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Afromike1
09-25-2008, 07:51 PM
This situation happens to me all the time, I always have trouble choosing from a hard turn/climb or a gradual turn/climb.

I always do the hard turns/climb because I always want to be on the bandit's 6 o'clock. But after 30s of fighting im left to a crawl and so I sometimes have to use the combat flaps.

Im always in a bf109 so whenever I try the gradual moves I can always loose sight of the bandit because the cockpit view is pretty bad in the 109. I also fear that if I do gradual, the bandit can come on my 6 o'clock a lot easier if I just went with the hard turns.

What are your advices in dogfights like this? Also it would help me more to explain what kind of moves you try to do in a bf109.

Afromike1
09-25-2008, 07:51 PM
This situation happens to me all the time, I always have trouble choosing from a hard turn/climb or a gradual turn/climb.

I always do the hard turns/climb because I always want to be on the bandit's 6 o'clock. But after 30s of fighting im left to a crawl and so I sometimes have to use the combat flaps.

Im always in a bf109 so whenever I try the gradual moves I can always loose sight of the bandit because the cockpit view is pretty bad in the 109. I also fear that if I do gradual, the bandit can come on my 6 o'clock a lot easier if I just went with the hard turns.

What are your advices in dogfights like this? Also it would help me more to explain what kind of moves you try to do in a bf109.

WTE_Galway
09-25-2008, 08:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afromike1:
This situation happens to me all the time, I always have trouble choosing from a hard turn/climb or a gradual turn/climb.

I always do the hard turns/climb because I always want to be on the bandit's 6 o'clock. But after 30s of fighting im left to a crawl and so I sometimes have to use the combat flaps.

Im always in a bf109 so whenever I try the gradual moves I can always loose sight of the bandit because the cockpit view is pretty bad in the 109. I also fear that if I do gradual, the bandit can come on my 6 o'clock a lot easier if I just went with the hard turns.

What are your advices in dogfights like this? Also it would help me more to explain what kind of moves you try to do in a bf109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Despite what the text message in game says the bf109 was fitted with normal flaps NOT combat (or fowler) flaps. Very few aircraft in the game actually had combat flaps. The p38 is one of the rare exceptions that had genuine combat flaps.

Normal flaps such as fitted to the 109 suck heaps of E.

Do not use flaps in combat in the 109.

struth
09-25-2008, 08:39 PM
Although...

flaps in the first position for a short burst can assist to tighten a turn due to enhancing the lift vector in the direction of the centre of the turn.

The Ki-43 had Fowler Flaps - or more clearly called 'Butterfly Flaps'. These were installed on the Oscar to enhance manouvrability and made it out-turn the Zero.

The 109 had a moment working against the turn installed into its tailplane angle of incidence which was calibrated to counter the lift derived from the 109's full flap setting in straight and level flight. In particular, this was its landing configuration.

Nevertheless, using first position flaps is a possibility for the 109 to tighten a turn and I would not be surprised if many 109 pilots actually used them in combat.

But as you say; normal flaps are used by degrees for various critical flight operations such as landing. I don't recall seeing graded flap settings on any instrument panel in il-2 such as are on modern aircraft - except for 'combat', 'takeoff' and 'landing' which are nevertheless close subsitutions.

M_Gunz
09-25-2008, 10:56 PM
The flaps just slow you down and make your turning circle smaller.

It works right up to where you don't have the speed to pull enough G's to get out of your own
way and still need to turn to avoid getting shot.

Well you can always dive out and escape, right?

WTE_Galway
09-25-2008, 11:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by struth:

The Ki-43 had Fowler Flaps -

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never knew that. That is very useful information. Flaps in combat in an Oscar are a good idea then.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by struth:

But as you say; normal flaps are used by degrees for various critical flight operations such as landing. I don't recall seeing graded flap settings on any instrument panel in il-2 such as are on modern aircraft - except for 'combat', 'takeoff' and 'landing' which are nevertheless close subsitutions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Control Setup ---&gt; Hotas Control ---&gt; Flaps

Put them on a slider or your mouse wheel.



