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sinasayan
05-12-2008, 11:24 AM
Hassan ibn Sabbā was born in the city of Qom in Persia in 1056 to a family of Ithna Ashariya Shīˤa. Early in his life, his family's fortunes took them to Rayy, about 120 kilometres (75 miles) from Iran's modern-day capital city of Tehran. It was in this center of religious matrices that Hassan developed a keen interest in metaphysical matters, and adhered to the Twelver Shi'ite code of instruction.

Rayy was a city that had seen a lot of radical thought since the 9th century. It had seen Hamdan Qarmat as one of its voices. It had also seen a lot of missionary work by various sects, each as impassioned as the next. The Ismā'īlī Mission or Daˤwa was a presence there. The Ismā'īlī mission worked on three layers: the lowest was the foot soldier, called the Fida'ai, then the Rafīk or "comrade", and finally the Daˤī or "missionary", who worked for the Daˤwa "Mission".

Young Hassan came in touch here with Amira Darrab, a Rafeek, who introduced him to the Ismā'īlī doctrine. With this doctrine, Hassan was unimpressed: he considered it to be merely an aberration of thought, not at all at par with the Sunnah. As he met Darrab, participating in many passionate debates that discussed the merits of Ismā'īl over Mūsā, Hassan's respect grew. Now, becoming impressed with the conviction of Darrab, Hassan decided to delve deeper into Ismā'īlī doctrines and beliefs. With his characteristic dedication and fervor, Hassan spent many months oblivious to all but his inquiry: reading till late in the night and caring little for sustenance and victuals, Hassan began to see merit in switching to Ismā'īlī eyes. Hassan converted and swore allegiance to the Fatimid caliph in Cairo. His studies did not end with his crossing over. He further studied under two other Daˤiyyīn, and as he proceeded on his path, he was looked upon with eyes of respect. For his young age, Hassan had done well.

Hassan's austere and devoted commitment to the Daˤwa brought him in audience with the chief Daˤī of the region: ˤAbd al-Malik ibn Attash. Attash, suitably impressed with the young seventeen year old Hassan, made him deputy Daˤī, and advised him to go to Cairo to further his studies.

Hassan did not forthwith go to Cairo. Here the life of Hassan gets mixed with legend and extremes. There is a popular legend associated with Hassan, Omar Khayym, and the prime minister of the Seljuk Turks, Nizam al-Mulk. There was a pact amongst the three: whoever was the favored of fortune would, in turn, help the other two. Nizam al-Mulk (the name translates to "Minister of State") rose to a position of prominence in the court of the Turks who ruled those areas. He got Omar Khayym appointed as court poet and mathematician. Hassan too was then granted an office in the court.

Working his way up the hierarchy, Hassan became the Intelligence Chief and began to aim for the post of Nizam al-Mulk. Getting a whiff of Hassan's ambition, Nizam al-Mulk resolved to shame him in front of all the court. An ingenious scheme was thought of: Hassan took upon himself of furnishing the records of the entire kingdom in just 40 days. All went smoothly until the final day when Hassan was to present the records. Somebody had tampered with his papers and he could not make his presentation. The king ("Malik Shah," which are the words for "King" in Arabic and Persian, respectively) was furious. He sentenced Hassan to death. It was on the plea of Omar Khayym that the sentence was terminated, and Hassan was instead banished from the kingdom.

There is a gap in this legend: Nizam al-Mulk was far senior in age to both Hassan and Omar, hence the three having been part of a pact is unlikely. Some historians have postulated that Hassan, following his conversion, was playing host to some members of the Fatimid caliphate, and this was leaked to the anti-Fatimid and anti-Shīˤa Nizam al-Mulk. This prompted his abandoning Rayy and heading to Cairo. He left the city in 1076.

Hassan took about 2 years to reach Cairo. Along the way he toured many other regions that did not fall in the general direction of Egypt. Isfahan was the first city that he visited. He was hosted by one of his Daˤiyyīn of youth, a man who had taught the youthful Hassan in Rayy. His name was Resi Abufasl, and he further instructed Hassan. From here he went to Azerbaijan, hundreds of miles to the north, and from there to Turkey. Here he attracted the ire of priests following a heated discussion, and Hassan was thrown out of the town he was in. He then turned south and traveled through Iraq, reached Damascus in Syria. He left for Egypt from Palestine. Records exist, some in the fragmentary remains of his autobiography, and from another biography written by Rashid al-Din Tabib in 1310, to date his arrival in Egypt at 30 August, 1078.

