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View Full Version : Should the P-39 have a different FM for PF???



mortoma
09-30-2004, 12:50 PM

horseback
09-30-2004, 02:30 PM
Late model 'Cobras were modified and improved with the help of the Soviets, but they were quite pleased with the performance of the Airacobra Mk I/P-400 model, which was the first version they received, without modification. This was essentially the same aircraft that was initially rushed to New Guinea and the Solomons for USAAF units in early/mid 1942.

USAAF operators in the Pacific had a maintenance/tactical nightmare in the first 9 months or so of the war, and didn't use the right tactics for the 'Cobra initially. Also, the Japanese learned quickly that the P-39's performance dropped off rapidly above 12,000 ft, and simply maintained the initiative by staying high, where the Zero outperformed the 'Cobra and the P-40.

The performance wasn't that different from the versions used by the Russians, but the fight in the Pacific was fought at higher altitudes than in Eastern Europe.

The bulk of the P-39's problems in the Pacific were due to maintenance problems, like the late war Luftwaffe and early war VVS, and we know how they work in Il-2 FB/AEP. It would be inconsistant to include random mechanical problems for some aircraft in PF.

cheers

horseback

VW-IceFire
09-30-2004, 02:54 PM
Sometime between 1.22 and 2.04 the P-39's FM was changed a bit. Its roll rate is much slower and its spin stall is back (I think 1.1 removed it).

I think the P-39D and the P-400 we'll probably not notice much difference. Minor things, maximum top speed, and other things will be different but otherwise the same.

I look forward to the P-400 actually...a 20mm Hispano cannon instead of the 37mm would be nice.

carguy_
09-30-2004, 03:37 PM
Soviets did report that they had lightened P39 becuz they weren`t happy with the performance even if mopst fight in ETO happened below 5000m.Hence P39D should be heavier and performance should change maybe not radically but noticebly.

For worse.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BfHeFwMe
09-30-2004, 04:39 PM
It wasn't manouverability the pilots hated, it was the short range, exposed engine, and poor high altitude performance. Taking even a small hit in a liquid cooled unprotected rear engine was a death sentence over the vast seas and jungle terrain, whereas other planes could survive it far better. There were some pilots who had good success in cobras, like George Welch.

Chuck_Older
09-30-2004, 04:55 PM
They also feared the engine moving forward in a crash, as well as the propeller sahft under the seat.

Unfounded fears, but still, the aircraft was unpopular.

VW-IceFire
09-30-2004, 05:03 PM
Lots of reasons to be unpopular:
- Gun configuration had 3 types of guns all with different trajectory
- Vulnerable engine
- Center of gravity in an odd position leading to spin stalls
- Bad performance above 12,000 ft
- Tricycle landing gear took some getting used to initially

I think they had a host of relaibility problems and other issues. Its manuverability wasn't that bad actually...its turn was better than the 109's which made it work for the Russians...that and the fact that it was available. I've read that the Russians also ran the Allisons to their max for best performance even if it meant killing the engine.

mortoma
09-30-2004, 05:34 PM
Well you guys seem to know more about it than me.
But I think it's a good poll anyway.

Tater-SW-
09-30-2004, 06:13 PM
Wouldn't the "car door" on the side be tough to open into the slipstream making egress, um, difficult? If that were the case, pilots wouldn't like that either.

tater

karost
09-30-2004, 10:30 PM
"In the game", I think that is not a problem, Our old-hand's red friends know how to use p-39, p-40 to apply hi-speed attack or hit&run or BnZ eat Zero easy.... in FP situation Zero team will act as defensive role only. Oh... and Zero team have to meet a new .50 M2 (AP).... That not easy job for Zero friends http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

One who join in Zero team would be a challenging man and I respect all of them. S~

If you see p-39 make turning dance with Zero, well... that p-39's pilot is a noob for sure.

S!

RedSpar
09-30-2004, 11:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Wouldn't the "car door" on the side be tough to open into the slipstream making egress, um, difficult? If that were the case, pilots wouldn't like that either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-39 door had an emergency release lever which you pulled which completely release it from all its hinges and it just fell away. Egressing was actually quite easy as you could just roll off the wing once the door was gone (And pray you didn't smack the rear stabilizer)

Kwiatos
10-01-2004, 03:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:

Also, the Japanese learned quickly that the P-39's performance dropped off rapidly above 12,000 ft, and simply maintained the initiative by staying high, where the Zero outperformed the 'Cobra and the P-40.

The performance wasn't that different from the versions used by the Russians, but the fight in the Pacific was fought at higher altitudes than in Eastern Europe.

horseback <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont count on it. P-39 and P-40 in AEP have still good performance at high alt. When i figh with them above 5km level in my Bf 109 F-4 i dont feel that their performance (expecially climb rate) drop like should. Some times ago my SQN 303 fly in Cobra N-1 agaist some good SQN in Bf 109 G-2 coop mission. Figh was at about 6-7 km and our Cobras shooted down all Bf 109 G-2. In Real Life we wouldn't have any chance with them in these alt.

