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View Full Version : Would IL2 constitute part of his "dream"?



Worf101
01-18-2008, 05:53 AM
Next Monday we here in the States observe the birthday of Dr. Martin Luther King. Every year I attend the local march with my kid and try and explain to him what it was like in this country in MY lifetime. Perhaps its a sign of progress but he doesn't seem to "get it". He finds it hard to believe what I and my family endured in this country in the 50's and 60's.

I show him the famous picture of the March on Washington and I tell him that one of those dark little specs in that picture is my father, his grandfather who heard that speech "live" and in living color. His eyes generally glaze over at this point.

But this whole King Day ritual got me to thinking about my life and friends and oddly enough, this game. I fly nightly in an integrated squadrons with people of different races, different religions and from other countries. In this little game I've met and "played" with folks from all over the world and for the most part, it's been fun, informative (I've learned a LOT from folks here) and cordial.

So when all is said and done, is this game helping to promote those "dreams" he spoke of so eloquently to my father and others that day? A dream where we can live together, work together, where are children can go to school together and we all be judged not by the color of our skins but by the content of our characters?

Da Worfster

Worf101
01-18-2008, 05:53 AM
Next Monday we here in the States observe the birthday of Dr. Martin Luther King. Every year I attend the local march with my kid and try and explain to him what it was like in this country in MY lifetime. Perhaps its a sign of progress but he doesn't seem to "get it". He finds it hard to believe what I and my family endured in this country in the 50's and 60's.

I show him the famous picture of the March on Washington and I tell him that one of those dark little specs in that picture is my father, his grandfather who heard that speech "live" and in living color. His eyes generally glaze over at this point.

But this whole King Day ritual got me to thinking about my life and friends and oddly enough, this game. I fly nightly in an integrated squadrons with people of different races, different religions and from other countries. In this little game I've met and "played" with folks from all over the world and for the most part, it's been fun, informative (I've learned a LOT from folks here) and cordial.

So when all is said and done, is this game helping to promote those "dreams" he spoke of so eloquently to my father and others that day? A dream where we can live together, work together, where are children can go to school together and we all be judged not by the color of our skins but by the content of our characters?

Da Worfster

Bearcat99
01-18-2008, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Worf101:
So when all is said and done, is this game helping to promote those "dreams" he spoke of so eloquently to my father and others that day? A dream where we can live together, work together, where are children can go to school together and we all be judged not by the color of our skins but by the content of our characters?
Da Worfster </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Dave like you one of the things that has so endeared me to this sim is the fact that it has become so much more than just a game. I have had the privilege over the past few years to meet some of the most wonderful folks from all over the world that, were it not for this sim and this passion, I most likely never would have met.... and that includes you.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have gained insight into life in other places that has helped to reshape some of my political and religious views, learned things that I might not have been motivated to learn otherwise, like building PCs, graphic arts, web design, aeronautical engineering, history and more...

Having said all that... I think that this sim does help to promote those things to the extent that people are willing to behave accordingly... I have seen things in here over the years however that have re enforced in my mind the idea that morality cannot be legislated and change, to be truly effective must be instituted at the grass roots level. When I first came to this community believe it or not (and mind you that was just 6 years ago), there were references to jungle bunnies and things like "How come they get a month for their history?" and "So how come there is a BET?" right here on these boards in the old PL. I'd like to think that my presence here among other folks has contributed to the enlightenment of others just as much as I have been enlightened by so many people on these boards. In the end I believe it is what we do as parents and the examples we set for our children that will have the most impact on the harvest reaped from the ideals expressed in Dr. King's March on Washington address.

Insuber
01-18-2008, 07:51 AM
Well said Bearcat.

Insuber

Hydra454
01-18-2008, 10:02 AM
Since I started playing this sim,I've been able to get to know people from all over.Some I've actually had the chance to meet.