It is unclear how long he stayed in Egypt: about 3 years is the usually accepted amount of time. He continued his studies here, and became a full Daˤī. The concept that he stood for contained all at once Shi'ite and pre-Islamic Greek, Persian, and Babylonian philosophies. It was Ali and openly opposed to the Abassid Sunnis, whom they sought to overthrow; they also believed in community service.

Whilst he was in Cairo, studying and preaching, he upset the highly excitable Chief of the Army, Badr al-Jamalī. It is also said by later sources that the Ismaili Imam-Caliph al-Mustansir informed Hassan that his elder son Nizar would be the next Imam. Hassan was briefly imprisoned by Badr al-Jamali. The collapse of a minaret of the jail was taken to be an omen in the favor of Hassan and he was promptly released and deported. The ship that he was traveling on was wrecked. He was rescued and taken to Syria. Traveling via Aleppo and Baghdad, he terminated his journey at Isfahan in 1081.

Hassan's life now was totally devoted to the Daˤwa. There was not one place in Iran Hassan did not visit. To the north of Iran, and touching the south shore of the Caspian Sea, are the mountains of Alborz. These mountains were home to a people who had traditionally resisted all attempts at subjugation; this place was also of Shīˤa leaning. Within these mountains, in the region of Daylam, Hassan chose to pursue his Daˤī activities. Hassan became the Chief Daˤī of that area and sent his personally trained missionaries into the rest of the region. The news of this Ismā'īlī's activities reached the intolerant Nizam al-Mulk, who dispatched his soldiers with the orders for Hassan's capture. Hassan evaded them, and went deeper into the mountains.


[edit] Capture of Alamut

Hashshashin fortress of Alamut.His search for a base from where to guide his mission ended when he found the castle of Alamut, in the Rudbar area, in 1088. It was a fort that stood guard to a valley that was about fifty kilometers long and five kilometers wide. The fort had been built about the year 865; legend has it that it was built by a king who saw his eagle fly up to and perch upon a rock, of which the king, Wah Sudan ibn Marzuban, understood the importance. Likening the perching of the eagle to a lesson given by it, he called the fort Aluh Amut: the "Eagles Teaching".

Hassan's takeover of the fort was one of silent surrender in the face of defeated odds. To effect this takeover Hassan employed an ingenious strategy: it took the better part of two years to effect. First Hassan sent his Daˤiyyīn and Rafīks to win the villages in the valley over. Next, key people were converted and in 1090 Hassan took over the fort. It is said that Hassan offered 3000 gold dinars to the fort owner for the amount of land that would fit a buffalo's hide. The term having been agreed upon, Hassan cut the hide in to strips and joined them all over along the perimeter of the fort. The owner was defeated. (This story bears striking resemblance to Virgil's account of Dido's founding of Carthage.) Hassan gave him a draft on the name of a wealthy landlord and told him to take the money from him. Legend further has it that when the landlord saw the draft with Hassan's signature, he immediately paid the amount to the fort owner, astonishing him.

With Alamut as his, Hassan devoted himself so faithfully to study, that it is said that in all the years that he was there almost 35, he never left his quarters, except the two times when he went up to the roof. He was studying, translating, praying, fasting, and directing the activities of the Daˤwa: the propagation of the Nizarī doctrine was headquartered at Alamut. He knew the Qur'ān by heart, could quote extensively from the texts of most Muslim sects, and apart from philosophy, he was well versed in mathematics, astronomy and alchemy. Hassan was one who found solace in austerity and frugality. A pious life was one of prayer and devotion. Hassan was a charismatic revolutionary; it was said that by the sheer gravity of his conviction he could pierce the hardest and most orthodox of hearts and win them over to his side.

Given the pillars of devoted adherence to the path of the faith, it is unlikely that the usually accepted "Assassin" postulate is accurate. Hassan had his son executed for drinking wine and another person was banished from Alamut for playing the flute. The theories of Hassan being associated with Hashish are, at best, debatable. Furthermore there have emerged traces that there was a name given to Alamut by the people with Nizarī leanings: al-Assas "the foundation". It was the base for all operations that Hassan wished to effect. Members of al-Assas were known as al-Assasīn.

From this point on his community and its branches spread throughout Iran and Syria and came to be called Hashshashin or Assassins, an Islamic mystery cult.

Hassan was extremely strict and disciplined. The event of the Great Resurrection (al-qiyāmat al-kubrā) occurred under the later Ismaili Imam Hasan ala-dhikrihi as-salaam in 1164.