Personally I wouldn't touch the flaps in combat in a 109 even if I was about to get my tail shot right off .... but each to their own, if it works for you then go for it.

struth
09-25-2008, 11:36 PM
I need a multi-buttoned mouse now. Thanks very much. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I guess it's intuitive to keep away from flaps if you want to manage energy. I was just canvassing the case where in a turn the target may be inside your turning circle. A case can be made in that situation that even if you may be losing critical speed with combat flaps down you may still be accelerating onto the target because of a change of trajectory in 3D (circular acceleration).

Kocur_
09-26-2008, 12:15 AM
Btw. operating Bf 109 flaps with mouse wheel would greatly improve realism and immersion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifFor in real Bf 109 a wheel, although considerably larger served the same purpose. Actually a two wheels mouse would be even better with the other wheel operating trim - as it was in reality. You could turn both wheels with one finger - AFAIK IRL pilots did the same with one palm - in order to lower flaps and trim the plane accordingly at the same time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WOLFPLAYER2007
09-26-2008, 12:56 AM
Its simple, just advoid using the 109 for turn fights with the exception of the F variant..the 109 is a very fast aircraft..use this for your own advantage...also this machine can outclimb most ww2 planes...again i say do not turn with enemy unless if he is using another 109..than it is all about skill (if you are talking about online fights)

Gadje
09-26-2008, 02:32 AM
To be of any help you need to say which model of 109 you are flying against which opponent.
You also seem to be describing a situation where the bandit is above you...is that correct?

P.FunkAdelic
09-26-2008, 03:25 AM
Is it me or is turning hard to get on an opponent's six in a 109 something of a misuse of the aircraft, especially in a climb?

Gadje
09-26-2008, 05:24 AM
I don't think its wise to generalise about 'all' 109's . The early, mid and late war are all different aircraft.
To say avoid turning hard is more often correct in a K or late G model(never say never!if you think it will give you a good percentage shot, do it!)but turning hard, particularily in the vertical is one of the F4 and G2's strengths. Then again it depends on what your opponent is flying.

You need to learn the strengths and weaknesses of all the planes you fly and fight against to be sure what is the best action to take. Simply it takes time and much practice I'm afraid.

Regarding the turn and climb: the spiral climb is one of the strengths of all the range of 109's it can be used in defense and attack equally effectively.

DKoor
09-26-2008, 05:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bf109: How do u best maintain Energy in dogfights </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Vertical http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

stalkervision
09-26-2008, 07:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
Btw. operating Bf 109 flaps with mouse wheel would greatly improve realism and immersion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifFor in real Bf 109 a wheel, although considerably larger served the same purpose. Actually a two wheels mouse would be even better with the other wheel operating trim - as it was in reality. You could turn both wheels with one finger - AFAIK IRL pilots did the same with one palm - in order to lower flaps and trim the plane accordingly at the same time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

great idea. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
09-26-2008, 09:28 AM
Follow from a distance on a lower G's path than your target. You fly inside his turns while
building speed. Use vertical maneuvering to fly a longer path at higher speed than the target
once you have greater speed than the target but want to stay behind him.

Perform directional changes while in the vertical through roll and gravity assist when possible.
A roller-coaster path gives you opportunities to turn through roll.

OTOH you can zoom until speed is best for turns and turn over the top of a slanted arc. That's
a wingover, probably the original Immelmann maneuver. You dive back down regaining stored speed
and you made your turn with some e-loss but only loss from a low-G turn (gravity assist) at less
speed than start and end. A wingover at good speed leaves you with the ability to change your
path to evade or react to enemies.

If you don't have much speed then still don't turn level. Unless you are flying flat hat low,
drop the nose in the start of the turn, roll and pitch into a descending arc that you climb
back out of in the 2nd half of the turn. Warning in P-38's -- you lose a lot of alt compared
to most any other I can think of. You will speed up in the start and be able to turn harder
than when holding level, even as you speed up. If you were following a level turning enemy
that you could only keep up behind then you will probably find yourself below and crossing his
circle at some angle .. unless he's noticed and taken counter-measures.

