 for JG26 ran out of fuel while still west of the front. I was gliding when I passed over the front and bellied-in on the banks of a river a few klicks east of the front. That would not have happened if it were possible for 190D9's to carry external fuel tanks in this game like they could in reality, which is why in my official record I made it back to Bonn-Hangelar and landed low on fuel.

robban75
10-30-2005, 09:54 AM
I haven't flown FB/AEP for at least 6 months, but back then the Mustang (D model) could do IIRC 595km/h at SL, whereas the D-9 '45 could do 613km/h. On the other hand, the 190 family suffered from a nasty speed bug which seriously hampered it between 1000 and 4000m. I wouldn't be surprised if this bug is still present. If you want to escape D-9's in a Mustang in this game, do it between these altitudes. And if you want to escape a D-9 period, take the boosted Mustang III variant.

Jaws2002
10-30-2005, 10:00 AM
I think AI is cheating again. (at least on ACE)
I think you should try the mission again with Dora instead of Mustang (D9 vs D9) and see How you do.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 10:30 AM
They were basal D9's. In campaign it is 7 Nov 44. My campaign is historical, so I can't have Cope (USAAF) flying RAF variants.

Fur Jaws:
Well, both flights of D9's would have been Late War Luftwaffe-Typical:
Average-Rookie / Average-Rookie.
I was the only Ace level pilot in the air that morning (Cope has 5 Victories).
The campaign is historical, so I can't have Cope (USAAF) flying Luftwaffe aircraft. I can try it out in a QMB run though.

By the way: I love that pic. However, I imagine it's gonna hurt some when the shark bites down on those props...

robban75
10-30-2005, 10:45 AM
The '44 D-9's can do 608km/h at SL. But judging by the speed of the '44 version and its climbing superiority over the '45 variant. It seems to be a D-9 using C3 fuel. Which acually makes it 13km/h too slow at SL according to RL charts.

SithSpeeder
10-30-2005, 10:46 AM
According to IL2-Compare, the P-51D only has a speed advantage on the FW-190D between 2000 and 4000m altitude (both fully boosted). So on the deck, the Dora is faster.

Just remember that for the P-51D, you're the fastest plane in the game at 3000m. Escape at that altitude (assuming you don't get bounced from above) if possible.

You also turn tighter at all altitudes and flap settings than the Dora.

You'll only outclimb the Dora between 2000 and 3200m.

Fly in the envelope that gives you your advantage and out of the envelope that gives the enemy his.

Oh, and as soon as you see the enemy, did you remember to command your squad to Attack All Fighters?

Hope that helps.

* _54th_Speeder *

mynameisroland
10-30-2005, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
All right, first: This is NOT a whine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif!

But, it is question. I flew a P-51D mission last weekend that was a recon flight, NOE, with only not-so-trusty wingman along for the ride. Within minutes of crossing the lines I spotted a CAP of 4 x FW-190D9's descending on us to the north. I turned into them, but my inept AI wingman turned away from me during the initial pass and was separated from me before I could do anything about it. I saw his situation and turned back, but he had flown in the opposite direction and then - most politely from the German perspective - proceeded to fly straight and level http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif as a 190D9 hammered him from behind. He went down before I could even complete my turn.
This, of course, meant it was now 4 to 1. However, I'm game, I'm hip to it, man; I dig it hard! I gonna git me some! Perforate me some Krauts for breakfast!
That is, until I discovered I could not keep up with them. I kept out-maneuvering them and then dipping in behind them, but only to watch them pull away and out-climb me each time.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
That's not supposed to happen! As a result I was unable to get even a shot at them. In some cases they had the energy advantage initially, but that would not have lasted indefinitely. I should have started gaining on them, but never did.
My God, but I felt like I was flying a Zero against Corsairs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Then a second 190D9 CAP joined in. 8 to 1 now. Of course, I've been screaming for help over the R/T for some time now, but my own CAPs seem oddly disinterested, despite the fact that I had intentionally drawn the fight onto Allied turf. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Sniveling cowards...
I kept at it for a while, trying to catch some one of them - any one of them - within firing range at some point ... but they continued to out run me with ease. Also, due to their numbers, I was getting less and less time each pass to close before having to evade another imminent attack.
I called it. That was just wrong. My prop pitch was maxed, aircraft properly trimmed, external fuel tanks had been jettisoned upon seeing the first CAP coming down, fuel mix unadjustable, no supercharger settings adjustable - at least according to my computer! - flaps fully retracted, I was undamaged, radiator closed upon sight of first CAP approach.
These are the stats I have:
P-51D: MAx Speed 437 MPH (703 KPH) at 25,000ft ASL / 395 MPH (636 KPH) at 5,000ft ASL.