Not much is known about Hassan, but legends abound as to the tactics used to induct members into his quasi-religious political organization. A future assassin was subjected to rites very similar to those of other mystery cults in which the subject was made to believe that he was in imminent danger of death. But the twist of the assassins was that they drugged the person to simulate a "dying" to later have them awaken in a garden flowing with wine and served a sumptuous feast by virgins. The supplicant was then convinced he was in Heaven and that Sabbah was a representative of the divinity and that all of his orders should be followed, even to death. This legend derives from Marco Polo, who visited Alamut just after it fell to the Mongols in the thirteenth century.

Other accounts of the indoctrination attest that the future assassins were brought to Alamut at a young age and, while they matured, inhabited the aforementioned paradisaical gardens and were kept drugged with hashish; as in the previous version, Hassan occupied this garden as a divine emissary. At a certain point (when their initiation could be said to have begun) the drug was withdrawn from them, and they were removed from the gardens and flung into a dungeon. There they were informed that, if they wished to return to the paradise they had so recently enjoyed it would be at Sabbah's discretion, and that they must therefore follow his directions exactly, up to and including murder and self-sacrifice.

sinasayan
05-12-2008, 11:24 AM
Hassan ibn Sabbā was born in the city of Qom in Persia in 1056 to a family of Ithna Ashariya Shīˤa. Early in his life, his family's fortunes took them to Rayy, about 120 kilometres (75 miles) from Iran's modern-day capital city of Tehran. It was in this center of religious matrices that Hassan developed a keen interest in metaphysical matters, and adhered to the Twelver Shi'ite code of instruction.

Rayy was a city that had seen a lot of radical thought since the 9th century. It had seen Hamdan Qarmat as one of its voices. It had also seen a lot of missionary work by various sects, each as impassioned as the next. The Ismā'īlī Mission or Daˤwa was a presence there. The Ismā'īlī mission worked on three layers: the lowest was the foot soldier, called the Fida'ai, then the Rafīk or "comrade", and finally the Daˤī or "missionary", who worked for the Daˤwa "Mission".

Young Hassan came in touch here with Amira Darrab, a Rafeek, who introduced him to the Ismā'īlī doctrine. With this doctrine, Hassan was unimpressed: he considered it to be merely an aberration of thought, not at all at par with the Sunnah. As he met Darrab, participating in many passionate debates that discussed the merits of Ismā'īl over Mūsā, Hassan's respect grew. Now, becoming impressed with the conviction of Darrab, Hassan decided to delve deeper into Ismā'īlī doctrines and beliefs. With his characteristic dedication and fervor, Hassan spent many months oblivious to all but his inquiry: reading till late in the night and caring little for sustenance and victuals, Hassan began to see merit in switching to Ismā'īlī eyes. Hassan converted and swore allegiance to the Fatimid caliph in Cairo. His studies did not end with his crossing over. He further studied under two other Daˤiyyīn, and as he proceeded on his path, he was looked upon with eyes of respect. For his young age, Hassan had done well.

Hassan's austere and devoted commitment to the Daˤwa brought him in audience with the chief Daˤī of the region: ˤAbd al-Malik ibn Attash. Attash, suitably impressed with the young seventeen year old Hassan, made him deputy Daˤī, and advised him to go to Cairo to further his studies.

Hassan did not forthwith go to Cairo. Here the life of Hassan gets mixed with legend and extremes. There is a popular legend associated with Hassan, Omar Khayym, and the prime minister of the Seljuk Turks, Nizam al-Mulk. There was a pact amongst the three: whoever was the favored of fortune would, in turn, help the other two. Nizam al-Mulk (the name translates to "Minister of State") rose to a position of prominence in the court of the Turks who ruled those areas. He got Omar Khayym appointed as court poet and mathematician. Hassan too was then granted an office in the court.

Working his way up the hierarchy, Hassan became the Intelligence Chief and began to aim for the post of Nizam al-Mulk. Getting a whiff of Hassan's ambition, Nizam al-Mulk resolved to shame him in front of all the court. An ingenious scheme was thought of: Hassan took upon himself of furnishing the records of the entire kingdom in just 40 days. All went smoothly until the final day when Hassan was to present the records. Somebody had tampered with his papers and he could not make his presentation. The king ("Malik Shah," which are the words for "King" in Arabic and Persian, respectively) was furious. He sentenced Hassan to death. It was on the plea of Omar Khayym that the sentence was terminated, and Hassan was instead banished from the kingdom.

There is a gap in this legend: Nizam al-Mulk was far senior in age to both Hassan and Omar, hence the three having been part of a pact is unlikely. Some historians have postulated that Hassan, following his conversion, was playing host to some members of the Fatimid caliphate, and this was leaked to the anti-Fatimid and anti-Shīˤa Nizam al-Mulk. This prompted his abandoning Rayy and heading to Cairo. He left the city in 1076.

Hassan took about 2 years to reach Cairo. Along the way he toured many other regions that did not fall in the general direction of Egypt. Isfahan was the first city that he visited. He was hosted by one of his Daˤiyyīn of youth, a man who had taught the youthful Hassan in Rayy. His name was Resi Abufasl, and he further instructed Hassan. From here he went to Azerbaijan, hundreds of miles to the north, and from there to Turkey. Here he attracted the ire of priests following a heated discussion, and Hassan was thrown out of the town he was in. He then turned south and traveled through Iraq, reached Damascus in Syria. He left for Egypt from Palestine. Records exist, some in the fragmentary remains of his autobiography, and from another biography written by Rashid al-Din Tabib in 1310, to date his arrival in Egypt at 30 August, 1078.

It is unclear how long he stayed in Egypt: about 3 years is the usually accepted amount of time. He continued his studies here, and became a full Daˤī. The concept that he stood for contained all at once Shi'ite and pre-Islamic Greek, Persian, and Babylonian philosophies. It was Ali and openly opposed to the Abassid Sunnis, whom they sought to overthrow; they also believed in community service.

Whilst he was in Cairo, studying and preaching, he upset the highly excitable Chief of the Army, Badr al-Jamalī. It is also said by later sources that the Ismaili Imam-Caliph al-Mustansir informed Hassan that his elder son Nizar would be the next Imam. Hassan was briefly imprisoned by Badr al-Jamali. The collapse of a minaret of the jail was taken to be an omen in the favor of Hassan and he was promptly released and deported. The ship that he was traveling on was wrecked. He was rescued and taken to Syria. Traveling via Aleppo and Baghdad, he terminated his journey at Isfahan in 1081.

Hassan's life now was totally devoted to the Daˤwa. There was not one place in Iran Hassan did not visit. To the north of Iran, and touching the south shore of the Caspian Sea, are the mountains of Alborz. These mountains were home to a people who had traditionally resisted all attempts at subjugation; this place was also of Shīˤa leaning. Within these mountains, in the region of Daylam, Hassan chose to pursue his Daˤī activities. Hassan became the Chief Daˤī of that area and sent his personally trained missionaries into the rest of the region. The news of this Ismā'īlī's activities reached the intolerant Nizam al-Mulk, who dispatched his soldiers with the orders for Hassan's capture. Hassan evaded them, and went deeper into the mountains.


[edit] Capture of Alamut

Hashshashin fortress of Alamut.His search for a base from where to guide his mission ended when he found the castle of Alamut, in the Rudbar area, in 1088. It was a fort that stood guard to a valley that was about fifty kilometers long and five kilometers wide. The fort had been built about the year 865; legend has it that it was built by a king who saw his eagle fly up to and perch upon a rock, of which the king, Wah Sudan ibn Marzuban, understood the importance. Likening the perching of the eagle to a lesson given by it, he called the fort Aluh Amut: the "Eagles Teaching".

Hassan's takeover of the fort was one of silent surrender in the face of defeated odds. To effect this takeover Hassan employed an ingenious strategy: it took the better part of two years to effect. First Hassan sent his Daˤiyyīn and Rafīks to win the villages in the valley over. Next, key people were converted and in 1090 Hassan took over the fort. It is said that Hassan offered 3000 gold dinars to the fort owner for the amount of land that would fit a buffalo's hide. The term having been agreed upon, Hassan cut the hide in to strips and joined them all over along the perimeter of the fort. The owner was defeated. (This story bears striking resemblance to Virgil's account of Dido's founding of Carthage.) Hassan gave him a draft on the name of a wealthy landlord and told him to take the money from him. Legend further has it that when the landlord saw the draft with Hassan's signature, he immediately paid the amount to the fort owner, astonishing him.

With Alamut as his, Hassan devoted himself so faithfully to study, that it is said that in all the years that he was there almost 35, he never left his quarters, except the two times when he went up to the roof. He was studying, translating, praying, fasting, and directing the activities of the Daˤwa: the propagation of the Nizarī doctrine was headquartered at Alamut. He knew the Qur'ān by heart, could quote extensively from the texts of most Muslim sects, and apart from philosophy, he was well versed in mathematics, astronomy and alchemy. Hassan was one who found solace in austerity and frugality. A pious life was one of prayer and devotion. Hassan was a charismatic revolutionary; it was said that by the sheer gravity of his conviction he could pierce the hardest and most orthodox of hearts and win them over to his side.

