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leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 08:18 AM
Mount up WWI types!

https://store.thirdwire.com/store.htm

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 08:18 AM
Mount up WWI types!

https://store.thirdwire.com/store.htm

Troll2k
11-27-2006, 08:45 AM
Is it multiplayer?

signalnorth
11-27-2006, 08:52 AM
http://www.first-eagles.com/features.shtml

their site itself

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 08:53 AM
Apparently, no multi-player---see Features.

http://www.first-eagles.com/main.shtml

Downloading!

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 10:41 AM
Here is the deal. On the definite plus side, the flight models feel right. For example, turning against prop torque is a problem. The models are not constantly creaking as they do in OVER FLANDERS FIELDS (perhaps an error). You can kill yourself by overstressing the aircraft. No mixture control. The SE5A cannot fire its Lewis Gun separately from the Vickers. Disappointingly, the Lewis cannot have its position changed on its rail. Lewis must be reloaded, and it is prone to jamming. You can unjam it by a keyboard click. SPAD XIII is the best maneuverer of the four aircraft provided (Fokker D.VII, Fokker D.VIIF, SPAD XIII, and SE5A), which surprised me, but, maybe, I shouldn't have been. Basic tactical unit is four-plane, which is, of course, wrong---should be three. So far, very enjoyable. Those who fretted it would have the inferior prop FM in the Third Wire jet sims need not have worried---the controls are suitably hard to use when you shove sensitivity all the way to the left, and the FMs feel like WWI, i.e., dodgy compared to what we are accustomed. Flying these planes will not be the cup of tea of late-WWII buffos. You have 5 DOF so you can really use that Aldis sight on the SE, and you can really get situational awareness. Collisions are a real hazard because of close quarters fighting. Cockpits look great, markings on aircraft look wonderful, and accurate. Rockers on the Fokker's engine are animated! So far I give it a thumbs up. I rate this baby an early Christmas present!

Trinity_Jay
11-27-2006, 10:56 AM
Thanks for the heads-up, Leitmotiv.

What's the career mode like? Does it surpass Red Baron 2?

Cheers,

Jay

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 11:07 AM
I came to RB2 late, Trinity_Jay, and I could never get it to play right on my computer, so I am afraid I can't help with comparisons. It has the usual Third Wire campaign mode and single missions. People are already modding away! Gotha and Salmson already available!!!!

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=11

Platypus_1.JaVA
11-27-2006, 11:07 AM
I get the feeling that this game is based on the red-barron engine.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

MB_Avro_UK
11-27-2006, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Here is the deal. On the definite plus side, the flight models feel right. For example, turning against prop torque is a problem. The models are not constantly creaking as they do in OVER FLANDERS FIELDS (perhaps an error). You can kill yourself by overstressing the aircraft. No mixture control. The SE5A cannot fire its Lewis Gun separately from the Vickers. Disappointingly, the Lewis cannot have its position changed on its rail. Lewis must be reloaded, and it is prone to jamming. You can unjam it by a keyboard click. SPAD XIII is the best maneuverer of the four aircraft provided (Fokker D.VII, Fokker D.VIIF [they do not tell which manufacturer made the first one], SPAD XIII, and SE5A), which surprised me, but, maybe, I shouldn't have been. Basic tactical unit is four-plane, which is, of course, wrong---should be three. So far, very enjoyable. Those who fretted it would have the inferior prop FM in the Third Wire jet sims need not have worried---the controls are suitably hard to use when you shove sensitivity all the way to the left, and the FMs feel like WWI, i.e., dodgy compared to what we are accustomed. Flying these planes will not be the cup of tea of late-WWII buffos. You have 5 DOF so you can really use that Aldis sight on the SE, and you can really get situational awareness. Collisions are a real hazard because of close quarters fighting. Cockpits look great, markings on aircraft look wonderful, and accurate. Rockers on the Fokker's engine are animated! So far I give it a thumbs up. I rate this baby an early Christmas present! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the objective review leitmotiv http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

I'll d/l shortly. Any probs with the d/l process??

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

JG53Frankyboy
11-27-2006, 12:03 PM
im a little bit disapointed aboutthe very small amount of AI planes............. only 3.

im missing the "typical" targets for an offline campaign.
1918 planes like DH.9, Br14, a german C plane, RE8 - you know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i hope the community will fill this gap.

