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View Full Version : The Ultimate 'Templar' Theory (Long and with many spoilers)



JudgeQwerty
12-07-2009, 07:52 PM
This is my attempt to provide a coherent theory on the origin and goals of the Tenmplar brotherhood. Remember, though, that the Brotherhood has never referred to itself as Templars and I will refrain from using that word until we reach the appropriate era. (Crusades)

As you're probably aware, there are quite a few Biblical references throughout the game. Adam & Eve, Cain & Satan, Jesus on the cross, Crusaders, and numerous evil Roman Catholics. This has lead to numerous Judeo-Christian conspiracy theories involving references to Genesis, but I believe we're looking through the wrong 'mythos' altogether. Let me show you...

In the Truth video, we see the 'Garden of Eden' located near Mount Kilimanjaro. This of course drags out so many hypotheses about the origin of man and are we all descended from Adam & Eve and 'hey, they're freerunning, they must be early Assassins'.

My friends, the Truth video is nothing but a red herring. They built temples all over the planet, so the Garden of Eden's location tells us nothing. The 'Gods' flat out state they desighned us and we know any scientic proof otherwise was faked by Abstergo. No, we are not all descended from them as we can clearly see others. And finally, any thief, agile guard, or frightened target can run over rooftops just as well.

No, my friends, this video tells us nothing we don't hear from Minerva's own shimmering lips. However the actual puzzles are much more informative. Recall the four paintings of Cain murdering his brother, with text from the Mormon translation of the Bible. Now, Joseph Smith was infamously anti-Freemason and many of his texts reflect it. The title Master Mahan is most often believed to translate as either ‘Master Mason’ or ‘Master of a great secret’. Using that interpretation, we’re not looking at a direct depiction of Cain and Abel, but rather a metaphor of power and secrecy. Still, keep in mind the fratricide angle, which will be brought up later.

Minerva introduces herself as ‘once known as Merva’ and mentions her compaions as Juno and Jupiter, formerly Uni and Tinia. Merva, Uni, and Tinia were Etruscan deities who heavily influenced Roman mythology. Now remember, we learn all this underneath Rome itself. Rome, that crucified Jesus. Rome, that sent the Templars forth to take the Holy Land. Rome, where the Prophet was revealed and given his message for Desmond. Why Rome?

As you probably know, Rome was founded by the brothers Romulus and Remus. Supposedly, they were the orphans of a failed Trojan invasion of Italy. Yes, the same Troy which Al Mualim mentions a POE being responsible for the fall of. Now, Romulus famously slew Remus for control and power. Sound familiar? Now let’s assume the Vault was already there, long before the city of Rome was built over it… Imagine two lost brothers wandering the wilderness, only to discover this abandoned home of the Gods, with miraculous tools to build the greatest civilization imaginable. Were they made an offer they couldn’t refuse? Did Minerva and her dying brethren offer such a treasure to Romulus that he could not share with his brother Remus?

Cain=Romulus
Abel=Remus
Satan=Those Who Came Before

Returning briefly to the Freemasons, perhaps AC’s Joseph Smith is indeed pointing his finger at the ultimate secret society and attempting to reveal their wicked origins, if shrouded in Biblical trappings to avoid an outright war. The ‘Master Mahan’ translation only exists in the relatively recent Mormon interpretation and in no other ‘conventional’ Bible.

Fast forward a few hundred years. Rome is vast and powerful. I cannot guess when or why the ‘Gods’ have withdrawn their patronage, but it appears the Romans are no longer the favored children. Recall Minerva’s warning against ‘those who bear the cross’. Long before Christianity adopted it, the cross was an infamous Roman tool of torture and degradation. In a glyph puzzle, we are shown a picture of a crucified Jesus, with the Templar symbol anachronistically hidden upon the cross and the words ‘They Took It’ nearby. Who took it? Surely Crusaders did not slay their own messiah figure! No, it was the Romans, of course. Romans with a sealed off vault of alien tech and dying gods beneath their feet. Bear in mind the POE shown is a Shroud, not the Apple we assumed in the first game.

A thousand years later, the Crusades are in full swing. Constantine has converted to Christianity along with the Roman Empire. Presumably, the Papal Staff plays a part and henceforth rests safely in Rome. Unfortunately for us, there are still those who know of the Vault and those who made it. The Staff may be in their reach, but without the Apple, they still have no real hope of entering and attaining the same power that built Rome. I am describing, dear friends, a secret brotherhood formed and based in Rome, a brotherhood of powerbrokers descended from that same group that murdered Christ and even likely supported Romulus himself.