Kettenhunde
09-26-2008, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Despite what the text message in game says the bf109 was fitted with normal flaps NOT combat (or fowler) flaps. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fowler flaps and plain flaps are a design while "combat" flaps is a nonsense category the physics do not recognize.

While flaps do have different characteristics based on design, all flaps designs receive substantial coefficient of lift benefits with little increase to coefficient of drag in the first few degrees of flap movement. This corresponds to the "combat" flap position and is a characteristic of all flap designs.

All the best,

Crumpp

Bremspropeller
09-26-2008, 09:47 AM
Pilots who need "combat flaps" anyway have already done something wrong... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

p51srule
09-26-2008, 09:58 AM
True to that. I think combat flaps are a load of crap, Ive notice no diffrence in manuverbility when their on, all they do is slow u down. <span class="ev_code_RED">REMEMBER</span> SPEED IS LIFE IN A DOGFIGHT.

p51srule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Bremspropeller
09-26-2008, 10:02 AM
They give you more CL, thus more G avaliable, thus a tighter turn at the cost of increased drag and a higher energy-bleed.

That's only below corner-spedd, of course.

Ronbo5
09-26-2008, 11:51 AM
Re the Ki43. dang it does. reference: http://www.tillamookair.com/html/oscar.html

Learn something hidden everyday... I thought it was split flaps...

X32Wright
09-26-2008, 11:57 AM
As often said in Peter Townsend's 'DUEL OF EAGLES' book:

In a german plane you climb and dive more than you turn.

In a spit, you turn more than you climb and dive.

Very basic rule to follow. This means being high and always above your enemy in a 109, never get caught low and slow. I've always said that a '109 on low and slow is a dead one.'

The 109 is a 'vertical fighter' while the spit is a 'horizontal fighter'. So take advantage of your plane's ability to be able to hold it vertical far longer than your opponent specially on zooms and dives.

Afromike1
09-26-2008, 01:56 PM
Okay... I need to clarify some things that most of you are paying a bit too much attention on and some things I left out (my bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif)

Okay, so first off in this thread I said what I should do for TURNS or CLIMBS. Most people are talking about turns. And the 109 varient im mentioning is the G-6/AS (but I wouldnt mind if u talk about the g-2).

Some pple are mentioning that gradual climbs are better but after playing some more dogfights I noticed that when I pass the bandit (either at level or slightly like a kilo higher) there is a greater distance between the two planes. This causes problems for me because when they are farther away im doing more of face-to-face shots OR the bandit does a split S and gains enough speed to catch to my 6 o'clock as im doing the gradual climb.

X32Wright
09-26-2008, 02:34 PM
Then based on your description is that you aren't high enough and fast enough to be able to zoom climb vertically to be able to go DRAIN the E of your enemy by climbing more and circling around. You let your enemy get VERY close to you so that when they turn they are on your six. This is a BIG mistake. When you allow your enemy to get that close you are now forced to fight it horizontally if not you go DIVE which is a bigger mistake unless you are flying a FW.

Minimum vertical separation for a 109 vs an enemy is 1.5K meters and ideally a 2K meter advantage. Also you really have to watch your energy state relative to your enemy because if you don't you will be surprised that a spit can 'catch up' that quickly even on a climb! Why? because you've gone too slow and lost all your energy.

The G-6/AS is a very good plane and I consider this more like a 'Boosted G-2' variant. I however prefer to fly the G-10 for its speed and agility to fight last Spits as well as Mustangs. If I have to turn I fly the Bf-109 F4 instead since the MG-151/20 is just LOVELY!

Finally you can turn in a 109 ONLY IF you have EXCESS Energy and have enough ALT and only then only a single climb OR dive TURN AND NOTHING SUSTAINED.