This sim breaks down barriers very quickly because the only way to get the "job" done when flying together is to work together.This was best summed up by a 14 old kid i used to fly with that hailed from Denmark;"I hate anyone who hates my brothers.Wether my bros be white,black,brown,yellow,red or whatever.They're my brothers cause we're in this together."

This doesn't just apply to IL2,I think it applies to everything.We're in "it" together.Whatever "it" is.

general_kalle
01-18-2008, 10:08 AM
a guy from denmark http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
gotta be because of our Danish Reason and common sense http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

i agree. i have also learnt and experienced so much good by flying IL2 online.
plus this forum has been a great source to make my english as good as it is now

Crash_Moses
01-18-2008, 10:31 AM
I think anything that brings together disparate viewpoints, cultures, etc. would be a part of Dr. King's dream. The Internet is a perfect medium for this and even though it can be used to spread hate as well it also makes it easier for the rest of us to shout it down.

The World is a'shrinkin'. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

SeaFireLIV
01-18-2008, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Worf101:
So when all is said and done, is this game helping to promote those "dreams" he spoke of so eloquently to my father and others that day? A dream where we can live together, work together, where are children can go to school together and we all be judged not by the color of our skins but by the content of our characters?
Da Worfster </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Dave like you one of the things that has so endeared me to this sim is the fact that it has become so much more than just a game. I have had the privilege over the past few years to meet some of the most wonderful folks from all over the world that, were it not for this sim and this passion, I most likely never would have met.... and that includes you.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have gained insight into life in other places that has helped to reshape some of my political and religious views, learned things that I might not have been motivated to learn otherwise, like building PCs, graphic arts, web design, aeronautical engineering, history and more...

Having said all that... I think that this sim does help to promote those things to the extent that people are willing to behave accordingly... I have seen things in here over the years however that have re enforced in my mind the idea that morality cannot be legislated and change, to be truly effective must be instituted at the grass roots level. When I first came to this community believe it or not (and mind you that was just 6 years ago), there were references to jungle bunnies and things like "How come they get a month for their history?" and "So how come there is a BET?" right here on these boards in the old PL. I'd like to think that my presence here among other folks has contributed to the enlightenment of others just as much as I have been enlightened by so many people on these boards. In the end I believe it is what we do as parents and the examples we set for our children that will have the most impact on the harvest reaped from the ideals expressed in Dr. King's March on Washington address. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Being a Brit and black, it`s not quite the same here. Or it least it wasn`t as I grew up here. My father never really complained about racism or prejudice or any such and I think we had pretty good white folks around us where we were. there were the odd situations, I remember, but we were never hung up about it. Of course, even today, some areas of Britain are less tolerant than others. I learned this on my first forays out of the home city and around Britain 20 yeaars ago, yet, I was amazed at the gems that would sometime appear. Some people just aren`t used to a black face and don`t mean any harm - and it helps to speak a clear English accent. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Genrally though, Britain`s pretty good on these things.

So, for me, when I fly IL2, it`s just about flying the aircraft I love, like the Spit, for example, which represent the country I was born and grew up in. the country that fought against a greater foe and won. I never really saw myself as black, or white, but just British guy with Brit friends. Of course, i`m proud to be black, but, perhaps, refelecting the English way of understating things, I don`t need to, or even feel the need to, make a big show of it.

Naive, maybe, I guess. But I have learned to appreciate people for what they are, not colour or race. I believe it can sometimes cause more of a problem making too big a deal by having `attitude` and upsetting people than simply living among them and helping them realise that we aren`t so different. I know `attitude` is the way of a lot of kids today and it is spreading to Britain, but it can do more to put people`s backs up than help.

That doesn`t mean that I don`t appreciate what black people (and white who helped) had to go through before hand so those of us later on could have some kind of life without the door being shut in our face when trying to find a place to live.