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 12:14 PM
Download was the veritable piece of cake, MB_Avro. The printed fabric on the Fokker is really nicely done. Was able to walk my Maxims right across a hapless SE, and the effects were, well, amazing and appalling. The conflagration appeared very realistic. If you do not fancy cooking your AI foes---don't buy this, believe me. Environmental effects very good, terrain is fine. I really enjoy it. I didn't realize the AI was so limited, Frankyboy. I think I'll download that Gotha for a real brawl. The Salmsons will give the Germans work. Hope they fix that silly four-aircraft error. Flak seems more WWII in efficiency---I watched an aircraft being tracked by gun bursts with a frequency and accuracy that didn't look quite right. The effects are restrained, and, to my eye, very very realistic. Fighting under overcast reminded me of a low approach to Gatwick on a winter day. Tracer tiny yellow lights. Hits not dramatic unless you flame the target. Nice observation balloons. Flak puffs very realistic.

signalnorth
11-27-2006, 12:21 PM
So are there extra downloads available already?

signalnorth
11-27-2006, 12:25 PM
One poster makes some scathing remarks over at The Aerodrome

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28336

MB_Avro_UK
11-27-2006, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Download was the veritable piece of cake, MB_Avro. The printed fabric on the Fokker is really nicely done. Was able to walk my Maxims right across a hapless SE, and the effects were, well, amazing and appalling. The conflagration appeared very realistic. If you do not fancy cooking your AI foes---don't buy this, believe me. Environmental effects very good, terrain is fine. I really enjoy it. I didn't realize the AI was so limited, Frankyboy. I think I'll download that Gotha for a real brawl. The Salmsons will give the Germans work. Hope they fix that silly four-aircraft error. Flak seems more WWII in efficiency---I watched an aircraft being tracked by gun bursts with a frequency and accuracy that didn't look quite right. The effects are restrained, and, to my eye, very very realistic. Fighting under overcast reminded me of a low approach to Gatwick on a winter day. Tracer tiny yellow lights. Hits not dramatic unless you flame the target. Nice observation balloons. Flak puffs very realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks leitmotiv http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I'll download now.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Blutarski2004
11-27-2006, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
SPAD XIII is the best maneuverer of the four aircraft provided (Fokker D.VII, Fokker D.VIIF [they do not tell which manufacturer made the first one], SPAD XIII, and SE5A), which surprised me, but, maybe, I shouldn't have been. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I'm surprised that the SPAD XIII should be the most maneuverable a/c. The SPAD and the SE5a both had powerful engines, but they had relatively high wing loading and typical thin Allied airfoils - fast, but limited in AoA and cranky in the stall. The forte of both was speed, dive and zoom.

The Fokker D.VII by comparison featured the thick section Goettingen airfoil (like the Dr.I) - exceptional L/D ratio, capable of tolerating very high AoA's, and comparatively docile in the stall. That's why you hear those "hanging on the prop" stories connected with the D.VII. The problem with the D.VII was the low power of its base engine - a 160 hp Mercedes in-line 6, compared to 185-200 hp Hispano's and Wolseley's in the SE5a's and SPAD's.

Measures were taken to improve the engine power of the D.VII. Mercedes produced a more powerful version of their 6, for example. But the big improvement was the installation of the BMW "high-altitude motor", which completely transformed the performance of the D.VII, especially at altitude. The BMW high-altitude motor was nominally rated at 185 hp, but its true advantage over conventional a/c engines was its ability to retain a much higher percentage of its power output at high altitudes. It was not as fast as either the SE5a or the SPAD XIII, but it had a terrific climb rate advantage at high altitude.

The D.VII-F = the BMW engined D.VII. It appeared at the front in May 1918 (IIRC) and immediately created a sensation. However, only a few hundred actually saw service at the front.

I may have to go hunt up all my WW1 a/c statistics now.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 12:33 PM
Hope you like it MB_Avro! I've always understood the SPAD XIII was a fast heavyweight with the structural integrity for high-speed dives. That's what the OVER FLANDERS FIELDS XIII is like. Somewhat like a wood and fabric P-47. I haven't played the sim enough to form a conclusion, but it did seem rather more maneuverable than the other two. Could just be that I had not gotten the measure of the SE and Fokker. The flight model seems a lot more complex than the CFS3-derived FM in OFF.