Given the pillars of devoted adherence to the path of the faith, it is unlikely that the usually accepted "Assassin" postulate is accurate. Hassan had his son executed for drinking wine and another person was banished from Alamut for playing the flute. The theories of Hassan being associated with Hashish are, at best, debatable. Furthermore there have emerged traces that there was a name given to Alamut by the people with Nizarī leanings: al-Assas "the foundation". It was the base for all operations that Hassan wished to effect. Members of al-Assas were known as al-Assasīn.

From this point on his community and its branches spread throughout Iran and Syria and came to be called Hashshashin or Assassins, an Islamic mystery cult.

Hassan was extremely strict and disciplined. The event of the Great Resurrection (al-qiyāmat al-kubrā) occurred under the later Ismaili Imam Hasan ala-dhikrihi as-salaam in 1164.

Not much is known about Hassan, but legends abound as to the tactics used to induct members into his quasi-religious political organization. A future assassin was subjected to rites very similar to those of other mystery cults in which the subject was made to believe that he was in imminent danger of death. But the twist of the assassins was that they drugged the person to simulate a "dying" to later have them awaken in a garden flowing with wine and served a sumptuous feast by virgins. The supplicant was then convinced he was in Heaven and that Sabbah was a representative of the divinity and that all of his orders should be followed, even to death. This legend derives from Marco Polo, who visited Alamut just after it fell to the Mongols in the thirteenth century.

Other accounts of the indoctrination attest that the future assassins were brought to Alamut at a young age and, while they matured, inhabited the aforementioned paradisaical gardens and were kept drugged with hashish; as in the previous version, Hassan occupied this garden as a divine emissary. At a certain point (when their initiation could be said to have begun) the drug was withdrawn from them, and they were removed from the gardens and flung into a dungeon. There they were informed that, if they wished to return to the paradise they had so recently enjoyed it would be at Sabbah's discretion, and that they must therefore follow his directions exactly, up to and including murder and self-sacrifice.

Lhorkan
05-12-2008, 11:38 AM
tl;dr

HannahIsMyName
05-12-2008, 12:17 PM
did u get that off wikipedia, i was just reading that on it about 10 minutes ago

McMasterJ
05-12-2008, 12:17 PM
Congrats. You know how to use Wikipedia. Now use google and find me the definition of desultory.

altairego
05-12-2008, 12:26 PM
read Bernard Lewis too -- this guys' post is corroborated by him.

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 12:01 AM
Well, it does say at the beginning of the game that it's based on real historical characters

altairego
05-13-2008, 07:36 AM
while on topic of assassins: does anyone have detailed info on the Assassin hotcakes that they left by their victim? why cake?
why did n't they eat them on the way to the assassination? i bet they got hungry. or were they poisoned?

ScytheOfGrim
05-13-2008, 09:36 AM
Oooh... can't wait for Moqqy to find this... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

altairego
05-13-2008, 09:37 AM
Grim, tell him

Kaxen6
05-13-2008, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by altairego:
while on topic of assassins: does anyone have detailed info on the Assassin hotcakes that they left by their victim? why cake?
why did n't they eat them on the way to the assassination? i bet they got hungry. or were they poisoned? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

&gt;_&gt; I've been insane enough to attempt to find out if for some reason the recipe is floating online... but I only found recipes for cookies and curry... -_-' information altogether on assassin cake is hard to find. Though the cake that Sinan left for Saladin was poisoned...

HannahIsMyName
05-13-2008, 10:41 AM
I probably wouldn't fair very well in that time then. If i woke up and found a cake beside me i would probably eat it.

Kaxen6
05-13-2008, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HannahIsMyName:
I probably wouldn't fair very well in that time then. If i woke up and found a cake beside me i would probably eat it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even cake left behind by someone with the intention to shank you if you don't cease and desist whatever it is you are doing to make them pissed off?

HannahIsMyName
05-13-2008, 10:51 AM
hmmm i don't know, depends on what flavour cake it was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 11:12 AM
All cake is good. Cake is a good way to die

HannahIsMyName
05-13-2008, 11:17 AM
i agree with u bobfish, all cake is good, especially chocolate cake.

praise the chocolate cake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 11:20 AM
Maybe it wasn't really poisoned. Maybe the Hash Ashin made an...ahem, space cake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HannahIsMyName
05-13-2008, 11:23 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif maybe

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 11:24 AM
Or maybe it was both. So you'd hallucinate to death

moqqy
05-13-2008, 11:24 AM
Al mualim would be Sinan, not Hasan Sabbah.

