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View Full Version : Ki-84-IC - did it see combat?



Rammjaeger
02-24-2006, 10:39 AM
I tried to find valid information about this but couldn't. Most sources claim that 'few were built' and that's pretty much it.

This site claims that at least 94 were built (of course, that doesn't say much about whether it saw combat or not):
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/nakaki84.html#nakaki841 (http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Efbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/nakaki84.html#nakaki841)

This source claims trials were carried out in Dec 1944 but it is totally unclear whether it actually saw combat or not:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/30_mm_ho155_browning.htm

I know that after Japan surrendered, many IJAAF units destroyed all important official documents about their unit to prevent the Americans from prosecuting possible war criminals. This may explain what occurs to be a total lack of information about this variant of the Ki-84.

Will we ever know the truth? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Rammjaeger
02-24-2006, 10:39 AM
I tried to find valid information about this but couldn't. Most sources claim that 'few were built' and that's pretty much it.

This site claims that at least 94 were built (of course, that doesn't say much about whether it saw combat or not):
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/nakaki84.html#nakaki841 (http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Efbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/nakaki84.html#nakaki841)

This source claims trials were carried out in Dec 1944 but it is totally unclear whether it actually saw combat or not:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/30_mm_ho155_browning.htm

I know that after Japan surrendered, many IJAAF units destroyed all important official documents about their unit to prevent the Americans from prosecuting possible war criminals. This may explain what occurs to be a total lack of information about this variant of the Ki-84.

Will we ever know the truth? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Grey_Mouser67
02-24-2006, 06:19 PM
I have never found combat records of this type actually flying.

Hopefully someone will be able to comment and do so with some references. I dont fly it and I sure don't build missions with it....It is one of those nice to haves, but I'd take an F6F-5 with inboard Hispanos any day of the week, or even a Spit Mk V Lf with bombs

J_Anonymous
02-24-2006, 06:47 PM
Read this.

'ž"¿"*... ²"'ƒ"105 30mm機関 ²¨"""¦œ¿€"他¿"*... ²"'ƒ"155 30mm機関 ²¨"機"""2機製œ""Œ¦"""€"

in the following web,

http://earth.endless.ne.jp/users/mac0115/ki84.html

Just kidding... In case you can't read it... "Ki84-I Hei had type 'Ho-105' 30mm cannons in wings instead of 20mm of Ki84-I Otsu. Only prototypes were manufactured. In addition, 2 prototype aircrafts were manufactured with 'Ho-155' 30mm cannons." I don't have any first hand references written in Japanese.

darkhorizon11
02-24-2006, 10:52 PM
Slap me and call me stupid but is this the type we have in the game or no?

HarlockGN
02-25-2006, 12:01 AM
japanese source Famous Airplanes of the World (basically the best source around about japanese WW2 planes) issue 19 reports the Ki-84 represented here:

http://www.wbskins.hp-parrots.de/sites/jap/ki84i_182nd.htm

to be actually a type Hei (c)

Shimbu-tai (special attack unit) 182 was actually a combat unit, so it was at the very least operative.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hopefully someone will be able to comment and do so with some references. I dont fly it and I sure don't build missions with it....It is one of those nice to haves, but I'd take an F6F-5 with inboard Hispanos any day of the week, or even a Spit Mk V Lf with bombs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like we didn't have enough american planes or spitfires already...

JG52Karaya-X
02-25-2006, 03:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
Slap me and call me stupid but is this the type we have in the game or no? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of them. We have the Ia (2x12,7mm + 2x20mm), the Ib (4x20mm) and the Ic (2x20mm and 2x30mm).

VMF-214_Pappy
02-25-2006, 08:36 AM
Actually its a Tie-Fighter prototype from the Empire. It was actually armed with pumpkin chunkers not cannons.

Badsight.
02-25-2006, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HarlockGN:
Shimbu-tai (special attack unit) 182 was actually a combat unit, so it was at the very least operative.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>yes , they had 30mm cannon Hayates built & ready for service before the wars end , its just finding any info on their service record isnt easy

J_Anonymous
02-25-2006, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
Slap me and call me stupid but is this the type we have in the game or no? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, forgot to mention. Kou, Otsu, Hei, Tei, .... correcpond to a, b, c, d ,.... in old style Japanese. Nobody uses these notations any more today, though. From 1930's to 1945, during the era of Japan's militalism, using western languages spoken in countries which had colonies in Asia became a taboo. For service manuals etc.. they used Kou, Otsu and such.