Martin Luther King? I have great respect for the man and make sure my daughter knows of him and his bravery. I think he was pivotal for America. I don`t believe he would`ve been needed in the same way in England though as the British, well, aren`t quite the same as some of the people he had to deal with in the south in the `60s. Maybe i`m generalising too much, I apologise if I am. Though i`d love to meet him in real life. I don`t think IL2, constituted a dream at all, but it has become our own interpretation of our `dreams` for each of us.

Anyone read up on Martin Luther from the middle ages? I did when i wanted to find out if Martin Luther King`s name had any significance. It certain does and the two men were very similar even though separated by colour and about 600 years!


Hmmm... I guess this forum has become more than I at first realised.

Bearcat99
01-18-2008, 11:51 AM
Don't get me wrong.. I have always know folks on both sides of the equation as far as brothers of a lighter hue go... To get a good understanding of where the American psyche is coming from in terms of race a good film to see would be Denzel Washington's directorial debut "The Great Debators".. an EXCELLENT film. It is IMO one of the best films on American race relations of the 20th century to date. Not too heavy handed on the negative, not too over the top n the positive and done responsibly enough to get the message across as to why in the 50s & 60s there were marches riots in the streets of America.

From my understanding of human nature though, we as a race will always find differences alarming at times, but true human beings made in the first image are to be found everywhere.

Von_Rat
01-18-2008, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Worf101:
Next Monday we here in the States observe the birthday of Dr. Martin Luther King. Every year I attend the local march with my kid and try and explain to him what it was like in this country in MY lifetime. Perhaps its a sign of progress but he doesn't seem to "get it". He finds it hard to believe what I and my family endured in this country in the 50's and 60's.

I show him the famous picture of the March on Washington and I tell him that one of those dark little specs in that picture is my father, his grandfather who heard that speech "live" and in living color. His eyes generally glaze over at this point.

But this whole King Day ritual got me to thinking about my life and friends and oddly enough, this game. I fly nightly in an integrated squadrons with people of different races, different religions and from other countries. In this little game I've met and "played" with folks from all over the world and for the most part, it's been fun, informative (I've learned a LOT from folks here) and cordial.

So when all is said and done, is this game helping to promote those "dreams" he spoke of so eloquently to my father and others that day? A dream where we can live together, work together, where are children can go to school together and we all be judged not by the color of our skins but by the content of our characters?

Da Worfster </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as i read the title i thought,, how could a mere game compare in any way to dr. kings dream.

and yes im old enough to remember dr.king, and remember that even though my family had serious issues with busing, how shocked and saddened we were by his murder.

but after reading your post i must agree with everything you said.

Daiichidoku
01-18-2008, 12:39 PM
MLK never dies; he woke up in 2000

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT0yfnbpfc8

Huey FTW!

Warrington_Wolf
01-18-2008, 03:52 PM
I saw this article quite a while back on Flightsim.com and I thought that it might be relevant.
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/op-ed/ed311.htm

I usually visit several forums and none have been as vibrant and friendly as this one, it is also a good place to learn about subjects other than WW2 (although it is rather good at that). The reason is most likely because we all share a common ground, we are all interested in WW2 and aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Friendly_flyer
01-18-2008, 03:54 PM
I think Internet has been a great step in creating equality and understanding. I know it has for me. As such, this game is but a part of it, but it has been an important path into the internet community for me.

Worf,it's interesting to hear how Dr. King, a man of pivotal importance back in his day has become unimportant to your son. In Norway, we once has a minister of gender equality (yes I know, it's sound silly), saying that her job was to make her job redundant. I guess in a way that is what is happening to Dr. King.

Da_Godfatha
01-18-2008, 04:27 PM
Well Mr. Worf, times have changed.

Except for my oldest son, my kids do not know (thank goodness) what my wife and I went through in the late 60's. I grew up as "poor white trash" in the south. Typical klishees, wrong side of the track and the whole lot. We were about 14 or so when we relized our love for one another. My parents were a little shocked when I brought her home for supper the first time. I remember telling my granddad that I was in love with a black girl(calm down PC Police, she will tell you, "Honey, I was black when I married him, and I will be black when I die!"), he told me, and I have told my kids and grandkids the same, "Love does care what color you are."

We had a few hard years together, Vietnam,relatives who did not or would not understand, having to fight (and I mean FIGHT) the KKK, Black Panthers, American Nazi's and so many other nuts. But we survived.

I for one am glad that today, my children and grandchildren do not really have to worry about about mixed relationships. But I also think that they do not know or maybe even care about what we went through or did so they could be free from hate and to have equal rights. It is not perfect, we still get "looks" from some people when we go home on vacation, but it is better than back then.

The good thing about this game is, you meet a wide range of people when you fly online. Most are great people, some are not (alot like real life).

The funny thing about this game, and what I really like is, my grandson (17) flys only German birds, while his younger cousin (16) flys only British planes. So it really make no difference what color you are, in this game you can fly historical or just the planes you like.

I myself remember when Mr.King was killed. I was in the bush in Nam with my Brother-in-law. We both cried, because we knew a great man was taken from us.

GF

Loco-S
01-18-2008, 06:40 PM
I never understood the Racist thing, I grew up in Peru, where the thing is totally a melt pot, nobody judges you for your race, but for your "family" as in good education, bad education, which neighborhood you live in, what school your parents went, etc, the situation down there is more of "lets party" beer makes everybody a buddy,I was part of a minority, socially and economically, down there people strive to have the education that will make him obtain a good job, and as a rule, people there have better comprehension of the world as a socio economic entity as opposed to as " my race is better than thou", when I came to the US, I got shocked to see the different approach to life they have here, no body cares much for education as much as to have a "normal job", you can get a job anytime, anywhere, no matter how smart or dumb you are, they are quite scared of the PC thing, no body can speak freely about what do they think, there are nutjobs all over the place claiming they have the "truth" no matter how far out it is, including some white supremacist type of ******s I have met here, I have no idea how low is their education level to think they are "better" just because of melanine levels on their skin, I have met good and bad, but I believe there is still a lot to be done in terms of educating people, instead of playing the victim/opressor stuff I see every day, and stop punishing people for saying what they think, instead of integrating everybody as an educated country where everybody belongs, as it should be.

Monterey13
01-18-2008, 07:18 PM
I think the internet in general does a lot to represent his dream. We all play, chat, trade with, argue with everyone no matter what their race, religion or whatever.We find people who have the same interests as us, and enjoy spending time with them. I think that is what he wanted to get across...live together, and enjoy each others' company, for who they are...not what color they are. He was a great man.

What I have to say next may offend some of my friends in here, but I don't mean to offend, and I am a strong believer in speaking my mind.

I personally have a problem with the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday. Now wait a minute...it's not because it's a black holiday or anything. It's because of the way it was done. We used to have Lincolns' birthday and Washingtons' birthday. Those two holidays were merged together to open a slot for Dr. King. Now we just have Presidents Day. As great a man as Dr. King was, he was not a President.

My opinion...for what it's worth, is that we could have kept the two holidays we had, honoring those two great men...AND... added Dr. Kings' day as well. It just doesn't sit right to me. It's like a new baby brother being born on my birthday, and my parents moving my birthday to coincide with my older brother, to make room for the younger one.

It may be hard to understand, but it's how I feel. Why couldn't we honor all of them with their own days? Only reason I can come up with, is that they only wanted to allow so many days a year for holidays, so they felt they had to merge two, to add another.

Worf, my friend, in a way I think it's good that your son had to be told about Dr. King. Sure he needs to know about the history of what your race had to go through, but maybe his lack of understanding just means that things have gotten better to the point that it is harder for the young ones to comprehend. I wish we all could live in a world where the younger generations didn't have to know how bad it used to be. Since the real world isn't like that, then I think knowing what has been overcome will help them to strive that much more to become productive members of society. I know I have raised my children right, because I have never dwelled on the past, like some of the hard set in their ways people I know. Brainwashing kids has got to stop sometime.

