PDA

View Full Version : Modern Aerobatic Planes



zaGURUinzaSKY
06-13-2005, 06:31 AM
I was wondering if anybody have ever thought about a payware addon for PF with modern aerobatic planes such as Extra300... Cap232... Pitts...
It would be really great addon, I would pay a lot of money for that...

Currently PF has the best flight model, and currently there is no aerobatic sims... why not?

There are a lot of people using PF just for formation or solo aerobatics...

zaGURUinzaSKY
06-13-2005, 06:31 AM
I was wondering if anybody have ever thought about a payware addon for PF with modern aerobatic planes such as Extra300... Cap232... Pitts...
It would be really great addon, I would pay a lot of money for that...

Currently PF has the best flight model, and currently there is no aerobatic sims... why not?

There are a lot of people using PF just for formation or solo aerobatics...

new-fherathras
06-13-2005, 10:30 AM
That would be a waste of developer-recourses,
there is simply not enough customers that are willing to pay for a product where you simply fly around


this might work for games like Microsoft fligt simulator
but they have bigger maps, more planes, random weather, realish radio, open source, ect.



I would welcome the product thoug, i just dont think that it would work for the il-2 engine.

zaGURUinzaSKY
06-13-2005, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
there is simply not enough customers that are willing to pay for a product where you simply fly around,this might work for games like Microsoft fligt simulator but they have bigger maps, more planes, random weather, realish radio, open source, ect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can u say this? are u a market expert who did some survey?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I just dont think that it would work for the il-2 engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not?

MADP
06-13-2005, 12:53 PM
FS9 has an Extra in the default plane set. There are numerous 3rd party freeware and payware aerobatic downloads available for FS9. My favorite might be the Super Decathlon. I used to instruct aerobatics in it and the modellers did a really good job in replicating the plane. It spins and snaps like it should, and it's inverted flight characteristics are right-on. Perhaps best, it handles on the ground like a tail-dragger should -- most FS and all PF tailwheel aircraft are pretty weak in the realism department.

FWIW, I consider PF to be more arcade-like and the truly great 3rd party planes in FS9 to be the most life-like. But it sure is fun blowing things up in PF!

TX-EcoDragon
06-13-2005, 12:55 PM
That'd be great!

new-fherathras
06-13-2005, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zaGURUinzaSKY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
there is simply not enough customers that are willing to pay for a product where you simply fly around,this might work for games like Microsoft fligt simulator but they have bigger maps, more planes, random weather, realish radio, open source, ect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can u say this? are u a market expert who did some survey?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>



there are 2-3 earobatics sims out there at the moment, i dont remember theyr titles, but perhaps you have heard of them?

they do not sell well.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I just dont think that it would work for the il-2 engine.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zaGURUinzaSKY:
Why not?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there simply is not enough time or manpower, not to mention funding for Maddox to incorporate
modern earobatics planes into the sim,

look, they have trouble getting enough ww2 planes in already.



once again, I would welcome earobatic planes in il-2, I just dont think its posible at the moment without 1c giving up on any further development of FB/AEP/PF and BoB.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AerialTarget
06-14-2005, 01:20 AM
Anyway, modern planes, as with most objects, simply have no character compared with old ones. This even applies to fighter jets; the F/A-18 Hornet has power, but the P-38 Lightning has style!

TX-EcoDragon
06-14-2005, 01:35 AM
See. . the response is totally different in a combat sim forum than it is in a non-combat sim, or in the real world pilot community. . . that's the same reason that it's so hard to get a formation team with any skill or motivation together. . . we are selecting from the wrong crowd!! Now, if we make sure there are lots of crashes and big explosions we might have a chance here! :-D

AerialTarget
06-14-2005, 01:44 AM
Actually, I'd love to join a group of virtual flyers willing to spend much time flying in formation. However, I'd need to be in a warbird, preferably my P-38! My friend complains that I'm always wanting to fly in formation. He'd much rather shoot things down. I love that, too, but what most people forget is that knowing how to fly in formation should come before knowing how to shoot things down!

zaGURUinzaSKY
06-14-2005, 02:13 AM
Addons for FS2004 sell copies out there, I think the problem is the limit of the flight model, that in FS 2004 sucks, but in PF starts to work..