WOLFPLAYER2007
09-26-2008, 03:51 PM
Speed is the key, a slow 109 is a flying brick, the mercedes benz engine is very powerfull, use it for advantage, no ww2 plane can climb better than the bf109 (with exception of the japanese planes that it is more like light structure than engine power) dive and climb, when im flying 109s i advoid turn fights because i know that i'll lose...so only turn when you have a lot of speed.

stalkervision
09-26-2008, 04:10 PM
The 109 is "KING of the VERTICAL" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7203/shot049qn9.jpg

Didn't know how to fight with the 109 till I found this out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gadje
09-26-2008, 05:15 PM
As Wright said.

On a personal note at 1k height advantage, I'd go flat past him at the merge.
If he looped up after me I'd wait till he was level and then do a steep climb.
He should have blown most of his energy getting on my tail and will have to level out.

If he is inexperienced he will climb up again and stall. You hammerhead over and take a shot.
If you miss he should have wasted more energy avoiding, so climb steeply and try again.
If you miss again thats probably it and time to leave.

On an equal merge I'd go past and shallow dive hollering for help http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Without lots of E advantage the late 109's ain't got much to offer v a Mrk IX Spit.

However lots of, lets call them inexperienced pilots, fly Spits, and they can be got by blackout in a spiral dive or overshoot by several methods.
30mm goodness is your friend.

If the Spit pilot is good, run and scream like a little girl and fly a 190 next time.

Xiolablu3
09-26-2008, 05:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gadje:

If the Spit pilot is good, run and scream like a little girl and fly a 190 next time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure about this. In my opinion the 109F4 and G2 models outclass the Spit V models. In game, I find that the only way that the Spit V can compete with my 109F4 or G2 is in the 4 cannon version so that he has massive firepower and that 1 small chance can turn into a definite kill.

Basically for the end of 1941 and 1942 the contemporary Bf109 was the better war machine, (in my opinion of course, other pilots may disagree). It took the Spitfire VII/VIII/IX Merlin 66 of 1943 to make the jump ahead, although it was always close between them whatever the marks.

The planes were usually so closely matched that the better pilot would make all the difference which ever mark or plane (109 or Spit) he was in. Whichever plane 'won' the campaign in terms of kills vs kills (BOB/Battle over France 1941/Malta) was usually the one over its homeland, until Germany was totally overwhelmed by numbers at the end of 1943 and 1944. Being over your own territory makes ALL the difference if the sides are quite equal in number. The SMALLEST bit of damage to the attacker can mean he loses a plane, the same damage to the defenders aircraft could be in the sky again in half an hour.

Xiolablu3
09-26-2008, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
The 109 is "KING of the VERTICAL" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7203/shot049qn9.jpg

Didn't know how to fight with the 109 till I found this out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Urgggghh, whats that ugly old game? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Only jesting mate.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Gadje
09-26-2008, 06:48 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xiolablu3:QUOTE]

Aye early doors thats true as the Mrk V is a slow-slow beastie but late war a Bf-109-GAS as the original poster mentioned v a Spit Mrk IX its not. You would have to be a much better pilot to win co-alt.

Hence you cannot lump how to fly all 109's in the same bag.

stalkervision
09-26-2008, 07:21 PM
Xiolablu3 your an absolute nutter butter bar buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Come over to the "dark side". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

you can actually use the 109/s in il-2 for a decent amount of horizontal manauvering and kill a spit this way given your a good enough pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Don't try it in BOB though. The bob 109 e 109 performs more as the original one did meaning spits will eat you alive in turn battles.

I have fought four ace Mustangs in a 109 in il-2 and beat them all. Just takes doing what the 109 does best. Spiral climb and zoom dive and climb.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Afterhours
09-26-2008, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Im always in a bf109 so whenever I try the gradual moves I can always loose sight of the bandit because the cockpit view is pretty bad in the 109.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only 109 models with a restricted view are the 109G2 and early G6 model, just don't fly them unless you have to.

You can solve every one of your dogfighting problems by simply quitting dogfighting.

You can solve every one of your problems with the 109 by switching to the FW190.

The 109 is a scrap-heap compared to the FW190.

