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View Full Version : UPDATED. Favorite late-war Bf109 is the K-4.



neural_dream
07-08-2005, 07:21 AM

neural_dream
07-08-2005, 09:33 AM
I was hoping to get you people explain to me what are the differences between those 5 Bfs by saying why you voted what, but apparently i failed, so i should be more direct.

A lot of people prefer the G6AS and the G14 over the K4. Judging by the specs provided in Harball's Aircraft Viewer for Pacific Fighters, the K4 should be an obviously superior choice with G10 coming right next. However, online i see all those 5 types flown by very experienced players. Is it that they just fancy them, or they/you know something that just doesn't appear in statistics and specs.

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-08-2005, 10:12 AM
The G6as is a slightly better turner and it has superior rearward visibility. It's only slightly slower than the K4, but doesn't suffer the apparent same level of elevator stiffness as the k4 either.

I fly the 190's MUCH more online now, but flew the 109's for some time.


TB

JG52Karaya-X
07-08-2005, 10:32 AM
(In historical order)

- The G6late is a normal G6 with DB605A engine and 1475PS power at takeoff - the only difference is the installation of an "Erla Haube" which improves the pilot's view greatly. Armament is 2x13mm MG131 and 1x20mm MG151/20 installed in the nose cone but it can be switched to an Mk108 30mm cannon firing a mix of HEIT and MG shells. Topspeed is around 640km/h at 7000m.

- The Bf109G14 is a G6 with Erla Haube and a DB605AM engine ("M" for methanol injection) which creates 1800PS at takeoff. Normally it was armed with 2x13mm MG131 and 1xMG151/20 but in FB it has a Mk108 cannon instead of the Mauser 20mm - the reason is that Oleg models hungarian built planes that were a bit better in production quality and most of these were fitted with 30mm... (the same applies to the Bf109G10). Topspeed is appr. 665km/h at 6000m.

- The Bf109G6/AS is a bit of a controversy. The historical 109G6/AS was just a G6 with DB605AS engine (without any MW50) which had a larger supercharger which needed a redesign of the cowling (that's why it doesnt have those round MG buldges). However our FB 109G6/AS has a DB605ASM engine which creates 1850PS at takeoff and accelerates the plane to 690km/h at 6000m. Therefore it would be more accurate to call it a Bf109G6/ASM or Bf109G14/AS...
Anyway armament is the same as on the G6 and G14. A lot of people seem to like it but I cant see any sense of picking it over lets say a G10! However it can still carry the MG151/20 so some people might prefer that one over the Mk108...

- The Bf109G10 is a G6 with DB605DB engine with 1850PS at takeoff and an Erla Haube. Its topspeed is around 690-700km/h at 6000m. It's default armament is 2x13mm M131 and 1xMk108 (see above for explanation). It's the second best climber of the 109 family and is only beat by the Kurfürst.

- The Bf109K4 is a modified G10 with several aerodynamic changes. For example the tail wheel is fully retractable and the wheel wells are fully covered to reduce drag. The result is an improved speed and climbrate. Topspeed is around 720km/h - however the handling is a bit worse compared to the G10. Default armament of this type was 2x13mm MG131 and 1xMk108

neural_dream
07-08-2005, 11:04 AM
So, the two reasonable choices seem to be K4 for speed or G10 for better handling.

neural_dream
07-08-2005, 11:42 AM
Ok, it appears that people either don't fly '44 Bfs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, or having read JG52Karaya-X's informative reply, they don't want to disclose their choice any more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif. I am desparately waiting for someone to explain to me why G6AS are so popular.

Ruy Horta
07-09-2005, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
(In historical order)
- The Bf109K4 is a modified G10 with several aerodynamic changes.

Topspeed is around 720km/h - however the handling is a bit worse compared to the G10. Default armament of this type was 2x13mm MG131 and 1xMk108

A couple of comments.

The K-model is not a modified G-10, quite the reverse. The G-10 was an attempt to bring the G-model up to K-model standard and as such utilize production to the maximum, especially refurbished crates.

As such the K-model actually precedes the G-10.

Finally I am not sure how "factual" the handling difference between the G-10 and K-4 was, other than a quote or two. Takes more than a couple of quotes to make for a solid fact, IMHO.

Of course the latter statement could be more related to the game than RL.