PikeBishop
10-01-2004, 04:25 AM
I must admit that looking at the PF aircraft list I think the japs are going to have a rough time. The great advantage that the Zero's had will be lost as everyone by now knows how to counter it. The Ki43 will be fine for the first 6 months of the war but both it and the A6M's will suffer from structural weaknesses, so it is hard to see how the Japs can be as effective as they should be (we need the Ki44). The George will be great when it is flyable. The Ki61 is a good all-rounder but will be hard pushed against F4u's and P51's so thank God Oleg has kept the Ki84 in good shape. I just hope PF does not become a 'turkey shoot' from Dec 8th 1941 onwards. I am sure Oleg is working for more Japanese representatives.

regards,

SLP

ElAurens
10-01-2004, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PikeBishop:
I just hope PF does not become a 'turkey shoot' from Dec 8th 1941 onwards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think "turkey shoot" is pretty much going to be the description for the whole thing. At least online. At best some of the late war Japanese aircraft(Ki84-Ki100) should have rough parity with the Allied types. And that is about all. The early war Japanese supremacy will not be evident in the sim.

actionhank1786
10-01-2004, 10:31 AM
I do think it will be extremely difficult for Japanese problems in the game.
American pilots now know that to stay alive, they're going to have to team up, and not turn fight with the Japanese planes. Something that was slow learned, so i dont know how it's going to be to fly Japanese.

BSS_Goat
10-01-2004, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by actionhank1786:
American pilots now know that to stay alive, they're going to have to team up, and not turn fight with the Japanese planes. Something that was slow learned, so i dont know how it's going to be to fly Japanese. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think w/ the Discovery Wings promotion and this being a new game, you will have a massive influx of T&B new guys. They will be easy pickings for the Japanese when it first comes out.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2004, 10:57 AM
We'll all have to wait and see, but I'd say there should be a *marked* difference in performance. The Pacific P-39s and P400s should be heavier, and should hit their performance ceiling lower. (Same thing should be true, incidentally, for a PF vs. a FB Buffalo). If the Pacific Fighters P-39 is as good as the FB P-39, it'll just be another of MANY examples of poor attention to detail by the Maddox design team where it counts: in the simulation and the flight modeling.

Ankanor
10-01-2004, 11:12 AM
Well, those pilots who know how to fight the Zero&Co. will give the IJN pilots a hard time.

But few are they http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif,
so few in ranks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

And there a re quite a few men out there who fly Zero and fly it well. There are aces and rookies everywhere. Yes, it won't be the same like in RL, but it won't be a turkey shoot either. online, I thnk will will have less pure dogfights with both sides riding fighters only. Assuming a well thought map, with both teams trying their best to sink the other team's carrier, more teamwork will be present, stopping the enemy airstrike will be more important, and pure fighter vs. fighter tactics will not be possible. and by the way, if you look at the navy battles, the Zero does not score so good to be dubbed invincible. Except for the Midway TB massacre.

mortoma
10-01-2004, 06:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by actionhank1786:
American pilots now know that to stay alive, they're going to have to team up, and not turn fight with the Japanese planes. Something that was slow learned, so i dont know how it's going to be to fly Japanese. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think w/ the Discovery Wings promotion and this being a new game, you will have a massive influx of T&B new guys. They will be easy pickings for the Japanese when it first comes out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

El wrongo senor!! Wrong because there are probably only a hand full of people who can even get Discovery Wings Channel. About the only people who can get are those with satellite dishes. I have begged my cable company to broadcast it, to no avail. Very few cable systems have the channel available, so it won't draw many newcomers to the game.

Daiichidoku
10-01-2004, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:



El wrongo senor!! Wrong because there are probably only a hand full of people who can even get Discovery Wings Channel. About the only people who can get are those with satellite dishes. I have begged my cable company to broadcast it, to no avail. Very few cable systems have the channel available, so it won't draw many newcomers to the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Build the promotion, and they will come.

BlakJakOfSpades
10-03-2004, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kwiatos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:

Also, the Japanese learned quickly that the P-39's performance dropped off rapidly above 12,000 ft, and simply maintained the initiative by staying high, where the Zero outperformed the 'Cobra and the P-40.

The performance wasn't that different from the versions used by the Russians, but the fight in the Pacific was fought at higher altitudes than in Eastern Europe.

horseback <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont count on it. P-39 and P-40 in AEP have still good performance at high alt. When i figh with them above 5km level in my Bf 109 F-4 i dont feel that their performance (expecially climb rate) drop like should. Some times ago my SQN 303 fly in Cobra N-1 agaist some good SQN in Bf 109 G-2 coop mission. Figh was at about 6-7 km and our Cobras shooted down all Bf 109 G-2. In Real Life we wouldn't have any chance with them in these alt. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if u looked at the original topic post ud see that these are not indeed the same airacobras that horseback is referring to. the ones used by the russians and the ones used by us in the pacific are different in several ways. one of these was they were much lighter, so it makes sense they'd do better up high. i think the airacobras should have been shredded in the situation you gave however, but as far as p-40s these are also probably different versions in game than the ones horseback is referring to. we have an e and an m i believe, i dont think these were the most common versions that the japanese encountered, of course i could be wrong. but to simply say its wrong in AEP is overlooking several things.