In Bloodlines, we are introduced to the ‘Archives’, a wondrous source of knowledge hoarded by the Templars for many years. A bit strange if we assume they only recently discovered the POE, but I think its meant to illustrate that we have not even brushed the surface of their history.

Eventually, the Knights Templar arrive in the Holy Land, supposedly to battle the Saracens and support their Crusader allies. In AC, we’re given a heart wrenching list of non-Crusader-like motives from Altair’s targets, ranging from saving the poor and wretched to defeating those who blindly support this war to eliminating the very texts that inspired the Crusades. Very noble, very admirable, and I believe that they trly believe in their cause, even Majd Addin in his own monstrous way.

Except Robert de Sable himself… I don’t believe for a moment he gave a damn about freeing the Holy Land. I suspect the Templars, THE Templars such as Robert and Anton Bouchard, were sent to the Middle East solely to retrieve the Apple, screw the New World. As early as the second Acre mission, we eavesdrop on a a conversation that informs us that Robert has already prepared his backup plan for victory. Later, we learn this plan involves intentionally sacrificing his allies and by extension, their roles for the New World. Surely, someone who can maintain such a vast conspiracy could bother with a far less self-destructive plan… IF he needed them in the first place.

With the Apple at Masyaf, all that’s left is to march there with the biggest army he can assemble, retake his treasure, and promptly return to Rome and the Vault. Unlike every other Templar, including Al Mualim and Majd Addin, Robert never expresses anything resembling altruism. Whenever we see him, he schemes and growls and kills. On his deathbed, his voice and manner is only more subtle in its animalistic tone. When he reveals Al Mualim’s connection, he claims that he would at least have shared, but with who? Certainly not the allies he left to die at Altair’s blade. More likely, he was only feeding Altair’s outrage at Al Mualim, but certainly, the man had other allies, allies ‘in the know’ like Anton and Maria, others in Cyprus and Rome and probably other places.

At this point, things become a bit more obvious. Without the Apple, the Templars are driven underground, a failed project by the Brotherhood. Until a better opportunity arrives, they continue to hide amongst the Church, holding high-ranking positions as archbishops, cardinals, and inquisitors, protecting the Staff and Vault. They await the day another Apple presents itself for the picking while grabbing secular power through secular means like conquest and treachery.

Fortunately, Altair’s codex surfaces, revealing the location of the Apple in Cyprus. Fortunately, they already know where the Vault is, so the loss of its pages to Assassins does not slow them down. They only need the ONE, specific page to achieve their goals.

Of course, it turns out they STILL aren't allowed inside because the Prophet is a specific goshdarn Assassin and not just any Templar with a stick and ball... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Still, we never see what happens after Ezio's conversation with Minerva. I tend to assume that he left the Vault only to discover that the Spaniard had run off with the Staff and Apple, explaining how Abstergo has that SPECIFIC Apple for their original satellite plan. But on that part, I'm just guessing.

In short…

What is the Brotherhood? An ancient Roman secret society intent on ruling the world via cool alien tech originally given to Romulus. (Our ‘Templar Cain’)

Why do they have such different motives in both games? They don’t. Robert de Sable is playing his allies for saps and he’s only interested in the Apple. Rodrigo plays the same game with his allies as well.


We never meet Vidic's bosses, so its likely they're no different.

JudgeQwerty
12-07-2009, 07:52 PM
This is my attempt to provide a coherent theory on the origin and goals of the Tenmplar brotherhood. Remember, though, that the Brotherhood has never referred to itself as Templars and I will refrain from using that word until we reach the appropriate era. (Crusades)

As you're probably aware, there are quite a few Biblical references throughout the game. Adam & Eve, Cain & Satan, Jesus on the cross, Crusaders, and numerous evil Roman Catholics. This has lead to numerous Judeo-Christian conspiracy theories involving references to Genesis, but I believe we're looking through the wrong 'mythos' altogether. Let me show you...

In the Truth video, we see the 'Garden of Eden' located near Mount Kilimanjaro. This of course drags out so many hypotheses about the origin of man and are we all descended from Adam & Eve and 'hey, they're freerunning, they must be early Assassins'.