WOLFPLAYER2007
09-26-2008, 10:05 PM
"The 109 is a scrap-heap compared to the FW190"

Well thats a very stupid thing to say my friend.

The 109 was the dorsal spine of the luftwaffe in ww2...the bf109 battled with the US bomber escorts over the skyes of Europe so that the fw190s could do their jobs...you know, fw190s sucked at high altitudes, their firepower is something from another planet for that decade, but even without the Messerschmitts, the Fws could do little.

No plane in ww2 shot down more enemies than the 109, so think 20 times before you post this.

Afterhours
09-26-2008, 10:18 PM
Wolfplayer,

Some of what you said may have been true in WWII, but not in this WWII SIM.

Also, I did not specify that I was talking about the 190A, which was bad at higher alt, your A55sumption that I was, was your second mistake.

The FW190 was just fine at high alt, if it was a Dora or Ta.....

Too bad you did not even think once before you made your post huh???

M_Gunz
09-26-2008, 10:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afromike1:
Okay... I need to clarify some things that most of you are paying a bit too much attention on and some things I left out (my bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif)

Okay, so first off in this thread I said what I should do for TURNS or CLIMBS. Most people are talking about turns. And the 109 varient im mentioning is the G-6/AS (but I wouldnt mind if u talk about the g-2).

Some pple are mentioning that gradual climbs are better but after playing some more dogfights I noticed that when I pass the bandit (either at level or slightly like a kilo higher) there is a greater distance between the two planes. This causes problems for me because when they are farther away im doing more of face-to-face shots OR the bandit does a split S and gains enough speed to catch to my 6 o'clock as im doing the gradual climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep working on ways to keep your energy and to keep building it.

Your next thing is position of yourself and others around you including headings and speeds
and future possible positions.

You are well beyond any guarantees of one or two things that will always keep you safe no
matter what happens. Speed, altitude and the plane you're in are your best friends with
everything the enemy doesn't know also on your side.

You might want to work on attacks that don't leave you shooting out in front of the enemy
(attack from straight behind, exit out the front) or close and anywhere near his speed.

Don't fly straight-line for many seconds on zooms and climbouts either. Spiral a plane
width or two (not much, enough for a long shot to miss) with small shifts in climb angle
now and then to keep them guessing.

MOH_MADMAN
09-27-2008, 12:39 AM
try this

keep speed high, do your best to anticipate where your opp will go, lead turn zoom keepin eye on him. lag pursuit so you stay away from his guns, cause that spitty has grapefruit in his pants and really wants to kill you. take him to a stall and turn tables, repeat for 20 times quickly till you have him on your 12, which is right when you should check your six for his buddy.

flaps use only short burst for nose up adjust, keep trim to light. explore the combos of flap and throttle

Sorry this thread got HJed so only now im reading it, lots of good stuff here.

you can dogfight in it, make sure the right parameters fit and fly your game not his, that means patience. try g10 or 14 tho.

---
"On an equal merge I'd go past and shallow dive hollering for help" Gadge

I take exception to this. Serve the expected, get the expected, youre on the dinner plate.
Instead, push him to make mistakes and learn from it. sometimes you have to be willing to get filled full of holes to see the angle you are going for. this is a chess game, so dont let trash talk fool you.

---
keep eye usually when you gain six, his help has arrived.

and finally
DONT underestimate the drag potential to enable yuour team mate/ wingman to kill without excess acm. everybody loves the fuzzy of a kill.
It is just as rewarding clearing the skies by clever drags for easy team kills.

hunters luck to you gl

ps these were alwasys the best threads, the teach someone else how to kick some *** threadshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Afterhours
09-27-2008, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I have fought four ace Mustangs in a 109 in il-2 and beat them all. Just takes doing what the 109 does best. Spiral climb and zoom dive and climb.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You did not beat four GOOD P-51 pilots, that is for sure.....

stalkervision
09-27-2008, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Afterhours:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I have fought four ace Mustangs in a 109 in il-2 and beat them all. Just takes doing what the 109 does best. Spiral climb and zoom dive and climb.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You did not beat four GOOD P-51 pilots, that is for sure..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



well that is for sure true! Maybe I should increase the number! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Ya but i could fight sixteen and your responce would be the same. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

psss http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Erich hartman beat 8 real and good Mustang pilots on his tail at one time.

