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View Full Version : OT - time off for good behaviour: Auschwitz staff relax.



RedToo
09-27-2007, 01:25 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7014750.stm

RedToo.

RedToo
09-27-2007, 01:25 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7014750.stm

RedToo.

carguy_
09-27-2007, 01:45 PM
Is the full set vieweble somewhere?

RedToo
09-27-2007, 02:36 PM
Go here (first link most complete):

http://www.ushmm.org/research/collections/highlights/au...itz/auschwitz_album/ (http://www.ushmm.org/research/collections/highlights/auschwitz/auschwitz_album/)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/arts/design/19photo.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/arts/20070919_ALBUM_FEATURE/index.html

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2007/09/20/2003379527

RedToo.

leitmotiv
09-27-2007, 02:52 PM
The novel, PICTURES AT AN EXHIBITION by D.M. Thomas is a superb story about the mentality of those who worked in the camps. The Nazis believed it was a "kindness" to gas the Jews, and necessary.

Waldo.Pepper
09-27-2007, 04:38 PM
Eyes: Medium
Hair: Medium
Weight: Medium
Height: Medium
Distinguishing features: None
Number of fingers: Ten
Intelligence: Medium
What did you expect?
Talons?
Oversize incisors?
Green saliva?
Madness?

leitmotiv
09-27-2007, 06:32 PM
I would suspect most of us were looking for the obvious:

(1) Signs of mental incapacity

(2) Signs of psychopathology

(3) Signs of viciousness

But, Ted Bundy taught us mass murderers can appear to be very charming---until they are caught and the craziness comes out.

Schwarz.13
09-27-2007, 07:06 PM
i saw some of these pictures last week in The Scotsman newspaper (****e paper, but we get it at work).

What struck me most about the ones with the women, accordian player and general frivolity was that these 'people' despite being involved in probably the most heinous and evil act of genocide in history, rather than seem gleeful in their participation seemed more like they were caught up in the unreality of the situation and that they were just trying to 'escape' from something they couldn't really comprehend was really happening and that they were complicit in .

Don't get me wrong i'm not excusing willing participants in the atrocities at Auschwitz and elsewhere, and i realize there were many genuinely evil and sadistic perpetrators but there is something about those particular photos that make me feel they were powerless, or didn't know how, to behave otherwise (in their 'free-time') lest they lose their 'sanity'.

Like i say, just what i felt when looking at the photos i mentioned...

HuninMunin
09-27-2007, 07:13 PM
D.M. Thomas should go out into the world and talk to someone for a change - following what you said about his conclusion.... I actualy canno't believe that his conclusion was even published in the first place.
May be the cultural difference though.

I wonder when folks will start to get that it doesn't need even the smallest psychological anomaly for a human beeing to do the outmost ethical evil...
I could practically show up at your front door tomorrow and kill you and all the inhabitants of the nearby houses and eat you all afterwards without for a single moment having any doubt about my actions - if only my brain is good enough in evasive actions and I'm therefor able to imply a kind of necessity to myself.
Most people can do that allready - it's just habit and / or active resentment towards ethical missbehaviour achived by philosphical abstraction.
But in the end - most people just don't have cause or oporturnity ( without punishment) to...

O well....now I won't be able to sleep anymore tonight...I'm off to kill something in a hundrednine.

leitmotiv
09-27-2007, 08:36 PM
Obviously, HM, you haven't made a study of the SS intelligentsia. The theorists of the SS disliked the idea of murdering in hot blood. They, in fact, preferred the idea of deporting the Jews. When this was impossible, they accepted the "necessity" for extermination. The novel brilliantly examines the mentality of the high echelon camp personnel.

zardozid
09-27-2007, 10:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Thu September 27 2007 17:32 Hide Post
I would suspect most of us were looking for the obvious:

(1) Signs of mental incapacity

(2) Signs of psychopathology

(3) Signs of viciousness

But, Ted Bundy taught us mass murderers can appear to be very charming---until they are caught and the craziness comes out.

Posts: 5217 | Registered: Fri May 21 2004 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I for one was looking for some type of recognizable emotion in regards to the monstrous evil they where involved with...

One would like to think that their deeds would cause them to loose sleep (or weight, or feel quilt, or something...)

Its what I didn't see that bothered me...


interesting pictures http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

Waldo.Pepper
09-27-2007, 11:28 PM
My earlier post is a poem (of sorts) by Leonard Cohen (about Adolf Eichmann). He was amazed by people expecting Eichmann to be larger than life.

K_Freddie
09-28-2007, 12:21 AM
you be amazed at how the human being conditions themselves to believe what is normal - call it selective memory retention.

This type selective memory is more prevalent today, as people make any excuse for attrocities. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Bewolf
09-28-2007, 12:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
you be amazed at how the human being conditions themselves to believe what is normal - call it selective memory retention.

