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View Full Version : IL2 German guns VS real life?



TheBandit_76
01-30-2007, 09:26 PM
I love that the Mustangs, Lightning and Thunderbolt get away. From this footage it looks like it was much harder to shoot down US fighters in real life than in our little game.

190 Gun Camera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-q2TsttM10&NR)

First Mustang seemed to be NooB piloted, P38 appears to reef it and out turn the 190 at the last moment, P47 takes considerable damage and seemed to be on par with 190 turning, and the second Mustang appears to be turning the tables on the 190 in the end. Hope he got away.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

TheBandit_76
01-30-2007, 09:26 PM
I love that the Mustangs, Lightning and Thunderbolt get away. From this footage it looks like it was much harder to shoot down US fighters in real life than in our little game.

190 Gun Camera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-q2TsttM10&NR)

First Mustang seemed to be NooB piloted, P38 appears to reef it and out turn the 190 at the last moment, P47 takes considerable damage and seemed to be on par with 190 turning, and the second Mustang appears to be turning the tables on the 190 in the end. Hope he got away.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Jaws2002
01-30-2007, 11:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...and the second Mustang appears to be turning the tables on the 190 in the end. Hope he got away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt any of this got away. Specially the last Mustang. you can see clearly how he gets all his belly shot up in the last pass.

But man those A-8's were chopping the poor bombers when they got to them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Waldo.Pepper
01-31-2007, 12:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek

From me to you.

Tator_Totts
01-31-2007, 12:53 AM
http://home.carolina.rr.com/squad/Smileys/pop1.gif

JG52Karaya-X
01-31-2007, 01:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek

From me to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So thats how they made the clipped wing Spitfires! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Xiolablu3
01-31-2007, 02:11 AM
The first Mustang only seems to get hit with 1 20mm round.

The P38 times his break perfectly and the German is going too fast to make the same turn.

I know we cant see the damage too well but man! it shows how tough the 4 engined heavies were. That 110 clip raking the defenceless B17 (I think the crew has bailed and he is using it for target practise, noone in any of the turrets.) He is hammering the B17 and they just seem to be exploding on the edge of the wing with very little visible damage. Maybe he is just using machine guns.

The bomber at 4:38 only lasts a couple of seconds burst, then bursts into flames with big explosions.

I guess in the end, a lot of it is down to luck. SOme will go down after 1 sec burst. Others will seem to soak up a lot of damage, thats just how it is. Of course heavy 20mm and 30mm cannon will help no end in making sure they go down in the first few secs. Imagine trying to attack those bombers with .303 or .50 cal.

JG52Karaya-X
01-31-2007, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The bomber at 4:38 only lasts a couple of seconds burst, then bursts into flames with big explosions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fighter in this case is a FW190A8 with 2xMk108s in the wings.

koivis
01-31-2007, 04:48 AM
See how that last Bf 110 trying to shoot a poor DB-3, wobbles from side to side? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-31-2007, 05:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by koivis:
See how that last Bf 110 trying to shoot a poor DB-3, wobbles from side to side? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, the wobble, that the rest of us armchair fliers cannot take...

Reality vs Virtuality...

anarchy52
01-31-2007, 05:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
P47 takes considerable damage and seemed to be on par with 190 turning, and the second Mustang appears to be turning the tables on the 190 in the end. Hope he got away.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-47: I only noticed a hit on left wing root. In the beginning both were turning VERY hard and were pretty close, their turn being limited by G forces the pilots could take (FW being a bit better, probably due to FW pilot's better G tolerance and/or the position FW pilot sits in).
Notice that FW-190 is turning inside the P-47's turn. As the speed drops, FW easily gets the gun solution.

P-51 being attacked from dead 6 was lucky receiving only a single hit.

Second P-51 got hit badly from 1 O'clock low. Assuming the pilot wasn't hit...engine, radiator, I doubt it could make it home.

P-38 was an ace. Balls of steel, perfect timing for the break. I wonder what happened next.

Clips show that FW-190 could dogfight, they were not helpless and limited to high speed drive by shooting as they are in game.

Compare the clip of FW-190 fighting La-5 with the game. In game FW-190 would die in the next 20 seconds unless it dove straight down, full power from minimum of 3000m.

TheBandit_76
01-31-2007, 06:05 AM
True, when a 190 attempts to saddle up on my Oleg La5 I grin from ear to ear cuz the fun is just beginning......