What I find intriguing is, even during that time, engineers and officers for IJN as well as companies dealing with IJN used English notations extensively at least for internal documents (Navy officers were much better educated than their IJA counterparts, and far less fanatic, The best ones had been sent to Harvard, Princeton etc. for education).

J_Anonymous
02-25-2006, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HarlockGN:
Shimbu-tai (special attack unit) 182 was actually a combat unit, so it was at the very least operative.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>yes , they had 30mm cannon Hayates built & ready for service before the wars end , its just finding any info on their service record isnt easy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's interesting.... I didn't now. google.co.jp returns very few hits about Shimbu-tai indeed. Do you know Japanese spell of Shimbu-tai? (I might be using wrong kanji characters for google search).

KG51-Edelweis
02-25-2006, 01:37 PM
This might be of interest, it is from a site of
Nakajima Aircraft Industries ltd.1936ž1945
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima4.html
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/cl-pln/FR047.html
The second link goes into a bit more detail about the Ki84. Since I am a beginner in Japanese maybe there are others who can read more out of this?
Here is a site also based on the infos from Nakajima in English: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-84.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/%7Epettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-84.html)
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

J_Anonymous
02-25-2006, 02:01 PM
The contents of these links are mostly about well-known facts, and do not say much about details, unfortunatley. But thank you for the first link with nice illustrations! Years ago, I had a calander from what is now Fuji Heavy Industries (the manufacturer of "Subaru" cars with unique design, which originates from Nakajima Aircraft). These are the same illustrations used in that old calender.

Art-J
02-25-2006, 02:28 PM
The book about Japanese Army planes I've read claimed that 30mm cannon never got out of prototype stage, with some test variants built, but no serial production of reliable, final version achieved. Thus, as the author described, most of Ki-84C airframes produced were equipped with 20mms as a temporary replacement. This thesis sounds good, but cannot be backed up with any hard evidence though...

Cheers - Art

KG51-Edelweis
02-25-2006, 02:54 PM
Hi J_Anonymous,
lucky you! Wish my Japanese was better maybe I could then find such treasures too. Unfortunately I have to guess a lot. But then who knows a blind chicken sometimes finds a kernel.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

So out of curiosity are there any printed books showing Shigeo Koike´s art?

J_Anonymous
02-25-2006, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KG51-Edelweis:
Hi J_Anonymous,
lucky you! Wish my Japanese was better maybe I could then find such treasures too. Unfortunately I have to guess a lot. But then who knows a blind chicken sometimes finds a kernel.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

So out of curiosity are there any printed books showing Shigeo Koike´s art? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the link you posted, I found

http://www.nikko-pp.co.jp/info-koike/series.html

The English page is linked in this web page, just click "English."

In another page, they said they stopped the production of these illustration series, because Mr.Koike has become too busy with other projects. Some of the already printed copies seem still available. Try the e-mail address shown in the English page.

KG51-Edelweis
02-25-2006, 03:59 PM
Hi J_Anonymous,
forgot about that page you are right! Thanks for the reminder....I guess that happens when you brouse too much around in the internet.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

HarlockGN
02-25-2006, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
Do you know Japanese spell of Shimbu-tai? (I might be using wrong kanji characters for google search). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This should be the correct spelling: Œ¯*¦

Rammjaeger
02-26-2006, 06:15 AM
Thanks for the info everyone. IMO even if this variant actually saw combat, the recoil effect on the airframe - which AFAIK was of lower quality production than those of the earlier variants due to shortages - must have been enormous, rendering any attempt at sustained and precise cannon fire pretty much fruitless.

Waldo.Pepper
02-26-2006, 07:48 AM
From Francillon.

"Limited use." and "effective range 900m" Oh my!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Misc/528.jpg

3.JG51_BigBear
02-26-2006, 03:36 PM
Given the time at which it was produced and its intended role, interception of B-29s, coupled with its short range I wouldn't be surprised if most of the IC models ended up staying on the home islands for inclusion in the second airforce being prepared by the Japanese in preparation for the expected invasion of Japan. Some sources indicate that the "second airforce" fielded by the Japanese Army could have been almost as large as that already in the field and may have included a number of aircraft originally destined for the Navy.