The whole cake thing sounds like a myth. I don't remember if it has been proven it is a myth, but they tried to kill Saladin twice, and failed. If they could leave a poisoned cake next to him, how couldn't they kill him?

And altairego you mentioned "cakes that thye left by their victim", the legend only says they left it once, to Saladin

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 11:25 AM
But myhts are more fun when you take flights of fancy with the truth and turn them into something patently ridiculous

moqqy
05-13-2008, 11:29 AM
And after reading the original post a little bit, it even mentions the drugging of the assassins and the gardens http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

He didn't copy that from a very reliable source, it seems

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 11:30 AM
What makes you say that?

moqqy
05-13-2008, 11:37 AM
What? Are you crazy?

If you want a reliable source about the assassins, this is a good one.
http://www.accampbell.uklinux.net/assassins/assassins-html/sinan.html

Chapter 4 for the assassins also seen in AC. Those are the ones who they should be based off.

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 11:40 AM
Your correct answer should have been "wikipedia is written by ******bags" but that works too

moqqy
05-13-2008, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bobfish_Almight:
Your correct answer should have been "wikipedia is written by ******bags" but that works too </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not from Wikipedia.

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 11:46 AM
That's beside the point "wikipedia is written by ******bags" beats all other arguments

BlairCullen02
05-13-2008, 12:14 PM
It's funny. The topic creator hasn't said anything yet.

The cake is a lie...

Bobfish_Almight
05-13-2008, 12:17 PM
Everything is permitted

altairego
05-13-2008, 01:59 PM
nothing is true -- not even the scanty info on assassins then. what a shame http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 07:48 AM
Aww, Lady A *horse hugs* don't be afraid. This means you can do anything you want to Altar and never be prosecuted because his allegation is made false by his own admission http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

altairego
05-14-2008, 07:56 AM
what an interesting suggestion. ill punish him for sticking his robes into my laundry.

anyway, back to the topic. ismailis were highly political relying on their religious ideology -- some joined them not necessarily because they believed but because ismailis appeared to fight for the little guy.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 08:13 AM
Yeah, that's very true. Hence the first tenet of the Creed

altairego
05-14-2008, 08:20 AM
the 1st tenet is a real one: i just read that assassins were hunting big prey, no collateral damage was to occur.
as for the other two: assassinations were as public as possible and the brothers did not bother making an escape plan. brotherhood compromised...

sinasayan
05-14-2008, 08:25 AM
i posted it as a very well known thing.. because.. its obvious that al muallim is hasan sabbah..then i realized that you guys dont aware of eastern history and the entry i posted its quite long ( By the way its from wikipedia here is the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan-i_Sabbah)

let me give you short history of him.. hasan sabbah created the first planned terrorist organisation in the history which called "hashasin". hashas is a plant which marihuana made of. hasan sabbah prepared a magnificient garden in the fortress of alamut(http://img.blogcu.com/uploads/karnaval_Alamoot.jpg) filled it with beautiful women and fruits.. gave young men hashas(marihuana) and said them "every religion offers you heaven.. i am showing it to you" with the effect of anodyne they though that its real.. and to reach "the heaven" again. they became a soldier of hasan sabbah. the word of "assasin" came from "hashasin" hashasin means addicted to hashas..( you can look roger crowley's books about that) and another thing.. al muallim means " the teacher" in arabic language . the hashasins were calling hasan sabbah as al muallim also.. this is too obvious i tried to explain i know my english is not enough.. its best i can do. if you people want more information about him. Read the fortress of alamut..

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 08:25 AM
That's debatable. There's enough evidence to suggest that they either made as big a show of the assassination as possible, for the obvious psychological impact. Or that they kept it as quiet as possible and then had moles making wild aspersions about it being a really public event until people believed it

altairego
05-14-2008, 08:29 AM
they even contacted mongols against their enemy Khorazm before those guys decided ismailis were troublesome and crashed them.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 08:33 AM
The Mongols, Genghis Khan in particular, are the first peoples reported to use psychological warfare.

Sina : Some of us do know mate. Don't worry, your English is was fine. It's just that any historical "truths" will always be challenged by those who have heard other "truths"

altairego
05-14-2008, 08:36 AM
yea, when you get 10 000 horse archers charging and then winging away after a hail of arrows... that tends to make an impression. they broke my country too... just so europe could be safe...