Thanks for listening,
Monty

roybaty
01-18-2008, 08:14 PM
Well I believe his dream lives on whenever race isn't used to judge a person, whether it be in an online forum or in RL.

I myself am mixed (mother was white/father was African by way of Jamaica) though many regard me as white (I have a shaven head, and am really pale) I have never been the recipient of racism but have witnessed it. I've had people go on and on to my face not knowing my background about how inferior non "European" races were.

I also have a co-worker who is mixed European/Native American (6' blond hair, blue eyed) who has similar experiences.

It is in a way disturbing but funny as it shows how foolish the idea of racial purity is.

Sorry for the rambling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

knightflyte
01-19-2008, 01:01 AM
I think anything we do as a people that lets us see past race, creed, colour, or religion is part of fulfilling that dream.

Anything we do to look past the 'sins' of our fathers, and past our own 'sins' and thus see detrimental effects those 'sins' have had on us is fulfilling that dream.

I believe IL2 has been an instrument as such. The community is diverse, and intelligent. Different perspectives allow for greater learning... greater understanding.... and greater accomplishment for that dream.

ViktorViktor
01-19-2008, 02:12 AM
Worf, I think you might have come upon something big here.

Here when we game online or participate in forum discussions, we come to know each other first from the gaming perspective. We meet people who share the same interests, and form opinions of each other based mainly upon this common interest, not race or nationality.

We come to know the person's personality before we become aware of their race, sex, or religion!

Wow! And to think this sort of thing is happening world-wide. Alot of kids are growing up today, and making friends on this basis.

BrotherVoodoo
01-19-2008, 10:14 AM
I was also raised with out knowing racism. I have always felt love for all, regardless of skin tone. Worf, our squad is living proof that MLK's dream is alive.

"So when all is said and done, is this game helping to promote those "dreams" he spoke of so eloquently to my father and others that day? A dream where we can live together, work together, where are children can go to school together and we all be judged not by the color of our skins but by the content of our characters?
"

A resounding yes IMO.

horseback
01-19-2008, 11:13 AM
I think this forum and Il-2's community is very much what Dr. King was aiming for: people being seen for what they say & what they do rather than for what they look like.

I was struck by Seafire's line: "Some people just aren`t used to a black face and don`t mean any harm - and it helps to speak a clear English accent."

The problem for most of us human beings is not skin color. It is the mere fact that someone is <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">different.</span>

Wearing similar clothing, speaking the local (or a related) dialect, doing anything that emphasises our common humanity does a lot to calm the old tribal reflexes developed when any outsider was likely to be a threat.

Conversely, emphasising one's differences with the local majority and demanding acceptance 'just because' is the wrong way to go about making friends & influencing people.

Here, we have no other means of judging people than by what they say or do within the community not least because we share an interest and keep our differences on a (generally) intellectual level. We hear no accents, we see no skin color, we smell no coffee, beer, cigarettes, or seafood from each others' breath, and we don't make judgements on that basis.

I think Dr. King would approve.

cheers

horseback

Dance
01-19-2008, 11:29 AM
I'd like to think it is, I have experience much the same thing in racing sims too. Believe me I know what it's like to be 'different' or on the 'outside', I'm Welsh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

stalkervision
01-19-2008, 12:03 PM
Bearcat<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When I first came to this community believe it or not (and mind you that was just 6 years ago), there were references to jungle bunnies and things like "How come they get a month for their history?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You got to be kidding! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif What no "spear chuckers"? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I once worked for a black community center. I found racism is a two way street believe it or not. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I was honored by being rewarded the unofficial title of "White African" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe it's because I have a sh-tload of natural rhythm.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

a few people there didn't like me getting too friendly with "the sisters"... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

I_KG100_Prien
01-19-2008, 12:03 PM
My father raised me to believe that there is only one "Race" on this planet, and it's the "Human Race". We all have thoughts, loves, hates, dreams, and our skin color doesn't mean a thing.

It's how I am raising my daughter, and so far she's a sweet little child who loves everybody who doesn't do her wrong.. And those who have done her some wrong she is quick to forgive. I hope she stays that way, but only time will tell.


All this PC stuff is a bunch of horse-pucky. I get so sick of the Black/White debate. I can't stand the double standards that some in particular movements want.

Dr. King did a great thing, and worked hard to open peoples eyes, and start work on correcting a wrong that should never have been there, and should not exist on the levels it does today.

stalkervision
01-19-2008, 12:19 PM
The whole topic of blacks in america is a strange convuluted saga if one looks into past history. Did you know that almost all slaves were sold into bondage to white traders by african's themselves from wars between various african tribes! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Lots of blacks in america under the British crown before the revolution were also free men.

and don't even get me going about the Indian peoples of america.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Bearcat99
01-19-2008, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
The whole topic of blacks in america is a strange convuluted saga if one looks into past history. Did you know that almost all slaves were sold into bondage to white traders by african's themselves from wars between various african tribes! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Lots of blacks in america under the British crown before the revolution were also free men.

and don't even get me going about the Indian peoples of america.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK lets keep this on track shall we....... this could go off..... so .. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

stalkervision
01-19-2008, 04:07 PM
what you don't like indians? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Only kidding. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ya sure... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DuxCorvan
01-19-2008, 06:02 PM
I'm a Yorkshire Terrier, and nobody here has ever noticed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Come on, guys. Human races don't exist. Just regional variations. Like color of the eyes, shape of the ears, length of the butt crack, or size and consistence of the penís, which for some unknown reasons seems to be larger in the north of Spain.

Only ugly chicks and too handsome guys deserve segregation.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Whirlin_merlin
01-20-2008, 03:32 AM
The other day I was teaching a biology lesson to a year 7 class (10year olds) about variation.

I asked the kids for examples a variation in people. I got the usual responses, hair colour, height etc when one kid goes 'skin colour'. Now bear in mind this is Norfolk so another kid goes 'but we're all white.'. Then one of the others chirped in 'no we're not white, we're all sorts of colours.'
I decided to run with this so we all lined up to form a line which had a gradual spectrum of skin tone.
The general feeling amoungst the kids was that if none of us really were white then the idea of discriminating once the colour of your skin went past some line of darkness was really stupid.
Strange how a bunch of kids can see something that so many adults can't.

LEBillfish
01-20-2008, 11:08 AM
As much as it might be nice to think something as innocent as this sim could be testament to progress, unfortunately annonymous chat and play doesn't as "clearly" demonstrate it as personal face to faces...

However that said, I believe things "have changed", and wherein "tolerance" of other races and cultures was one time the norm simply being restrained courtesy, I do believe now that prejudice in any form is not tolerated by most (though sadly most still do it), and tolerance of those prejudice is no longer tolerated.

Honestly, I believe most now a days actually must "work" to be prejudice wherein before for many it was a true culturally ingrained mindset. Though the youth of today has an almost impossible time trying to grasp years past....I'm not so sure in this case that is such a "bad" thing.

I say that, contrary to "forget the past condemned to repeat it"....In that for most now ignorant of those times frankly do not have that info to draw from in their own assesments. What that translates to is an absolute lack of understanding as to why they should be racist, or bitter just or not.....Simply not getting it so through ignorance losing believed valid reason to hate others based on culture/race/etc.. Naturally however days past do need to be remembered, yet perhaps more in the light of not "your kind was this way", yet "look at this example of how not to be".

Personally I believe it will take the passing of older generations (say 30 and up) to really see a true difference.....Yet without question the world has come a very long way, and though this sim may not be "proof" as to that dream, it may very well promote it as you say Worf only exposure to others will prove out the similarities and valuable positive differences.