Il-2's planes are so porked in everyway that is the reason I could care less about multiplayer.

Now when SOW comes out we will see if this has been corrected. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

M_Gunz
09-27-2008, 09:49 AM
How to maintain energy in dogfights... with loads of filler added.

stalkervision
09-27-2008, 10:14 AM
Maybe we should make a "lite" version of this huh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Is3Starsis
09-28-2008, 05:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Follow from a distance on a lower G's path than your target. You fly inside his turns while
building speed. Use vertical maneuvering to fly a longer path at higher speed than the target
once you have greater speed than the target but want to stay behind him.

Perform directional changes while in the vertical through roll and gravity assist when possible.
A roller-coaster path gives you opportunities to turn through roll.

OTOH you can zoom until speed is best for turns and turn over the top of a slanted arc. That's
a wingover, probably the original Immelmann maneuver. You dive back down regaining stored speed
and you made your turn with some e-loss but only loss from a low-G turn (gravity assist) at less
speed than start and end. A wingover at good speed leaves you with the ability to change your
path to evade or react to enemies.

If you don't have much speed then still don't turn level. Unless you are flying flat hat low,
drop the nose in the start of the turn, roll and pitch into a descending arc that you climb
back out of in the 2nd half of the turn. Warning in P-38's -- you lose a lot of alt compared
to most any other I can think of. You will speed up in the start and be able to turn harder
than when holding level, even as you speed up. If you were following a level turning enemy
that you could only keep up behind then you will probably find yourself below and crossing his
circle at some angle .. unless he's noticed and taken counter-measures. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just use your intuition and experience, don't spit all that theory please... nobody understands these words but some (no offense though)
Dogfight is not about theory but about intuitive action and situational awareness... feeling so to say.

Kind Regards

M_Gunz
09-28-2008, 08:38 AM
Well that's what I learned to do in combat sims back since about 1992 though I didn't learn
the words until 1998.

When you follow from a ways back then every turn he makes, you can follow with less of a turn.

That is a lower-energy path. The harder the turn, the more energy burned, the less hard turn
burns less energy so that's a lower energy path.

Staying behind with more speed takes flying a longer path. Up and down, you will have to burn
some energy to do that but you can limit that. As long as he's not going straight, you will
still be able to build more energy. If he does go straight then you can quit the yoyo and
close before he picks much speed up.

Dropping the nose going into a turn and recovering the alt on the last half... just try it.
Get a friend to circle and you follow at the same speed (adjust power) and then drop the
nose slightly and tighten your bank slightly while leaving enough that you still speed up
a little and go for losing a few 10's of meters before you nose up.
It makes a joke of level turns. I've closed with faster opponents in turns that way since
long ago, online 10 years ago I learned that only the good ones notice and change tactics.

Sorry if my text isn't opening it up for some, I learned the do before I learned the words
and I'm not so great with words alone.

ADD:
Dogfight is not about theory but about intuitive action and situational awareness... feeling so to say.

I'm telling HOW to fly a pursuit that allows you to build more speed than the pursued turner.
Take two good pilots as to SA and intuition but one wastes more energy than the other and
guess who's more likely to find himself shooting from above?
But then to me, flying more cleanly ties in to intuition and when I see someone who doesn't
then I know he's not going to be as good.

TITLE OF THE THREAD IS WHAT?

Engadin
09-28-2008, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p51srule:
True to that. I think combat flaps are a load of crap, Ive notice no diffrence in manuverbility when their on, all they do is slow u down. <span class="ev_code_RED">REMEMBER</span> SPEED IS LIFE IN A DOGFIGHT.

p51srule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right for a P51er like you, wrong for many other fighters. A B&Zer is an easy prey for a fairly experienced pilot, just on leaving his attack on any of your mates / other targets and start to clim away. Just watch him coming down, and full throttle to his tail. If he is a real B&Zer he won´t really turn, so it will be very easy to follow him. And as he breaks the attack and stars climbing, you can spread a good ammount of lead in his way up, and eventually follow him.