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 08:40 AM
They didn't even need to be that overt. They'd send some of their own people in a few days or weeks before hand to spread rumours about what the barbaric hoards had done at the previous village. "They eat babies", "Did you hear that they cut out their own tongues in a fervour of loyalty?" things like that. So by the time Khans army was visible, they'd scarper sharpish

altairego
05-14-2008, 08:42 AM
without evidence hard to believe though -- unless some survivors fled or were let go by mongols spread it. and rumour takes root faster and firmer with a little evidence

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 08:44 AM
Agreed. But there's enough evidence to prove, as much as we can prove anything, that rumour was Khans first weapon. of course, we also know that he was more than willing to back it up with action. The dude had something like 150 kids as well

altairego
05-14-2008, 08:50 AM
he had a frigging empire from china to poland

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 08:51 AM
The entire known world at the time

altairego
05-14-2008, 08:53 AM
rumour made it easier for him: he never had to take the ismaili fortresses by force. they simply surrendered them...

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 08:55 AM
Exactly. Of course, the fact that he could quite easily have taken them by force anyway did make his job a lot easier

Kaxen6
05-14-2008, 09:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by altairego:
rumour made it easier for him: he never had to take the ismaili fortresses by force. they simply surrendered them... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One fortress surrendered on account of running out of clean clothes O_o

altairego
05-14-2008, 09:12 AM
good one kax.
they did nt have altair's bleach. btw, is he giving to me anytime soon?

maybe because he knew fighting in the mountains uphill could be hard on archers and horses. so why waste them?

EDIT: here is an interesting one: assassins paid hospitallers tribute... well, well, well...

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 09:52 AM
They did what they had to to survive

altairego
05-14-2008, 10:08 AM
not only that.
they realized that taking out one master meant that another would take his place -- al mualim called it a hydra. but if you killed a monarch who is a symbol of a centralised government.. then you definitely make a point and a mess.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 10:11 AM
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't, as they say

altairego
05-14-2008, 10:13 AM
same situation with al queda: kill one guy, another pops up. must've learned from the templars.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 10:14 AM
I think the Al'Qaeda thing has been heavily overstated personally

altairego
05-14-2008, 10:16 AM
dear bin laden is still out there -- that's my kinda man. stay hidden. they'll never find him.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 10:17 AM
But what has he really, actually done lately?

altairego
05-14-2008, 10:19 AM
he does not have to do anything. fear of him is already so big that all he has to do is just stay out of the way, really.
let the americans frighten themselves into a heartattack and his work'll be done for him by them.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 10:22 AM
Exactly the point I was making

altairego
05-14-2008, 10:27 AM
the one thing about ismailis: they did not set themselves up as assassins. rather, they used murder as a terrorist thing. this is what happens when politics and religion mix...

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 10:29 AM
Isn't religion just really a more severe form of politics anyway?

altairego
05-14-2008, 10:32 AM
you know what? that is very interesting: religion as politics. not only more severe: more dogmatic and moralistic... therefore, more sticky and messy.
just look at the inquisition: using torture as religiously sanctioned means for a political end of maintaining control of the population's thinking

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 10:35 AM
Even when religion has been intended to free the people, others have used it to enslave and control for their own needs. I think, once again that perhaps this requires a thread of it's own because we've gone drastically off topic

altairego
05-14-2008, 10:58 AM
as far as i can see, the assassins were not a mystery cult but ismailis.
the whole paid murder thing: they allied with third parties who figured to use them and then ditch them for their own ends. the ismailis had territories like principalities so they had to protect them -- that meant playing politics with others around them. third parties did not hire them so much as collaborated.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 11:00 AM
Politics is, unfortunately, just a part of the Human condition

altairego
05-14-2008, 11:04 AM
but why could nt they stay unified? that's the one question about the ismailis and other sects that i am still puzzling over.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 11:05 AM
Politics inevitably leads to difference of opinion and thus schism

altairego
05-14-2008, 11:15 AM
they split over how to pick teeth for gods sakes!
o the stupidity of human race!

i wonder how they managed to get people to understand them. all that messianic stuff... i mean does a peasant really care?