JG53Frankyboy
11-27-2006, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Hope you like it MB_Avro! I've always understood the SPAD XIII was a fast heavyweight with the structural integrity for high-speed dives. That's what the OVER FLANDERS FIELDS XIII is like. Somewhat like a wood and fabric P-47. I haven't played the sim enough to form a conclusion, but it did seem rather more maneuverable than the other two. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i actually never rated any of the Thirdwirde flightsim series very high in FM, DM and such stuff...........
"just" some neat thing to fly around with some nice looking planes....... sorry, to say that , my personal opinion.

and sure, because of its very open structure, VERY 3.party friendly.

seeing how easy it is to make the AI planes flyable - sure, only with other cockpits. and this is weird as a longtime IL2 player http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
i want only planes to fly if they have thier own cockpit.............

anyway, it will be a nice game to play around with . staying on track to not miss important 3.party stuff (that was not easy in the SF:P1 series http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) - till KotS will be available. i realy think KotS will be in a totaly other universe, compared to FE !

MB_Avro_UK
11-27-2006, 12:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Hope you like it MB_Avro! I've always understood the SPAD XIII was a fast heavyweight with the structural integrity for high-speed dives. That's what the OVER FLANDERS FIELDS XIII is like. Somewhat like a wood and fabric P-47. I haven't played the sim enough to form a conclusion, but it did seem rather more maneuverable than the other two. Could just be that I had not gotten the measure of the SE and Fokker. The flight model seems a lot more complex than the CFS3-derived FM in OFF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm d/l as I write. Transfer rate is only 25kb/sec for a 113MB file http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Time for a couple of beers I think... Anyway, 'tis quicker than the post!

And you were right of course...the d/l process is 'a piece of cake'.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 01:02 PM
I was able to get 120 on my Earthlink DSL---no funny business about going online to register, no bureaucracy at all. Load and play! Back to that SPAD!!!!

I_KG100_Prien
11-27-2006, 01:19 PM
Downloading now. Been awhile since I've flown a WW1 era sim

Screaming 515k/sec download. 3 minutes.. Love my cable.

Wilburnator
11-27-2006, 01:28 PM
I'm getting 700 kb/sec here. Rat-a-tat-tat in a couple of minutes. I'll report back. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b39/wilburnator/353rd-Animated-sig.gif

My FB movie on youtube (http://youtube.com/watch?v=wpdn6Y65WOU)

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 01:59 PM
AGH!

Trinity_Jay
11-27-2006, 02:03 PM
Hey Guys!

Do let me know as to what the solo campaign is like: is it involving, emmersive and atmospheric? If it's stale like IL2, I *may* give it a miss and wait for Knights of the Sky.

See you in the skies!

Jay

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 02:19 PM
As for that review, I think, possibly, the reviewer suffers from the misconception WWI aircraft should handle like Pitts Specials. I noticed there was something odd about the SE5A's control response, but couldn't figure it out---was obvious, as he found. I thought "blipping" a rotary was done with the throttle. I've never seen anything about actually shutting off your motor, but, maybe, he was right.

leitmotiv
11-27-2006, 03:05 PM
Will do, Trinity_Jay!

I_KG100_Prien
11-27-2006, 03:59 PM
I will say that it does take a few minutes to get the hang of how the old birds handle. Definatly not a Spitfire/FW190. Got a little bit of a scare when I put the DVII into a 90 degree bank and the darn thing started falling like a rock. The sight on the SE5 takes a little adjustment, especially when using the one for the Lewis.

My first flight I got hit by Flak about 5 seconds after the game loaded into the flight. BANG there goes my top wing and a spinning towards the earth I went.

Though, it seems to me with all the settings on "Normal" the game is a little bit on the easy side.. After just a few sorties in the Single Mission menu, and one Campaign sortie I'm sitting at 39 A-A kills with a K/D ratio of 39-1. (The one death coming from the Flak hit) Later on I'm going to ramp up the difficulty settings and see if it becomes a little bit less of a Turkey Shoot.

I also was kind of dissapointed at the result of my overbanking the DVII... I fell from the sky and hit the ground.. however my plane just bounced off the deck and went right back to flying.. Again it could be the difficulty settings, but one would think that with all set to "Normal" that ground collions would be detected. Once again, I hope going up to "Hard" will change this.

I'm not going to give it a Top Sim reward, however I think if you can set aside it's shortcomings and look at it from a "For Fun" point of view.. Then it's a good little purchase. Perhaps it will get better over time when third parties begin to add more content it'll improve.

It does have multiplayer capability, however your only choices are LAN or TCP/IP

The download and installation is silky smooth too.

MB_Avro_UK
11-27-2006, 04:28 PM
hi all,

Finally downloaded.

My impression is that we or I have been used to the il2 engine for so long that nothing else compares favourably.

Anyone remember Flying Corps Gold from about 1999? First Eagles appears to be a better version but without the 'atmosphere' of FCG.

I applied 'hard' settings but did not notice any major difference.From what I could make out, I had to use the mouse to look around.

This is the best WW1 sim available IMHO but some yards behind il2.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

EURO_Snoopy
11-27-2006, 04:42 PM
Nice review leitmotiv, I've never flown a WWI sim before so your write up has given me an idea of what to expect.

Please check your pm's<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://airwarfare.com/AWX/Webpage%20Graphics/AWsig.jpg (http://www.airwarfare.com)

AW Forums (http://www.airwarfare.com/phpBB2/index.php) - Mission4Today (http://mission4today.com/index.php) - FAQ (http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=FAQ_Introduction) - Installation Guide (http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=9.1._Installation) - Patching (http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Patching) - Posting Etiquette (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php)

Blutarski2004
11-27-2006, 04:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:

Anyone remember Flying Corps Gold from about 1999? First Eagles appears to be a better version but without the 'atmosphere' of FCG.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>



..... I remember Flying Corps very well. It was a great sim for the time - a lot "grittier" and evil atmosphere than RB.

Really miss the Rowan people. They did great sims.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI

I_KG100_Prien
11-27-2006, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
hi all,

Finally downloaded.

My impression is that we or I have been used to the il2 engine for so long that nothing else compares favourably.

Anyone remember Flying Corps Gold from about 1999? First Eagles appears to be a better version but without the 'atmosphere' of FCG.

I applied 'hard' settings but did not notice any major difference.From what I could make out, I had to use the mouse to look around.

This is the best WW1 sim available IMHO but some yards behind il2.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Avro, go to the options and control settings, you see a selection for View Controls(I think it is).. It'll have mouse selected, however you can change it to use your hat switch or whatever input you normally use to look about the cockpit.

Feathered_IV
11-27-2006, 05:36 PM
The ability to use the mouse is encouraging (tir-less still). It was the main thing that turned me off Over Flanders Fields. Looking around with the hat was like swimming through treacle.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

***********************************************

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/Feathered-sigpic.jpg

"Intelligent, normally observant and answered all questions freely. He was arrogant and proud to be a pilot. Fellow prisoners in hospital consider him mentally unstable."

CaptAce
11-27-2006, 06:04 PM
Anyone know yet how good the enemy/friendy AI is? Also, are the missions fun and diverse? Is it like red baron where you could control aspects of your squadren?

x6BL_Brando
11-27-2006, 06:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SE5A's control response, but couldn't figure it out---was obvious, as he found. I thought "blipping" a rotary was done with the throttle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offence, but I don't think the Se5a was a rotary. An in-line four surely?

Rotary-engines like this Clerget, used on the Camel
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/brando6BL/Clerget-small.jpg

were blipped by shorting the current from the magneto to earth, thus stopping the spark(s) from reaching the cylinders, and thereby stopping the engine from firing. 'Un-blipping' meant that sparks were restored and the engine re-started - with a bit of luck & care.

It's important to recognise that the rotary (as opposed to radial) engines spun on an axle mounted to the front of the aircraft. Apart from the mass of spinning metal, and all that entails, it 's important to grasp that the fuel was drawn into the cylinders whenever the engine was in rotation, spark or no. Effectively this meant the pilot had to adjust or cut off the fuel flow to prevent a cloud of gas building up in and around the cowling. There are many reports of aircraft blowing up in this way.

The early aviator had a lot of engine management to do. He had controls for enriching or starving the fuel-air mix and for altering the ignition timing. Usually un-graduated levers, they required skill in setting, to achieve good rates of climb & smooth performance at various altitudes and weather conditions, as well as avoiding harm to the engine. It's all a long way from automatic superchargers and prop-pitch controls!

That's just engine controls. If you include manually cocked guns (and the frequent necessity for clearing jams) and all the intricacies of cable-operated surfaces, firing flares, trimming and so on - those old cockpits were hives of industry. No wonder most of the pilots were also mechanics!

It's funny that one of the great virtues of the Se5a was the slide rail that enabled the pilot to load the drum-fed Lewis gun from the seat. Previous models such as the Nieuport required the pilot to stand up to replace the drum. The Se5a's ability to fire at aircraft from underneath, using the 45 degrees-from-horizontal loading position, was discovered by accident, not design. It was all so new.

B.

Blutarski2004
11-27-2006, 07:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
I don't think the Se5a was a rotary. An in-line four surely? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SE5a was powered by a Hispano-Suiza V-8, some with a Wolseley UK manufactured version of the Hisso.

Same engine powered the SPAD's. One of the great military aircraft engines.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI

JG53Frankyboy
11-28-2006, 01:42 AM
actually none of the planes in game at the moment, flyable or AI, has a rotary engine !

if the engine would be able to simulate the flight charachteristics of a Camel ?
and the Camel (with a 150hp engine) is realy missed in a 1918 scenario i think !

x6BL_Brando
11-28-2006, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SE5a was powered by a Hispano-Suiza V-8, some with a Wolseley UK manufactured version of the Hisso. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes, I stand corrected http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

B

leitmotiv
11-28-2006, 04:12 AM
I wasn't refering to the SE regarding the rotary. In the review I was citing earlier the author maintained you could not properly "blip" a rotary, when provided for this sim, with the mechanics of this sim since you could not turn the engine off and on. Seemed rather peculiar to me---what he was suggesting, and wrong because WWI pilots were not switching their motors on and off during flight. I did some Googling (since I am not technical), and found this nice description of "blipping" (by, I believe, one of our regulars but on another forum)---see Viper 2000/11 March 2004/12:54PM:

http://forums.x-plane.org/lofiversion/index.php?t7927.html

and here is a great deal of info on blipping courtesy of Google:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=bli...es&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=blipping+aero+engines&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

Thus, I do not think the simplified engine management in this sim will result in completely improbable behavior in the rotaries when they are available.

That reviewer found a huge glitch in the SE5A's flying behavior: left rudder and it banks right, right rudder and it banks left. This doesn't happen with the SPAD or the Fokkers. If anybody could provide a rational explanation for this, I would be grateful (I am going to post a query on the forum for the game). Furthermore, one more SE anomaly, one of my wingmen carried away my upper wing in a collision---and, by maintaining full throttle, and flying straight, I was able to gently land. Right!

Further play revealed that the Vickers jammed, too, if you fired long burst, and that hitting "U" would sometimes, but not always, unjam the gun. Sometimes I had to toggle "U" more than once.

The AI is no slouch. It does not like being attacked. I think, perhaps, the rear-seaters are less effective than they should be. I haven't been killed by a gunner yet. I shot it out with a Salmson gunner, and seemed to silence him, as well as stopping the plane's engine. Hitting is hard. Shooting at long range is a waste of ammunition.

In their jet games, Third Wire advises using "Hard" settings universally for total realism. Thus, "Easy/Normal/Hard" is misleading. I use Hard for everything.

Clearly a crash landing is hard to perform with this item unless you bore straight into the ground. Smacking into trees usually causes no trouble. One thing I prefer about OVER FLANDERS FIELDS is 6 DOF---that last degree of freedom this one lacks for looking right behind.

I still think it is worth it, but I like Third Wire's work. Right now WINGS OVER VIETNAM with the "Yankee Air Pirates" add-on is probably the best researched, most authentic combat flight simulator there is---when you attack a specific, historical target in North Vietnam, it looks like that target, and the explosions and havoc looks like strike camera footage. Perhaps this item will improve with all the good work modders do.

WWMaxGunz
11-28-2006, 05:04 AM
When you say the SPAD is most maneuverable, can you describe that? From all I have read
it should have a phenomenal roll rate (wings at 2 degree anhedral, very high training losses
possibly more than the Camel from my reading in the Britannica over 30 years ago... well hey
I did a term report and the info got wedged in tight) but not a great sustained flat turn
rate due to very thin wings with a deadly sudden stall, something only two Fokkers I know
of (DrI and DVII) did not have for a trait.
Really, the Fokker with the Gottingen wings should be the most maneuverable except for roll
(which by itself is powerful maneuver potential). At sustained turns, loops, pullouts and
such it should do best

--- however ALL that with one big caveat being at what speed the maneuver is done.

Turn is made by lift and lift is not only AOA but IAS. If you don't stall and blow it.

SPAD XIII --- can it hit near 200mph in a powerdive? Whoo-hooo!

Hey LB and you engine guys: what planes got the massive Liberty engine? IIRC I have read
there was a 400 horse version for the SE's.

leitmotiv
11-28-2006, 06:29 AM
OK, MaxGunz, here is the deal. I wish I could eat my words because, after more play, I am not finding a great deal of difference in the performance of the three as maneuverers, except for the fact the S.E. is screwed up by the left rudder---right bank, right rudder---left bank thing. No, wish I could say the S.P.A.D. had a faster rate of roll, but it doesn't seem to roll any better than the D.VIIF.

LEXX_Luthor
11-28-2006, 08:44 AM
leit:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> S.E. is screwed up by the left rudder---right bank, right rudder---left bank thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If that is a mix-up, it could be a negative of a proper value in the data file somewhere, and could be patched soon. Stuff like that happens with some values in the FMs. Mistakes are made. Let em know at the ThudWire forum.

AI will also respond to FM changes. I think the best thing ThirdWire could do (I prefer Cold War) is take advantage of the low level ground avoidance in the SF series' sims. Recall Pacific Fighters releace and planes were hitting mountains in the campaigns. A strong point about SF is very effective AI terrain avoidance limited only by flight model -- which can be seen in 3rd Party maps with large and sharp terrain elevations. Low level strike/intercept simulation over immersive mountainous terrain would take advantage of this.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

leitmotiv
11-29-2006, 04:59 PM
From what I see on the Third Wire forum, the fanboys are circling around the designer (TK), and the discussion is degenerating into how brilliant the design is. TK seems surprised by the S.P.A.D.'s behavior---compared it to an F-104, i.e., very thin aerofoil which resulted in stalls and spins if you abused its flight profile. If he is right, the airplane is behaving correctly. Ominously, nobody seems to notice the crazy behavior of the S.E.

Trinity_Jay
11-29-2006, 05:13 PM
Leitmotiv!

Thanks, man. I am SOLD!

I owe you a frothy mead.

Jay

leitmotiv
11-29-2006, 05:15 PM
Glad you got the message. That campaign mission was immersive and busy, to say the least!

JG53Frankyboy
11-29-2006, 05:30 PM
i rate it as a mediocre game.................. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

the flyable planes and the pits are locking nice.
but if you know the SF:P1 series you "see" that TW pulled "just" the WW1 stuff above this older engine - actually nothing other should be expected http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

some negative points i had afte flying it a bit:
- SE5 rudder makes it close to impossible to aim with this plane
- aiming with the Fokker is only guessing, the sight doesnt come in a shooting line
- SPAD behaviour , well, you have realy to fly carefully............
- in case i didnt miss something (and i dont use Track IR), its ugly that you can only look 90? to the side http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
- the AAA is heavy, but it helps to spot the enemy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


well, i think this thing has to grow.........
a patch for some tweaks.
and planes and other stuff from the community.

even i think its odd to use cockpits to make other planes flyable - was never a fan of that !
anyway, this open structure is very open for 3.party developers.

KotS will blast this piece of software most propably away !


EDIT:
only 90? view already solved http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....topic;f=165;t=000027 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=165;t=000027)

leitmotiv
11-29-2006, 06:18 PM
I don't care one bit for modded airplanes with "borrowed" cockpits---that is from need. I wouldn't call it mediocre---yet. If the S.E. rudder foul-up goes unfixed, I'd rate it below mediocre. The Fokkers, and, apparently, the S.P.A.D., behave as they should, and a good time can be had. The Fokker did not have a central sight---though some were fitted with the world's first reflector sight in WWI.

zhenelzuar
11-30-2006, 02:09 AM
Looks great<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Please add your Il2 skin, mission to our website.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/795/bannerrw2.jpg (http://www.il2.english4ever.com/)

LEXX_Luthor
11-30-2006, 02:15 AM
Lots of stuff you need to fix yourself...if the WW1 sim works like the StrikeFighter series...

JG53:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- in case i didnt miss something (and i dont use Track IR), its ugly that you can only look 90? to the side http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Change the look angles in the cockpit file to anything you like. The relevant file is aircraft's cockpit.ini file that is to be extracted from the ObjectData.cat file in the Objects folder.

much:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but your peripheral vision and situational awareness are just awful. Ive downloaded quite a few biplanes for FS2004, and yeah, its not the height of realism- but its so much easier to pan around so you know where you are and whats going on.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Man I can write 10 thread pages on how to ramp up the view controls and dark Gothic lighting in the SF sims to where its far more immersive than FB or Flaker2.51 (never really played LOMAC). If the WW1 sim is similar, you can radically ramp up the view zoom controls (field of view) and panning speeds. The default settings are overly conservatively slow as molasses. It can be frustrating.

Use the cat extractor and extract -- if this works in the WW1 sim -- and poast your "cockpitview" section of your Viewlist.ini file which is to be extracted from the FlightData.cat in the Flight folder...assuming the WW1 sim works like SF. True? False? Leit?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

JG53Frankyboy
11-30-2006, 04:20 AM
extractor is working, and is needed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

already chanched the the view , much better now as you can see "behind " you !
and the zoom factor of the SE5 sight.


about the other "view" costumizings, i have to look......... perhaps, if i will play this thing any further.


thinking of all the people who will buy this game and never will look in the forums...........
you realy have to be on a dayli track to get this game "up to date" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

leitmotiv
11-30-2006, 04:34 AM
Sorry, LL, I am not "technical"---don't know to what you refer. I use the TrackIR4 Pro, and I have had no trouble "seeing" except for (1) the inevitable difficulties caused by the upper wing in biplanes, and (2) directly behind---there you are blind because that's the one degree of freedom Third Wire left out (it has 5 DOF). I have noticed the view zooms if I look out the right side of my cockpits but not the left. The great thing about the TR4 is that you actually zoom into the view of what is ahead of you if you look forward. Thus, if you see an indistinct biplane, you lean forward and it resolves into a recognizable shape in a flash.

I haven't noticed what I would call "dark Gothic lighting" (even under overcast it is clear because shadow isn't modeled) or slow zoom or panning.

Seems TK, the designer, is ignoring the people who have brought the S.E.'s rudder problem to his attention---an attitude I find incomprehensible. This is a thirty dollar sim with four airplanes---that is a lot of money for four airplanes! To lose one due to an elementary code glitch (reversing the rudder input) is 25% of the package. Shockwave gave you only five aircraft for thirty dollars with their WWII FIGHTERS set for FS9 and FSX, but they are the best aircraft models in the business right now.

JG53Frankyboy
11-30-2006, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Sorry, LL, I am not "technical"---don't know to what you refer. I use the TrackIR4 Pro, and I have had no trouble "seeing" except for (1) the inevitable difficulties caused by the upper wing in biplanes, and (2) directly behind---there you are blind because that's the one degree of freedom Third Wire left out (it has 5 DOF). I have noticed the view zooms if I look out the right side of my cockpits but not the left. The great thing about the TR4 is that you actually zoom into the view of what is ahead of you if you look forward. Thus, if you see an indistinct biplane, you lean forward and it resolves into a recognizable shape in a flash.

I haven't noticed what I would call "dark Gothic lighting" (even under overcast it is clear because shadow isn't modeled) or slow zoom or panning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

to explain:
i have no TrackIR.
when you use the mouse to look around, you can only look 90? (actually move the head) to the left and right.
if you use this small tool extractor, you can open files like cockpit.ini and avionic.ini.
there you can simpley modifie the entries with notepad. so i set the possibilites that i can use the mous to that angle you can use already with trackIR.
as i said, this game is very open structured. but that does not hepl people who want fly this think out of the box http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

leitmotiv
11-30-2006, 04:55 AM
I agree. You shouldn't dump an item with glitches on the market and walk away from it under the assumption those with the time, interest, and skills can modify it. Most of us do not have the time, interest, or the skills to do modding.

Blutarski2004
11-30-2006, 05:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by muchaclopiec:
Ill stick with it, as ive longed for a WW1 sim, but i cant help feeling its been slightly rushed into production. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Christmas sales season.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI

leitmotiv
11-30-2006, 01:29 PM
Latest word from Third Wire forums---patch going to be made to deal with the sad S.E. rudder and other matters. GOOD! Apparently TK, the designer, is standing by his FM for the S.P.A.D. XIII. Now I want to try to find some info which either verifies or disproves his position!

leitmotiv
11-30-2006, 03:14 PM
Finally saw the KNIGHTS OF THE SKY Sopwith Camel physics demo, mazexx. Incredible, incredible, incredible.

http://www.gennadich.com/lang/en/

KOS and BOB will be the greatest flight simulators for PCs, bar none

LEXX_Luthor
11-30-2006, 04:50 PM
Right, I use mouse to look around, so that's what I refer to, not TrakIR. I'll poast my SF Viewlist.ini cockpitview section...bold text refers to important zoom controls...


