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View Full Version : Seraph looks like it came from Final Fantasy



Jason_Anderson
01-03-2011, 07:41 PM
Or some other anime with oversized toy weapons. Hate it.

Jason_Anderson
01-03-2011, 07:41 PM
Or some other anime with oversized toy weapons. Hate it.

Xenofex_086
01-04-2011, 01:40 AM
You are not alone (and it's not only the Seraph by the way), but it's too late for changes.

mcgslo
01-04-2011, 02:23 AM
i comented lots of times sword on angels in H5 and on concept art in H6 are bad design. It just doesnt look like sword at all... So i am also fighting for better sword design! Sword should look like swords not some glowy rod or whatever that thing is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

With sword as it is in concept art i just cant take angels seriously... its not enough that they are soft sexy females? Really at least give them good sword design.

SwampLord450
01-04-2011, 02:55 AM
I think the Seraph looks fine, I thought the HV Angels looked like Final Fantasy stuff, but the HVI Angels look good enough.

Xenofex_086
01-04-2011, 03:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SwampLord450:
I think the Seraph looks fine, I thought the HV Angels looked like Final Fantasy stuff, but the HVI Angels look good enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>How so? They are virtually the same, only now they have two toy swords instead of one toy sword.

SandroTheMaster
01-04-2011, 03:27 AM
The problem is twofold.

The swords have wonky handguards that are too unwieldy to be taken as serious weapons with blades too large.

Second the armor is stupid. Breastplate with actual (and accentuated) breasts; shoulderpad's that are, in fact, larger than her head (so much so that the head AND the hood hides behind it); silly scales going on too long; a huge decorative piece at her crotch and an unmovable, single-part, piece for her abdomen. This here is taken straight from Warhammer, but sillier. And what is up with the hood? They're freaking celestial beings sent from Elrath, your face should show confidence and inspire, not be hidden in shameful submission.

kodial79
01-04-2011, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SandroTheMaster:
The problem is twofold.

The swords have wonky handguards that are too unwieldy to be taken as serious weapons with blades too large.

Second the armor is stupid. Breastplate with actual (and accentuated) breasts; shoulderpad's that are, in fact, larger than her head (so much so that the head AND the hood hides behind it); silly scales going on too long; a huge decorative piece at her crotch and an unmovable, single-part, piece for her abdomen. This here is taken straight from Warhammer, but sillier. And what is up with the hood? They're freaking celestial beings sent from Elrath, your face should show confidence and inspire, not be hidden in shameful submission. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh brother, here we go with Angels and Final Fantasy again...

You know my opinion already: H6 artowork &gt; H5 artwork &gt; all other Heroes games.

But it's all a matter of taste. And if you don't like it, nothing can be done. Get used to it!

KingImp
01-04-2011, 09:41 AM
Speaking of Final Fantasy, if any of you have played FF XIII, you might notice a striking similarity between the Stronghold's Harpy/Fury and the Daemons (Incubus/Succubus, Skata'ne/Stikini, Yaksha/Yakshini, Rakshasa).

Ygds11
01-04-2011, 11:23 AM
Just posted on the "Ask your questions" thread about this. It is a real concern for me. I am not so concerned that the seraph looks like something from one of the newer final fantasies, more concerned that the thing is underwhelming. I know it's supposed to be a downgraded angel. But I was still hoping for something that matches the pure wow factor of the other champion units. their concept for Michael the arch angel does in fact convey that, the seraph does not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You are not alone (and it's not only the Seraph by the way), but it's too late for changes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well I suppose my question then was void. But I don't think that graphical and animation changes are impossible. Simple things like using a heavily modified Michael polygon set instead.

graphical modifications cannot be that difficult. It seems to me that the design process is mostly held up by concept artists. Though i think animations are much more complex requiring frame by frame manipulations, like stop motion capture. So perhaps we may want to decide on maybe one unit once the whole thing has been revealed to request graphical modification.

but in any case a single bad unit design is not going to break my confidence. I never play as haven anyway.

kodial79
01-04-2011, 12:08 PM
You do understand ofcourse, that even though some don't like it, others do. And it can't be changed just because the former asked for it.

Ygds11
01-04-2011, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You do understand ofcourse, that even though some don't like it, others do. And it can't be changed just because the former asked for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course I understand this. But which party is in the majority? I actually don't know which is in the majority. If the majority like it then, well I'll just live with it. But if those who want a change are in the majority I'll fight for it.

It's still just one unit, hardly a game breaker. But I think the attention it gets is important, it's a top tier unit, meant to be the representation of that factions greatest power.

I just don't think the angel design conveys power. I know you like the design. I don't want a return of H3 angel design, wouldn't fit. But I don't think the current design fits either. The arch angel Michael on the other hand looks like a step in the right direction. I am more interested in a compromise, than a huge overwhelming change. Certain attributes just make the seraph look pretentious. Most already cited. The gaudy hood, over-sized armor, the Madonna breast towers, the skirt and the unwieldy pair of swords. It looks like it dropped in from some other game, some say final fantasy, I don't really care. I just care that it looks like it fits. you place the artwork of the arch angel Michael with the rest of the line -up and it fits, you place the seraph in the line-up just doesn't look right.

Of course this is my opinion, certainly not a statement of fact. i just hope the majority rules. If I am in the minority, then I'll sit down and shut-up.

SwampLord450
01-04-2011, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SwampLord450:
I think the Seraph looks fine, I thought the HV Angels looked like Final Fantasy stuff, but the HVI Angels look good enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>How so? They are virtually the same, only now they have two toy swords instead of one toy sword. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Seraph is clearly female as opposed to the hooded androgenic Heroes V Angel, and I find her swords to be far more realistic looking then the Heroes V keyblade one.

Ygds11
01-04-2011, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The Seraph is clearly female as opposed to the hooded androgenic Heroes V Angel, and I find her swords to be far more realistic looking then the Heroes V keyblade one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely the seraph is an improvement (a small one) over the angel of H5. The swords are much better but still seem a little unwieldy.

Nightmus
01-04-2011, 07:12 PM
I don't like Seraph/Celestial art either.

H5 Angels by themselves were fine imo, it's just that their swords were absolutely AWFUL. I hate this design and I hate it's H6 successor, but to a lesser extent. Angel's swords in H6 are closer to what can be called "a sword", but still not enough. And dual wield just doesn't fit. They look awkward. Double two-handed swords is a berserk thing, doesn't fit a determined and tactical style of angel warriors.

I've no antipathy towards hoods, but I'm no fan of that kind of armor. From aesthetics point of view, the pelvis part of gear (don't know an english word for this one) looks too bulky with it's improportional thighs and an enormous buckle. To speak of which.... It resides much lower than a buckle should. Add in the breasts accentation and an Angel's equipment looks too frivolous. Damn, it's an angel! By all canons these creatures must look decent and suit the moral code. Ok, I get it that they don't have no décolleté or naked skin shown, but why accentuate breasts? Why accentuate a perineum area?

Xenofex_086
01-05-2011, 01:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ygds11:

Of course I understand this. But which party is in the majority? I actually don't know which is in the majority. If the majority like it then, well I'll just live with it. But if those who want a change are in the majority I'll fight for it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>We can easily find out via a poll. And I'm ready to bet some money that most of the votes will not be in favour of this petticoat. I would bet even more money that the model won't be changed even if most of the people hate it. It's too late... except if they have a "spare Seraph" in reserve.

kodial79
01-05-2011, 04:04 AM
I think though that for some reason, the people who post in these forums are the people who don't like the new designs.

Moreover, I'm sure new players will like this designs better than others, and we need new players.

Xenofex_086
01-05-2011, 06:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kodial79:
I think though that for some reason, the people who post in these forums are the people who don't like the new designs.

Moreover, I'm sure new players will like this designs better than others, and we need new players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Make the poll on Facebook then (if it has such an option). Or anywhere. I don't think it will make much of a difference.
And why do you think that this design (the concept art actually) will attract new players? There are no reasons to believe that these new players will like it more than to think that they will dislike it. Not everyone is overjoyed by the possibility to have anime-like kids' stuff all around, you know.

kodial79
01-05-2011, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kodial79:
I think though that for some reason, the people who post in these forums are the people who don't like the new designs.