FW-190D9: 426 MPH (with MW50)(685 KPH) at 21,653ft ASL / 357 MPH (574 KPH) at sea level.
(A head scratching icon would be useful here, but failing that...)
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Now, therefore, one would think I should have been faster.
I have since conducted several low altitude speed tests in QMB. The best I have been able to attain is 340 MPH IAS at 3,000 ft ASL.
That is with Throttle at max, flaps fully retracted, trim balanced, radiator closed. I cannot change the supercharger setting. I have that set as ctrl + right arrow = Next Stage; ctrl + left arrow = Previous Stage. I have checked it in the control menu.

Is it something I don't know, or is it the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at your own description of your tactics ... "I kept out-maneuvering them and then dipping in behind them, but only to watch them pull away and out-climb me each time."... you are manuvering and losing your airspeed. The Mustang does not accelerate as quickly as a Fw 190 D9 and it doesnt climb as well either.

ps where are you getting your info for the D9 sea level speed ? It hit over 600km/h at sea level in WW2 does in game too. Boosted versions were recorded at 640km/h at sea level these however are not present in game.

Estocade85
10-30-2005, 11:26 AM
*pulls out AK-47 and fires in the air*
OK I'm hijacking this thread!

During online DF game, at what alt. envelope do you usually fly the P-51D?

MLudner
10-30-2005, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
All right, first: This is NOT a whine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif!

But, it is question. I flew a P-51D mission last weekend that was a recon flight, NOE, with only not-so-trusty wingman along for the ride. Within minutes of crossing the lines I spotted a CAP of 4 x FW-190D9's descending on us to the north. I turned into them, but my inept AI wingman turned away from me during the initial pass and was separated from me before I could do anything about it. I saw his situation and turned back, but he had flown in the opposite direction and then - most politely from the German perspective - proceeded to fly straight and level http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif as a 190D9 hammered him from behind. He went down before I could even complete my turn.
This, of course, meant it was now 4 to 1. However, I'm game, I'm hip to it, man; I dig it hard! I gonna git me some! Perforate me some Krauts for breakfast!
That is, until I discovered I could not keep up with them. I kept out-maneuvering them and then dipping in behind them, but only to watch them pull away and out-climb me each time.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
That's not supposed to happen! As a result I was unable to get even a shot at them. In some cases they had the energy advantage initially, but that would not have lasted indefinitely. I should have started gaining on them, but never did.
My God, but I felt like I was flying a Zero against Corsairs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Then a second 190D9 CAP joined in. 8 to 1 now. Of course, I've been screaming for help over the R/T for some time now, but my own CAPs seem oddly disinterested, despite the fact that I had intentionally drawn the fight onto Allied turf. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Sniveling cowards...
I kept at it for a while, trying to catch some one of them - any one of them - within firing range at some point ... but they continued to out run me with ease. Also, due to their numbers, I was getting less and less time each pass to close before having to evade another imminent attack.
I called it. That was just wrong. My prop pitch was maxed, aircraft properly trimmed, external fuel tanks had been jettisoned upon seeing the first CAP coming down, fuel mix unadjustable, no supercharger settings adjustable - at least according to my computer! - flaps fully retracted, I was undamaged, radiator closed upon sight of first CAP approach.
These are the stats I have:
P-51D: MAx Speed 437 MPH (703 KPH) at 25,000ft ASL / 395 MPH (636 KPH) at 5,000ft ASL.

FW-190D9: 426 MPH (with MW50)(685 KPH) at 21,653ft ASL / 357 MPH (574 KPH) at sea level.
(A head scratching icon would be useful here, but failing that...)
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Now, therefore, one would think I should have been faster.
I have since conducted several low altitude speed tests in QMB. The best I have been able to attain is 340 MPH IAS at 3,000 ft ASL.
That is with Throttle at max, flaps fully retracted, trim balanced, radiator closed. I cannot change the supercharger setting. I have that set as ctrl + right arrow = Next Stage; ctrl + left arrow = Previous Stage. I have checked it in the control menu.

Is it something I don't know, or is it the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at your own description of your tactics ... "I kept out-maneuvering them and then dipping in behind them, but only to watch them pull away and out-climb me each time."... you are manuvering and losing your airspeed. The Mustang does not accelerate as quickly as a Fw 190 D9 and it doesnt climb as well either.

ps where are you getting your info for the D9 sea level speed ? It hit over 600km/h at sea level in WW2 does in game too. Boosted versions were recorded at 640km/h at sea level these however are not present in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WELL! IIIII NEVER!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"you are manuvering and losing your airspeed." Yeah, so were they.

The part you're quoting I was descibing situations in which while pursuing one rotte I had seen the other closing in and was forced to take evasive action to throw them. Typically after throwing them I was in a climb, ruddering my Mustang over to keep an eye on them, and then pulling myself into a dive at such an angle that I cut onto their tails. Seeing this they would nose down and run with me on their butts ... and get away.
You might note this means I was already diving at them when they were initiating their dives. Plus, being lower than me at the end of the maneuvers means they could not dive as far while trying to pick-up speed. There were cases where their initial ability to pull away was comprehensible and realistic, but those were ones where they had come in at high speed and not attempted to follow when I broke.
The evasive maneuvers I use (and I am loathe to say this here, because some of you will be flying against me online http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) are a trap designed to pull my pursuer into low speed maneuvers behind me. I keep my eye on him - or them - then pick a point where I can invert the situation and turn on them. It's a matter of timing, you see. But the cut point usually comes - I have found - when I am higher and they are in a climbing turn where I can hack throttle, use rudder to shift my vector, let my nose fall in the right direction, then punch it and come screaming down onto their tails. Other times they cause my opponent(s) to over-shoot.
There are people I have employed this against online to good effect, just each time one of their Teammates saved them because I have a most distressing tendency to find myself surrounded by badguys in friendless skies.
When it comes to AI, Aces never fall for it. They break-off and it becomes a chase. But, Veteran will sometimes. Average and Rookie are real suckers for it.
These tactics work just fine if I'm in the faster ship, or at least matched. Where they don't work is when I'm flying, say, an I-16 against 109's and such circumstances. Then they get them off of my tail, but that's about it.

Where could I post tracks? I am thinking about doing some demos of these problems in QMB. I will save them as tracks, then watch them and resave them as .ntrk files.

Please refer to Imperial Star Deuce's post on page one. His post is very authoritative. My source - already stated in a previous post, incidentally - was Aircraft of WWII by Stewart Wilson. That is my handy-dandy quick reference guide. I have other sources, but they're more complicated to use. I have cross referenced Wilson's book to them and have not found any serious discrepancies and so I view his book as useful, but not definitive as due to its scope it leaves some things out. ISD's numbers do not much contradict Wilson's, but amend them. No surprise there. Even using ISD's numbers the Mustang would have been faster.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Estocade85:
*pulls out AK-47 and fires in the air*
OK I'm hijacking this thread!

During online DF game, at what alt. envelope do you usually fly the P-51D? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See? It's situations like this that make me an opponent of gun control! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Smoothly slipping my gleaming, nickel-plated .45 Caliber Colt Peacemaker from its leather holster at my side I promptly dehijack this thread with a well-placed shot through the Kalashnikov's receiver. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I have not yet flown a Mustang online. However, I try to start high: at least 10,000 feet ASL.
The mission I am describing, remember, was a recon. I was looking for German troop movements in the vicinity of Koblenz and from Angels 10 to 20 I would not have seen much going on down there. The mission required me to fly on the deck, but my hopes to slip through undetected were sadly disappointed...

mynameisroland
10-30-2005, 02:27 PM
Its impossible to know what you did wrong without watching a track of the events but implying that the Fw 190 D9 is over modeled or that the Mustang is under modeled isnt correct.

What we do know in game is

AI cheats in every aircraft.

Fw 190 D9 has better HP/lb ratio so will accelerate/climb/recover faster than Mustang.

At low level the Fw 190D9 is simply better than the Mustang.

4 vs 1 odds is very risky against aircraft that are as good as / better than the one you are flying in.

Even a well flown Mustang can retain its Energy advantage only for a short while if you are continually manuvering.

This last point is my main observation. Your description of your dogfight suggests heavy manuvering. You would bleed speed very quickly pulling hard manuvers in the Mustang unless you stay fast while turning. Its no shame getting your *** handed to by Fw 190D9, the Mustang was not a good dogfighter below medium / high altitudes. If you fought them above 7000m you would get on much better.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
According to IL2-Compare, the P-51D only has a speed advantage on the FW-190D between 2000 and 4000m altitude (both fully boosted). So on the deck, the Dora is faster.

Just remember that for the P-51D, you're the fastest plane in the game at 3000m. Escape at that altitude (assuming you don't get bounced from above) if possible.

You also turn tighter at all altitudes and flap settings than the Dora.

You'll only outclimb the Dora between 2000 and 3200m.

Fly in the envelope that gives you your advantage and out of the envelope that gives the enemy his.

Oh, and as soon as you see the enemy, did you remember to command your squad to Attack All Fighters?

Hope that helps.

* _54th_Speeder * </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then, I would posit that it is the game. None of the sources I have show the FW-190D9 as faster than a P-51D (Incidentally, a slower version of the Mustang. The B's and C's were a bit faster due to lower drag resulting from being razorbacks) at any altitude. The one I mostly reference - see above - showed the disparity being painful on the deck. But even ISD's amendation just shrinks the gap.

But, then again (And, actually, I meant to post a thread about this as well) I have seen other oddities.
The MiG-3 was an excellent fighter at high altitudes, but it sucked low down. At altitudes greater than 23,000 or so feet it was faster and at least as maneuverable as a 109. But, once you got much below that its speed fell off rapidly and it lost maneuverability. Since most of the air-to-air combat on the EF occured at 10,000 or below the MiG-3 became rapidly disfavored by the VVS, despite improvements to the design that actually eventually made it as good down low as it was at altitude.
Not so in Il-2, I have discovered. I decided on day that I had not flown a MiG in a long time and I wanted to take one for a whirl with a 109F2 (Ace). I decided I would start the fight off at the MiG's optimal height and selected 7500m. I nearly got creamed! Immediately the engine would develop no power, black smoke was trailing from the exhaust and it was sputtering. I could not even keep it level! If I pulled the nose up it began to enter a stall because it could not generate enough power to maintain speed. After the 109 passed I turned, but the turn radius - verge of stall all the way - was so wide I would swear a fully loaded TB-3 would have turned inside of me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
I was baffled. I dodged the 109 - barely - repeatedly, but had to descend all the way down to about 15,000 ft before the engine could develop enough power to give me a chance.
I flew this scenario repeatedly over the next week, trying to find something I may have been missing, but never could get any performance at that altitude. I even tried it with no opposition and tested speed, acceleration and maneuverability from 7,500m all the way down to the deck. The results were surprising; exactly the opposite of everything I have ever read on the MiG-3.
Then I shook my head and said to myself "No wonder those MiG-3 CAP's during the Smolensk fighting back in July kept catching up with my Bf-109F4's!" (On two separate occasions I was penetrating the front lines on specific missions that did not include engaging CAP's and ran upon the Guards MiG-3's on CAP flying out of Kubinka to the east. In both cases I failed to accomplish my mission because the MiG's caught up with us and I had no choice but to turn on them)