Ruy Horta
07-09-2005, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
I am desparately waiting for someone to explain to me why G6AS are so popular.

The G-6/AS would be one of the lightest of that line up, combining speed with relatively easy handling. If it also has MW 50, it even gets a free ride at low(er) altitudes.

You'd expect the G-14 to be more popular, since most people stay down low on deck where there is no use for the larger AS supercharger. There is something not quite right when a "G-6 Late" is more popular than a G-14.

But speed being everything it is obvious that the K-4/G-10 enjoy a lot of popularity.

Been a while since I last was online so I lost my feel for what is hot and what is not...

Vike
07-09-2005, 12:34 AM
I'm -almost- an only Bf109 flyer OnLine.

When i can,i fly on the K4,which seems to be the more achieved plane of the 109 serie.

As some others pilots,i don't really feel a better handling between G10 and K4.I simply fly it and,as usual,try to destroy the more allied planes i can http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW,i noticed in FB-AEP that the 109s -in general- was the most difficult planes to manoeuver and to fight with.
I found it was a more interesting challenge to fly and fight with it,instead of flying in P51,spitfires...

I also find that plane has an incredible agressive looking (like a shark,or a wolf),
-the 109K4 especially- that finally made me hooked on it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

@+

JG52Karaya-X
07-09-2005, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
The K-model is not a modified G-10, quite the reverse. The G-10 was an attempt to bring the G-model up to K-model standard and as such utilize production to the maximum, especially refurbished crates.

As such the K-model actually precedes the G-10.


The G10 was designed and produced before the K-series. Quoting "Deutsche Jagdflugzeuge im zweiten Weltkrieg": "Die Bf109K oder auch Kurfürst war als Standardmodell geplant, das schneller gefertig werden sollte als die Fülle der Varianten und Untervarianten der Baureihe Bf109G. Basierend auf der Flugzelle der Bf109G10 mit verbesserter Kanzel, wies die Bf109K standardm¤ßig einige der fortschrittlichen Ver¤nderungen auf, die in der G10 mittels Umrüstbaus¤tzen verwirklicht worden waren, sowie eine Reihe von kleineren aerodynamischen Verbesserungen, die in ihrer Summe betr¤chtliche Wirkung zeigten."

For all non-german speakers: "The Bf109K or "Kurfürst" was planned as standardmodel which should be produced quicker than the wealth of types and subtypes of the Bf109G series. Based on the cell of the Bf109G10 with improved canopy the Bf109K incorporated many of the advanced modifications which had been realized in the G10 in form of field-modifications as well as a handful of small, unique aerodynamic improvements which in sum showed considerable effect."

Atomic_Marten
07-09-2005, 06:19 AM
K4 was the fastest and the best climber of all Bf109s, thus it should be the best Bf109 online ride. That is automatically the end of that story for me.

About favourite (that is not really relevant to the efficiency, obviously) it is the G10 model for me.

Tvrdi
07-09-2005, 06:21 AM
I voted g6AS...maybe G10 is a better in some areas, but K4 ---> I dont like it because it overheats so f quickly....can somebody explain me why K4 overheats so quickly? (and please the same question goes for the late Corsair)...

JG52Karaya-X
07-09-2005, 06:57 AM
There seems to be a bug with the K4 regarding the engine overheating so quickly... If you have a look at the temp. gauge in the cockpit you will find 2 of them. If you have MW50 engaged one of them (I think the upper 1) will constantly rise towards 120? no matter what's your engine power (even under 100% power). So in the long run you will overheat the engine even at 50% power which is very odd http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

VW-IceFire
07-09-2005, 09:04 AM
I prefer the G-10 when I'm flying. Its a compromise between maximum engine power and performance in the K-4 and the agility and lightness of the G-6A/S. The G-10 is just fast enough to keep up with the opposition and essentially just as agile as the rest of the late 109s.

I think its just well balanced in terms of flying.

neural_dream
07-09-2005, 10:45 AM
can somebody explain me why K4 overheats so quickly?
I don't really think the K4 overheats particularly quickly. I had the same complaint for a few spitfires, for which it does become an issue, and of course the Corsair. But no, i find the K4 good enough in that respect.

Ruy Horta
07-09-2005, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
The G10 was designed and produced before the K-series.

Quoting "Deutsche Jagdflugzeuge im zweiten Weltkrieg":

Basierend auf der Flugzelle der Bf109G10 mit verbesserter Kanzel, wies die Bf109K standardm¤ßig einige der fortschrittlichen Ver¤nderungen auf, die in der G10 mittels Umrüstbaus¤tzen verwirklicht worden waren, sowie eine Reihe von kleineren aerodynamischen Verbesserungen, die in ihrer Summe betr¤chtliche Wirkung zeigten."

Both are basically wrong based on at least four more specialist publications.

Messerschmitt Bf 109 F,G & K Series, by Prien and Rodeike

Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual, by Fernández-Sommergau

Messerschmitt Bf 109 K, by Poruba and Janda

Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10/U4, by Poruba and Janda

Fernández-Sommergau:

"The G-10 series appeared in the Autumn of 1944, chrnologically after the K-4, making it the last Bf 109 sub-type built before the war's end. The G-10 is defined by the Flugzeug Baureihenbuch (OKL type list) as a 'bastard type' - a variant destined to achieve the same level of performance as the K-4 by installing the DB 605 DM engine on the then current G-14/AS airframe production lines."

Prien/Rodeike:

"Deliveries of the G-10, which was planned as a supplement to the K-series and which represented a connecting link between it and the G-series, began in the autumn of 1944. The G-10, production of which ran from October 1944 until the end of the war, resulted from conversions of older series, like the G-6 and G-14. As a result it was referred to as a "bastard aircraft" in the Bf 109 type sheet. It was not actually a further development of the G-series, rather it represented an attempt to bring older, repairable machines up to the standard of the K-4, which was being manufactured in parallel, through a conversion progress. The object was to supplement production of the new K-4 with repaired aircraft of almost equal value in the cheapest manner possible."

The most up to date explanation can be found in Poruba/Janda:

"A note in an official list of Bf 109 models of 2nd August 1944 documents the fact, as it described the Bf 109G-10 as "Bastard Flugzeug der Fertigung Erla". The new model was to be developed by Erla as an independant design, not connected with the on-going development of Bf 109G and K. Reports of the Bf 109G and K program (run by Regensburg) therefore did not mention the G-10 model."

To summerize the K-model was a true design, started in 1943, the G-10 was a quick solution, matching the latest powerful engine to the latest standard G-model fuselage.

Introduction of both models almost coincided, respectively August (K-4) and September (G-10).

For those with an interest in the G-10 I can really recommend:

Luftwaffe over Czech Territory - 1945 Vol. II
Messerschmitt Bf 109G10/U4
Production & Operational Service
Poruba/Janda
JaPo, 2004

Don't be fooled by the title, this is probably the single best title on the G-10 available.

Although the 109 is one of the most famous fighters of WW2 there is still room for research and improvement. Unfortunately not all writers make use of the latest research and keep repeating old mistakes.

Don't take my word for it either, but when in doubt double check at least two or three other works, preferably specialist (instead of general). If possible take a look at the sources being used.

I can quote one of my older titles:

Monogram Close-Up 7
Gustav
Messerschmitt 109G Part 2
Thomas Hitchcock
Monogram, 1977

"Appearing in the grey winter skies of November 1944, the Bf 109 G-10 was the fastest performing model. As in the case of the G-8 series, the G-10 was not a fully fledged production model, but was essentially an interim fighter employing features later standardized by the Bf 109K series."

airdale1960
07-09-2005, 01:00 PM
BF109F-K, how did the allies ever prevail with these planes defending? Climb, speed, turn, and a heavy punch. Kinda like Muhammed Ali.

Tvrdi
07-09-2005, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">can somebody explain me why K4 overheats so quickly?
I don't really think the K4 overheats particularly quickly. I had the same complaint for a few spitfires, for which it does become an issue, and of course the Corsair. But no, i find the K4 good enough in that respect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

another one-side player/whiner?, but OK, its your opinion...but tell me, why K4 overheat quicklier than other BFs..and whats about Corsair...btw read Karayas post carefuly....
if you want my opinion...I think its not accidentally that both planes are the last types in the successful series which overheats quicklier (corsair from `45 and bf109 from late `44, means theyr the best one- at least in those two particular cases)...so maybe juts for the balance http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif their overheating is faster....btw, i think a lot of things in the game (on both sides) is balanced for gameplay...after all, its only a game/sim...we must swallow that....overheating in the game is really adjusted without any real documents - simply they dont exist for all planes, at least we dont have detailed docs for all planes..or tests from ww2...so its an area for playing....I understand we cant do much in that area...

neural_dream
07-09-2005, 01:15 PM
Who's whining? I use the K4 and i said it performs alright to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

and no i definitely didn't ignore Karaya's explanation of why K4s overheat in this game.

Tvrdi
07-09-2005, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
Who's whining? I use the K4 and i said it performs alright to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

and no i definitely didn't ignore Karaya's explanation of why K4s overheat in this game.

OK mate, then i got it all wrong...because you had issue with corsair and spit regarding overheating and K4 was cool for you...OK

Tvrdi
07-09-2005, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Vike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
I use the K4 and i said it performs alright to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Me too,i find that the DaimlerBenz turns well.
I didn't notice any overheat problem... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

--------------------

I have two questions/requests for The 1C Team.

-Why the 109s haven't ejecting brasses when firing,like some nose-gun-mounted Yak?

And,moreover

-Why the K4 hasn't the small doors for the tailwheel,like the P51,look at it:


In the game,the tailwheel simply goes into fuselage,without any modelled littledoors like P51...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

@+ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

really, you didnt noticed that K4 overheats faster than other BFs??....the same for you..read Karayas post

Vike
07-09-2005, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
I use the K4 and i said it performs alright to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Me too,i find that the DaimlerBenz turns well.
I didn't notice any overheat problem... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

--------------------

I have two questions/requests for The 1C Team.

-Why the 109s haven't ejecting brasses when firing,like some nose-gun-mounted Yak?

And,moreover

-Why the K4 hasn't the small doors for the tailwheel,like the P51,look at it:

http://www.tamiyamodelmagazine.com/images/Gallery/109/109e.jpg

In the game,the tailwheel simply goes into fuselage,without any modelled littledoors like P51...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

@+

VW-IceFire
07-09-2005, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by airdale1960:
BF109F-K, how did the allies ever prevail with these planes defending? Climb, speed, turn, and a heavy punch. Kinda like Muhammed Ali.
Because:
1) There weren't that many of them
2) There weren't many experienced pilots to actually make use of them
3) The Allies had their own limited number super fighters with which to counter them
4) There wasn't enough fuel to keep them all going as much as was wanted
5) The Allies had a large number of fighters and experienced pilots or well trained pilots to call on

Although German industry was still churning out fighters at an incredible pace in 1945, even better than in 1941, 1942, and 1943...they often sat parked on the ground with no fuel or no pilots.

airdale1960
07-10-2005, 01:23 AM
Icefire:
Logistics seemed to stop the German war machine on several occasions. After living here in Germany off and on for a while, I would think the Germans would've had the upper hand in this area, they are so organized.

JG52Karaya-X
07-10-2005, 04:51 AM
I recall a storie from Johannes Steinhoff who after the war joined the newly formed Luftwaffe and became a very important person in the NATO.

He said that in mid-44 he was witness to a very tragic happening. On a very foggy day at the western front (some french airfield) a group of Bf109s had to be flown to the frontline - problem was that the pilots were green...

Takeoff was already a problem with some crashing shortly after takeoff - no aircraft actually made it to the target http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

So pilot training was already lacking very much in early-mid 44

IL2-chuter
07-11-2005, 03:03 AM
The best planes went to the best pilots, however. (JG301 staff could have gone with the D-9 instead of going to the Ta, but it turned and accellerated way better . . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Towards the war's end, German pilots could hardly have their aircraft rolled out from under cover without attracting attention from allied aircraft . . . one pilot said his crew would roll his plane out and he would warm it up and take-off and stay low and fast, the whole time waiting and watching for allied fighters to swoop in, then he'd climb, still looking out. He said every flight towards the end was scary, allied planes were everywhere. So it was, as much as anything, a numbers thing. (I believe that was Knoke.)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

neural_dream
07-13-2005, 08:05 AM
The sample is definitely too low to get any conclusions, but i will dare to say that it seems

the <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">K-4</span> is the <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">most popular</span> late-war BF in this game.