Moreover, I'm sure new players will like this designs better than others, and we need new players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Make the poll on Facebook then (if it has such an option). Or anywhere. I don't think it will make much of a difference.
And why do you think that this design (the concept art actually) will attract new players? There are no reasons to believe that these new players will like it more than to think that they will dislike it. Not everyone is overjoyed by the possibility to have anime-like kids' stuff all around, you know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, yeah Facebook.. But just like you, I don't like it and don't have an account there :P

Well, it's just assumption based on numbers, if you're right that they look like Final Fantasy Angels... Then just look how many people love Final Fantasy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ofcourse it's cheap to even consider it, I know. I don't know anything about Final Fantasy save for Cloud and Sephiroth and I don't care if they look the part, really. I just like them anyway. So from that point of view, it doesn't matter to me that the reason more people were attracted to the series is because of the anime like designs.

Destruction3402
01-07-2011, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kodial79:

Oh brother, here we go with Angels and Final Fantasy again...

You know my opinion already: H6 artowork &gt; H5 artwork &gt; all other Heroes games.

But it's all a matter of taste. And if you don't like it, nothing can be done. Get used to it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know they probably won't change the model this late, but wouldn't you also want to show your disappointment if we turned the tables?

Though I do agree with you that Heroes VI is a huge improvement over Heroes V still (by the looks).
Heroes III still is the best looking game in the series in my opinion.

Ygds11
01-08-2011, 12:47 AM
I cannot say I have a beef with any other design. The game looks very good otherwise. I sort of have the feeling actually that Black Hole felt that they needed to maintain consistency with the H5 Angel design and therefore the H5 angel design was used as a base for the seraph design. I'm just wondering if someone would down the line mod the game to include a more fitting graphical design for the seraph. but I can always cross my fingers that they may change it's design, however unlikely that is to occur.

kodial79
01-08-2011, 01:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Destruction3402:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kodial79:

Oh brother, here we go with Angels and Final Fantasy again...

You know my opinion already: H6 artowork &gt; H5 artwork &gt; all other Heroes games.

But it's all a matter of taste. And if you don't like it, nothing can be done. Get used to it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know they probably won't change the model this late, but wouldn't you also want to show your disappointment if we turned the tables?

Though I do agree with you that Heroes VI is a huge improvement over Heroes V still (by the looks).
Heroes III still is the best looking game in the series in my opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Turn the tables to what? The only thing I would object to, is going back to H3's generic designs. And I don't think that would ever happen. The Angel is fine as is. But even if they would change it, I have confidence that they would still come up with something great. These designers are really good! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Xenofex_086
01-08-2011, 01:36 AM
LOL, Heroes III design generic? Sure it is, but the Heroes V/VI is even more generic and is bloody ridiculous on top of that. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's personal opinion (the ridiculous part - the generic one is not discussable).
Ygds11, the concept art is not Black Hole's handiwork and definitely not their decision. Ubisoft are calling the shots about it - whether because they wanted consistency or because they like this stuff for some reason.

kodial79
01-08-2011, 01:57 AM
H5 designs and ESPECIALLY H6 ones are far from being generic. It's not even funny to call them that. The only thing bad I could say for H5's designs, is the cartoonish feeling. Sure, they're not so unique and original either (though some of the H6 ones, I find them to be very original), but at least they're not your standard 'Elf', 'Orc', 'Goblin', 'Dwarf' etc. either.

SwampLord450
01-08-2011, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kodial79:
H5 designs and ESPECIALLY H6 ones are far from being generic. It's not even funny to call them that. The only thing bad I could say for H5's designs, is the cartoonish feeling. Sure, they're not so unique and original either (though some of the H6 ones, I find them to be very original), but at least they're not your standard 'Elf', 'Orc', 'Goblin', 'Dwarf' etc. either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, some of them (H5 ones) are, some of them aren't; same thing goes for Heroes III. Some less generic stuff, some more generic stuff.

I've been much more impressed with the Heroes VI units so far, fortunately.

Ygds11
01-09-2011, 11:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ygds11, the concept art is not Black Hole's handiwork and definitely not their decision. Ubisoft are calling the shots about it - whether because they wanted consistency or because they like this stuff for some reason. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh, forgive me. I spoke in ignorance. I really thought development studios handled these sorts of things, and Ubi just directed and approved what they produced, not told them EXACTLY what to produce. I have learned something today.

I am still a little perplexed as to why this design is so appealing to some people. As a biologist/biochemist I have (perhaps unjustified)expectations of form and function relationships. The only faction I see as exempt from this prejudice of mine is Inferno (because it's essence is chaos, therefore form function relationships no-longer apply). As for the others I have a very high expectation of design, so far these have in large degree been met (however messily).

The seraph is a glaring exception. While fantasy ought to be fantastic and push the boundaries beyond the impossible, form should match function. The hood seems to do nothing more than obscure peripheral vision. The style of the swords are not conducive to dual wielding. The entire design of the armor and battle skirt seems explicitly designed to produce drag on an ironically fast mobile being. Did the H3 angel convey things any better, no, wings not large enough, body too heavy, breastplate too large etc etc.

I could really rip on a ton of things biologically that even supposing these creatures can do what they do, they would not be capable of doing it given their anatomy not to mention physiology. These are void concerns, but form and function relationships are important to my sanity, and it seems they were used with all other designs, just not this one. The entire motif is clumsy. IN MY OPINION!

I just prefer the game that at least makes the attempt (however messily) to realize their fantasy world as something that could exist (anatomically and physically speaking [like F=ma physics] and to a lesser extent physiologically) rather than something that was obviously meant to be otherworldly and impossible, unless that is the origins of being of interest. The radiant glory for example seems to obey more laws of physics and form and function despite it's otherworldly origin in contrast to the seraph's Ashan(ly) origin. Still it's apparent ability to fly without wings is justifiable given it's origin. The Seraphs armor design is just impractical given that these angelic beings have always lived in a mortal realm with aspects similar to earth, the armor seems to be flashy, serving more of a ceremonial purpose than a battle ready one. But come to think of it, the entire Haven line up looks a little too fancy for battle. So on that level they fit, but on the level of function, their garb is impractical. The rest of the haven troops at least seem to be attired in such a way, that even though they look fancy, they look functional. The seraph just looks fancy, not functional.


With all this said, this is not a game breaker. I am even surprised I would spend as much time as I just have to write a post about it. Honestly if this is the worst this game has in it (from my point of view) then it might just be the best in the series.

kodial79
01-10-2011, 06:56 AM
You're thinking too much into it.


Anyway, You could apply that argument to the Griffin if you wish and you may have a point. But Angels are supernatural beings. Well, at least those of Ashan, are. Do you remember their dying animation? They went up in a ray of flashing light. And as it was explained, they don't die, they return to Elrath. This body of theirs, I believe, it's kept only as an avatar to interact with physical denizens of the world.

To think of that, one concludes that as an Angel is supernatural, as its body is just a means for interaction with the mortals, they do not rely on human senses and their natural limitations do not apply to the Angels. Therefore, they do not need eyes to see, so the hood does not obscure their vision. They're not hindered by these swords either. That's what it is to be supernatural.

Why then do they get defeated if they take too much physical or magical damage or why do they choose to appear like this. Well, we just don't know... :P

Ygds11
01-10-2011, 09:12 AM
sorry didn't know any of that. And I don't remember anything about the animation, because as I have explained several times, heroes 5 while it ought to work on my computer, overtaxes it to the extreme and causes a very quick overheat it resulting in an emergency shut off. But that is weird. Most lore seems to indicate a more physical existence than a supernatural one. the fact that they have any care for Ashan is odd. I thought the races merely chose their patrons, not were coexistent and of that deep of a relationship with them. Sorry wrong, design ok, and since I am in the minority, I'll do as I said and sit down and shut-up.