Oh, and someone needs to tell Oleg that you can't see stars in broad daylight at 20,000 feet, or even 40,000 feet.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

bazzaah2
10-30-2005, 03:20 PM
how much fuel did you fly with? The P51 is a bit of a dog with full tanks. Try with 50% or 25%. I enjoy messing around with the P51 and Dora and can deal with both in either plane with Ace AI, though maybe at 8 to 1 I would make my excuses.

Don't see why you would take drop tanks either. None of the maps in this game are big enough to warrant their use with the Mustang. Not like you'll be flying for 6 or 7 hours.....or is it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

blackpulpit1970
10-30-2005, 03:38 PM
Send a track mate and then we can tell you what you might have done wrong, i fly the dora always online against stangs and the dora can accelerate and outclimb them most of the time.

fordfan25
10-30-2005, 03:40 PM
if its a dog fight map like afj, 334th then take 25% fuel. in coop or if your going to be flyn cap over base ect 50%. depending on plane i like to take 25% fuel and drop tanks. climb to Alt the drop the tanks.

ImpStarDuece
10-30-2005, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Actually, the FW-190D can usually hit about 366-369 mph at sea level, the 357 figure is for planes without MW-50. Go and check out spitfireperformance.com for some translations of German flight tests. It show variations in sea-level speed from 331-370mph, depending on engine, engine pressure and whether MW-50 was fitted or not.

The same page has the P-51D doing about 368 mpg with 67" Hg, which was the maximum allowable boost pressure on 100 octane fuel. It represents a Mustang in USAAF service for about the first 6-9 months in Europe. Later clearance was given for 72" hg with 150 octane, staring in about August 1944. However, performance was only about 15 mph better at low level (381 mph).

The 395 mph figure you are looking at is usually quoed as maximum speed at 5000 feet and 72" inches manifold pressure with 150 octane fuel, not a service variant that we have in the game.

The P-51's Packard Merlin 266 puts out about 1720 hp peak horsepower at about 4000 feet at 67" Hg. Empty it weighs about 3500 kg. The Fw-190Ds Jumo 213A puts out about 2,240 hp with MW-50 at sealevel. Empty it weighs about 3600 kg. The P-51 also carries substantially more weight in fuel, even at 25%, so this roughly evens the weight up.

So the Fw-190 has much better powerloading and reasonably similar drag (its probably just a little draggier) hence better acceleration. It also climbs better initailly thanks to its better power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very informative post, thank you so very much. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

However, I was flying the most advanced Mustang: P-51D-20NA(? Not sure off of hand that's the exact right designation). 381 MPH is still faster than 370. That just means that the speed differential is pretty much the same on the deck as it is high up, as to where the numbers I had in my quick reference book - Aircraft of WW II, by Stewart Wilson - showed a painful disparity in favor of the Mustang at low altitudes.
The gist being, that still does not really explain it. There were points where they should have pulled away, at least initially, because they had made a pass at me while I was twisting and turning to evade the other rotte, but there were others where they had been trying to cling and so had been twisting and turning with me when they lost me and I came down on their tails ... each and every time only to watch them pull away. I'd pursue, keeping a jaundiced eye on the position of the other rotte, but they would keep pulling away when even your numbers show they should not have. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, my numbers show that the Fw-190D is EQUAL in speed to the P-51D20NA at low lewel

P-51D 368 mph at sea level
Fw-190D 369 mph as sea level

The 395 mph figure or the P-51D is for 5000 feet, not for sea level.

