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Hunde_3.JG51
04-05-2005, 12:24 AM
What is going on with the B-25 damage model. It is my favorite bomber of the war but online it is ridiculous. Me and my mates have hit B-25's with numerous 30mm, 20mm, and 13mm fire with very little result.

A-20's go down easier, alot easier. The two are not even close.

I took one spin on greatergreen, saw a 109 dive through and hit a B-25's tail removing most of it and destroying the 109. So I take my A-9 and park behind it as gunners seemed dead. So I proceed to pour 221 rounds (I know since it was my only flight) into the almost tailess, smoking B-25 focussing on the left engine nacelle. The engine was on fire for over ten minutes and the other was smoking (actually there were about 4 or 5 columns of smoke). I can't count how many 30mm's hit but it was alot. I flew home and landed and the B-25 was still going. Anyway this has happened quite often and it is NOT LAG as all other planes exhibit normal consistent DM's for the most part.

I would guess others have obviously noticed this? I have always thought bombers went down a little too easily, and I am glad to see some bombers start showing up online, but the DM of the Mitchell seems pretty off to me.

ImpStarDuece
04-05-2005, 12:57 AM
I'd say its the random effects of the weapon model rather than the plane damage model itself.

Both online and offline I have shot down B-25s with the single 20mm of the 109. I have also downed B-25s on line with the P-47 and Spitfire. I have rippped a wing off with the P-47 with less than 150 rounds hitting. I know because I also checked my gunstat afterwards (as it was my first run) and I had an amazing 43% accuracy! Wish i could repeat that all the time.

B-25s are tough but the 20mms and 30mms really have 0 problem dealing with it. It may take between 20 and 30 hits with a 20mm to be sure of a kill. SOmetimes I have had them blow up in my face after a half second burst though.

For instance, online last night, I attacked a B-25 from his 2 O'clock low, smothered his wing in 20mm Hisapano and .50cal. The I looped up and over, made a slashing attack on the same wing and started several fires. A 190 then came in low and just EXPLODED the B-25 with a couple of well placed 30mms.

Another run in a 109 (with wingpods) saw me down a B-25 in one pass. Came down straight on top of it and ripped the front of the engine and the left wing tip off.

While they are tough, I dont think they are TOO tough. The main issue (which some people see as a problem and others as a feature) I see as the variability in the damage model. You never know if its going to take one pass or three to down a bomber.

faustnik
04-05-2005, 12:58 AM
They need to swap out the B-25 and B-17 DM.

Fennec_P
04-05-2005, 01:12 AM
Are you sure? B-25 seems to burn immediately. B-29 soaks up the hits like crazy. Or at least, that's what I gather.

And it is kind of odd that the B-29 is so much more flame ******ent than the B-17.

Hunde_3.JG51
04-05-2005, 01:23 AM
Like I said this has happened numerous times on several servers (gg, warclouds, virtualpilots, etc.). We ran 3 A-9's into a single B-25 on WC's and hit it with at least 30 108's and we didn't get it down until I parked on it and sawed of the wing with 20's. I have never seen a plane take that much punishment before, and I see it fairly regularly with the B-25. Like I said, I love this aircraft (and I have said it on numerous occasions), but what I am seeing is beyond bizarre, it is brutal. An A-20 goes down as you would expect, maybe too easily (I took both wings off with a half second burst from 108's), but I have seen the B-25 take 20+ 108 rounds regularly. Not to mention 20mm and 13mm rounds.

My example above can easily be seen on my gg stats, I only flew one mission and all of my hits were on that B-25. Like I said I flew home, landed, and it was still going, weird. Still, this is certainly not an isolated incident.

http://www.greatergreen.com/stats/il2/playerdetails.php?id=3658

This was the pilot and his mission:

http://www.greatergreen.com/stats/il2/sortiedetails.php?id=1112663884&playerid=2276

And impstardeuce, I hit him with 221 rounds of 30mm, 20mm, and 13mm, (far from "20-30 to be sure of a kill"), and he was damaged when I got there! And believe me, MANY of them were not 13mm. Like I said, an isolated incident I understand, but I have seen this regularly, even on our own server.

ImpStarDuece
04-05-2005, 02:27 AM
Just calling it how it feels to me. Being a predominantly red player I usually only come up against the B-25 on "air quake" stlye servers.

It has been my general experiance that I will need between two and four passes in a 20mm armed aircraft to snap off the tail assembelage/wing/engine nacelle. Its probably more than 20 hits to gaurentee a kill, maybe more like 30-40. Still, I have got 2 B-25s on a single Spitfire sortie and been confident enough in my ammo supply to hang around for a few dogfights.