In the end, haters like it or not too bad so sad for you.....The dream is becoming, and will be a reality. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Hope I'm here to see it.

foxyboy1964
01-20-2008, 11:25 AM
New forms of racism replace the old ones. Here in the UK the current world situation is causing an increase in the amount of suspicion shown to people of a certain ethnic group, and I'm sure that in other parts of the world children are learning to hate whites/blacks/Europeans/Americans. As time goes on this will become more ingrained.

I'm not optimistic when it comes to the likelyhood of the human race ever getting it's act together. It would be nice if MLK's dream came true, but I'm not holding my breath.

LEBillfish
01-20-2008, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
I'm not optimistic when it comes to the likelyhood of the human race ever getting it's act together. It would be nice if MLK's dream came true, but I'm not holding my breath. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, some (few) folks have learned to tolerate me....SO just proves anything is possible http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

foxyboy1964
01-20-2008, 11:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Hey, some (few) folks have learned to tolerate me....SO just proves anything is possible http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'm trying...but you don't make it easy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I_KG100_Prien
01-20-2008, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
As much as it might be nice to think something as innocent as this sim could be testament to progress, unfortunately annonymous chat and play doesn't as "clearly" demonstrate it as personal face to faces...

However that said, I believe things "have changed", and wherein "tolerance" of other races and cultures was one time the norm simply being restrained courtesy, I do believe now that prejudice in any form is not tolerated by most (though sadly most still do it), and tolerance of those prejudice is no longer tolerated.

Honestly, I believe most now a days actually must "work" to be prejudice wherein before for many it was a true culturally ingrained mindset. Though the youth of today has an almost impossible time trying to grasp years past....I'm not so sure in this case that is such a "bad" thing.

I say that, contrary to "forget the past condemned to repeat it"....In that for most now ignorant of those times frankly do not have that info to draw from in their own assesments. What that translates to is an absolute lack of understanding as to why they should be racist, or bitter just or not.....Simply not getting it so through ignorance losing believed valid reason to hate others based on culture/race/etc.. Naturally however days past do need to be remembered, yet perhaps more in the light of not "your kind was this way", yet "look at this example of how not to be".

Personally I believe it will take the passing of older generations (say 30 and up) to really see a true difference.....Yet without question the world has come a very long way, and though this sim may not be "proof" as to that dream, it may very well promote it as you say Worf only exposure to others will prove out the similarities and valuable positive differences.

In the end, haters like it or not too bad so sad for you.....The dream is becoming, and will be a reality. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Hope I'm here to see it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


As much as this pains me, I have to say I agree 100% http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

leitmotiv
01-20-2008, 02:12 PM
Without a doubt, MLK, a pacifist, would be appalled by people coming together to virtually kill!

Without integration we have always been able to combine to kill.

Bearcat99
01-20-2008, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Without a doubt, MLK, a pacifist, would be appalled by people coming together to virtually kill!

Without integration we have always been able to combine to kill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt if he would be appalled.. I think there would be a lot more things that would appall him over the past few decades than video games..

leitmotiv
01-20-2008, 07:19 PM
Give me a break. A believer in nonviolence, in passive resistance would, of course, consider violent wargames appalling, as do many of his political heirs.

Bearcat99
01-20-2008, 07:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Give me a break. A believer in nonviolence, in passive resistance would, of course, consider violent wargames appalling, as do many of his political heirs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look man.. I am not going to turn this thread into a personal debate on the issue between you and I ... but I think appalled is a bit too strong.. opposed to.. yeah perhaps... maybe thinking that it is a waste of precious time considering some of the other far more important issues going on in the world today.... yeah perhaps.. but appalled? I just don't think so... and I am entitled to that opinion.. I think the term appalled would be more accurately applied to some of the other things going on in the world today than video games, here in the U.S. and abroad that I am afraid I have neither the time nor the space (Since I would have to lock my own thread.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif) to go into. So we can agree to disagree on that and let it go.