My friends, the Truth video is nothing but a red herring. They built temples all over the planet, so the Garden of Eden's location tells us nothing. The 'Gods' flat out state they desighned us and we know any scientic proof otherwise was faked by Abstergo. No, we are not all descended from them as we can clearly see others. And finally, any thief, agile guard, or frightened target can run over rooftops just as well.

No, my friends, this video tells us nothing we don't hear from Minerva's own shimmering lips. However the actual puzzles are much more informative. Recall the four paintings of Cain murdering his brother, with text from the Mormon translation of the Bible. Now, Joseph Smith was infamously anti-Freemason and many of his texts reflect it. The title Master Mahan is most often believed to translate as either ‘Master Mason’ or ‘Master of a great secret’. Using that interpretation, we’re not looking at a direct depiction of Cain and Abel, but rather a metaphor of power and secrecy. Still, keep in mind the fratricide angle, which will be brought up later.

Minerva introduces herself as ‘once known as Merva’ and mentions her compaions as Juno and Jupiter, formerly Uni and Tinia. Merva, Uni, and Tinia were Etruscan deities who heavily influenced Roman mythology. Now remember, we learn all this underneath Rome itself. Rome, that crucified Jesus. Rome, that sent the Templars forth to take the Holy Land. Rome, where the Prophet was revealed and given his message for Desmond. Why Rome?

As you probably know, Rome was founded by the brothers Romulus and Remus. Supposedly, they were the orphans of a failed Trojan invasion of Italy. Yes, the same Troy which Al Mualim mentions a POE being responsible for the fall of. Now, Romulus famously slew Remus for control and power. Sound familiar? Now let’s assume the Vault was already there, long before the city of Rome was built over it… Imagine two lost brothers wandering the wilderness, only to discover this abandoned home of the Gods, with miraculous tools to build the greatest civilization imaginable. Were they made an offer they couldn’t refuse? Did Minerva and her dying brethren offer such a treasure to Romulus that he could not share with his brother Remus?

Cain=Romulus
Abel=Remus
Satan=Those Who Came Before

Returning briefly to the Freemasons, perhaps AC’s Joseph Smith is indeed pointing his finger at the ultimate secret society and attempting to reveal their wicked origins, if shrouded in Biblical trappings to avoid an outright war. The ‘Master Mahan’ translation only exists in the relatively recent Mormon interpretation and in no other ‘conventional’ Bible.

Fast forward a few hundred years. Rome is vast and powerful. I cannot guess when or why the ‘Gods’ have withdrawn their patronage, but it appears the Romans are no longer the favored children. Recall Minerva’s warning against ‘those who bear the cross’. Long before Christianity adopted it, the cross was an infamous Roman tool of torture and degradation. In a glyph puzzle, we are shown a picture of a crucified Jesus, with the Templar symbol anachronistically hidden upon the cross and the words ‘They Took It’ nearby. Who took it? Surely Crusaders did not slay their own messiah figure! No, it was the Romans, of course. Romans with a sealed off vault of alien tech and dying gods beneath their feet. Bear in mind the POE shown is a Shroud, not the Apple we assumed in the first game.

A thousand years later, the Crusades are in full swing. Constantine has converted to Christianity along with the Roman Empire. Presumably, the Papal Staff plays a part and henceforth rests safely in Rome. Unfortunately for us, there are still those who know of the Vault and those who made it. The Staff may be in their reach, but without the Apple, they still have no real hope of entering and attaining the same power that built Rome. I am describing, dear friends, a secret brotherhood formed and based in Rome, a brotherhood of powerbrokers descended from that same group that murdered Christ and even likely supported Romulus himself.

In Bloodlines, we are introduced to the ‘Archives’, a wondrous source of knowledge hoarded by the Templars for many years. A bit strange if we assume they only recently discovered the POE, but I think its meant to illustrate that we have not even brushed the surface of their history.

Eventually, the Knights Templar arrive in the Holy Land, supposedly to battle the Saracens and support their Crusader allies. In AC, we’re given a heart wrenching list of non-Crusader-like motives from Altair’s targets, ranging from saving the poor and wretched to defeating those who blindly support this war to eliminating the very texts that inspired the Crusades. Very noble, very admirable, and I believe that they trly believe in their cause, even Majd Addin in his own monstrous way.

Except Robert de Sable himself… I don’t believe for a moment he gave a damn about freeing the Holy Land. I suspect the Templars, THE Templars such as Robert and Anton Bouchard, were sent to the Middle East solely to retrieve the Apple, screw the New World. As early as the second Acre mission, we eavesdrop on a a conversation that informs us that Robert has already prepared his backup plan for victory. Later, we learn this plan involves intentionally sacrificing his allies and by extension, their roles for the New World. Surely, someone who can maintain such a vast conspiracy could bother with a far less self-destructive plan… IF he needed them in the first place.

With the Apple at Masyaf, all that’s left is to march there with the biggest army he can assemble, retake his treasure, and promptly return to Rome and the Vault. Unlike every other Templar, including Al Mualim and Majd Addin, Robert never expresses anything resembling altruism. Whenever we see him, he schemes and growls and kills. On his deathbed, his voice and manner is only more subtle in its animalistic tone. When he reveals Al Mualim’s connection, he claims that he would at least have shared, but with who? Certainly not the allies he left to die at Altair’s blade. More likely, he was only feeding Altair’s outrage at Al Mualim, but certainly, the man had other allies, allies ‘in the know’ like Anton and Maria, others in Cyprus and Rome and probably other places.

At this point, things become a bit more obvious. Without the Apple, the Templars are driven underground, a failed project by the Brotherhood. Until a better opportunity arrives, they continue to hide amongst the Church, holding high-ranking positions as archbishops, cardinals, and inquisitors, protecting the Staff and Vault. They await the day another Apple presents itself for the picking while grabbing secular power through secular means like conquest and treachery.

Fortunately, Altair’s codex surfaces, revealing the location of the Apple in Cyprus. Fortunately, they already know where the Vault is, so the loss of its pages to Assassins does not slow them down. They only need the ONE, specific page to achieve their goals.

Of course, it turns out they STILL aren't allowed inside because the Prophet is a specific goshdarn Assassin and not just any Templar with a stick and ball... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Still, we never see what happens after Ezio's conversation with Minerva. I tend to assume that he left the Vault only to discover that the Spaniard had run off with the Staff and Apple, explaining how Abstergo has that SPECIFIC Apple for their original satellite plan. But on that part, I'm just guessing.

In short…

What is the Brotherhood? An ancient Roman secret society intent on ruling the world via cool alien tech originally given to Romulus. (Our ‘Templar Cain’)

Why do they have such different motives in both games? They don’t. Robert de Sable is playing his allies for saps and he’s only interested in the Apple. Rodrigo plays the same game with his allies as well.


We never meet Vidic's bosses, so its likely they're no different.

Crash_Plague
12-07-2009, 08:05 PM
A very good read, well thought out, I liked reading it.

Good work!

JudgeQwerty
12-07-2009, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Plague:
A very good read, well thought out, I liked reading it.

Good work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thank you!

Astonishingly, we're actually given far less infornation about the Assassins, so I couldn't really work in any ideas about their war, at least not before the events of the first game.

beatledude210
12-07-2009, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JudgeQwerty:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Plague:
A very good read, well thought out, I liked reading it.

Good work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thank you!



Awesome job, great connection http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif s, i didn't know you saw Joseph smith in the glyphs, but anyway great job.
Astonishingly, we're actually given far less infornation about the Assassins, so I couldn't really work in any ideas about their war, at least not before the events of the first game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sparty2020
12-08-2009, 12:24 AM
Fascinating read man, excellently placed and well referenced. Makes me wish we played a Templar simply for the awnsers to those questions.

To add to this theory I believe that Julius Ceasar was also a Templar since he was a cold dictator who sacrificed and betrayed the Roman Republic and is a member of the 9 Nobles: Ceasar, Alexander (also a Templar), Hector of Troy, King Arthur who held a PoE and might had been one, Richard the Lionheart who was influenced by them, and some others who I forgot.

Thus it might be that every Roman Emperor was a Templar or assosciated with them and if they weren't they were assassinated by their zealous and powerful Praetorian guards who could had been the elite "pre"-Templars of which you spoke of.

Captain Tomatoz
12-08-2009, 01:04 AM
good read http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the book says that after ezio spoke to minerva he walked out and borgia asked him what he saw. And ezio replied 'nothing'. then he met his fellow assassin's who were waiting for him

Sparty2020
12-08-2009, 01:07 AM
Wow... that's... not-epic. Really. Uncool. Dude.