IMHO, even faultlessly performed B&Z is very far from being a safe tactic at all. The only 'advantage' is that you have better views than a T&Ber heavily sweating a few feet over the deck, but adrenaline won´t pump up your blood system the same way either.

Fight online a lot and choose which of the tactics fits your aim and skill the best. If you get downed too often, work out your offline back for a while and get back online and check if things improve. As your flying skills and aim change - to better, usually http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - you can change your tactics too. No problemo amigo. This easy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
09-28-2008, 02:15 PM
Faultlessly performed BnZ does not hit along the 6-12 line of the target nor does it zoom
back up after the strike. It hits from the side or above and disappears behind the target.

WOLFPLAYER2007
09-28-2008, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Engadin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p51srule:
True to that. I think combat flaps are a load of crap, Ive notice no diffrence in manuverbility when their on, all they do is slow u down. <span class="ev_code_RED">REMEMBER</span> SPEED IS LIFE IN A DOGFIGHT.

p51srule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right for a P51er like you, wrong for many other fighters. A B&Zer is an easy prey for a fairly experienced pilot, just on leaving his attack on any of your mates / other targets and start to clim away. Just watch him coming down, and full throttle to his tail. If he is a real B&Zer he won´t really turn, so it will be very easy to follow him. And as he breaks the attack and stars climbing, you can spread a good ammount of lead in his way up, and eventually follow him.

IMHO, even faultlessly performed B&Z is very far from being a safe tactic at all. The only 'advantage' is that you have better views than a T&Ber heavily sweating a few feet over the deck, but adrenaline won´t pump up your blood system the same way either.

Fight online a lot and choose which of the tactics fits your aim and skill the best. If you get downed too often, work out your offline back for a while and get back online and check if things improve. As your flying skills and aim change - to better, usually http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - you can change your tactics too. No problemo amigo. This easy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I desagree in some parts, logically, B&Zer aircrafts are powerfull, and eventually the oponent who is being attack in the majority of time is a T&B (T&B aircraft is slower and lighter) unless if the attacked one is using another boom and zoom ac.

Of course that there are exceptions like latest versions of the spitfire, but even i think that most of them are not well modelled in the game.

just my humble opinion.

struth
09-28-2008, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
As often said in Peter Townsend's 'DUEL OF EAGLES' book:

In a german plane you climb and dive more than you turn.

In a spit, you turn more than you climb and dive.

Very basic rule to follow. This means being high and always above your enemy in a 109, never get caught low and slow. I've always said that a '109 on low and slow is a dead one.'

The 109 is a 'vertical fighter' while the spit is a 'horizontal fighter'. So take advantage of your plane's ability to be able to hold it vertical far longer than your opponent specially on zooms and dives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although the following figures rate the spitfire V pretty well:

109-G6 =&gt; 6000m in 6 minutes (19,868ft)

Spitfire V =&gt; 2155m/min (Max ROC at sea level)
initial ROC 1445m/min

Xiolablu3
09-29-2008, 12:21 PM
109G6 vs Spit V isnt really a great comprison.

1: Its the worst performing Bf109.

2: Although its the most numerous, this was in late 1943/early 44 when its contemporary was the Spit IX not V.
(I know there were still MkV's in service but these were usually being phased out or in the lesser operational sectors in Europe)

3: There were so many different MkV's in terms of speed/loadout/filters


IMO a better coparison would be the Spit V to the 109F, or the 109G6 to the SPit VIII or IX depending if you are in Europe or the Med. (SPit VIII for Med, IX for Europe)

M_Gunz
09-29-2008, 01:25 PM
Put 43 109 vs 43 P-51 and which is the angles fighter?
Only saying, what a plane is suited to depends on the opposition.