The 381 mph sea level figure is for a 72" Hg Mustang, not the 66" hg Mustang we have in the game. The same is true for the 395 mph figure at 5000 feet. I have Stewart Wilsons "Aircraft of WW2" as well, and the figures he gives for the P-51D are 437 mph at 25,000 feet and 395 mph at 5000 feet. He does not give a sea level speed. Wilson is very good, but he does tend to give the most easily available data, whichm while right, is not necessarily the most corrrect for the aircraft we have in the sim.


The Fw-190 should pull about 397 mph at 5000 feet.

If anything the Fw-190D should generally be faster than the Mustang below about 20,000 feet. After that the Jumo 213 starts dropping power and the Merlins second stage supercharger is just kicking in. In my opinion the P-51D is the better fighter above about 25,000 feet, equal between about 18,000-25,000 feet and not quite as good below 15,000 feet.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bazzaah2:
how much fuel did you fly with? The P51 is a bit of a dog with full tanks. Try with 50% or 25%. I enjoy messing around with the P51 and Dora and can deal with both in either plane with Ace AI, though maybe at 8 to 1 I would make my excuses.

Don't see why you would take drop tanks either. None of the maps in this game are big enough to warrant their use with the Mustang. Not like you'll be flying for 6 or 7 hours.....or is it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Historical accuracy. But, also it was a long recon flight with the potential for hostile contact that could occur a long way from my base. In a fight you burn lots of fuel quickly, so having used only external tank reserves on the way in can make the difference as whether or not I land at my base or belly-in in some farmer's back yard.

I my last mission in this campaign Leutnant Joachim Gartner flying a 190D9 for JG26 ran out of fuel while still west of the front. I was gliding when I passed over the front and bellied-in on the banks of a river a few klicks east of the front. That would not have happened if it were possible for 190D9's to carry external fuel tanks in this game like they could in reality, which is why in my official record I made it back to Bonn-Hangelar and landed low on fuel.

I was being careful, too.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Actually, the FW-190D can usually hit about 366-369 mph at sea level, the 357 figure is for planes without MW-50. Go and check out spitfireperformance.com for some translations of German flight tests. It show variations in sea-level speed from 331-370mph, depending on engine, engine pressure and whether MW-50 was fitted or not.

The same page has the P-51D doing about 368 mpg with 67" Hg, which was the maximum allowable boost pressure on 100 octane fuel. It represents a Mustang in USAAF service for about the first 6-9 months in Europe. Later clearance was given for 72" hg with 150 octane, staring in about August 1944. However, performance was only about 15 mph better at low level (381 mph).

The 395 mph figure you are looking at is usually quoed as maximum speed at 5000 feet and 72" inches manifold pressure with 150 octane fuel, not a service variant that we have in the game.

The P-51's Packard Merlin 266 puts out about 1720 hp peak horsepower at about 4000 feet at 67" Hg. Empty it weighs about 3500 kg. The Fw-190Ds Jumo 213A puts out about 2,240 hp with MW-50 at sealevel. Empty it weighs about 3600 kg. The P-51 also carries substantially more weight in fuel, even at 25%, so this roughly evens the weight up.

So the Fw-190 has much better powerloading and reasonably similar drag (its probably just a little draggier) hence better acceleration. It also climbs better initailly thanks to its better power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very informative post, thank you so very much. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

However, I was flying the most advanced Mustang: P-51D-20NA(? Not sure off of hand that's the exact right designation). 381 MPH is still faster than 370. That just means that the speed differential is pretty much the same on the deck as it is high up, as to where the numbers I had in my quick reference book - Aircraft of WW II, by Stewart Wilson - showed a painful disparity in favor of the Mustang at low altitudes.
The gist being, that still does not really explain it. There were points where they should have pulled away, at least initially, because they had made a pass at me while I was twisting and turning to evade the other rotte, but there were others where they had been trying to cling and so had been twisting and turning with me when they lost me and I came down on their tails ... each and every time only to watch them pull away. I'd pursue, keeping a jaundiced eye on the position of the other rotte, but they would keep pulling away when even your numbers show they should not have. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, my numbers show that the Fw-190D is EQUAL in speed to the P-51D20NA at low lewel

P-51D 368 mph at sea level
Fw-190D 369 mph as sea level

The 395 mph figure or the P-51D is for 5000 feet, not for sea level.