I think many non-gamers-shooting-everything-pilots would buy a working Extra and I'm not talking about Microsoft crappy flight model... (but it pretty obvious they don't read the PF forums...)

See Condor Soaring Competition, tons of real glider pilots in the forum, they don't even know about PF... Condor is the example of a working sim for real pilots. There are tons of software engeneer out there... The world of aviation is not made just by PF simmers, consider this.

Also a nice light fighter would be interesting, with both skin for combat and aerobatic (like the MB339 or the Hawk...)

msalama
06-14-2005, 02:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My favorite might be the Super Decathlon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which Super Decathlon are you referring to? RealAir's?

zaGURUinzaSKY
06-14-2005, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Currently PF has the best flight model, and currently there is no aerobatic sims... why not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, actuallt a very good aerobatic sim is Condor Soaring Competition, but is just for gliders http://www.condorsoaring.com/

zaGURUinzaSKY
06-14-2005, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
there is simply not enough customers that are willing to pay for a product where you simply fly around </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simply fly around is what all world general aviation simply does.. that's why FS2004 is the n#1 sim in the shops...

filiperafaeli
06-14-2005, 02:57 AM
I can help to do a perfect flight model for Super Decthlon.

zaGURUinzaSKY
06-14-2005, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Actually, I'd love to join a group of virtual flyers willing to spend much time flying in formation. However, I'd need to be in a warbird, preferably my P-38! My friend complains that I'm always wanting to fly in formation. He'd much rather shoot things down. I love that, too, but what most people forget is that knowing how to fly in formation should come before knowing how to shoot things down! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wanna fly with us? Write something in our forum at IAT Website

MADP
06-14-2005, 05:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My favorite might be the Super Decathlon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which Super Decathlon are you referring to? RealAir's? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the Long Island Classics Design Team freeware 8KCAB...here's a link: http://www.simviation.com/fs2004props7.htm

msalama
06-14-2005, 06:27 AM
Ok, thanx MADP! Downloading immediately...

TX-EcoDragon
06-26-2005, 07:46 PM
How many G do you guys get out of that SuperD at 130 or greater mph??? Can you get +6 or higher? I have used that one for a while and like it since it looks pretty good, but at least in my installation I can not get very accurate responses from the controls. . .it acts as if there is only partial travel, and of course I have verified controler calibration.

p1ngu666
06-26-2005, 07:52 PM
oleg my 109 cant out turn or roll the sukoi, it is blatent bias http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

please correct this sukoi i cant even outclimb it as it climbs verticaly!!

please fix, and S! oleg.


incidently ive seen a sukoi in the flesh, jaw dropping performance. model flightsims have mental planes like that, infact u get real life models that are even more mental http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

NonWonderDog
06-26-2005, 09:58 PM
I've got an idea. Since no one wants to fly unarmed planes, the modern aerobatic planes would be armed with fireworks. I'm thinking a big roman candle in the nose, mortar tubes hung under the wings, maybe a couple racks of bottle rockets R4M style, and *definitely* some fountains in the exhaust stacks.

This way, everyone's happy. The pilots get their aerobatic planes and the more primal-instincted among us get their explosions. Come on, who wouldn't want to fly through one of those big red heart mortars? There could even be competitions for who could draw the best arrow through it with the tail smoke!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


(EDIT -- DIE SPELLING ERRORS, DIE!)

bolillo_loco
06-27-2005, 01:45 AM
it is well known that flight sims, be they combat or civilian. you do not have to be some market analist to figure it out. go into all the local stores that sell video games in your area. console games will dominate the shelves and the cd rom games for P/C will look like a token force in comparision. of the p/c games I bet less than 1% make up flight sims of all types. None of my real life friends play flight sims of any type, then again I dont have any real life friends, but seriously I asked every one of my friends why they dont like them and they all respond "they are too hard to play"

Josiv_
06-27-2005, 03:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by new-fherathras:

there are 2-3 earobatics sims out there at the moment, i dont remember theyr titles, but perhaps you have heard of them?

they do not sell well.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never heard of them, are you sure they are prop planes sims?

member of - Polish Aerobatic Team (http://www.eagles.neostrada.pl)

zaGURUinzaSKY
06-27-2005, 04:27 AM
I've never heard of them too..