JG52Karaya-X
01-31-2007, 06:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
P-38 was an ace. Balls of steel, perfect timing for the break. I wonder what happened next. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looked to me that after the P38 broke to the left the FW190 zoomed up, maybe for a high Yoyo? or just to get above and wait for another chance to bounce.

BSS_CUDA
01-31-2007, 06:25 AM
WTH the 38 didn't lose his tail boom?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! the guy must have been using print screen to throw off the lufty on his six. because we all know that it only takes 1 round to cripple a 38.

rnzoli
01-31-2007, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by koivis:
See how that last Bf 110 trying to shoot a poor DB-3, wobbles from side to side? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, the wobble, that the rest of us armchair fliers cannot take...

Reality vs Virtuality... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Intersting point, which I was afraid to bring up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You can see the swaying and wobbling on gun mounted cameras. People would literally scream the head off from Oleg's shoulder, if they would have to work on their precious online kills in such environment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, two other points to consider, before taking the high moral ground on this.

1. We don't know the actual input fromt he pilot. Was some of the swaying induced by the pilots themselves, to 'hose' the target with bullets? Was the swaying caused by the turbulence/vortices caused by the target ahead (not modelled at all in IL-2)?

2. IMO the RL pilots had a better understanding how their plane will swing. An armchair pilot will only have the visual clues, while a real pilot will sense it much better, with his inner ears. Therefore a RL pilot may be in a much better position to counter-act the swaying/wobbling or simple live with it and fire in the right moments. I certainly recall that I can "feel" when a jetliner is side-slipping, but it's very hard for me to recognize side-slipping (e.g., untrimmed rudder) in the game only from visual clues on the screen.

joeap
01-31-2007, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by koivis:
See how that last Bf 110 trying to shoot a poor DB-3, wobbles from side to side? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, the wobble, that the rest of us armchair fliers cannot take...

Reality vs Virtuality... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Intersting point, which I was afraid to bring up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You can see the swaying and wobbling on gun mounted cameras. People would literally scream the head off from Oleg's shoulder, if they would have to work on their precious online kills in such environment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, two other points to consider, before taking the high moral ground on this.

1. We don't know the actual input fromt he pilot. Was some of the swaying induced by the pilots themselves, to 'hose' the target with bullets? Was the swaying caused by the turbulence/vortices caused by the target ahead (not modelled at all in IL-2)?

2. IMO the RL pilots had a better understanding how their plane will swing. An armchair pilot will only have the visual clues, while a real pilot will sense it much better, with his inner ears. Therefore a RL pilot may be in a much better position to counter-act the swaying/wobbling or simple live with it and fire in the right moments. I certainly recall that I can "feel" when a jetliner is side-slipping, but it's very hard for me to recognize side-slipping (e.g., untrimmed rudder) in the game only from visual clues on the screen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come on guys, of course real panes don't fly on rails...and there still is some wobble btw (certainly normal in bad weather which only appears close to the ground in the game). Still I've never seen film that shows the yaw caused by firing unsynched guns that we saw in the game. I doubt even having slightly slower guns on one wing would cause such an effect. Plus lots of folks don't set up their joysticks properly.

cmirko
01-31-2007, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:

1. We don't know the actual input fromt he pilot. Was some of the swaying induced by the pilots themselves, to 'hose' the target with bullets? Was the swaying caused by the turbulence/vortices caused by the target ahead (not modelled at all in IL-2)?

2. IMO the RL pilots had a better understanding how their plane will swing. An armchair pilot will only have the visual clues, while a real pilot will sense it much better, with his inner ears. Therefore a RL pilot may be in a much better position to counter-act the swaying/wobbling or simple live with it and fire in the right moments. I certainly recall that I can "feel" when a jetliner is side-slipping, but it's very hard for me to recognize side-slipping (e.g., untrimmed rudder) in the game only from visual clues on the screen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

totally agree on first thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, second thing is a real problem for me and imho for all other virtual pilots, i even thought about asking oleg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif to incorporate some kind of ball indicator as a reallity switch in dif. screen http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - but then again it would never pass the FR crowd test http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - imagine, FR + speedbar + ball indicator to know (without looking) instantly which rudder to step on during shooting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


thats why i get REALLY good hit percentages in p51d10 - the ball is right on the gunsite making things simple http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vipez-
01-31-2007, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
I love that the Mustangs, Lightning and Thunderbolt get away. From this footage it looks like it was much harder to shoot down US fighters in real life than in our little game.

190 Gun Camera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-q2TsttM10&NR)

First Mustang seemed to be NooB piloted, P38 appears to reef it and out turn the 190 at the last moment, P47 takes considerable damage and seemed to be on par with 190 turning, and the second Mustang appears to be turning the tables on the 190 in the end. Hope he got away.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should also consider the guncameras are about 1/4-frames per second of what happened in real life.. Try to raise the fps of the video clips to 20-25 fps, and it's easy to see how fast things can evolve in aircombat.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BillyTheKid_22
01-31-2007, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
True, when a 190 attempts to saddle up on my Oleg La5 I grin from ear to ear cuz the fun is just beginning...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I know it!!!!&lt;S&gt;

BillyTheKid_22
01-31-2007, 08:45 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/LavochkinLa-5.jpg

La-5 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LStarosta
01-31-2007, 08:54 AM
You know, Bandit, it would appear to me as if the German guns in this game are overmodelled.

FluffyDucks2
01-31-2007, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
I love that the Mustangs, Lightning and Thunderbolt get away. From this footage it looks like it was much harder to shoot down US fighters in real life than in our little game.

190 Gun Camera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-q2TsttM10&NR)

First Mustang seemed to be NooB piloted, P38 appears to reef it and out turn the 190 at the last moment, P47 takes considerable damage and seemed to be on par with 190 turning, and the second Mustang appears to be turning the tables on the 190 in the end. Hope he got away.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are talking bollox, because:

a. You have no idea what happened either before the guncam clip started or after it ended.

b. You have no idea how many rounds hit any particular aircraft, some hits may be visible, most won't be.

c. Guncam runs at 1/4 speed compared to real time, therefore everything happens in reality at 4times the speed it appears on the film clip.

d. You were not there, you do not know the providence of these clips, you have no proof of anything in fact, all the clips show is momentary glimpses of air combat for which no-one on this board(so far) can show ANY outcomes. They do come from LW archives for training pilots and I know they will be well documented, therefore leave your amateur wannabe speculations out of it please.

e. All your so-called conclusions are PURE SPECULATION based on a "want it to be so" take on historic events, you are neither qualified nor capable of presenting your conclusions as facts, they are pure fantasy based on your own warped view of historic facts.

f. BE SURE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RegRag1977
01-31-2007, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
You know, Bandit, it would appear to me as if the German guns in this game are overmodelled. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the stupid one to say that the bombers defensive cal .50 in reality weren't effective http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Regards!

BillyTheKid_22
01-31-2007, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
You know, Bandit, it would appear to me as if the German guns in this game are overmodelled. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the stupid one to say that the bombers defensive cal .50 in reality weren't effective http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Regards! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I am <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">LAUGH</span>!!!

BaronUnderpants
01-31-2007, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

I know we cant see the damage too well but man! it shows how tough the 4 engined heavies were. That 110 clip raking the defenceless B17 (I think the crew has bailed and he is using it for target practise, noone in any of the turrets.) He is hammering the B17 and they just seem to be exploding on the edge of the wing with very little visible damage. Maybe he is just using machine guns.

QUOTE]


The ball turret did get some heavy hits ( 2.30 and 2.40 into the film ) but if im not misstaken the fact that the mg`s are pointing strait down seem to sugest that the gunner allredy removed himselfe?


As for the wobble...try a QMB and slow down the speed 2X or even better 4X and see what happens.

Kurfurst__
01-31-2007, 04:12 PM
Excuse my slow understanding of the process that is occuring here, do I perceive right that the learned members of our faboulus community are currently excercising a scholary discussion devoted to research the validity of a premiere electronic World War II air combat simulation's code, that is responsible for portaying the ballistic and destructive properties of certain high-caliber barrell armament of German origin - which coincidentaly were also commonly used in the German Air Arm's fighter and other machines - in comparison to what is known about their real-life counterparts qualities, based on the feeble evidence provided by a few genuie World War II aerial gun camera footages uploaded onto a free internet broadcasting site?

Such is the progress of humanity - yesterday I'd thought it is an attempt destinied to failure, but tomorrow all this has become possible appearantly!

Still, gentlemen, do carry on with this valuable service to our community, and do not hesitate to share your learnings with the rest of us, who are, regrettably, are far too burdened with other commitments at the present to participate.

Choctaw111
01-31-2007, 04:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by koivis:
See how that last Bf 110 trying to shoot a poor DB-3, wobbles from side to side? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, the wobble, that the rest of us armchair fliers cannot take...

Reality vs Virtuality... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It looked to me as if the pilot was using his rudder to adjust his aim from side to side and was done smoothly, not abruptly and jerky from gun recoil. Just my observations.

Vike
01-31-2007, 04:34 PM
Starosta,

You may want to see some suffering american WWII aircrafts? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Here it is:

&gt;&gt; Luftwaffe in Action - Air War over Europe 1943-44 &lt;&lt; (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5F5E1u75Ss)

With:

-Me109Gs taking off with gunpods + DropTanks (beginning) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

-Me109 gunnery system activation (3'15") http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Heavy american bombers being intercepted harshly;
We also can recognize the "trident form" tracers made by a Me109 with gunpods (4'15") http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Results:
Heavy bombers shot down by German fighters/German Flak and captured american pilots (6'43") http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek

From me to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So thats how they made the clipped wing Spitfires! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

OMG,what a power! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

@+

BPO6_PANP
01-31-2007, 06:57 PM
OMFG http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
P 51 with wings still attached after attack
P 38 with wings and tail boom still attached after attack
P 47 with wings still attached after attack

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif one must wonder about olegland wonder weapons http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

LStarosta
01-31-2007, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:
Starosta,

You may want to see some suffering american WWII aircrafts? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Here it is:

&gt;&gt; Luftwaffe in Action - Air War over Europe 1943-44 &lt;&lt; (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5F5E1u75Ss)

With:

-Me109Gs taking off with gunpods + DropTanks (beginning) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

-Me109 gunnery system activation (3'15") http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Heavy american bombers being intercepted harshly;
We also can recognize the "trident form" tracers made by a Me109 with gunpods (4'15") http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Results:
Heavy bombers shot down by German fighters/German Flak and captured american pilots (6'43") http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek

From me to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So thats how they made the clipped wing Spitfires! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

OMG,what a power! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

@+ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey buddy. Your guys lost the war. Get over it.

Brain32
01-31-2007, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BPO6_PANP:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif one must wonder about olegland wonder weapons http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wonder weapons? I must have missed a patch or two..

Freelancer-1
01-31-2007, 07:25 PM
One of the recurring images that I see in German gun cam footage is how long and how relatively slowly they will stay behind and creep up on a bomber.

Contrary to what many of the 'experts' here have stated this was a tactic that was taught and expected to be used by the luftwaffe.

Here's the rub...

Try it in the game and see how long you last http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VW-IceFire
01-31-2007, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
One of the recurring images that I see in German gun cam footage is how long and how relatively slowly they will stay behind and creep up on a bomber.

Contrary to what many of the 'experts' here have stated this was a tactic that was taught and expected to be used by the luftwaffe.

Here's the rub...

Try it in the game and see how long you last http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most of the bombers I never saw returning any fire. Maybe its just invisible...but I wonder if they had been hit by flak before or something like that and the crew bailed?

Anyways the La-5 was by far the most impressive as it soaked up quite a few hits. The P-38 didn't get hit at all from what I could see. The first Mustang took one or two shots total and the P-47 seemed to be the one that got hit the most although the guy still managed to tighten his turn and get away.

We have no idea what happened to any of these planes after they left the gun camera.

BfHeFwMe
01-31-2007, 10:47 PM
How can anyone claim to see anything on these dismally small and blurry re-re-re-packaged vids?

You can't even see the fifties, so how are you going to see them firing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

FluffyDucks2
02-01-2007, 02:41 AM
Because they WANT to see weapons hit their targets, its a sort of mass hysteria/hypnosis, despite what their eyes are telling them(i.e. its impossible to tell what is hitting what...), their brain is so conditioned by BS that it is TELLING them it can see hits, this is what happens when people can no longer grasp the concept of OBJECTIVITY http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

joeap
02-01-2007, 02:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
One of the recurring images that I see in German gun cam footage is how long and how relatively slowly they will stay behind and creep up on a bomber.

Contrary to what many of the 'experts' here have stated this was a tactic that was taught and expected to be used by the luftwaffe.

Here's the rub...

Try it in the game and see how long you last http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the UMPTEENTH time, those films are sloooowed down, how hard is it to grasp that fact??? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

majnos64
02-01-2007, 03:39 AM
Oleg promises more real wind etc. in BoB so be patient you will be able to try it for yourself. RL plane can be controlled more precisely but weather cannot be handled so easily in ww2 planes.

A long time ago I started thread Bombers fall appart like rotten wood. Because of this video. Just look on a few more vids. If I consider statistics, planes were shot down after 1-2 Bullets from MK-108 BUT they didn't fall apart. Bombers usually lost their control cables BUT didn't fall apart. Planes easily catch fire as well but it is for longer discussion.

Xiolablu3
02-01-2007, 03:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
How can anyone claim to see anything on these dismally small and blurry re-re-re-packaged vids?

You can't even see the fifties, so how are you going to see them firing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

ALthough interesting to look at, not much info about damage can be found from these clips, you cannot even see what effect the fire is having in most of the clips.

Freelancer-1
02-01-2007, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
One of the recurring images that I see in German gun cam footage is how long and how relatively slowly they will stay behind and creep up on a bomber.

Contrary to what many of the 'experts' here have stated this was a tactic that was taught and expected to be used by the luftwaffe.

Here's the rub...

Try it in the game and see how long you last http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the UMPTEENTH time, those films are sloooowed down, how hard is it to grasp that fact??? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The point I was making is that interceptors were told to get on a bombers six and stay there until they were out of ammo or the plane went down. Film speed doesn't change that.

Goering's Orders: 1943

On 4 October 1943, the Eighth Air Force attacked Frankfurt-on-Main. The local party leader in Frankfurt protested very loudly about the fact that the "terror bombers" were not interecepted. This made Goering issue an order to all Reich defense units:

* there are no weather conditions unfavourable enough to prevent fighter units from taking off
<span class="ev_code_RED">* every fighter pilot who lands an undamaged machine without scoring a kill will be court martialed</span>
* if a fighter pilot is out of ammunition, or his guns are jammed, he is to ram the enemy bomber.

After that the heated orders were put to rest and were virtually forgotten. Then Major Hans-Georg von Kornatzki persuaded certain powers to let him form an experimental unit based on the army's Sturm units who got in close to enemy units and engaged in hand-to-hand combat. He envisioned a unit designed to break up the heavily armed 4-engined bombers of the Eighth Air Force. Members pledged themselves to the unit by a handshake from Kornatzki. The rules of engagement in the unit were as follows:

* to look for a fight with 4-engined bombers, and whenever possible to avoid engagement with a fighter
<span class="ev_code_RED"> * to not open fire on the bombers until at a position of 150 to 200 meters, when the four engines appeared to be in the target circle of the Revi gun sight</span>
* to ram the bomber if weapons failed or the gunfire was ineffective.

The new Staffel became operational in January 1944 under the command of Major Kornatzki. They were based alongside the First Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 1 (I./JG1) at Dortmund airfield.

rnzoli
02-01-2007, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The point I was making is that interceptors were told to get on a bombers six and stay there until they were out of ammo or the plane went down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But then you got it wrong, because I can't see anything like this in your quotes, except one of Goering's incompetent orders (out of many), and the setting up of a rare unit often associated with suicidal attacks on the bombers. Moreover, your info is actually available at this webpage: http://www.combatsim.com/htm/oct99/sturm1.htm, but it doesn't end where you end quoting, it continues and this is also from there:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Focke Wulf 190A-series was known to be a good bomber interceptor. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">The only problem was that closure time for stern attacks by Fw190s was very slow, leaving the Fw190s vulnerable to both bomber gunners</span> and escorting fighters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stern = behind = 6 o'clock. So that article you quoted says the opposite - it was not a good idea at all, to stay on bomber's six of clock, or approach with little extra speed, otherwise the gunners will get you, or your plane. That's pretty closely resembles the situation in game.

WWMaxGunz
02-01-2007, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
One of the recurring images that I see in German gun cam footage is how long and how relatively slowly they will stay behind and creep up on a bomber.

Contrary to what many of the 'experts' here have stated this was a tactic that was taught and expected to be used by the luftwaffe.

Here's the rub...

Try it in the game and see how long you last http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guncam film is run at highspeed. How long in real is multiplied by speed of the film.
Try playing the game at 1/4 speed and see how long you can play sitting duck to gunners.
Still not long, yes? But not so great a difference.

WWMaxGunz
02-01-2007, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Goering's Orders: 1943

On 4 October 1943, the Eighth Air Force attacked Frankfurt-on-Main. The local party leader in Frankfurt protested very loudly about the fact that the "terror bombers" were not interecepted. This made Goering issue an order to all Reich defense units:

* there are no weather conditions unfavourable enough to prevent fighter units from taking off
<span class="ev_code_RED">* every fighter pilot who lands an undamaged machine without scoring a kill will be court martialed</span>
* if a fighter pilot is out of ammunition, or his guns are jammed, he is to ram the enemy bomber.

After that the heated orders were put to rest and were virtually forgotten. Then Major Hans-Georg von Kornatzki persuaded certain powers to let him form an experimental unit based on the army's Sturm units who got in close to enemy units and engaged in hand-to-hand combat. He envisioned a unit designed to break up the heavily armed 4-engined bombers of the Eighth Air Force. Members pledged themselves to the unit by a handshake from Kornatzki. The rules of engagement in the unit were as follows:

* to look for a fight with 4-engined bombers, and whenever possible to avoid engagement with a fighter
<span class="ev_code_RED"> * to not open fire on the bombers until at a position of 150 to 200 meters, when the four engines appeared to be in the target circle of the Revi gun sight</span>
* to ram the bomber if weapons failed or the gunfire was ineffective.

The new Staffel became operational in January 1944 under the command of Major Kornatzki. They were based alongside the First Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 1 (I./JG1) at Dortmund airfield. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Goering was maybe the second most powerful German commander that fought for the Allied side!
Want to guess who became #1 before even mid-war?

IIJG69_Kartofe
02-01-2007, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Most of the bombers I never saw returning any fire. Maybe its just invisible...but I wonder if they had been hit by flak before or something like that and the crew bailed?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to H.Knoke the tactic BEFORE THE ESCORT FIGHTERS APPEARS was to open fire OUT OF RANGE of the defensive gunners, aiming to the rear gunner and after killing him, staying on the "viermot" 6' spraying the engines.

Trying to do that in this game is pure suicide.
DM of the gunners (all, blue & red) is totally crasy, IMO a robocop skin for the gunners is more closer to reality than an historical skin!

BPO6_PANP
02-03-2007, 10:12 AM
Rear gunners will always have a better range for there guns than a fighter comming up on there six
Simple
bomber 250 mph foward airspeed
fighter 300 mph foward airspeed
tail gunner has a 250 mph tail wind for his rounds
fighter will have a 300 mph head wind for his rounds
B 52 crews new this and used it to great effect to protect there six from migs

FluffyDucks2
02-03-2007, 01:32 PM
Don't they teach the word "THEIR" where you come from? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Similar sounding words:

THEY'RE (they are).

THERE

THEIR

Do NOT work when written in the wrong place!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

hobnail
02-03-2007, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BPO6_PANP:
Rear gunners will always have a better range for there guns than a fighter comming up on there six
Simple
bomber 250 mph foward airspeed
fighter 300 mph foward airspeed
tail gunner has a 250 mph tail wind for his rounds
fighter will have a 300 mph head wind for his rounds
B 52 crews new this and used it to great effect to protect there six from migs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's assuming that both bomber and interceptor have the same armament. A Bf-110 with 4 nose mounted MG151-20 will hit alot harder at 500-600 m than a .50 defensive HMG.

BTW the .50 armed BUFF succeeded in shooting down 2 MiG in it's entire combat history. 17 BUFFs were lost to enemy fire (AA, SAM and aircraft) in the same period.

FluffyDucks2
02-03-2007, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BPO6_PANP:
Rear gunners will always have a better range for there guns than a fighter comming up on there six
Simple
bomber 250 mph foward airspeed
fighter 300 mph foward airspeed
tail gunner has a 250 mph tail wind for his rounds
fighter will have a 300 mph head wind for his rounds
B 52 crews new this and used it to great effect to protect there six from migs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is how you should have typed it:

Rear gunners will always have a better range for THEIR guns than a fighter coming up on THEIR six
Simple
bomber 250 mph foward airspeed
fighter 300 mph foward airspeed
tail gunner has a 250 mph tail wind for his rounds
fighter will have a 300 mph head wind for his rounds
B 52 crews new this and used it to great effect to protect THEIR six from migs

HerrGraf
02-03-2007, 09:01 PM
If you dislike someone, then I am sure that you can find WW2 guncam footage of their planes being shot down somewhere on the internet. All sides had plenty of their aircraft shot down in combat. I imagine that one can even find guncam footage of ME262 being shot up!

No one knows the specifics of any of these particular battles; what happened before or after the camera came on, or went off. These types of films illuminate nothing to us except to vicariously whatch a brief moment of combat. There does not need to be any flaming or name calling by anyone on these boards about what is, or is not, happening.

KG66_Gog
02-03-2007, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I know we cant see the damage too well but man! it shows how tough the 4 engined heavies were. That 110 clip raking the defenceless B17 (I think the crew has bailed and he is using it for target practise, noone in any of the turrets.)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Luftwaffe pilot would waste all his ammo on a B-17 that's crew had bailed just to sharpen his skills when there is a whole sky full of Fortresses dropping bombs on his homeland!

I think you'll find that the reason why there is no return fire from the turrets and that they are just sitting there idly while the 110 chews them to pieces is because THE GUNNERS ARE DEAD! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

KG66_Gog
02-03-2007, 10:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
One of the recurring images that I see in German gun cam footage is how long and how relatively slowly they will stay behind and creep up on a bomber.

Contrary to what many of the 'experts' here have stated this was a tactic that was taught and expected to be used by the luftwaffe.

Here's the rub...

Try it in the game and see how long you last http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Set your convergance for cannon and MG out to 800m and attack some heavies from behind! I do this regularly when flying the 110 and it's the stuff alright! Takes some practice but you will get good hits well before the gunners are even thinking of shooting at you.

BSS_CUDA
02-04-2007, 05:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BPO6_PANP:
Rear gunners will always have a better range for there guns than a fighter comming up on there six
Simple
bomber 250 mph foward airspeed
fighter 300 mph foward airspeed
tail gunner has a 250 mph tail wind for his rounds
fighter will have a 300 mph head wind for his rounds
B 52 crews new this and used it to great effect to protect there six from migs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is how you should have typed it:

Rear gunners will always have a better range for THEIR guns than a fighter coming up on THEIR six
Simple
bomber 250 mph foward airspeed
fighter 300 mph foward airspeed
tail gunner has a 250 mph tail wind for his rounds
fighter will have a 300 mph head wind for his rounds
B 52 crews new this and used it to great effect to protect THEIR six from migs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
what are you the spelling Nazi?? you do realize that English is not the native language of many of the members of this board don't you? its bad enough you had to make one post about it, but then you chose to follow it up with a second just to prove your point http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif then to top it all off you didn't even correct the mis-spelling of the word FORWARD http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif good job

Odirroh
02-04-2007, 07:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
...
c. Guncam runs at 1/4 speed compared to real time, therefore everything happens in reality at 4times the speed it appears on the film clip.
... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are there any proofs of this.

I hardly can believe this. Therefore I will try to illustrate
my thoughts (using my bad English). I have to mention in advance
that my knowledge in physics are very weak.

If one takes the indicated distances, one is able to calculate
how much faster the fighter flies than the bomber.

Lets use attack number 12 (04:06) as an example:
Distance fighter to bomber = 350m
Fighter needs about 8 sec. to cover the distance.
That mean the fighter is about 150 km/h faster than the bomber.
If one assumes the B17 flies with a speed of 400 km/h the fighter
flies with around of 550 to 560 km/h. That seems plausible to me.

If we assume the video is slowed down by factor of 4, the fighter
would cover the distance of 350m within 2 seconds. That would mean
the fighter flies about 620 km/h faster than the bomber. If it is
assumed that the B17 flies with around 400 km/h, the fighter would
fly at a speed of more than 1000 km/h.

You will find similar results for some other attacks.

Can somebody confirm or disprove my assumptions?

If I am completely wrong, please dont tell it to my physics teacher

Odirroh

reisen52
02-04-2007, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KG66_Gog:No Luftwaffe pilot would waste all his ammo on a B-17 that's crew had bailed just to sharpen his skills when there is a whole sky full of Fortresses dropping bombs on his homeland1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course he would....credit for a shoot down with no risk to himself is a lot better, in his mind, then getting his butt shotoff going against defensive fire.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KG66_Gog:is because THE GUNNERS ARE DEAD! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or out of ammo, the supply was very limited - about 2 minutes trigger down time, so its safe for him to get close.