The 381 mph sea level figure is for a 72" Hg Mustang, not the 66" hg Mustang we have in the game. The same is true for the 395 mph figure at 5000 feet. I have Stewart Wilsons "Aircraft of WW2" as well, and the figures he gives for the P-51D are 437 mph at 25,000 feet and 395 mph at 5000 feet. He does not give a sea level speed. Wilson is very good, but he does tend to give the most easily available data, whichm while right, is not necessarily the most corrrect for the aircraft we have in the sim.


The Fw-190 should pull about 397 mph at 5000 feet.

If anything the Fw-190D should generally be faster than the Mustang below about 20,000 feet. After that the Jumo 213 starts dropping power and the Merlins second stage supercharger is just kicking in. In my opinion the P-51D is the better fighter above about 25,000 feet, equal between about 18,000-25,000 feet and not quite as good below 15,000 feet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah-ha, well your post did not make that clear (Whether or not the 381 MPH speed was within the power of the in game version). It said after August 44, and I thought that would mean the D20NA variant we have and I was flying. The D variant came out earlier that year (April, wasn't it?) I believe, so with this being a D20 it should have been well down the line.

bazzaah2
10-30-2005, 04:10 PM
sure, but my point was to say that the 'stang flies much better with lower levels of fuel than with higher, that's all and given the problems you describe it may be something for you to consider.

Clearly the amount of fuel you carry in the Mustang (renowned for it's poor handling with high fuel loads but a different story when say 50% full) will affect your ability to fly on a par with an aircraft that has distinct advantages over you. That's all.

ImpStarDuece
10-30-2005, 05:11 PM
Level speed tests; (25% fuel, 10m alt, north-south runs x 2, midday, Crimea map)

P-51D20NA-605 kph, 376 mph

Mustang Mk III- 650 kph, 403 mph http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

FW 190D-9 1944- 601 kph, 373 mph

Fw-190D-9 1945- 606 kph, 376 mph

All the tests seem a little too fast, by about 5-10 mph. That is probably due to using 25% fuel weight, rather than 100%.

I will post P-51B/C, Fw-190A8/A9, P-38L/L-Late and bf-109K4/G-10/G-14 later.

Von_Rat
10-30-2005, 05:14 PM
are those with rads closed?

i get alot better with d9s with 50% fuel on my tests.

ImpStarDuece
10-30-2005, 05:37 PM
Monifold pressre readings;

P-51B 67" Hg
P-51C 67" Hg
P-51D5 67" Hg
P-51D20 67" Hg

So all the USAAF Mustangs are running at the same standard pressure levels. 72" Hg would really only represent a post August 1944 P-51D in the 8th Airforce, when permission was given to increase boost pressures on the Merlin V-1650-3 and V-1650-7 to 72" War Emergency Rating.

The post war testing of the P-51D at Inglewood, California indicates that the maximum sea level speed at 67" manifold pressure is 368 mph, or 5 mph slower than what is achieved in the game.

ImpStarDuece
10-30-2005, 05:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
are those with rads closed?

i get alot better with d9s with 50% fuel on my tests. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, those are with radiators closed.

WEP for the P-51s, and either MW-50 or EN for the 190D9.

Could you post your figures please Von_rat? I'd be interested in seeing them.

MLudner
10-30-2005, 09:16 PM
Bazaah, Friend, I was not disgreeing, just explaining why I go on ops like that. I have no doubt your point is right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I have decided on compromise. When I called it I had already decided to belly-in, but then just said "Screw it" and closed. I'll record it that way in my official record.

Points well taken, thank you all. Ultimately, even if it is a little off, it's still just a game. Shrug. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif And the best available.

Next weekend some tracks should appear somewhere ... when I figure out where to put them and have them saved.