Thinking about it though, most of my passes are at high angles of attack. One of the stranger aspects of the damage model in the game is the fact that leading and trailing edges of planes seem to be highly damage resistant. It seems that aircraft are MUCH more resistant to incoming fire if it is coming dead level at them. As I usually come from above or the side (sometimes from underneath or in front even) I tend to miss the leading and trailing edges of the wings and hit the engine body and wing at a acute angles. Maybe this is why I seem to require less hits.

I still think that a 190 with wing mounted 108s will have no trouble downing multiple B-25s, in fact i'll go and test my theory this evening.

WB_Outlaw
04-05-2005, 06:06 AM
This is just an observation so take it for what you will. It appears to me that high deflection shots always do reasonable damage while dead six shots are heavily penalized.

Attacking from either high or low, I have taken B-25s completely apart (wings, tail, pilot's a$$, etc.) with a single burst from the 20mm nose cannon of a 109G. I have also poured round after round of 30mm into them from dead six with very little effect.

I have also de-winged a Spitfire with a SINGLE high deflection hit from the nose mounted 20mm of the 109G.



-Outlaw.

VF-19
04-05-2005, 06:30 AM
Whenever I'm shooting at B-25s, I aim for the wing inbetween the engine and fuselage (small target, I know). It seems to light up pretty well. At that point, I usually stop shooting as I know that either the AI is going to bail, or the wing will come off due to structural failure.

It happened online on the RCAF_FB server about 2 weeks ago. I was in a P-47, and I set a B-25 aflame using my above described method (nice gout of flame coming from the wing). If it weren't for a kill steal (not sore about it, FYI) a few seconds later, I would have had the credit the moment the wing came off about a minute later.

Hunde_3.JG51
04-05-2005, 07:09 AM
Agree with what is said here. I also aim for the area between wing and nacelle as they light up easily, problem is I lit it up and it flew long enough for me to finish shooting, return to base, and land. The B-25 and P-38 (which also lights up easily) seem to burn forever with little effect.

I have dewinged P-47's with a single 20mm round.

Admittedly this time the shots were at dead six, but the numerous other times I mentioned were not all dead six. My guess is that a head on attack would be much more effective.

I see in the mission that the pilot was killed, maybe it was me, maybe it wasn't. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe some strange DM thing happens when someone is killed and it keeps flying or something, again, who knows.

Anyway, dead six or not a B-25 with it's tail removed and engine smoking should not absorb the punishment it did (another 221 rounds), second; it was taking hits before I got there so I can only imagine the number of hits it actually took, third; it should not burn as long as it did, and it was smoking everywhere with most of the tail broken away and continued to fly on long enough for me to RTB.

Finally, as I already said I would understand if this is an isolated incident, but it definitely isn't. If nothing gets changed, I'll live with it, its just that I have seen this several times and this time I just happened to have some proof and I couldn't help saying something after what I witnessed last night. To be honest I thought this is something that everyone would have noticed/witnessed, its really strange to me if others have not. I'll try to test some more offline and online, but I know what I have seen already and it isn't lag.

p1ngu666
04-05-2005, 07:54 AM
it canbe tough, sometimes itll fall apart

just aim for the wing roots, thats where alot of fuel tanks are, grey leak and his days ARE numbered. i fly b25 alot, and i fear a fuel leak more than oil, because i can turn off engine , but u will ALWAYS run out of fuel.

strange thing is, has engine fire extinguishers, but its VERY rare they will be set on fire

VW-IceFire
04-05-2005, 07:55 AM
B-25 was supposed to be the robust and tough going bomber. I haven't had any problems downing them...but I haven't been too focused on that either. I'll go try.

Is it something like the He-111...which just keeps going despite all the damage you've done to it.

faustnik
04-05-2005, 10:24 AM
OK, keep the tough DM for the B-25 but, give it to the B-17 also. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stef51
04-05-2005, 11:31 AM
Well speaking from someone who actually fly the plane a lot online, there is some strange behavior in the plane's dm.

First of all, the wings tanks are extremely vulnerable to ignition (between the engine and fuselage) and that section is also fragile. The tail section is the next section that could be cut to pieces easely though there are many times it resisted the attack even though the number of rounds were amazing.

Second, the 30mm guns have sometimes the tendency to have massive damage without having serious issues with the flight model except one thing: sometimes, when I get a 30mm hit, the plane will by itself jerk itself to the left or right, going toward the ground as if the pilot were dead or the control mechanism locked. As soon as I try to regain controls, the plane continues to be flyable as before. Always a strange feeling when that happen.

Overall, comparing with other planes, the B-29, B-17, and B-24s are very fragile planes. This could be because of a simple damage model. In any case, with the large experience I have flying the plane, it's obvious that there is something wrong with it especially with the 30mm as it seems that the planes can absorb some damage depending of the location.30 mm damage is very visible and lots of times the planes should be destroyed but although damage are visible on the plane, the 30mm behaves like a 20mm. Only a few places does it works though I assume any 30mm hit anywhere on the plane should give me plenty of problems flying the plane. That does not happen. There was a few notes about the resistance of large bombers who could resist a few 30mms before going down. The B-25 seems to have _almost_ the DM of a large bomber. Also, I rarely get damage to the engines themselves, much, much less than the wing tanks just nearby.

S!

Stephen

LLv34_Stafroty
04-05-2005, 11:39 AM
well, in real life bombers needed some 2-4 hits from 30mm and some 20hits from 20mm.

in game u need much more. Bombers now in game are flying flak batteries.

crazyivan1970
04-05-2005, 11:46 AM
Record the track and send it to PF@1C.RU it`s very simple http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

faustnik
04-05-2005, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
well, in real life bombers needed some 2-4 hits from 30mm and some 20hits from 20mm.

in game u need much more. Bombers now in game are flying flak batteries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. B-17s are wimps in PF. The self-igniting fuel tanks leave them too vunerable.

VW-IceFire
04-05-2005, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
OK, keep the tough DM for the B-25 but, give it to the B-17 also. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fair enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I wonder if it has to do something with bombers that are flyable as opposed to not flyable.

The "reality" of a few 20mm bringing down a bomber seems kind of off. A fighter takes more than a few 20mm rounds in the average case so you'd think a bomber would sustained many more hits than that. MK108s seem to rip up even the B-25s so they seem ok http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Because of real physics or because of the game being the way it is...attacking bombers from off angles and leading fire into the side or top is more effective than dead six shooting. Keep that in mind.

stef51
04-05-2005, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Record the track and send it to PF@1C.RU it`s very simple http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wellll, since I fly the thing, I sure won't report to Oleg that the plane is too tough.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Stephen

Hunde_3.JG51
04-05-2005, 01:13 PM
Wow crazyivan, why didn't I think of that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

I just wanted to see if others had observed similar results, or see if anyone noticed any patterns that may explain what I am seeing or if it requires a closer look. Thanks stef51, that is exactly the kind of input I was looking for. You've got to love the B-25, its maneuverable, versatile, carries a good payload, and is well defended http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif. Good to see someone honest about their favorite aircraft.

IIJG69_Kartofe
04-05-2005, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
What is going on with the B-25 damage model. It is my favorite bomber of the war but online it is ridiculous. Me and my mates have hit B-25's with numerous 30mm, 20mm, and 13mm fire with very little result.

A-20's go down easier, alot easier. The two are not even close.

I took one spin on greatergreen, saw a 109 dive through and hit a B-25's tail removing most of it and destroying the 109. So I take my A-9 and park behind it as gunners seemed dead. So I proceed to pour 221 rounds (I know since it was my only flight) into the almost tailess, smoking B-25 focussing on the left engine nacelle. The engine was on fire for over ten minutes and the other was smoking (actually there were about 4 or 5 columns of smoke). I can't count how many 30mm's hit but it was alot. I flew home and landed and the B-25 was still going. Anyway this has happened quite often and it is NOT LAG as all other planes exhibit normal consistent DM's for the most part.

I would guess others have obviously noticed this? I have always thought bombers went down a little too easily, and I am glad to see some bombers start showing up online, but the DM of the Mitchell seems pretty off to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry, this is just the effect of the absence of MG shells, thrust me, i've tested on Greatergreen numerous times 109 with gunpods and B25 broke like dry wood with this armament!

Gibbage1
04-05-2005, 02:27 PM
It all depends on angle. If you park behind the B-25, you wont do SQUAT. Your just hitting the trailing edge of the wing and there are no damage systems there. I bet your removing the aileron, but doing little else. Its the damage system in IL2. Try for deflection shots. Simply dive under the target and come back up. Shooting at the undersurface of the wing will net you a LOT better results then chewing his flaps up.

crazyivan1970
04-05-2005, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Wow crazyivan, why didn't I think of that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

I just wanted to see if others had observed similar results, or see if anyone noticed any patterns that may explain what I am seeing or if it requires a closer look. Thanks stef51, that is exactly the kind of input I was looking for. You've got to love the B-25, its maneuverable, versatile, carries a good payload, and is well defended http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif. Good to see someone honest about their favorite aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don`t you roll your eyes on me mister http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif There were way too many occurances where people mention something here and never bothered to notify devteam about it. Note that i didn`t move this thread to GD, as i should. You wanted to know what other people take on it, right? That`s what General discussion is all about. But this was valid question...untill eye rolling part http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Now it`s my turn: http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

arrow80
04-05-2005, 03:03 PM
Just to beat the dead horse a bit more...As it's been mentioned in this thread before, B-25 is not too tough, but mg151/20 is missing MG shells and that's the case why it is quite hard to down it. If you try gunpods it's just ok, several well aimed shots usually do the job. This also applies to fighters....

pourshot
04-05-2005, 03:56 PM
I don€t think the lack of MG shells is why the b25 is hard to kill, it more likely has to do with the trailing edges having little or no DM. I was trying to kill one from behind with a zero the other night in greatergreen and it ate a lot of ammo from at least 3 zeros before it was forced to land. On his next sortie I killed him in 1 pass by making a diving head on attack, it only needed a short burst to cut his wing. So the DM is not to strong just weird.

faustnik
04-05-2005, 04:05 PM
B-17 Self-igniting Fuel Tank.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/B17damage.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
04-05-2005, 06:07 PM
My turn http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

Just kidding crazyivan, its been a rough day and I just didn't like the "its very simple" part.

Just as a note I have submitted numerous tracks to Oleg, I would bet I have had more in-game changes result from my contacts with Oleg than almost anyone here. Just a few:

- P-63C phantom wing DM (supplied track to Gibbage).
- First to post and submit FW-190 gunsight bug.
- Bug with supercharger on planes like FW-190, P-51, etc., this required re-coding.
- Incorrect performance of FW-190A-4 vs. La-5 '42 at altitude
-... and more, just too tired to think.

Anyway, I know you have to deal with alot of cr@p and people making baseless claims, but I think I have proven that is not my style. Sorry if I took your comment wrong, I am a homeless case manager and have seen some pretty disturbing things lately so I am a bit on edge.

I would have posted this in GD but it would have been buried in threads like "The patch is here!", or "What color underwear do you wear?"

Back on topic, I don't think it is the lack of MG shells because the 30mm seems to have little effect. Stef51 posted some good stuff and I think that is pointing more towards what I am seeing. I will have to test some more and see. I tend to think that there is definitely something to the trailing edge thing, but it may be more areas than that where DM is off. There is no excuse for what I have been seeing, even if it is the trailing edge thing it is still broken. As others have said B-17, B-29, B-24, A-20, etc. are very fragile compared to the B-25 so that tells me something is off. Actually I know something is off, I have seen me and my mates land 20+ (being conservative) 30mm rounds with little/no effect. And not all of these attacks were at dead 6, many were diving attacks from above. But I will have to test more, I just wanted to see what others thought/observed in order to give me a better idea what to look for.

LLv34_Stafroty
04-05-2005, 06:39 PM
many times i find bombers really too tought, not all but some of em, like B25 and TB3. and it doesnt much matter if u come and attack from above, they still do soak ammo like candy.

Copperhead310th
04-05-2005, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
OK, keep the tough DM for the B-25 but, give it to the B-17 also. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Fennec_P
04-05-2005, 11:12 PM
nt

IIJG69-Niklaus
04-06-2005, 03:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
The engine was on fire for over ten minutes and the other was smoking (actually there were about 4 or 5 columns of smoke). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


P38 has the same problem, it can burns for very long time without explosion.

ImpStarDuece
04-06-2005, 09:19 AM
Just jumped in QMB to test the DM against the 108. Seems fine to me.

4 QMBs and 15 kills ( I got shot down once). The B-25 does seem tougher from dead 6 though.

Most common type of kill was ripping a wing off at the engine nacel, followed by ripping a wing off at the fuselage, setting the plane on fire (not the engine, the wing tanks) and then ripping the tail section off.

Less common deaths included complete disintergration, ripping both engines off (which only happened once but was funny to watch), cutting the bomber in half and having both wings decide to bugger off.

All in all it was pretty much 'one pass, one kill' and if they were not destroyed then they were on fire/engine dead or trailing serious amounts of smoke.

PapaFly
04-06-2005, 10:41 AM
Forget the QMB, shooting on-and offline is 2 different pair of shoes. Offline you can very easily ripp off a P38s tail, online this bird is just tough.

Check this out: it took me 149 HITS in a 190A9, armed with the MK108, to down a B25. I was behind him, focusing my fire on his right wing.
http://www.greatergreen.com/stats/il2/sortiedetails.php?id=1112552709&playerid=443


Or here...614 hits with a 190A4: i only shot his right wing...i killed the pilot but it took ALL MY AMMO to rip his wing off.
http://www.greatergreen.com/stats/il2/sortiedetails.php?id=1112555883&playerid=443

Or here: http://www.greatergreen.com/stats/il2/sortiedetails.php?id=1112556506&playerid=443
took 268hits out of a 190A4 to get this one.

The ridiculous thing is this bird starts burning, but the wings remain in place. IRL the 1000degrees produced by that fire would make the wing structure really soft i.e. wing would come off quickly. you can see this effect on many contemporary films.
Another thing is: HELL I SHOOT THE ENGINE, but it keeps on turning.

Nowadays my tactics vs. a B25 is as follows: kill the rear gunner on first run, then come really close, stay behind him, and shoot one of his engines/wings till he goes down.

Gibbage1
04-06-2005, 01:07 PM
Papa. I doubt this DM is exclusive to just the B-25. Try the same on a TB3 or He-111 and I bet you will get very similar results. Hitting an aircraft from dead 6 simply does not work well in IL2.

p1ngu666
04-06-2005, 01:33 PM
ive ignited b25's with 110's 4 mg guns from along way off...

rifle rounds have a very strong incudury effect. i got lite up both sides by a sbd's rear gunner (i was lagged, not sure) while in a b25

ironicly u dont even need to bother to kill the rear gunner really, 190A = pretty much imortal head on.

RedNeckerson
04-06-2005, 01:35 PM
I fly the FW190A-9 online.

Frankly, I'm very appreciative of the guys that take the time to fly the B-25 on WC and GG - especially those that fly them in formation.

I can definitely confirm Hunde's experience with my own, no doubt about it.

It's probably a combination of things. Simplified DM, no MG round for the German 20mm and so on.

That being said,

1. I would prefer Oleg to err on the side of too tough than too weak. It presents more of a challenge and when you kill a B-25 online you know you earned it.

2. Kudos to the guys who take the time to fly the B-25 on WC and GG, especially those who use real tactics and fly in formation.

IMO, nothing is more fun and challenging to this A-9 driver than to try and evade through the escort fighters and try to take down a B-25 formation. Yer!

Gibbage1
04-06-2005, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedNeckerson:
I fly the FW190A-9 online.

Frankly, I'm very appreciative of the guys that take the time to fly the B-25 on WC and GG - especially those that fly them in formation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally would rather fly a P-38 loaded then a B-25. Better chance of surviving http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But I have done many formation flights online in a B-25. A 190 strikes fear in the formation for good reason and its more then adiquate to take down a formation. Just like it was in WWII. It all depends on HOW you attack and I will tell you this. A FW-190 parked dead 6 #1, wont do much damage, and #2, is tail gunner bait. A FW-190 driver diving on you means your dead.

Hunde_3.JG51
04-06-2005, 06:37 PM
Totally agree FW-190fan, I mean redneckerson. It is great to see bomber pilots on the servers and I respect all of them, and I too would rather them lean towards the tough side rather than the fragile side. As I said, the other bombers I actually consider to be too fragile, its just the stuff I have seen online is ridiculous and it looks like some here have experienced the same thing. And it is exclusive to the B-25 IMO. Anyway, no big deal I just wanted to see what others thought and I am convinced there is something wrong. I probably won't bother to pursue it though as any change would likely be overdone and reduce it to a death trap, once again making bombers seldon seen. Plus I love the Mitchell http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Thanks for the replies and keeping it respectful, much appreciated.

Fly on.

http://www.brooksart.com/TF15.jpg .

AndyHigh
04-08-2005, 04:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Just jumped in QMB to test the DM against the 108. Seems fine to me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was that surprising result with Mk108, eh? Try the same with the 20mm MG151/20 nose cannon instead. You can often fill B25's wing root with holes with it and see through the wing, but it seems to be just a visual effect as the plane continues to fly like nothing happened. Twenty shells in average were needed to down B-17 with 20mm, you'd expect that to be lower for twin engined bombers.

B25 is much tougher than many other bombers and can fly for a long time while burning.

As it is now, it sometimes seem to be almost easier to shoot down fighters with bombers than other way around.

Badsight.
04-08-2005, 04:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
OK, keep the tough DM for the B-25 but, give it to the B-17 also. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>B-17 ?

i know the wings are fragile , but the B-17 is the strongest large bomber in FB/PF , the fueselarge is a bullet sponge & its a total waste of ammo hitting

compared to the B-17 , the FW200 & Pe-8 pop like balloons , the B-29 is weaker in the fuselarge than the B-17

but then you have the B-17s wings & if this is what your meaning then i can totally relate , but like the FW200 & Pe-8 , the wings just pop off easy & all the large bombers seem to fire easy

Badsight.
04-08-2005, 04:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AndyHigh:
B25 is much tougher than many other bombers and can fly for a long time while burning. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>also , try attacking Pe-2's

for the longest time , they have been HARD targets

LeadSpitter_
04-08-2005, 04:52 AM
Its all about ping online, no more then a 2 sec burst from a 109g2 with single 20mm will rip off the tail.

twin 108 cannons will explode it to nothing in 1 sec burst.

I showed you the online tracks with the p-47 people saying it takes 40-50 20mm hits, yeah it does if you have a 200-500 ping but with a ping of 30 its the same as offline play. It also depends on the hosts computer speed download and upload connection greatly.

For ex me being the host and took a track of 8 p-47 d27s it took me avg of 4-6 hits direct tail at .20 range to flame or rip off the whole tail.

This was done with the g2 limited ammo everything on full difficulty settings, 1 109g2 vs 8 p47s

This is where all the weapon complaints come from. Dont get me wrong i flown in servers where i seen 190s take hits from hispanos for 5-6 seconds, same with the 109 and 190s vs beaufighters b25s p47s a20s like 6 seconds of hits. But in those servers i dont play much becuase of that and they are all over seas and have poor host machines.

Then a overseas server like virtualpilots which i ping 110ms in runs perfect even with 64 players. Becuase of the host machine and connection.

Hunde_3.JG51
04-08-2005, 08:49 PM
Leadspitter, yes that is the culprit most of the time, but what I am seeing is much different. On warclouds, gg, virtualpilots, etc, I alsways have a very low ping and I have seen this against own squad-mates with low ping.

And again, I don't notice this with any other type of aircraft at the moment. I think Stef51 posted what I suspected, and to me it seems more of an issue with the B-25's DM vs. MK-108, than against 151/20 (though it could be both). And I have said repeatedly that the 108 is the best weapon in the game, and if anything is overmodelled in terms of accuracy so there is no weapon complaint. Still, I am convinced there is something definitely off with the Mitchell's DM, but I won't pursue it for the reasons I stated in my last post.

VW-IceFire
04-09-2005, 02:42 PM
Flew a bit of B-25 last night. Its not as tough as the He-111 for starters. A lit fuel tank does explode and take the whing with it. Its tough but not really in any special way that I can see.

From the being shot at perspective.

LEXX_Luthor
04-09-2005, 11:13 PM
Would a small LAN test work??

If its an internet play problem, then its not a damage model problem or is only a partial damage model problem. If the people willing to conduct offline tests find identical test results with the online testers willing to test on different servers, then we are onto something, but it seems that is not the case here. Or is it?

Osirisx9
04-10-2005, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Flew a bit of B-25 last night. Its not as tough as the He-111 for starters. A lit fuel tank does explode and take the whing with it. Its tough but not really in any special way that I can see.

From the being shot at perspective. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fly the B-25 99% of the time on and offline and know the aircraft in and out. Its my favorite warbird of all time. The B-25 is definately not tougher than the HE111. There have been pleanty of times when one hit from 108s blew my aircraft apart. 20 mm can down the aircraft pretty easy too. Just hit the thing near the wingroot next to fuselage or aim at the engines. B-25s do not stay in the air for long when their mills are shot out. Once you see fire or thick black smoke comming from the engines , the bird is going down. Part of the problem is that allot of pilots are affraid that someone will finish the job and get credit for the kill. Therefore they will keep shooting until the B-25 blows up or shoots them down. I still do not understand why anyone would want to saddle up on the 6 of a B-25 and think that they will be able to shoot it down with 20mm. The next thing I see in the chat window is that the B-25 is Uber. This happens all of the time. Its rare when someone would attack the aircraft the proper way. Instead of setting up shop on the 6 of a B-25, try to position your aircraft to where you can attack the B-25s from below the nose and aim at the front belly and engines and leading edges. The B-25 will go down if you dont use lone ranger tactics and take the time to position yourself for a proper attack. Us bomber pilots have it rough already. Please do not make the B-25 DM any weaker because individuals want to be able to shoot down the B-25 from dead 6 and not use the right tactics.

RAF238thOsiris
www.warbirdsofprey.org (http://www.warbirdsofprey.org)

Hunde_3.JG51
04-10-2005, 01:10 PM
Hey Osiris.

Just to clarify I agree about not tweaking the DM because as you, and I, have already said they will likely make it too fragile, just like all of the other bombers. Also, I know how to use proper tactics and I only shot the above mentioned example at dead 6 because the rear gunner was obviously dead. This is not a "I got shot down so there must besomething wrong with it" thread, it is just that I am seeing very strange behavior that others have admitted to.

Ant to be honest I have played this sim long enough that I don't need anyone's confirmation, I know what I am seeing is wrong. When three of us use diving attacks from above and hit all over the top of wings/fuesalage with 20+ 30mm rounds and nothing happens, something is off. Then I fly on greatergreen and take down 2 B-25's and a P-51 in one sortie without much difficulty. As I said I see the problem at times, not always. Honestly I think it is something very strange, maybe with DM, maybe with DM after gunner's killed, who knows. It is not simply a "shooting at dead six" issue, though it may provide an easier example.

And finally I will say this, how about we take the FW-190 and make it almost invulnerable to shots at dead six to encourage others to use deflection shooting more often?

But as I said I hope they don't change anything and I wish I never said anything at all.

p1ngu666
04-10-2005, 03:40 PM
fw190 is nearly invunrable to 50cals head on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
if u see me on HL ill show u if u dont belive me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
im p1ngu666 on HL

LEXX_Luthor
04-10-2005, 05:02 PM
Hunde what you are describing is Real Life.
Hunde:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When three of us use diving attacks from above and hit all over the top of wings/fuesalage with 20+ 30mm rounds and nothing happens, something is off. Then I fly on greatergreen and take down 2 B-25's and a P-51 in one sortie without much difficulty. As I said I see the problem at times, not always. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is exactly what we find in the pilot accounts. Some attacks work well, some don't.

However...does it happen on some servers and not others?

This may be a bit more Dicey...does it happen in offline test?

I am thinking (if its not internet play issue) you may be assuming that you have 100% total control of which of your gun rounds hits exactly what part of the target plane and assume this always should cause identical damage in all attacks. I don't know if the code works in a way that allows you to assume this (if you are). Most likely its internet play thing, as offline tests reports here seem to claim B~25 not "uber" at all.

Hunde_3.JG51
04-10-2005, 05:20 PM
p1ngu666, I wouldn't know, I don't get hit that often http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Though from messing around with different planes I noticed the P-47's engine dies pretty easily even from small calibre rounds.


Lexx, I understand what you are saying and I agree. As for servers I have witnessed this on greatergreen, virtualpilots, Warclouds, and others. I am not assuming all damage should be the same, every attack is different depending on numerous variables. I am simply saying I have seen B-25's absorb incredible amounts of rounds, far more than I have ever witnessed online by any other aircraft to the point it is silly. Like I said I am not some beginner, I have enough experience to know what is normal and what is off.

Again, I would just as soon drop it. I wanted to see what others thought, and if I want to pursue it (which I probably won't), it is up to me to prove it and I am aware of this.

LEXX_Luthor
04-10-2005, 05:25 PM
If I recall, Daiich's B~25 snap roll when hit by gunfire seemed to be related to online play only...unless I missed some developments over this issues...as far as I know, he/she never bothered to test offline so we will never know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

All we are saying is does it happen on some servers and not other servers?

Does it happen in offline play?

How about LAN?

These Questions will help find any problem if one exists, and if its not damage model related, then a fix could be found.

p1ngu666
04-10-2005, 06:21 PM
snaproll still happens http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

p47 engine, u can kill in 3 bursts or less...

190 engine takes VASTLY more, not sure how many seconds, but 6+ id guess at

u can make a p47 and fw190 turn to 2cv power with the green shvaks on a tb3 after awhile

imo theres lag and a random factor in damage. i think rounds can get lost or buried if its busy... defensive bullets seem tobe ones most likely tobe discarded http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

u can kill any planes engine with a few rounds apart from 190a i think, even la7 lagg3, hit spinner engines finished
but when guys fire at me, u seem to need more shots on them or something.

this often rewards boneheaded attacks vs clever attacks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

p1ngu666
04-10-2005, 06:24 PM
oh u can kill p47 with a round or two btw, top part of engine...

only had golden bullet to engine once on 190, but he may have been damaged before...

Hunde_3.JG51
04-10-2005, 07:04 PM
Lexx, I don't play offline very much, if at all but I doubt I could re-create what I am seeing offline. I tried a few times but DM seemed consistent.

Never played LAN.

It has happened on all of the major servers I play on, others I probably haven't played enough on to see it. I'll probably just start recording tracks online and see what happens.

I almost tend to think it is a server type issue, or perhaps there is just so much going on that effects gets lost, who knows. But why have I only noticed this with B-25 then. I don't know. Stef51's post really seems to have a grasp of what I am trying to get across.

Btw, what is meant by the snaproll thing? I have flown a few planes and have seen it online where you hit, or get hit and your wing dips suddenly REALLY hard but their is no damage effect. The Corsair comes to mind as one I have seen and felt this in. Is this similar to what you mean?

And I supplied a track to Oleg ages ago where I lit up a P-47 with .303's from 300+m with only a few hits. Also, I have set FW-190 alight with 2 .303 rounds total. I swear, as I 190 driver I would rather get hit with .50's than .303's, the small calibre rounds seem to cause fire and fuel leaks more often (which we know are terminal), and seem to ignore armor and wound/kill pilot easier. Its weird, and I may be wrong but it seems that way.

LeadSpitter_
04-10-2005, 07:48 PM
When are people going to stop *****ing? I mean seriously people dont seem to realize how much ping effects online play, and hits on their screen is not really hitting. I seen you fly in greatergreen, 109s vs spits, warclouds etc and you and many ping extremely high 180-400ms range. Most the b25 pilots are pinging low 40's-80s.

For example online and a 190a8 f8 a9 etc it takes one short burst to rip the tail off a b25 where i ping 40-100.

As for 20mm it takes about 20% ammo for one b25 ,a20, he111 or 30% beaufighter kill. The il2s actually take more hits then all the above.

The he111 takes just as many hits as the b25 and a20, your being really bias about this. The beaufighter takes the most out of the bombers.

Give the bomber people a break and be happy people fly them med alt on small sqaure maps, enjoy them being in the game for a easy kill which they are, some humans are finally better gunners then ai which is a great thing.

You want weak bombers that explode into nothing from 1 sec burst, I want anti bomber and anti tank cannon not to be the best dogfighting weapon in game, both longrange and closerange.

p1ngu666
04-10-2005, 09:00 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifil2 looses its cables with first few hits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

i agree with lead, and the 190 is like a rock at the front, but weak at the rear. i think the armour has been wrongly placed... all in the nose

Hunde_3.JG51
04-10-2005, 11:12 PM
"I seen you fly in greatergreen, 109s vs spits, warclouds etc and you and many ping extremely high 180-400ms range. Most the b25 pilots are pinging low 40's-80s."


Leadspitter, are you saying that you have seen me specifically fly on those servers with high pings, because that is complete BS my pings are always low. Every person here is welcome to check out my pings online, they are quite good.


"You want weak bombers that explode into nothing from 1 sec burst, I want anti bomber and anti tank cannon not to be the best dogfighting weapon in game, both longrange and closerange."

Funny, I thought I said that all bombers seem too fragile except B-25 in some online instances, and I stated that if anything the MK-108 was overmodelled. I also remember me saying that I would rather see overly tough bombers so that we would at least see them online as opposed to a change that would make them even more fragile.

And who is being bias? I said the A-20 goes down VERY easily and I never mentioned the He-111 at all.

If your post was addressed to me you need to read closer. If it wasn't I am not sure who you are talking to.

LEXX_Luthor
04-11-2005, 12:24 AM
Hunde:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I thought I said that all bombers seem too fragile except B-25 in some online instances,... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right, this is not a damage model problem. You are facing internet play problem. This can be confirmed or invalidated with offline damage testing. This is what you need to start looking at tonight.

stef51
04-11-2005, 11:43 AM
'Btw, what is meant by the snaproll thing? I have flown a few planes and have seen it online where you hit, or get hit and your wing dips suddenly REALLY hard but their is no damage effect. The Corsair comes to mind as one I have seen and felt this in. Is this similar to what you mean?'

Yes, it's like a giant hand slamming your wing. However, if you see that same behavior elsewhere, this is not quite correct too. Assuming one 30mm hit and that wing effect on a B-25, surely it can't be that same effect on a smaller airplane.

Overall, tests would be better with people cooperating during those tests.. When you fire different types of ammos at the same time, things become much more difficult to analyse. Overall, I find the beaufighter having a pretty good overall dm compared to the B-25... Again a few days ago, plenty of 190 and KI-84 buzzing around me and never got an engine in fire... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I expect the new patch to be quite interesting for testing... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stephen

Aaron_GT
04-12-2005, 03:55 PM
faustnik wrote:
"B-17 Self-igniting Fuel Tank"

Perhaps that's a case of the visual damage being simplified and not matching up totally with where the damage is being caused? There are a whole series of hits slightly inboard of the fire that could have sparked a fire in that area but perhaps the visual damage is simplified as it is for bullet holes?

Aaron_GT
04-12-2005, 04:00 PM
Lexx, good suggestion with regard to the LAN.

Also it's worth checking wireless signal for those playing via a wireless modem/router. The signal through mine varies considerably from hour to hour and I can start a session with a good ping and good connection to the router that can degrade for reasons unknown and add extra ping or other network problems between me and the router. Plus if my other half decides to download something I can be suddenly hit with network collisions.