Anything else happen after that?

Captain Tomatoz
12-08-2009, 01:14 AM
nope

Sparty2020
12-08-2009, 01:17 AM
Well thanks anyway, at least we know that the Templars did not gain immediate possession of the Apple which could had become a family heirloom

JudgeQwerty
12-08-2009, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sparty2020:
Fascinating read man, excellently placed and well referenced. Makes me wish we played a Templar simply for the awnsers to those questions.

To add to this theory I believe that Julius Ceasar was also a Templar since he was a cold dictator who sacrificed and betrayed the Roman Republic and is a member of the 9 Nobles: Ceasar, Alexander (also a Templar), Hector of Troy, King Arthur who held a PoE and might had been one, Richard the Lionheart who was influenced by them, and some others who I forgot.

Thus it might be that every Roman Emperor was a Templar or assosciated with them and if they weren't they were assassinated by their zealous and powerful Praetorian guards who could had been the elite "pre"-Templars of which you spoke of. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Julius Caesar was quite popular amongst the Roman people and their allies for treating them well. I'm not saying he wasn't a Templar, he probably was, but he very much improved life for the 90% of the people who weren't Senators or absurdly wealthy.

Of course, the man fought wars in Gaul constantly. There is a Piece of Eden there according to Altair's Apple. Also, Robert is French and Caesar was an absurdly lucky man up until the end.

I have no idea if the developers pick over their own theories as much as we do...

But yes, I think its extremely likely either Caesar fought the Brotherhood or was a key member. Caesar died in 15 BC, not long before Jesus's birth...

Sparty2020
12-08-2009, 01:44 PM
Yea you're right but he still did destroy the government and a PoE could had been used to control many Romans.

BTW Here's the list of the Nine Worthies:
Hector of Troy
Alexander the Great
Julius Ceasar
Joshua
David
Judas Maccabeus
King Aruthur
Charlemagne (confused him for Richard, my bad)
Godfrey of Bouillon (A Mideval Knight of the First Crusade the successfully captured Jerusalem)

So yea, those men and their deeds set them up with the possibility of possessing a PoE, at least in my opinion

JudgeQwerty
12-08-2009, 03:13 PM
Ah, the Nine Worthies...

King Arthur and Alexander have already been stated as possessing the Sword.

It was the Achaean side that had a POE, not Troy. But then again, the war was started over Hector's bro Paris choosing which goddess to accept an apple from..

I don;t think the Maccabaeans or David have been mentioned at all, or even anything Jewish beyond Old Testament stuff... THOUGH the Ark of the Covenant was likely a POE!

Godfrey... I'm a bit sceptical, since he'd likely be fighting on the Brotherhood's side, who would then already have the POE. Assuming it were the Apple, of course.

edwardkidd33
12-08-2009, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tony6593:
good read http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the book says that after ezio spoke to minerva he walked out and borgia asked him what he saw. And ezio replied 'nothing'. then he met his fellow assassin's who were waiting for him </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wait what book?

Sparty2020
12-08-2009, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JudgeQwerty:
It was the Achaean side that had a POE, not Troy. But then again, the war was started over Hector's bro Paris choosing which goddess to accept an apple from.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>My theory is that The Trojans used a PoE to acquire vast amounts of wealth, vast amounts of brave citizens, and vast amounts of allies. The walls "Poseidon" built could have been built using an apple.

As for the war, looked at from a certain point of view, Paris gave away the Golden Apple to a beautiful mistress for his own selfish desires. And then an entire army assualted his city. Paris most likely betrayed the Templars and Agamemnon and/or Menelaus used the opportunity to start a war against them.

As for the Jewish Worthies, I have no theory since I don't know lots of Jewish Mythos but I do like your idea!

Xenlecan
12-08-2009, 11:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by edwardkidd33:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tony6593:
good read http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the book says that after ezio spoke to minerva he walked out and borgia asked him what he saw. And ezio replied 'nothing'. then he met his fellow assassin's who were waiting for him </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wait what book? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was referring to the novelization of Assassin's Creed 2.

Vizzionator
12-09-2009, 03:10 AM
Awesome read dude! That does make one think!

Neo_Age
12-09-2009, 07:30 AM
Good read though I do want to point out in regards to Christ, it was the Priests at the temple that wanted him dead and they used the Romans to kill him for them.

Granted this is from biblical texts which in AC is supposed to be a conspiracy or distorted accounting of history but the situation breaks down to:

Jesus says he's the son of god.

Priests who have been enjoying the good life suddenly have a crowd pleaser in their midst that might take their sweet life away.

They capture him and put him on trial (if you study the text, one of the priests who wasn't in on the plan shouts that what they are doing is in essence illegal).

Jesus confesses the son of god, Priests say its blasphaphy and declare his guilt.

Priests take him to Roman overlords, Roman overlords punish him then plan on letting him go. Last minute Romans offer an ultimatum, crowd chooses the murderer over Jesus to be set free.

Romans crucify christ.

The Romans were really an unwitting executioner, at least according to the bible and it was the priests who wanted Christ dead. Framing this in the context of AC its more likely that the temple priests were in fact a part of the brotherhood as opposed to the Romans (or at least the Romans in the area).

This brings up several possibilities:

1. The brotherhood came from the middle east, through the jewish faith and were the priests at the time of Christ's crucifixion. This would make sense as a lot of references are part of the judo christen beliefs, not Roman. The brotherhood, at a later date infiltrated Rome, likely when the empire converted to Christianity.

2. The brotherhood is actually far reaching and in several belief systems/several ancient governments and had a chapter in the form of the priests at the temple. When Christ surfaced his miracles caught the brotherhoods attention and they moved in to take his POE.

Another thing to consider is with Cain and Abel. Shortly after his exile by God, Cain took a wife and built a city which shortly afterward started to create metal work. If we frame this in AC lore, Cain and his group were effectively in the bronze age when the rest of humanity was still in the stone age. This makes sense, seeing as AC says he killed his brother for a POE. Also consider that subject 16 says "behold, the mark of cain!" and it turned out to be the brotherhood symbol.

I hope this doesn't come off as me high jacking the thread, just giving my input.

JudgeQwerty
12-09-2009, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neo_Age:
Good read though I do want to point out in regards to Christ, it was the Priests at the temple that wanted him dead and they used the Romans to kill him for them.

Granted this is from biblical texts which in AC is supposed to be a conspiracy or distorted accounting of history but the situation breaks down to:

Jesus says he's the son of god.

Priests who have been enjoying the good life suddenly have a crowd pleaser in their midst that might take their sweet life away.

They capture him and put him on trial (if you study the text, one of the priests who wasn't in on the plan shouts that what they are doing is in essence illegal).

Jesus confesses the son of god, Priests say its blasphaphy and declare his guilt.

Priests take him to Roman overlords, Roman overlords punish him then plan on letting him go. Last minute Romans offer an ultimatum, crowd chooses the murderer over Jesus to be set free.

Romans crucify christ.

The Romans were really an unwitting executioner, at least according to the bible and it was the priests who wanted Christ dead. Framing this in the context of AC its more likely that the temple priests were in fact a part of the brotherhood as opposed to the Romans (or at least the Romans in the area).

This brings up several possibilities:

1. The brotherhood came from the middle east, through the jewish faith and were the priests at the time of Christ's crucifixion. This would make sense as a lot of references are part of the judo christen beliefs, not Roman. The brotherhood, at a later date infiltrated Rome, likely when the empire converted to Christianity.

2. The brotherhood is actually far reaching and in several belief systems/several ancient governments and had a chapter in the form of the priests at the temple. When Christ surfaced his miracles caught the brotherhoods attention and they moved in to take his POE.

Another thing to consider is with Cain and Abel. Shortly after his exile by God, Cain took a wife and built a city which shortly afterward started to create metal work. If we frame this in AC lore, Cain and his group were effectively in the bronze age when the rest of humanity was still in the stone age. This makes sense, seeing as AC says he killed his brother for a POE. Also consider that subject 16 says "behold, the mark of cain!" and it turned out to be the brotherhood symbol.

I hope this doesn't come off as me high jacking the thread, just giving my input. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A few good points, but I must point out that if the Romans killed Christ and are responsible for organizing the religion, they would NOT take credit for killing Jesus. The Bible as we know it was compiled by Romans as well, so even in real life, they would be hesitant to point the finger.

Even if the Jewish priests had a POE, we probably wouldn't have Adolph Hitler among the Brotherhood's ranks and it would be a very different world.

As for your second theory, I agree. The Roman Republic (and Empire) were vast, before and after the conversion. The Brotherhood, even if they weren't Romans themselves, would dedicate their resources to searching the world for POEs.

Neo_Age
12-09-2009, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JudgeQwerty:
A few good points, but I must point out that if the Romans killed Christ and are responsible for organizing the religion, they would NOT take credit for killing Jesus. The Bible as we know it was compiled by Romans as well, so even in real life, they would be hesitant to point the finger.

Even if the Jewish priests had a POE, we probably wouldn't have Adolph Hitler among the Brotherhood's ranks and it would be a very different world.

As for your second theory, I agree. The Roman Republic (and Empire) were vast, before and after the conversion. The Brotherhood, even if they weren't Romans themselves, would dedicate their resources to searching the world for POEs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if the Romans didn't want to take credit for killing Christ they would have excluded the whole portion of his crucifixion and so forth (the bible makes it quite clear that the romans were the ones who did it). In the AC frame, the brotherhood could have admitted to it as a way of showing the people that "this is not the old Roman empire, they killed Christ, we didn't.

In regards to the Jewish priests, remember its been established in both games that the brotherhood only uses religion as a means to an end, the Spaniard himself says he doesn't believe anything in the bible and he was the pope at the time. Just because the brotherhood had a chapter in the Jewish temple doesn't mean that they believed what they were preaching themselves.

The brotherhood is a group that use religion as a means to an end and likely none of them are religious, or at least don't conform to any of the established ones (ie them ending their meetings with "may the father of infinite wisdom guide us"). Them having a chapter in the jewish temple and then having Adolph Hitler attack the jewish people wouldn't mean anything to them. At most, they would tell Hitler not to attack the Templar members in the Jewish faith or have them flee to say America for "safe keeping".

JudgeQwerty
12-09-2009, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neo_Age:
Well if the Romans didn't want to take credit for killing Christ they would have excluded the whole portion of his crucifixion and so forth (the bible makes it quite clear that the romans were the ones who did it). In the AC frame, the brotherhood could have admitted to it as a way of showing the people that "this is not the old Roman empire, they killed Christ, we didn't.

In regards to the Jewish priests, remember its been established in both games that the brotherhood only uses religion as a means to an end, the Spaniard himself says he doesn't believe anything in the bible and he was the pope at the time. Just because the brotherhood had a chapter in the Jewish temple doesn't mean that they believed what they were preaching themselves.

The brotherhood is a group that use religion as a means to an end and likely none of them are religious, or at least don't conform to any of the established ones (ie them ending their meetings with "may the father of infinite wisdom guide us"). Them having a chapter in the jewish temple and then having Adolph Hitler attack the jewish people wouldn't mean anything to them. At most, they would tell Hitler not to attack the Templar members in the Jewish faith or have them flee to say America for "safe keeping". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh definitely, the Brotherhood are utterly nontheistic, I simply meant that if it were the Jewish priests solely responsible, it would be very different than if were a Roman plot. The Romans stay in power and continue evolving and expanding while the Jewish people and their leaders continue being... well, history speaks for itself. A Jewish chaper of the Brotherhood is one thing, but if the priesthood themselves instigated it and took the POE themselves, we'd probably call it the Staff of Moses instead of the Papal Staff.

(yes, I know, it was the Shroud they took.)

Sren001
12-09-2009, 11:01 AM
Very nice read, i wish i had thought like you guys sometimes, you all seem / sound so smart http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

steve_387
12-09-2009, 11:32 AM
Yeah ok i get what your saying what about subject 16's warning from the secret crusade (from the blood on the floor) from AC, wouldnt that impose a possible third party (that would be after the artifacts) in the equation,that you are leaving out?

Sparty2020
12-09-2009, 11:09 PM
Why Would there be a third faction?

mojsarn
12-10-2009, 10:06 AM
"Behold, the mark of Cain" that was awsome

SPECTRUMSAM
12-10-2009, 02:28 PM
Get me a time machine, i'll go back and find out myself. I enjoyed reading your Ultimate Templar theory, Assassin's Creed III has the answers. Look at that, it's 2009 and there's 2 years and a bit to make the third one. Brilliant deadline, 2012.