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R_Target
08-07-2010, 08:16 PM
Did all the Swordfish flown at Taranto use RAF "Night" for underside colors? Also, I'm having a devil of a time finding accurate info on markings for the Bismarck attack. Photos or accurate profiles would be especially helpful. Would've posted this in skinning forum, but I thought I might actually get a reply here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Thanks!

R_Target
08-07-2010, 08:16 PM
Did all the Swordfish flown at Taranto use RAF "Night" for underside colors? Also, I'm having a devil of a time finding accurate info on markings for the Bismarck attack. Photos or accurate profiles would be especially helpful. Would've posted this in skinning forum, but I thought I might actually get a reply here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Thanks!

dieg777
08-08-2010, 12:13 AM
The Swordfish at this period was camouflaged in a disruptive pattern of Dark Sea Grey and Slate Grey on the upper surfaces, and Sky grey lower surfaces. The lower wing was camouflaged in Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey for shadow effect.

I dont think they would be night for undersides- I believe this was used in north africa but not on carrier planes


http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter2/swordfish.htm


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/dieg777/bissword-1.jpg

http://www.cybermodeler.com/ai...fish_profile01.shtml (http://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/swordfish/swordfish_profile01.shtml)

woofiedog
08-08-2010, 01:00 AM
Not much info out on the web concerning the Swordfish. You might have already seen these... but here are a few links.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Bismarck_aircrew_rewarded.jpg

http://aircraft-list.com/db/Fairey_Swordfish/62/

http://anonymous-generaltopics...airey-swordfish.html (http://anonymous-generaltopics.blogspot.com/2008/05/fairey-swordfish.html)

http://aviaskins.com/downloads...aspx?id=1005&lang=en (http://aviaskins.com/downloadskin.aspx?id=1005&lang=en)

http://www.fleetairarmarchive....dfish_summaries.html (http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/aircraft/Preserved/Swordfish_summaries.html)

http://www.modelsforsale.com/listphotos/XD32015.jpg

http://www.kbismarck.com/arkroyal.html

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/564/9

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/564/9/1/46

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/564/9/2/42

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/564/9/3/3

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/564/9/3/22

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/op...03005/imageIndex/10/ (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/fleet-air-arm/fly-navy-100/historic-gallery/personnel/*/changeNav/00h00100200l003005/imageIndex/10/)

WTE_Galway
08-08-2010, 06:13 AM
This is actually a controversial topic.

There is a bit of discussion on the subject in the latter half of this thread from a modelling forum:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/...194.aspx?PageIndex=2 (http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/t/116194.aspx?PageIndex=2)

You'll note that the researchers Peter Freeman and Mike Starmer say that the Sky Grey lower surfaces were repainted matt black for the raid on Taranto. This meant that the serial number would have been painted over as they indicate in their rendition. So, it doesn't matter what Wray's serial number was for the model kit as it won't appear! Their rendition also suggests that the underside of the upper wing is also matt black painting over the large aircraft identifier 4A (one less decal for me to fabricate).

However, there is contradictory evidence - the drawing (Don Greer) on the cover of Fairey Swordfish in action by W.A. Harrison. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

R_Target
08-08-2010, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
This is actually a controversial topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ain't it always? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Research seems to take up almost as much time as skinning.

The contention that serials and unit markings weren't repainted is interesting though, as some profiles show at least the serial repainted in Sky over the Night.

Were unit makings commonly painted on the underside of the upper wing, or was this specific to certain units?

Placeholder markings for 824 Sq. Guesswork on the red numbers:

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8609/grab0000.jpg

Type A1 fuselage roundel placement and size seems to vary also, further compounding my confusion.

WTE_Galway
08-08-2010, 05:29 PM
The A1 roundel was a standard size though placement may vary.


The A1 roundel was replaced by a C1 eventually as pointed out in this scan of Page 22 of Squadron/Signal Productions "Swordfish in Action". This is a good book and worth tracking down.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/clannagh/sw.jpg


Note that repeating of the Aircraft ID under the top wing was common early war but I have no idea if the Taranto aircraft had that scheme:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/clannagh/sw2.jpg


EDIT:


ALSO ... some awesome Swordfish shots here - though the archiver seems to think they were some variant of the Gladiator :P

Worth a look although probably an earlier period then what you are trying to cover:

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=51781

R_Target
08-09-2010, 06:22 PM
I do have the S/S book. That's what actually sent me down this path as I just picked it up at an airshow last month.

From the tone of the modeling forum linked above, serials and anything other than tail codes seem to have been painted over for Taranto. AT least on the ones with "Night" undersides. That's probably what I'll go with.

Another thing I missed that appears to be frequently misrepresented is the use of "Sky Grey" for undersides instead of "Sky" on the earlier models.

I wonder if these powder-blue numbers bear any relation to reality?

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/3465/946r.jpg

I'd like to do one plane each for Bismarck and Taranto and just clone them with different codes to make up a flight, but if this keeps up, I'll probably just do single examples of the ones I can find the best evidence for.

WTE_Galway
08-09-2010, 07:04 PM
Possibly the colored ID marks are a means of identifying the ship the plane came from. Prewar the carrier was identified by a wide colored band across the fuselage, the colored ID may have been a new alternative. That is just a guess though.

have you searched the FAA archives online ?

http://www.fleetairarmarchive....rcraft/Swordfish.htm (http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/aircraft/Swordfish.htm)

R_Target
08-11-2010, 08:43 AM
Another question...what exactly do the codes denote?

WTE_Galway
08-11-2010, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
Another question...what exactly do the codes denote? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am told a good resource is Air Britain "Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm".


OK .. unlike RAF codes the ID's are related to the ship. if a squadron changed ships its code would change. There are also actual three ID codes just to confuse things http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Its just the first (ship) code was often left off if there was only one carrier in the fleet.

1. The first is Ship:

HMS Ark Royal (A) HMS Glorious (G), HMS Furious (U), HMS Hermes (H), HMS Eagle (F but later PHI) HMS Illustrious (L) etc etc


2. This is followed by a number identifying the squadrons role on the ship and the seniority of the squadron carrying out that role. In the early war period:

torpedo/spotter/reconnaissance 1-5,
fighters 6-7,

However the low numbers like 1 and 2 tended to go to spotter-recon aircraft, which is why Swordfish units tend to carry 4 and 5.



3. The final letter is that of the individual aircraft in the squadron.


For example in this skin I did a few years back of a prewar Sea Gladiator we see it is from HMS Glorious (G) is from the most senior fighter squadron (6) and is the first aircraft in the squadron (A).


http://combat-asylum.com/uploads/downloads/images/2008/10/4472_charity2.jpg


The squadron code for 824 on board HMS Eagle was therefore F5 (or possibly PHI-5) followed by an aircraft ID letter. The full code if used would have been F5A, F5B ... F5G, F5H, F5K etc etc.

However in the photos from the period the HMS Eagle ship code has been left off leaving us with 5F, 5G, 5H etc etc

R_Target
08-15-2010, 12:57 PM
Thanks for all the help, Galway! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I put up a pack of eight, details here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=45410763&m=7941074778&r=7941074778#7941074778).

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1928/grab0011.jpg