MADP
06-27-2005, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
How many G do you guys get out of that SuperD at 130 or greater mph??? Can you get +6 or higher? I have used that one for a while and like it since it looks pretty good, but at least in my installation I can not get very accurate responses from the controls. . .it acts as if there is only partial travel, and of course I have verified controler calibration. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never tried to see how many G's I could pull in the 8KCAB. I can snap it so I assume I have sufficient elevator authority. Loops and Immelmans are no problem...never looked at the g-meter -- maybe I'll have to go take a peek.

TX-EcoDragon
06-29-2005, 01:04 AM
Here is a little inspiration!

http://www.blaineaustin.com/FAI_WGP_2002.wmv

PapaFly
06-29-2005, 02:46 AM
Add one or two planes (extra300L, Su31), there's enough folks around with a true interest for excellent aerobatics. After each patch changing the fms i take some planes and do solo aerobatics to get the feel for the fm.
A high-performance aerobatic plane is the ideal benchmark for your engine: no other plane can fly such maneuvers. If your physics engine is so good, let us exploit it.

zaGURUinzaSKY
06-29-2005, 03:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PapaFly: After each patch changing the fms i take some planes and do solo aerobatics to get the feel for the fm.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah that's what I do all the time... there are many people interested in aerobatic but you'll never find their in a combat forum. Just go in any aeroclub and ask pilots...

LEXX_Luthor
06-29-2005, 07:02 AM
What might work is historic era aerobatic planes from the 1930s-1940s. But then in a way we already have them -- maybe The Dogfight(tm) is a form of applied or "practical" aerobatics.

So, we have the Explosion simmers and the Aerobatic simmers. What we need are Air Warfare simmers. Need more bombers and simulation creation tools though.

han freak solo
06-29-2005, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
None of my real life friends play flight sims of any type, then again I dont have any real life friends, but seriously I asked every one of my friends why they dont like them and they all respond "they are too hard to play" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got that right! I've tried to convert a couple of friends, too. One of them was a real pilot. The other preferred FPS games. Both of them tried IL2FBAEP. The learning curve keeps many people away, that's for sure.

The only sim that I converted a couple of co-workers to a few years back was CFS1. That kind of tells you something about sims right there. The pursuit of realism has definitely made simming a niche market.

I'm glad I fell into to the niche. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LEXX_Luthor
06-29-2005, 08:59 AM
hans:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The learning curve keeps many people away, that's for sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is not the reason, but its easier to "say" that is the reason.

The sim Developers don't know how to introduce realistic flight simming to the common PC gamer through the game itself. There are methods, and they bear close resemblance to methods of education or instruction that offer immersive gameplay during the building of experience.

TX-EcoDragon
06-29-2005, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by han freak solo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
None of my real life friends play flight sims of any type, then again I dont have any real life friends, but seriously I asked every one of my friends why they dont like them and they all respond "they are too hard to play" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got that right! I've tried to convert a couple of friends, too. One of them was a real pilot. The other preferred FPS games. Both of them tried IL2FBAEP. The learning curve keeps many people away, that's for sure.

The only sim that I converted a couple of co-workers to a few years back was CFS1. That kind of tells you something about sims right there. The pursuit of realism has definitely made simming a niche market.

I'm glad I fell into to the niche. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it's niche. . .just like real world aviation is. . .but within that niche you have passionate and dedicated people who won't get their kicks elsewhere.

The way to market that niche item is to make it appeal to those already in that niche more than any other sim can. I am one such example of someone who really wasn't at all interested in a shoot'em up combat game, I owned plenty of sims, but never really expected something from a company I'd never heard of modeling something that I didn't really feel I'd be into. Of course I heard from someone I respected that this sim was one of the best he'd used and so I bought it and sure enough, it was pretty good! There was no marketing, no advertisements to see, and even if I had seen them they'd all sound the same and I'm not usually swayed by such things. What worked for me was the understanding that this had something to offer someone like my friend who was passionate about aviation, not necessarily combat or the history of war (even though he's a Navy pilot). My point is that to secure a sim in an already niche market I think a developer must produce a sim of such fidelity that we won't have to convert real world pilots, we will just let them try it and know that will be enough for most of them to enjoy flying the FM, sure they may never venture into an online dogfight server, but once established their, the niche market will be a much larger niche market! I have gotten a couple of pilots I know into this sim usually by showing them the formation aerobatics video of my team, and then getting them to try that aspect out. Most of them have never bothered to load ammo, and have stuck with it for years now. The real trouble is that most of them aren't gamers of course so they don't usually have a computer that's quite up to snuff. . . but nothing wrong with giving them a reason to change that!

Oleg doesn't have the resources of Moneyman Gates but he still makes a far superior product, I'd like to see that continue, and I feel the best way to secure a hold on the market is to not rely on the fluff (you know, lots of new planes, big explosions, and other fluffy stuff) and showcase the heart of the sim, the flight model, and there is no better way than an aerobatics sim. . . even though that will the be the ultimate challenge since the FM has to continually improve (well, unless it it were perfect, but since that's near impossible we might as well not even mention it). It could just be an add-on that the combat folks could ignore if they so chose. I am sure that the 3D models could be developed by 3rd part modelers then it's just up to the developer to give them an accurate FM.

LEXX_Luthor
06-29-2005, 04:09 PM
TX-EcoDragon:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I feel the best way to secure a hold on the market is to not rely on the fluff (you know, lots of new planes, big explosions, and other fluffy stuff) and showcase the heart of the sim, the flight model, and there is no better way than an aerobatics sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That might be the *best* way to ensure combat flight sims remain a niche market. Air Warfare Environment is the heart of a combat flight sim, or should be. Lacking that we have an arcade Dogfight game with a fantastic aerobatic flight model; a game that most paying customers tire of shortly no matter the flight model--but not all, the Niche remainder, including you and I, are posting at this webboard.

Flight model is one of many tools that can be used to interact with the simulated air war environment. The worst way to simulate air warfare is through a primary focus on "fun" aerobatics. Although, there was that Japanese pilot who, largely for Fun and to see if it could be Done, looped a "Val" bomber with a 250kg bomb over his own airfield. Saburo/Caiden wrote about that "Betty" bomber pilot who looped during his final blazing moment over New Guinea.

Primary focus should be on generating air war or battlefield environments first, then the tools to interact with it such as FM, DM, weapons, etc... Aerobatics alone is good for a Peacetime civil aerobatic simulation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dash_C.
06-29-2005, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Actually, I'd love to join a group of virtual flyers willing to spend much time flying in formation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got a few people in the dorms interested in IL2 last semester, and aerobatic flying with people you know over the LAN is the most fun I've had in IL2.

TX-EcoDragon
06-29-2005, 11:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
TX-EcoDragon:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I feel the best way to secure a hold on the market is to not rely on the fluff (you know, lots of new planes, big explosions, and other fluffy stuff) and showcase the heart of the sim, the flight model, and there is no better way than an aerobatics sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That might be the *best* way to ensure combat flight sims remain a niche market. Air Warfare Environment is the heart of a combat flight sim, or should be. Lacking that we have an arcade Dogfight game with a fantastic aerobatic flight model; a game that most paying customers tire of shortly no matter the flight model--but not all, the Niche remainder, including you and I, are posting at this webboard.

Flight model is one of many tools that can be used to interact with the simulated air war environment. The worst way to simulate air warfare is through a primary focus on "fun" aerobatics. Although, there was that Japanese pilot who, largely for Fun and to see if it could be Done, looped a "Val" bomber with a 250kg bomb over his own airfield. Saburo/Caiden wrote about that "Betty" bomber pilot who looped during his final blazing moment over New Guinea.

Primary focus should be on generating air war or battlefield environments first, then the tools to interact with it such as FM, DM, weapons, etc... Aerobatics alone is good for a Peacetime civil aerobatic simulation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean at the expense of what we already have! What I mean is that in addition to the current niche market, we could add the full scale or flight sim nut niche into the IL-2/FB combat niche. . . and have a slightly larger niche. . lol
I don't think there is really any chance that sims will ever not be a niche market. . . so we might as well recognize that. . . but I hope that doesn't stop people like Oleg from staying in the genre, and doing what it takes to improve the sim, and in so doing, to expand their market to the people who currently wouldn't look twice a "WWII combat game".

Oh and BTW, if the best FM in a sim where in a combat and aerobatic sim, it wouldnt be long before the demand for that sim to incorporate more realistic weather effects, modern civillian aircraft, modern citties and lanscapes, and the capacity for IFR procedures. . . since the GA sim genre as a whole sorely needs is a more an accurate FM.