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Aero_Shodanjo
11-03-2004, 08:50 AM
Hi all.

Thought it would be fun at first...

I set up a QMB mission using various planes from various nationalities. Simply put, there were American, British, French and Russian on the Allies' side vs. German, Japanese, Italy and Hungary on the Axis' side. All set to ace.

And then everyone engaged. I decided to watch from the outside and let the comp do the fighting. It was a truly world air war with voices from various nationalities, babbling all over, with all kind of planes etc... And as I said before, it was fun. At first.

Then I heard the sound of desperate pilot trying to evade his enemy, again, in various language such as:

"Jump! Hit the silk"

"My plane on fire!"

"Need help over here!"

and the scream... Cant forget their screams...

Then in my screen I saw a Mustang with its left wing missing, spinning towards the ground. A Hayate on fire, its engine burning. A Dora crashed in mid air with an La7, A Spitfire blew up... Deaths and destructions...

It wasnt fun anymore. It was horror to watch with all the voices and screaming. Imagining that it was such a terrible way to die, trapped and burned alive in the cockpit, crashing on your enemy, get hit by cannon fire that blew the plane to bits...

In the end I wasnt so sure what I was done. There wasnt clear victor. A few planes from each sides returned to their own bases. Almost all that returned got damaged from the fight. Crippled planes landed and even a few that survived the fight never got back to the base. Some crashed on their way back.

Then Im thinking that how we (or atleast myself) saw what happened in the air some sixty years ago as glorious battles. The air to air combat in WWII. The pilots' voices and screams, from all languages made me aware that these "glorious battles" are actually far from the truth.

It was a war. World War II in the air. And it's such a horrible moment for mankind from many nations be it on the ground, sea or air. And this sim made me realize that even more.

Oh well, sorry for being too sentimental, perhaps. But I just thought of sharing it to you all.

Thanks.

T_O_A_D
11-03-2004, 09:02 AM
Been there done that, Its an awaking for sure, Now have you seen the new Movie Ipromise (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=65710358&m=7611094632) Yet? It will make you feel the same way. Thers another one I'm Looking can't remember its name. It used COD with it aswell.

SeaFireLIV
11-03-2004, 09:12 AM
Yes, Aero_Shodanjo. This is partly why I fly sims like IL2, in respect of the horror they were forced to go through. It wasn`t fun, it wasn`t jolly, men, cried, crapped and peed themselves at the thought of what might soon happen.

I was reminded again at Man`s ability to face the unimaginable when I took part in a battle against Kamikazes, watching them insanely plough into a battleship below...
Then I watched the REAL footage of such acts with REAL HUMAN BEINGS! All this gives me great respect (even for the Kamikazes) and for whatever misguided reasons they were flying for, I respect them all.

That`s why i get annoyed when some kid pops up and says, `Oleg! It`s boring because 10 X speed doesn`t get me to the target quick enuff! It`s no fun!"

It shouldn`t be about fun, it should be an experience! I suppose if the experience and realism is respectful enough, it may be a sort of... `fun`.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Shock.jpg
Shock n awe.

scootertgm
11-03-2004, 09:31 AM
I watched a documentary once about a P47 pilot. In the course of his story to told of how he and the other two pilots in his tent refused to let a new pilot come in to setup a bunk as they got tired of not having them come home.

He spoke of riding a "Flamer" back over the lines as he heard the Germans were shooting Chutes.

The way he described it and the emotions he showed gave me a whole new respect.

Jumoschwanz
11-03-2004, 09:36 AM
I happened to be re-reading Wing Leader. There is a part where Johnnie Johnson is trying to coach a Spit pilot back over the channel who's plane is missing part of a wing and the canopy is stuck so he can't bail. Johnson could see the pilot trying to undo the canopy, and had to watch the plane dive in and disappear under the channels water.

In William Dunn's Fighter Pilot there is a lot on how badly burned pilots were bailing out of planes with engine fires. One pilot thought he was doing well until he left the hospital for the first time and got on a bus. A woman said loud enough for him to hear "How awful and inhuman he looks, they should not allow him to be out with other poeple". Never again while Dunn was at the hospital with his own injuries did he see the man, an Aussie, leave the grounds.

Once, when FB first came out I showed it to my old neighbhor Pete Amsler, who has many, many hours in B-17s, and had half his co-pilot's head removed by flak in the seat next to him over Europe. He is in his mid-eighties now. I don't think I will show him the sim now. When he first saw it he thought it was interesting to watch the guages in the cockpit and see how the P-47 responded, as he had flown P-51s, P47s and others. But when he watched the game running a combat mission with B-17s and others in flames spiraling down he didn't say a word, and I couldn't feel any positive air in the room.

So it is a wonderful sim. Letting us learn the history of WWII and maybe letting us non-pilots catch maybe just a glimpse of flying , and getting poeple together all over the world on online servers and forums. Maybe it will make some "gamers" think more of what a horror war is, and help us not to rush to it pre-emptively, You know the rules no Politics!!!!!!!!!!!

Jumoschwanz

MEAKO
11-03-2004, 09:44 AM
By playing this game we can in a small way appreciate how difficult and dangerous it was to fly in combat and how certain missions were virtually a suicide mission but men still tried to carry them out .

One of the worst things we can do is to forget what they did in our name.

jameo
11-03-2004, 09:47 AM
right on jumo.

Mrshrink
11-03-2004, 09:51 AM
This little comment applies here how???

Edited out the Political rant from above quote.

T_O_A_D
11-03-2004, 10:08 AM
Jumoschwanz I enjoyed your entire Post until you had to push the limit, and break the rules. Please don't again.

Chuck_Older
11-03-2004, 10:26 AM
This always fascinates me...we as grownups have the ability to tell the difference between 'fantasy' and 'reality'. Even as children we had a pretty firm grasp on that, although we didn't know what the concept was.

Basically, reality was stuff you didn't want to do as a kid, and fantasy was fun. Most kids would pee in their pants and cry and scream if they really saw a kitty-cat get chopped up by a saw, but when we watched Tom And Jerry as kids, we knew that it wasn't really real, and we laughed when Tom got sliced up into several parts.

This is not an example of de-sensitising. I hate that term, It's been invented, near as I can tell, by the PC 'think of the children' crowd who want to change human nature. Nobody I know wanted to drop an anvil on an animal's head after watching a Road Runner cartoon. And if they did, that child would also exhibit the traits of a sociopath, I am sure.

This is a type of game called a simulation. If for some reason you cannot divorce the reality of painful, horrific death from this fantasy called Il2:Forgotten Battles, then quite seriously, you shouldn't play it until you explore why you feel that way.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-03-2004, 10:28 AM
Hi,

Going off on a tangent a little here but the laws of probablity do not deny us the (Manhunt-style) situation where someone will be on the news who has killed people by fitting guns to an aircraft and shooting them up because they 'were desensitised and influenced by this horrific shooter wargame Il-2'.

More seriously, you are correct; war is a particularly unpleasant time interdispersed with some astounding stories of humanity.

I think, in some respects, that's why Il-2 is so immersive, particularly offline because you find yourself surrounding by the sights and sounds that you've read pilots recounting in their memoirs.

Cheers,
Norris

Chuck_Older
11-03-2004, 10:43 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That is a possibility. But that's a situation that society today loves- somebody has to take blame, and the perpetrator is a 'victim' of Il2. I don't buy the cult of victimhood at all. If somebody did that, it was because their brain was wired wrong from the factory, not because they saw Il2. Il2 gets the blame in that situation because simply saying the person's a sociopath doesn't satisfy today's world, because we want to be able to point fingers and say somebody else is responsible.

Legal terms pervert things too much. Did you know that 'insanity' is not even a clincal term? It's a legal term http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif When I learned that (in a law class in college) I almost burst a blood vessel. Too bad I didn't, I could have sued http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
11-03-2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Legal terms pervert things too much. Did you know that 'insanity' is not even a clincal term? It's a legal term http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif When I learned that (in a law class in college) I almost burst a blood vessel. Too bad I didn't, I could have sued http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If what you say is true, that`s pretty interesting...

NorrisMcWhirter
11-03-2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That is a possibility. But that's a situation that society today loves- somebody has to take blame, and the perpetrator is a 'victim' of Il2. I don't buy the cult of victimhood at all. If somebody did that, it was because their brain was wired wrong from the factory, not because they saw Il2. Il2 gets the blame in that situation because simply saying the person's a sociopath doesn't satisfy today's world, because we want to be able to point fingers and say somebody else is responsible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course - it's always someone else's fault.

That way, you can get money out of them whilst covering your own ****...surely an important lesson in legal classes, too? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Society is certainly on a downhill track if people are no longer be held accountable for their own actions but can escape punishment by exploiting loopholes in laws (or unwritten rules concerning common sense).

Sad state of affairs, really.

Cheers,
Norris