[ViewClass002]
ViewClassName=CockpitViewClass
ViewType=FIXED_VIEW
ViewGroupID=1
DefaultView=CockpitFront
AllowFromDiffGroup=TRUE
SnapView=FALSE
InsideView=TRUE
FocusObjectOnly=TRUE
FOV=90.0
PitchControl=CAMERA_PITCH_AXIS
YawControl=CAMERA_YAW_AXIS
RollControl=
ZoomControl=CAMERA_ZOOM_CONTROL
JumpToViewSameGroup=FALSE
JumpToViewDiffGroup=TRUE
SmoothAngleTransition=TRUE
SmoothPositionTransition=FALSE
SmoothFOVTransition=FALSE
RememberAngle=FALSE
//RememberFOV=FALSE
//LimitPitch=FALSE
//LimitYaw=FALSE
RememberFOV=TRUE
LimitPitch=TRUE
LimitYaw=TRUE
LimitRoll=FALSE
ZoomFOV=TRUE
ZoomScale=0.10
PanScale=0.01
MinSpeed=000.0
MaxSpeed=000.0
Acceleration=000.0
AngleRates=480.0,360.0,360.0
FOVRate=60.0
MinAngles=-135.0,-20.0,0.0
MaxAngles=135.0,110.0,0.0
MinFOV=15.0
MaxFOV=90.0
OffsetDistance=0.06
TrackIRUseAbsolutePos=TRUE

I don't have the WW1 sim, but if the WW1 sim is like SF, you want to turn off the external view slow camera translation from object to object, which takes forever if externally viewed objects are far apart. How to get instant jump from externally viewed object to object is one of the most asked questions from SF Newbies. Its in the Viewlist.ini...


[ViewClass004]
ViewClassName=ExternalViewClass
ViewType=TRACKING_VIEW
ViewGroupID=0
DefaultView=FreeView
AllowFromDiffGroup=TRUE
SnapView=FALSE
InsideView=FALSE
FOV=90.0
ObjectDistance=50
PitchControl=CAMERA_PITCH_AXIS
YawControl=CAMERA_YAW_AXIS
RollControl=
ZoomControl=CAMERA_ZOOM_CONTROL
JumpToViewSameGroup=FALSE
JumpToViewDiffGroup=FALSE
SmoothAngleTransition=FALSE
<span class="ev_code_yellow">SmoothPositionTransition=FALSE</span> //...turn this to FALSE
SmoothFOVTransition=FALSE
RememberAngle=FALSE
RememberPosition=FALSE
RememberFOV=FALSE
TrackObjectPitch=FALSE
TrackObjectYaw=FALSE
TrackObjectRoll=FALSE
LimitPitch=TRUE
LimitYaw=FALSE
ZoomFOV=FALSE
// play with these also, for ramping up external view control response...
ZoomScale=1.00
PanScale=0.01
MinSpeed=100.0
MaxSpeed=50000.0
Acceleration=10000.0
AngleRates=720.0,600.0,600.0
FOVRate=60.0
MinAngles=0.0,-100.0,0.0
MaxAngles=0.0,100.0,0.0
<span class="ev_code_yellow">MinObjectDistance=10.0
MaxObjectDistance=10000.0</span>
OffsetDistance=0.0
<span class="ev_code_yellow">ResetTime=250</span>


All distance units are meters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Low_Flyer_MkVb
11-30-2006, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Finally saw the KNIGHTS OF THE SKY Sopwith Camel physics demo, mazexx. Incredible, incredible, incredible.

http://www.gennadich.com/lang/en/

KOS and BOB will be the greatest flight simulators for PCs, bar none </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ni-i-i-i-i-i-ce!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n47/LFMkVb/1822.jpg

leitmotiv
12-01-2006, 10:19 AM
OK gang, a poster on the forums (not the designer!) figured out the problem in the S.E.5A program and supposedly fixed it---I haven't had a chance to try it---here is the link:

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=20117#20117

I ordered the Osprey on the S.P.A.D. XIII hoping to find some info on its flying characteristics (for such an important airplane, I couldn't find anything on it, oddly enough---forgot about Albatros Publications [publishes WINDSOCK mag]). Maybe the author knows his stuff.

leitmotiv
12-03-2006, 07:03 PM
I made the change to the S.E.5a's data and, contrary to the posters' claims, all the change did was to reduce the severity of the roll in the opposite direction when rudder applied---problem not eradicated. TK, the designer, posted today that he saw no urgent need to produce a patch since the problems with the sim were not serious. I am frankly very disappointed in the way this item has turned out.

Blutarski2004
12-03-2006, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I ordered the Osprey on the S.P.A.D. XIII hoping to find some info on its flying characteristics (for such an important airplane, I couldn't find anything on it, oddly enough---forgot about Albatros Publications [publishes WINDSOCK mag]). Maybe the author knows his stuff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... LM, what information in specific are you seeking?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BLUTARSKI