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 11:18 AM
Yeah. And this is why I hate everyone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But at least I'm not discriminating

moqqy
05-14-2008, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sinasayan:
i posted it as a very well known thing.. because.. its obvious that al muallim is hasan sabbah..then i realized that you guys dont aware of eastern history and the entry i posted its quite long ( By the way its from wikipedia here is the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan-i_Sabbah)

let me give you short history of him.. hasan sabbah created the first planned terrorist organisation in the history which called "hashasin". hashas is a plant which marihuana made of. hasan sabbah prepared a magnificient garden in the fortress of alamut(http://img.blogcu.com/uploads/karnaval_Alamoot.jpg) filled it with beautiful women and fruits.. gave young men hashas(marihuana) and said them "every religion offers you heaven.. i am showing it to you" with the effect of anodyne they though that its real.. and to reach "the heaven" again. they became a soldier of hasan sabbah. the word of "assasin" came from "hashasin" hashasin means addicted to hashas..( you can look roger crowley's books about that) and another thing.. al muallim means " the teacher" in arabic language . the hashasins were calling hasan sabbah as al muallim also.. this is too obvious i tried to explain i know my english is not enough.. its best i can do. if you people want more information about him. Read the fortress of alamut.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then I realized you don't know what you're talking about. Al mualim is not Hasan Sabbah. Why would he be?

1) Hasan Sabbah did not create "hashashin". That's a name given to them by crusaders, and only one muslim account actually calls them that. They were the Nizari ismaili.
2) There was no garden filled with beautiful women and fruits.
3) They didn't take drugs

Basically every single thing in that post is false. Sigh, it's okay to be misguided, but don't be ignorant. Don't claim that we don't understand if it is you who doesn't.
As I already said, Al mualim would be Sinan, not Hasan.

If you want, I can give you a good source for this online. If you are willing to learn, instead of being ignorant.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 01:50 PM
There's no need to be rude about it Mog

moqqy
05-14-2008, 01:59 PM
Well, I might have been a bit too harsh, depending on what he meant by

"then i realized that you guys dont aware of eastern history"

That's quite a claim to make, though ...

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 02:01 PM
As is claiming that your version is unassailably accurate. All this happened more than a millenia ago. No matter how certain you are that what you know is fact, it's been simply too long for us to really know. Especially about something with so many deliberately misleading adaptations as the Hash Ashin

BTOG46
05-14-2008, 02:02 PM
Especially as people have been posting stuff like this and quoting Wiki since long before the game was even released. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

moqqy
05-14-2008, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bobfish_Almight:
As is claiming that your version is unassailably accurate. All this happened more than a millenia ago. No matter how certain you are that what you know is fact, it's been simply too long for us to really know. Especially about something with so many deliberately misleading adaptations as the Hash Ashin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"My version" is supported by logic, the scholars of that time, the modern researchers, the books written by the Nizari themselves et cetera. Whereas "his version" is only supported by Marco Polo, who showed up 150 years after the assassins had been destroyed, and did no research what-so-ever.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 03:00 PM
I understand that. But it still doesn't make it fact

moqqy
05-14-2008, 03:28 PM
So? We only know very few things to be facts. We only know things for a fact such as that a triangle always has three corners.

So it is completely fruitless and useless to say "well, you don't know it for a FACT! Not 100%!"

All the evidence supports me in the Nizari argument, therefore we might aswell take it for a fact.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 03:31 PM
Again, I'm going to have to disagree with you. There's enough evidence to support what you've said as being fact. That's no the same thing. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong in any way. It's all about perspective. Sometimes all the facts in the world cannot dissuade someone from their beliefs, and I'm not just talking about religion, I mean about lots of things. For example, you said that the assassin's had been destroyed and I'd say there is more than enough evidence to refute that as fact. However, both versions are equally supported and likely, so which do you believe? That's where choice comes in ja?

moqqy
05-14-2008, 03:40 PM
Oh, but then it's about opinions. That's completely different.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 03:43 PM
Only in so far as which "facts" you choose to believe. And please, I don't want you to think I'm being deliberately contrary

moqqy
05-14-2008, 03:51 PM
This has nothing to do with what I said, though. The evidence is not split 50/50.

Secondly, if the evidence WOULD be split 50/50, then you would be ignorant/stupid to claim what you say is absolutely true.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 03:54 PM
I know. Really, I'm not saying you're wrong, or even that there's enough opposing fact to say that there's serious doubt about you being wrong. Which brings me back to my original argument. Wikipedia is written by morons

moqqy
05-14-2008, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bobfish_Almight:
Wikipedia is written by morons </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it certainly is hard to correct anything in Wikipedia ... I tried to correct one fault in Assassin's Creed Wikipedia page, which said that the Assassins' stronghold in the game is called Alamut. The admin deleted my edit three times, and let it stay only after I provided a video and a screenshot + Assassin's Creed wikipage (a wiki only about AC) stating that it was Masyaf.

Bobfish_Almight
05-14-2008, 04:08 PM
Alamut is about as amusing as the Illuminati, the greatest secret that never was but really existed