This type selective memory is more prevalent today, as people make any excuse for attrocities. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh, they do?

carguy_
09-28-2007, 03:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
This type selective memory is more prevalent today, as people make any excuse for attrocities. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly.

Vike
09-28-2007, 03:45 AM
Thanks RedToo.Those documents are strongly amazing... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

@+

HuninMunin
09-28-2007, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Obviously, HM, you haven't made a study of the SS intelligentsia. The theorists of the SS disliked the idea of murdering in hot blood. They, in fact, preferred the idea of deporting the Jews. When this was impossible, they accepted the "necessity" for extermination. The novel brilliantly examines the mentality of the high echelon camp personnel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taking this to PM ( for the sake of law and order http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).
But first I'll get some sleep...

leitmotiv
09-28-2007, 09:54 PM
WTF? What is contentious about this? Give it a rest. I am in no mood for arguments.

SeaVee
09-29-2007, 02:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
you be amazed at how the human being conditions themselves to believe what is normal - call it selective memory retention.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is how most people who stay married manage to. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

anarchy52
09-29-2007, 03:59 AM
The sad truth is that those were quite normal people. Extraordinary circumstances and indoctrination can make people do just about anything. With children, it's even easier.

If you don't believe me, just google for "Third wave"

Bewolf
09-29-2007, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
The sad truth is that those were quite normal people. Extraordinary circumstances and indoctrination can make people do just about anything. With children, it's even easier.

If you don't believe me, just google for "Third wave" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two things required to make this possible anywhere on the world.

1. Dehumanize the group you target. make them the "others". Make them not appear as human individuals anymore, but part of a hostile group that wants to harm you and your groups way of life. Best, make them a threat in general.

2. lift any restrictions or consequences by harming, beating, killing members of these groups. Better even, reward it. If the government does this, average Joe sixpack will think its ok, as long as the target is not him. Cuz, yanno, the government knows it best.

Under these circusmstance ppl will think what they do is "good", and not about that it may be a crime. Cause, technically, within the boundaries of such a society, it's not. To this day most ppl follow "human rights" because its in the law. Not because its deeply imbedded in men's conciousness. Only very few ppl even think about "human rights" in depths. For most its just another concept amongst many in daily life that somehow sounds good, but nothing more.

There are countless examples of this in history, though the Nazis pushed it to a new level.

RegRag1977
09-29-2007, 04:32 AM
Good points Bewolf http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ,

Do you mean that the average "joe six pack" does not have a free will?

Because, wow, this would question democracy deeply...

Bewolf
09-29-2007, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Good points Bewolf http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ,

Do you mean that the average "joe six pack" does not have a free will?

Because, wow, this would question democracy deeply... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Free will" is an expremly flexible phrase. If you really want to base your descisions on free will, you first of all have to question "everything". Throw away what you have learend, what you have accepted as morals within your social group, think in depths about the pro and cos about what you consider the "norm". Most ppl won't do this. They are raised within their environment and never really question it.

Religion is the perfect example. Take christianity or Islam, for example. If you are raised within one of these, it is "very" unlikely you switch to the other? Why? Because you think your religion is the right on. Would a "free will" really be that dominant, you'd imagine that ppl would switch to other religions on a regular basis. That is not happening though. Cultures stay pretty homogenous in this regard, because in this case religion serves as some kind of unifiying band between individuals. If you had a free will, you'd just switch to the religion suiting you best. But with that you'd isolate yourself. If men had a "free will", they'd be able to objectivly judge about subjects of interest.

Check these boards. Notice something? Blue players whine about blue planes, red players whine about red planes. They "think" they are objective when it comes to judgement of planes, but in fact, they are not. Else everybody here would just care about "every" other plane. But that would put them into an inferiour position when it comes to actual online gaming. So you really have to ask yourself, how much of a "free" will is actually based on subconcious descisions and prejudices you make. Everybody has those, to a larger or lesser degree, towards nearly everything.

Another example. Why is killing bad? Why does everybody consider it bad? The answer appears obvious, because you take the life of an individual, destroy his dreams, his personality, his past and future, mabye make children lose their father.

Now you see an action hero on the screen, killing the baddies. When he does this, do you ask yourself these question when you see those killed? I hardly doubt it. Those are the evil doers. They possible can't have a good and fullfilled life. They can't love because obviously they are the baddies. Killing them is "right". You do not question it and cheer with the hero. Real life does not work that different . More primitive instincts just take over. All what holds of ppl to do terrible things is the law and social "morale" pressure and it's threat of harming "you" if you do not comply.

There was study about those Nazis comitting crimes. Many of them had families and friends and acted not much different then you and me. They did not consider it "bad" what they did. They indeed thought they just removed potential dangerous beeings, raised from childhood on to harm their families, friends and country. It certainly is complete bull****, but just see yourself what happend in the US since 9.11. Bush said "there is proof of WMDs in Iraq" and everybody believed him. Cuz, if you can't trust your own government, possible a man you elected yourself, who can you trust? It was an outright lie just to suit a personal agenda, but most people never questioned it. Muslims in the US as a group often had a rough time during this. Nobody asked for the individual. This is just the way it works in all kinda countries.

So, no, in all honesty, I do not think "free will" in the traditional sense is a reality.

Pirschjaeger
09-29-2007, 06:06 AM
I think it's interesting that the majority of those who committed the attrocities were actually volunteers. But, not volunteers in the truest form. There were benefits to be had by volunteering for the SS, especially regarding social status.

Being an SS officer was synonymous with high social status. They were exempt from the laws the general public were subject to. Working in a camp was a sort of retirement fund for postwar Germany.

We can say that they had a choice which is true; everyone has a choice. But the choices will be based on the expected results. It's natural and normal to want to climb the ranks, be they military or social. There are so many things to consider when asking why people do what they do, or did.The persons background and experiences have to be considered.

Bewolf's example of religion is a good one. We can argue that even if a person is born into a religion they have "free will" to change beliefs. But we all know that isn't true. We've all experienced peer pressure.

I've often tried to understand how a person can go from being a benefit to society one day to being involved in mass murder the next. I believe the answer lays somewhere in experiences and situations and just the right formula. I also believe that put in the same time and place, we'd probably all have done the same thing. But we are the lucky ones. We can sit back and judge from the safety of our situations and experiences.

Then there's another idea I have that these people were wannabe politicians. Just like politicians, they'd decide what is right and wrong based on the expected results,....or benefits.

In my opinion, it was personal greed that removed their "free will".

BTW, I'm quite proud that Opa killed an SS officer with his bare hands. Not because he was an SS officer, but because he was trying to use his rank and social status to steal food from my family. Herr Scheisskopf just chose the wrong person to steal from.

There was no "free will" on either side that day.

Fritz

RegRag1977
09-29-2007, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Good points Bewolf http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ,

Do you mean that the average "joe six pack" does not have a free will?

Because, wow, this would question democracy deeply... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Free will" is an expremly flexible phrase. If you really want to base your descisions on free will, you first of all have to question "everything". Throw away what you have learend, what you have accepted as morals within your social group, think in depths about the pro and cos about what you consider the "norm". Most ppl won't do this. They are raised within their environment and never really question it.

Religion is the perfect example. Take christianity or Islam, for example. If you are raised within one of these, it is "very" unlikely you switch to the other? Why? Because you think your religion is the right on. Would a "free will" really be that dominant, you'd imagine that ppl would switch to other religions on a regular basis. That is not happening though. Cultures stay pretty homogenous in this regard, because in this case religion serves as some kind of unifiying band between individuals. If you had a free will, you'd just switch to the religion suiting you best. But with that you'd isolate yourself. If men had a "free will", they'd be able to objectivly judge about subjects of interest.

Check these boards. Notice something? Blue players whine about blue planes, red players whine about red planes. They "think" they are objective when it comes to judgement of planes, but in fact, they are not. Else everybody here would just care about "every" other plane. But that would put them into an inferiour position when it comes to actual online gaming. So you really have to ask yourself, how much of a "free" will is actually based on subconcious descisions and prejudices you make. Everybody has those, to a larger or lesser degree, towards nearly everything.

Another example. Why is killing bad? Why does everybody consider it bad? The answer appears obvious, because you take the life of an individual, destroy his dreams, his personality, his past and future, mabye make children lose their father.

Now you see an action hero on the screen, killing the baddies. When he does this, do you ask yourself these question when you see those killed? I hardly doubt it. Those are the evil doers. They possible can't have a good and fullfilled life. They can't love because obviously they are the baddies. Killing them is "right". You do not question it and cheer with the hero. Real life does not work that different . More primitive instincts just take over. All what holds of ppl to do terrible things is the law and social "morale" pressure and it's threat of harming "you" if you do not comply.

There was study about those Nazis comitting crimes. Many of them had families and friends and acted not much different then you and me. They did not consider it "bad" what they did. They indeed thought they just removed potential dangerous beeings, raised from childhood on to harm their families, friends and country. It certainly is complete bull****, but just see yourself what happend in the US since 9.11. Bush said "there is proof of WMDs in Iraq" and everybody believed him. Cuz, if you can't trust your own government, possible a man you elected yourself, who can you trust? It was an outright lie just to suit a personal agenda, but most people never questioned it. Muslims in the US as a group often had a rough time during this. Nobody asked for the individual. This is just the way it works in all kinda countries.

So, no, in all honesty, I do not think "free will" in the traditional sense is a reality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . I appreciate the fact that there is still some people that criticize the world they live in.

It's amazing, i often ask myself, because i share your point of view on the question of will, how come that guys like you are still able to keep distant from the immediacy of ideology, of all the social habits, etc. How come that there is a delay between the society rules and the speech of the one who's doing critics?
It's the question of will and of freedom: is it your will (or awareness or whatever ) that enables you to do critics?

Now if people have not free will, (i prefer to say will, free will being for me a sort of repetition)that also ask the question of their responsibility. If there's a determination, then those Auschwitz officers may not be guilty: as some of they said at Nuremberg: "we had orders, we could not disobey orders, it was war, we were good soldiers, etc..."

In the case men are not free (and this may be true against our actual ideologies, i mean it's a valid hypothesis) then judging people is impossible.

It is possible that mankind is just the passive vector of some "programms".

In the end, it is possible that mankind has a too good vision of what it is, that it takes the results of what it does for the fruit of its will, when in fact it is determinated...

sorry for limited english

Bewolf
09-29-2007, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:


Thanks for answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . I appreciate the fact that there is still some people that criticize the world they live in.

It's amazing, i often ask myself, because i share your point of view on the question of will, how come that guys like you are still able to keep distant from the immediacy of ideology, of all the social habits, etc. How come that there is a delay between the society rules and the speech of the one who's doing critics?
It's the question of will and of freedom: is it your will (or awareness or whatever ) that enables you to do critics?

Now if people have not free will, (i prefer to say will, free will being for me a sort of repetition)that also ask the question of their responsibility. If there's a determination, then those Auschwitz officers may not be guilty: as some of they said at Nuremberg: "we had orders, we could not disobey orders, it was war, we were good soldiers, etc..."

In the case men are not free (and this may be true against our actual ideologies, i mean it's a valid hypothesis) then judging people is impossible.

It is possible that mankind is just the passive vector of some "programms".

In the end, it is possible that mankind has a too good vision of what it is, that it takes the results of what it does for the fruit of its will, when in fact it is determinated...

sorry for limited english </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You actually ask some very good questions there.
First of all, nobody is free of ideology, no matter how objective he tries to be. You, me, everybody on this board still acts and thinks within the boundaries of ones own cultural background. Which, btw, is not nessecarily is the wrost thing, as it makes social life possible in the first place. Men is a herd/pack animal, dependant on the ppl around him to survive.
Recognizing such boundaries and nessecarites does not automaticly put you into opposition to those limits of thought. Cuz if everybody followed his own ideologies, the results could be disastrous to a society. Only if a society as a whole drifts into regions like Germany did in the 30ies/40ies, or to a lesser degree in other countries, acting is required.

You know ask the question of why ppl are still accountable for actions like those in Ausschiwtz, despite recognizing they just acted within their framework. That indeed is hard to answer. But, think about what would have happend if those ppl indeed got away. What message would that have been? That killing as a means of reaching a goal is ok? That actually did happen countless times in history. Especially within societes that came out of it unscathed. Think of what the huns did during their conquests, the romans, and in later times the british empire or the americans expanding over the continent. Thousands died, those responsible never having to be accounted for. The result is pretty much ignorance. Nobody cares about the faceless masses. Many even deny it, or worse, deem it a nessecity for survival. As a result, it happens again and again. Hitler pretty much said "If we win, we will write history, and in a couple of years nobody will care". He was quite right in his assesment. Luckily Germany did not win. In the aftermath the Nuremberg trials was the first time in history a whole country and as such the society was deemed guilty of the attrocities it comitted. And when there is no way out for a socity as a whole, and a threat of punishment looming over its head, they won't repeat it. It works on this huge scale the same way it works for individuals, thus making a working "world" community possible in the first place. Just think of "countries" as people living together in a neighbourhood, just without a police maintaining order. It is debateable if those included in the war had the morale highground to judge, but there was no other instance to do so, and as such it did good nevertheless.

Now if humans are "prgrammed" and follow a pattern in the illusion of having a free will is enough subject matter for another thread alone, so I rather won't go into that right now. The answer is possible in the middle, though. Let's just say within reaching it's basic goals, these are surivial and reproduction, men has lots of different choices, and the ability to decide between these may be a definition of "free will".

HuninMunin
09-29-2007, 08:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
WTF? What is contentious about this? Give it a rest. I am in no mood for arguments. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you tell me that my opinion is "clearly" not based on "facts" but you don't want to argue about it?
WTF indeed.

leitmotiv
09-29-2007, 09:14 AM
Since I know you loathe the Nazis and their thinking, I don't know what the issue is. Everything I stated about the SS is a matter of historical record, not opinion. Perhaps this is a language matter. A very old friend of mine may be dying and I am just not in the mood for a mixer-upper.

HuninMunin
09-29-2007, 11:02 AM
Very sorry to hear so - my honest compassion.
I hope that he will be allright. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif