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Philipscdrw
02-03-2006, 05:46 AM
Hi folks

As an aerospace engineering student I get the Royal Aeronautical Society's monthly magazines. In this issue there was a book review/obituary about the book/life of a Royal Aircraft Establishment chap who tested the Mustang in WW2 (for the UK). He was able to prove that ditching a Mustang would always be fatal to the pilot, therefore Mustang pilots HAVE to bail out.

I could post the relevant bit of the magazine if anyone's interested. I'd have to get it from home though.

Philipscdrw
02-03-2006, 05:46 AM
Hi folks

As an aerospace engineering student I get the Royal Aeronautical Society's monthly magazines. In this issue there was a book review/obituary about the book/life of a Royal Aircraft Establishment chap who tested the Mustang in WW2 (for the UK). He was able to prove that ditching a Mustang would always be fatal to the pilot, therefore Mustang pilots HAVE to bail out.

I could post the relevant bit of the magazine if anyone's interested. I'd have to get it from home though.

ImpStarDuece
02-03-2006, 05:59 AM
I guess all those pilot accounts of ditching Mustangs and living through it are bollocks then....

Don Gentile must be mighty suprised for one

From P-51 Aces of the Mighty Eight p. 22.

"Upon his return to Essex base, Gentile buzzed the field in time honoured fashion, the well decorated Shangri-la 'pouring on the coals' and giving the assembled crowd a real thrill. But Gentil's last low pass was a little too low, and the red nosed Mustang scraped the ground with its radiator as it shot past the press. Gentile managed to belly land the P-51B and walk away virtually unscathed -the aircraft, however, was totalled."

The P-51D Pilots Operation Handbook states:

"It is possible to ditch the P-51 sucessfully and it has been done on seceral occasions. However, it is a hazardous business"

Later it states that while jumping from as low as 500 feet is advisable "If it isn't possible to make a sucessful parachute drop, remember that the P-51 can be ditched successfully"

Philipscdrw
02-03-2006, 06:07 AM
By 'ditch' I think he meant landing on water. Isn't that the usual definition of 'ditch'? I thought landing without undercarriage was a 'belly-landing', as your account says.

This chap had to make a film showing models of Mustangs landing on water, showing that it would (almost?) certainly be fatal to do so. That suggests that the pilots had a strong idea that they could ditch (on water) safely.

I'll bring back the article, should be up in a couple of days.

Philipscdrw
02-03-2006, 06:14 AM
Just found this on Google:

The account of Flt. Lt. Freddie Clarke, an RAF Mustang pilot.

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/clarke.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...he was concentrating on getting set up to ditch (a non-habit forming task in those days since the air scoop under the aircraft would catch the water surface flip the nose down to vertical and the plane would sink before the pilot had a chance to escape.).

...

At the time he was the only pilot to ditch a Mustang and survive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do think it's odd when an aircraft travelling at 150mph hits the sea and stops within its own length, and doesn't kill everyone on board with the whiplash...

SeaFireLIV
02-03-2006, 06:30 AM
I suppose if this proves true it will be quietly ignored.

Philipscdrw
02-03-2006, 06:48 AM
Eh... if enough evidence of the ditching characteristics of different planes can be found, I'd give it to Oleg to do with as he will.

It's not the most central issue, if a virtual pilot dies or lives after crashing in the sea, I suppose. He's still crashed and his plane is gone.

That said, if BoB includes some sort of simulation of the Air-Sea Rescue squadrons (naval and aero), then ditching characteristics would be more important...

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 08:44 AM
This has been said about other planes though. It was pretty much an unwritten rule that you don't land a Spitfire on water as it meant instant death. It was also meant to be that way with Typhoons and Tempests but one Typhoon pilot ditch into the channel twice in one week in 1943 and lived. I can see the problem with the Mustang landing on water is the radiator intake acting as a giant break rather than say a P47 which has a smooth belly to land on.

Chuck_Older
02-03-2006, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Hi folks

As an aerospace engineering student I get the Royal Aeronautical Society's monthly magazines. In this issue there was a book review/obituary about the book/life of a Royal Aircraft Establishment chap who tested the Mustang in WW2 (for the UK). He was able to prove that ditching a Mustang would always be fatal to the pilot, therefore Mustang pilots HAVE to bail out.

I could post the relevant bit of the magazine if anyone's interested. I'd have to get it from home though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My F-51D Pilot's Handbook (it covers "early model" aircraft without gyro gunsights, ie: the D model Mustangs we have in the sim, they just renamed them "F-51" when the USAAF evolved into the USAF) covers in clear detail how to perform a water landing in an F-51D

You strike the water with a wing low, kick the rudder in that wing's direction when it contacts the water, slew the plane around, and exit quickly, the plane will float for only 2 seconds

I have to argue in favor of the Pilot Handbook on this one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

berg417448
02-03-2006, 10:15 AM
Captain Huie H. Lamb, 82nd Fighter Squadron, recollects a unique account of ditching and rescue in the English Channel:



Huie Lamb recalls:

"On December 29, 1944, John was my wingman on a raid over Germany. John's radio went out and I was ordered to escort him back to base. John and I had been flying Thunderbolts out of Duxford and this was our very first mission in the new Mustangs. We were cruising at 25,000 feet when my plane sudddenly lost engine coolant and began losing power. My first thought was to stretch my glide and try to make it back to the English coast, but I was dropping to fast. Then the nose of my plane burst into flames and I decided to try to bail out, but couldn't release my canopy. I finally got the canopy open but was too low to bail out. "

"The first in a succession of miracles was being able to ditch the P-51 in the icy waters of the North Sea. I saw the whitecaps coming up at me. Somehow I was able to point the nose into the wind, drop my flaps and stall out just above the surface. I remember thinking I should hit the water as slow as possible. The tail hit first. Then a wave caught my right wing and the plane cartwheeled."

"It was a miracle that I survived the ditching in the high waves because I had my seat belt and shoulder harness unbuckled in anticipation of bailing out. I got out of my seat and out of the plane, pushing away as far as possible to avoid the down suction. The nose plunged under with a burst of steam. The plane sank like a rock. It was gone in 30 seconds. The water was freezing cold. I pulled the strings to inflate my Mae West and dinghy but couldn't get into the dinghy so just hung on for dear life."

http://www.78thfightergroup.com/history/huielamb.html

Philipscdrw
02-03-2006, 10:47 AM
It seems that FB/PF aircraft float much longer than some real aircraft did... maybe they're all too light.

Maraz_5SA
02-03-2006, 01:13 PM
I read somewhere that Stuka pilots would get rid of their undercarriage (by side slipping on the sea surface) because otherwise the undercarriage caused the aircraft to overturn when ditching.

Maraz

spitfire22287
02-03-2006, 01:18 PM
I have to agree with Chuck here. The main reason not to ditch with a Mustang was that if you contacted the water traveling forward at a "high speed" (~130 mph is fast in the relative sense when you are ditching/belly landing), the scoop would drink up so much water so fast, the Mustang might as well be a stone, not giving the pilot enough time to get out. However, the method that Chuck described causes the scoop to hit the water at a much slower speed. Water would quickly enter, but not rush in extremely fast like if you hit the water traveling forward. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
02-03-2006, 01:43 PM
The scoop seems to have caused the most problems in a water landing but I've also read several accounts of the scoop digging into the ground if the Mustang was brought in at the wrong angle or in very soft dirt/mud. The schock could rip off a substantial portion of the rear fues.

ytareh
02-03-2006, 01:58 PM
As far as I know Gentile didnt survive the war.I think he may have been killed in a crash....

ImpStarDuece
02-03-2006, 02:26 PM
Don Gentil died in 1951 after crashing a T-33 trainer

MercilessFatBoy
02-03-2006, 02:39 PM
i heard the corsair was a not plane to ditch because of it is wing,... it would alreays end up on it is back... how dangerous would that be?

Treetop64
02-03-2006, 05:03 PM
It makes sense that the Mustang was a particularly dangerous plane to ditch, on the account of it's radiator scoop. Not so much so that it fills with water, but upon making contact with the water that scoop will act pretty much like a huge brake! The AC will likely nose over and destroy itself faster than the pilot can do anything about it.

You can never travel too slowly to ditch an aircraft; the water might as well be concrete at those speeds.

AFSG_Bulldog
02-03-2006, 07:22 PM
I believe it was those same Royal Aircraft Establishment chaps that said beer was supposed to be warm... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

They were wrong then too...LOL

Skycat_2
02-04-2006, 12:08 PM
If the water is like concrete at those speeds, then why not just put down the gear and make a normal landing? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BinaryFalcon
02-04-2006, 12:28 PM
I have a copy of a P-51D/K pilot's manual.

In the section on ditching, they obviously recommend that the pilot bail out if at all possible.

However, the manual goes on to say that the P-51 can be successfully ditched, but that it will sink within 2 seconds of coming to a stop.

Taylortony
02-04-2006, 01:02 PM
A force landing on land such as in an engine failure it was recommended that you put it down wheels up, as it would tip over and kill you wheels down

Chuck_Older
02-04-2006, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BinaryFalcon:
I have a copy of a P-51D/K pilot's manual.

In the section on ditching, they obviously recommend that the pilot bail out if at all possible.

However, the manual goes on to say that the P-51 can be successfully ditched, but that it will sink within 2 seconds of coming to a stop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

same info as the F-51 manual, probably the same drawings, too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Aaron_GT
02-04-2006, 02:50 PM
I'd say that sinking within 2 seconds is not completely inconsistent with the original poster's suggestion that ditching in water was pretty much not survivable. You can split hairs - but 2 seconds to undo your harness and get out - not much time. Obviously from pilot accounts it didn't always sink quite as quickly as that, but I presume they based the 2 second suggestion on something.

Chuck_Older
02-04-2006, 04:09 PM
Maybe to light a fire under the pilot's *** to get out of the cockpit, quick! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But two seconds does seem like very little time. Imagine hanging a foot up!

vanjast
02-04-2006, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Hi folks

As an aerospace engineering student I get the Royal Aeronautical Society's monthly magazines. In this issue there was a book review/obituary about the book/life of a Royal Aircraft Establishment chap who tested the Mustang in WW2 (for the UK). He was able to prove that ditching a Mustang would always be fatal to the pilot, therefore Mustang pilots HAVE to bail out.

I could post the relevant bit of the magazine if anyone's interested. I'd have to get it from home though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny..
after reading this post first my immediate thoughts were..

'absolute rubbish, coming in low just above stall pull the stick back hard and 'belly-flop', controling it with rudder([sorry forgot] and engine torque).'

This is the reason why there was so much contoversy between those 'who thought they knew' and 'those who knew better'. Philip, you one of the few who have bothered to bridge that gap. Well done.. we will certainly be hearing from you in later years.

Look forward to this.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

vanjast
02-04-2006, 06:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Hi folks

As an aerospace engineering student I get the Royal Aeronautical Society's monthly magazines. In this issue there was a book review/obituary about the book/life of a Royal Aircraft Establishment chap who tested the Mustang in WW2 (for the UK). He was able to prove that ditching a Mustang would always be fatal to the pilot, therefore Mustang pilots HAVE to bail out.

I could post the relevant bit of the magazine if anyone's interested. I'd have to get it from home though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another funny thing..
This guy 'ditched the plane and lived' or was he full of it like most other 'wannabees'
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Skoshi Tiger
02-04-2006, 07:26 PM
Just a link to a previous discussion
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m...781064833#5781064833 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/5401012833/r/5781064833#5781064833)
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tully__
02-05-2006, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
It seems that FB/PF aircraft float much longer than some real aircraft did... maybe they're all too light. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe the water's only 6 inches deep http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
02-05-2006, 08:37 AM
i still belive that sometimes the people expect to much from this game............

IL2-chuter
02-07-2006, 05:25 AM
Hear, hear. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


And as far as the Stuka gear mentioned earlier . . . it was jettisonable. And not particularly sturdy, either. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

luftluuver
02-07-2006, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skycat_2:
If the water is like concrete at those speeds, then why not just put down the gear and make a normal landing? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>And what happens when the speed drops below the 'concrete' speed? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Anyone who races boats knows the 'concrete' speed is about 80mph. That is the speed when more serious injuries start occuring.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-07-2006, 08:28 AM
If your plane was sinking I suppose you could survive by breathing oxygen from the mask - until it got to about 9m deep at which point the partial pressure would become toxic and kill you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Philipscdrw
02-10-2006, 06:31 AM
Hey. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ditch the Tempest, see how it sinks in a couple of seconds.

Bremspropeller
02-10-2006, 11:05 AM
You can't try the "gear-down" stunt with a taildragger, but a Cessna (non RG) would more or less roll on the water down to a speed of roghly 60 Knots (granted the surface is flat enough...) - from there it would start to sink in.

I've read that some years ago in a flight-safety column of a general-aviation magazine.