However, that MiG-3 thing bears some examination.

luftluuver
10-31-2005, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
The P-51's Packard Merlin 266 puts out about 1720 hp peak horsepower at about 4000 feet at 67" Hg. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did Mustangs supplied to the British get the Packard Merlin 266 engine?

bazzaah2
10-31-2005, 04:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Bazaah, Friend, I was not disgreeing, just explaining why I go on ops like that. I have no doubt your point is right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I have decided on compromise. When I called it I had already decided to belly-in, but then just said "Screw it" and closed. I'll record it that way in my official record.

Points well taken, thank you all. Ultimately, even if it is a little off, it's still just a game. Shrug. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif And the best available.

Next weekend some tracks should appear somewhere ... when I figure out where to put them and have them saved.

However, that MiG-3 thing bears some examination. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep, I know m8 and good that you try and get as much accuracy/immersion as possible. You could always try the Mustang III for low level recon!

WOLFMondo
10-31-2005, 05:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
You also turn tighter at all altitudes and flap settings than the Dora.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd actually dispute that. The Dora is no Spitfire but can turn tightly in the right hands at the right speed. I can't say i've ever been out turned by a P51 in Dora at low altitudes. The P51 usually drops a wing first but as you get higher the Dora's stubby wings cause it problems gripping the air.

SithSpeeder
10-31-2005, 12:18 PM
Your experience may be true *now*, my friend.

But for the older version of IL2-Compare, it clearly shows that the P-51D can turn a little faster at all speeds (not much).

* _54th_Speeder *

Jetbuff
10-31-2005, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Actually, the Dora's only had the energy advantage in the incipient moment of the furball when they were descending from their 6,100m Patrol Altitude. I negated that by turning into them - always fly aggressive, turn into your opponent and keep turning into him. I was doing fine - except for being unable to catch the rat b@stards - until that second CAP jumped in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Surely you jest? Turning into an attacker coming in from 6100m will probably defeat the shot but hardly give you an advantage. Did you expect to catch the planes after your hard evasive? Seriously? Even if you are CoE you should be hard pressed to catch a slashing attacker after a hard, E-bleeding evasive; you'd need one hell of an acceleration advantage.

MLudner
10-31-2005, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Actually, the Dora's only had the energy advantage in the incipient moment of the furball when they were descending from their 6,100m Patrol Altitude. I negated that by turning into them - always fly aggressive, turn into your opponent and keep turning into him. I was doing fine - except for being unable to catch the rat b@stards - until that second CAP jumped in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Surely you jest? Turning into an attacker coming in from 6100m will probably defeat the shot but hardly give you an advantage. Did you expect to catch the planes after your hard evasive? Seriously? Even if you are CoE you should be hard pressed to catch a slashing attacker after a hard, E-bleeding evasive; you'd need one hell of an acceleration advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in the least. Turning into them just keeps them from getting on my tail, then forces them to turn back. The ones I was expecting to catch after hard evasive maneuvers were the ones that had followed me into them, not the ones who broke. That furball lasted for over a half hour, Friend.
In fact, if I had not been trying to rescue my idiot wingman I probably would have taken advantage of the fact they were going the other way really, really quickly to break-off and run by heading the opposite direction (Which I already was, anyway) and hoping to lose them. I was on a recon mission, a fight was about the last thing I really wanted.

Besides that, you have to remember that I thought I had an edge in airspeed. Until I looked it up afterward I had thought it was about 10 MPH, but I was probably wrong. That was also a factor in the choices I made.

But, I never expected to catch them at every turn. I have said, again and again, post after post, that there were points which I knew they should have pulled away. However, there were others, such as where we ALL had just come out of a series of tight maneuvers, or during more extended chases lasting several minutes before I was forced to break, when I thought I should have caught up.

This was a very complex furball, Dude. One of the hotest I have been in.

MLudner
10-31-2005, 05:45 PM
We need a beating a dead horse icon... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif