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View Full Version : Zekes vs Wildcats server. Served own head on a plate by P-38s. Any advice?



RocketDog
01-22-2007, 04:18 AM
I spent a couple of hours on the Zekes vs Wildcats server over the weekend and on each map took an underdog IJA/IJN aircraft. Either the Ki-61 or the A6M Zero. I didn't do too badly with the Ki-61, and even had a K/D ratio of better than 1:1 at one point - although it's no match for any second-generation US aircraft and I spent a lot of time hiding in the clouds.

However, the "Aelutian" map (uses the Hawii map, I think?) pitted A6M2s and A6M3s against P-38s and P-40s. It's possible to hold your own against the P-40, but trying to fight the P-38s was an exercise in hair-tearing frustration. None of the P-38 drivers were silly enough to try to out-turn me, so the game consisted of:

1. I fly low. I get boom & zoomed from above by what appear to be supersonic P-38s. I am target practice.

2. I fly high. This is a pathetic attempt to have some spare energy. P-38s climb up to me and the already wide gap between our performance opens to a chasm and they totally dictate the fight. The feeling is rather like treading water in the ocean while being circled by sharks. I am target practice.

The best I could do was to force some of their runs into head-to-head engagements and land a few strikes, but most of the time it was pretty hopeless.

Now, I know that this is probably a pretty accurate reflection of real life. If the P-38 driver knows Zeros are around all he has to do is keep flying fast and resist the temptation to turn and he can pretty much control the fight.

So what would you do? Has anyone found a way to use the mid-war Zeros effectively against P-38s? Or is this just an inevitable consequence of the rather artificial conditions of a dogfight server?

RD.

RocketDog
01-22-2007, 04:18 AM
I spent a couple of hours on the Zekes vs Wildcats server over the weekend and on each map took an underdog IJA/IJN aircraft. Either the Ki-61 or the A6M Zero. I didn't do too badly with the Ki-61, and even had a K/D ratio of better than 1:1 at one point - although it's no match for any second-generation US aircraft and I spent a lot of time hiding in the clouds.

However, the "Aelutian" map (uses the Hawii map, I think?) pitted A6M2s and A6M3s against P-38s and P-40s. It's possible to hold your own against the P-40, but trying to fight the P-38s was an exercise in hair-tearing frustration. None of the P-38 drivers were silly enough to try to out-turn me, so the game consisted of:

1. I fly low. I get boom & zoomed from above by what appear to be supersonic P-38s. I am target practice.

2. I fly high. This is a pathetic attempt to have some spare energy. P-38s climb up to me and the already wide gap between our performance opens to a chasm and they totally dictate the fight. The feeling is rather like treading water in the ocean while being circled by sharks. I am target practice.

The best I could do was to force some of their runs into head-to-head engagements and land a few strikes, but most of the time it was pretty hopeless.

Now, I know that this is probably a pretty accurate reflection of real life. If the P-38 driver knows Zeros are around all he has to do is keep flying fast and resist the temptation to turn and he can pretty much control the fight.

So what would you do? Has anyone found a way to use the mid-war Zeros effectively against P-38s? Or is this just an inevitable consequence of the rather artificial conditions of a dogfight server?

RD.

JG53Frankyboy
01-22-2007, 04:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
......... Has anyone found a way to use the mid-war Zeros effectively against P-38s? ....... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is no way for the Zero.... you have to wait if the P-38 pilot makes a mistake.

there is nothing to blame about it (i dont say you did that !!) - all other things would be just wrong.

the thing i do flying a Zero in such a missions is:
not flying too high, as max 3000m, not too fast not loose its turnability.
having the canopy open and the seat raised and locking around not to be ambushed........
you can survive (if you are not attacking bombers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) but have few chances to claim a kill.

mynameisroland
01-22-2007, 04:30 AM
P38 holds all the cards except for turn at slow speeds and also slow sustained climb.

Your best chance is to bounce them as they form up and get alt after taking off. Hide in the clouds enroute to the targets they will fly to and get them when they are not looking to be jumped.

WOLFMondo
01-22-2007, 04:55 AM
I think I know the map your talking about on ZvW, the P38J does very well for itself and the zero is left standing and helpless. One thing I noticed is very few of them work together whereas the P38J can lone wolf it with some ease.

mynameisroland
01-22-2007, 05:07 AM
If you can arrange some team work for the Blue side try and get one or two Zekes to be the bait and fly decoy 1000m below the main body( try hiding in the sun or in a group of clouds). Keep the decoy guys well informed so that when the P38s come in and bounce them they break and the P38s zoom back up. This is when the other Zeros can pounce when the P38s should be much slowed and helpless at the top of their zoom climbs.

HayateAce
01-22-2007, 06:25 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

RocketDog
01-22-2007, 06:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
having the canopy open </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good suggestion for anyone who flies IJN/IJA aircraft. I do this in the Ki-61, N1K2 and A6M and it makes a huge difference to how well you can see.

RD.

BSS_CUDA
01-22-2007, 06:43 AM
the best part of flying on that map was folding the G4 in half like a soft taco. on the plus side there is only 4 38J's allowed, so most of your time would be spent engaging the P40's and P400's your only hope to beating the 38's on that map is to wait until they engage the Betty's and get shot up, then pounce on them.

by the way if your little excursion was Friday night then it was probably me and some squaddies. I told them if they turned at all I was going to personaly shoot them down for being stuid http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

RCAF_Irish_403
01-22-2007, 07:01 AM
IMO, the P38 owns everything the Japanese can field in 1943.

teaming up is going to be a prerequisite for success. Try to take up a three man team ( 2 x Ki61, 1 x A6M2 ) use the zeke for bait, get the Lightning low and B'n'Z in a pair with the KI61's. Use both KI61's as shooters in a staggered dive.

Best I can do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Marcel_Albert
01-22-2007, 07:10 AM
It's too unbalanced , that's for sure .

Only Japanese planes i ever fly is the A6M2 which was a revolutionnary aircraft in 1940 but that is already completely outdated barely 1 year after the start of the war , only fair fights are against Wildcats . And the Ki-84 because that's the only Japanese plane that has performances close from the best US fighter plane (P-51) although inferior in speed and as an energy fighter .

All other IJA/IJN aircraft are just flying graves for me , and i have very little satisfaction by downing Zeroes , Hayabusas etc.. with Corsairs , P-47 , P-38etc.. cause it's just too easy and unbalanced , there is nothing they can do if you stay fast and use the right tactics . Just replace them with German aircraft then it's another story , way more balanced and challenging for an US a/c pilot , that's one of the reason i fly more ETO .

That's also one of the reason i'd love to have a KI-46 flyable in the sim , as it is first of all , a beautiful twin engine , but also a plane that is quite fast compared to other IJN planes , and is manoeuvrable enough to engage fighters although the armament is Very , very light as it was a recon plane except the Ki-46III Kai "****ei" with 37mm canon and twin 20mm but that had considerably reduced performances as a consequence .

AKA_TAGERT
01-22-2007, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
IMO, the P38 owns everything the Japanese can field in 1943.

teaming up is going to be a prerequisite for success. Try to take up a three man team ( 2 x Ki61, 1 x A6M2 ) use the zeke for bait, get the Lightning low and B'n'Z in a pair with the KI61's. Use both KI61's as shooters in a staggered dive.

Best I can do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Was a busy weekend!

HL got up to 1,000+ again!

I think the split due to the slow death of 4.04 and 4.05 starting to ware off in that 4.07 is unifying the comunity once again and servers are full!

With that said I spent a good amount of time in Z vs. W this weekend and experanced the P38 edge myself! The zero.. love to BnZ it! The Ki61.. Love to turn with it, in that it just freqs the Ki61 pilot out that I would and can! The Ki84b.. that is about an even playing field and you can not mess around! But the N1 and JM plane are a hand full even for the 38L LATE!

Those two planes make an avg pilot an ace and forces the 38 pilot to bring his/her A game to the fight!

But I love the challange!

PS Cuda and Gibbage talked about geting all the P38 hands online sometime.. I really think this would be a fun time! We shold pick a date and time! Maybe even make a little psydo temp sqd for it? Cuda.. if you read this.. how about you do a PM and invite all the P38 pilots you know of to a PM conversation so we can talk about doing this?

Marcel_Albert
01-22-2007, 07:36 AM
Well Tagert , with your P-38late , just stay fast (you are MUCH faster at ANY alt , at 3000m N1k2 does 540kph , P38 late does 625kph ... ) , N1k2 will never be able to follow at any altitude , never turn with him , and dive in case of emergency , he cannot follow ... it's not much challenge since you can decide if you want to fight or not , while he cannot decide nor escape you ... you can outrun him and go back home or climb high then comeback , it's really safe in theory ..

J2M3 are good it's true , but no match for P-51 or P38 late , you are much faster at any altitude especially above 5000 meters and his engine is plagued by overheating less than 1 minute of full power... he won't be able to follow you long , especially since again , you are faster than him (except J2M5 who is on par more or less with 38late but for a short moment cause of overheats and doesn't retain well its energy ). Only mistake to make against him is trying to outclimb him when he's close to you or trying to outturn him , other than i don't see where is the challenge when again , you are the one who decides the conditions of the engagement ..

Or perhaps we don't have the same definition of challenge , what's sure is that if you meet them at sea level and try to dogfight them , it is sure one hell of a challenge (especially with their unforgiving 4X 20mm cannons ) , but if you go with 2-3 mates and fly high then boom and zoom them , they simply don't stand a single chance to survive cause they' ll never be able to follow you nor outperform you at high speed , nor they can afford to take the slightest damage that will kill their plane performances , but i respect your opinion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AKA_TAGERT
01-22-2007, 07:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
Well Tagert , with your P-38late , just stay fast (you are MUCH faster at ANY alt ) , N1k2 will never be able to follow at any altitude , never turn with him , and dive in case of emergency , he cannot follow ... it's not much challenge since you can decide if you want to fight or not , while he cannot decide nor escape you ... you cabn outrun him and go back home or climb high then comeback , it's really safe </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Roger that is basically what I do! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But sometimes I have been bounced by them.. and that is whey the dive break comes in handy! I draw them in and just before they start shooting I chop the throttle and hit the breaks (Mavrick style). Most of the pilots are not smart enough to just pull up and save thier energy.. they try and turn with me at which point they fly by and I end up on their six!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
J2M3 are good it's true , but no match for P-51 or P38 late , you are much faster at nay altitude esepcially above 5000 meters </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Emmmm I dont know abou that? That J2M3 is FAST!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
and his engine overheats after 45 seconds of full power... he won't be able to follow you long . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If so that is good to know! Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
Only mistaje to make against him is trying to outclimb him when he's close to you or trying to outturn him , other than i don't see where is the challenge when again, you are the one who decides the conditions of the engagement .. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well Ill have to fly the J2M3 again.. in that the last time I did (ie know the enmy) I found it to be as fast if not faster than the 38 in level flight. If so, than I don't decide and thus the challange.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
Or perhaps we don't have the same definition of challenge , what's sure is that if you meet them at sea level and try to dogfight them , it is sure one hell of a challenge , </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is the senario 9 out of 10 times on Sunday. I know it is not historic but it is the hand I was delt! That and I have to be honest.. I like to turn fight the 38L LATE! It is a much better turn fighter than most people give it credit for! I freq alot of pilots out and have been acused of using a hack because I sit on thier six with my 38! But, no can do with the J2M3! That thing is like a zero on crack! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So I will have to adj my tatics a bit and give that plane more respect and deal with it in a more historic manor/tatic.. Which is what I belive your saying!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
but if you go with 2-3 mates and fly high then boom and zoom them , they simply don't stand a single chance to survive cause they' ll never be able to follow you nor outperform you at high speed, nor they afford to take the slightest damage that will kill their plane performances, but i respect your opinion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Roger that one the buddy tatics! I was lone wolfing it on Sunday! And I was getting tangeled up with some teamed up J2M3s that were escorting the Bettys! It was a heck of a time! But fun as all get out!

Marcel_Albert
01-22-2007, 08:04 AM
Yes well , i exagerate a bit of J2M3 overheating at full power under a minute , it's true when you take off , climb and fly with it for a while with let's say 80-100% of throttle and 100% of prop pitch , so your engine isn't cold like if you start a QMB mission , then when you activate the full power with boost , it starts overheating pretty quickly , i mean very quickly , and afterwards it's really a problem to keep the engine cold , a bit like in the Hellcat .

But there is still the trick of 103% throttle luckily , P-47 is the plane i fly the most so it's the same for J2M3/5 , if you lower prop pitch and put 103% of throttle , it delays considerably the overheat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif*

But basically , you are right and it's true that the J2M3/5 still are very dangerous opponents , i overlooked them in my first post http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Col._King
01-22-2007, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">PS Cuda and Gibbage talked about geting all the P38 hands online sometime.. I really think this would be a fun time! We shold pick a date and time! Maybe even make a little psydo temp sqd for it? Cuda.. if you read this.. how about you do a PM and invite all the P38 pilots you know of to a PM conversation so we can talk about doing this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Count me in for that!
And BTW, the Hell's Devils are flying P-38 as main equipment plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers!

RocketDog
01-22-2007, 08:32 AM
The P-38L-late is faster than the J2M3 at all heights except for a few 100 m either side of 5,000m. But the edge isn't that great (maybe 30-40 kmh) so with careful flying and a height advantage the J2M3 player can still, at least in theory, get a shot in. Against the standard P-38L the J2M3 actually has a small advantage. I'm not sure how representative our P-38L-late is of anything that actually flew in the war in significant numbers. Anyone know? However, the J2M3 does have an excellent climb and should be able to leave even the P-38L-late eating weeds up to about 6,000m.

Overall, I would take a J2M3 against either the P-38J or L and feel I had a reasonable chance. Against the P-38L-late it's getting a bit one sided and against the P-51 the J2M3 is so slow it's almost funny.

The J2M5 narrows the gap with the P-38L-late and is actually faster above 5,000m, but only about 30 ever saw service so I don't really like to fly it that much - obviously, other players don't mind flying rarities like this or the Ta-152H.

I also think there's something odd with the J2M3/5 overheating. Someone posted up in Oleg's Ready Room that the overheat time is not affected by the position of the radiators making it very dfficult to cool the engine. Could be a bug, but I haven't had time to test it myself and in any case, an engine buried so deep in the fuselage ought to overheat easily? Whatever, it certainly seems to overheat very quickly compared to other aircraft and it limits the aircraft's usefulness in a dogfight because WEP speeds can only be sustained for very short bursts. If you are trying to run from a chasing P-38L or F4U-1D you need to find a friendly cloud to hide in PDQ because your engine will sieze long before his does.

The N1K2 handles beautifully and looks cool, but it's outsped significantly by all US aircraft it's likely to meet except the Hellcat (and it has an edge over early P-47s up to about 1,000m). In real life this resulted in exactly the same set of outcomes as it does in the game. Even Genda's elite Ko 343 got totally stuffed when fighting P-47s and P-51s over the Japanese mainland. They did OK vs Hellcats, though.

I really shouldn't have installed IL-2 compare on my work PC http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Cheers,

RD.

BSS_AIJO
01-22-2007, 08:32 AM
hmm,

I know the map well.. A well flown p38 is pretty much untouchable and more than able to rule the fight. Part of the trick is to get them down into the vallys and keep them there. The high speed advantage is greatly reduced down in those weeds. 8^) They also get used to attack the targets. So, I hang out over there and wait. I managed a p38 kill on that map on saturday morning. When flying the zero on that map you really have to keep your SA as high as possible to avoid the inevitable high speed bounces.


BSS_AIJO

Mr_Nakajima
01-22-2007, 09:18 AM
I agree about the J2M3 heating up very quickly. It's fast, but has no staying power. The times I've flown it on-line I have had to husband its ability to dash very carefully, but I still got clobbered by...you guessed it, a pair of P-38L lates. (Mind you their pilots knew exactly what they were doing and I was toast about 45 seconds after I met them).

I rarely fly the P-38 but took a P-38J over New Guinea over the weekend. It is pretty much untouchable if you keep the speed up aginst A6M2, A6M3 and Ki-61s. Nice feeling of invulnerability!

Mr_Nakajima
01-22-2007, 09:28 AM
Oh, and to answer Rocket Dog's question, I agree the only hopes you have are:

a) Surprise.
b) The P-38 pilot is inexperienced.
c) Teamwork.

All these will work, but the greater the performance gap between aircraft the less impact they will have.

PFflyer
01-22-2007, 09:43 AM
Here is a hint:

Climb to high alt where there are no P-38s,

Then hunt for P-38s in a place where they ARE climbing to alt and going slowly, get it?

There is nothing the home team squads on warbirdsofprey enjoy more than flying around in faster and better planes and zapping axis fodder, and their server is designed as much as possilble to set this up for them.

Most servers have allied biased planesets, because most servers are based in countries that were allied during WWII, and warbirdsofprey servers are as biased as any for sure. They will scream to high heaven they are not, but by nature a conditioned mind is incapable of seeing
what it actually is.

rnzoli
01-22-2007, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Most servers have allied biased planesets, because most servers are based in countries that were allied during WWII, and warbirdsofprey servers are as biased as any for sure. They will scream to high heaven they are not, but by nature a conditioned mind is incapable of seeing
what it actually is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your suggestion is to make that specific map better.... with what? I mean, it's hard to see the validity of your critical comment without proposing something to improve it. Or maybe your mind is also conditioned by getting shot down too often there? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Quite typical around here in the forums, that's why I ask http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Irish_Rogues
01-22-2007, 10:28 AM
The way I see it, part of the problem is the game's plane set in general as it was never designed as a "real set". It's very hard to have a variety of planes available if you want 100% accuracy or let the masses fly their favorite plane as the allied plane ranks are incomplete or missing. Perfect example is the Spitfire starting at Mark V, this kills the really fun early war stuff as the Spit is a fan favorite and you end up with the Spit V against 109 E. I think sometimes the "bias" is meant to be a fudge for inclusion of a plane people like, the problem is there is often not the counter fudge for balance. If you've fudge a little then the historical, accurate, or looks part is blown with the extra performance and by those 20 mm sticking out. Might as well go a little further then and lose the supports on the tail and give the other guys the historical opponent to the 20mm fudge, then it's more fun for everybody and not just one side. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

AKA_TAGERT
01-22-2007, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
I'm not sure how representative our P-38L-late is of anything that actually flew in the war in significant numbers. Anyone know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually there was no such thing as the P38L LATE! In that all L models were cleared for 60MP+ from the start! Thus it is the non-late P38L that is the anomaly here. Long story short, Oleg should have simply updated the P38L FM with the one used on the P38L LATE and never included the LATE in that it gives the false impression that there were two types of L models and that one did not show up until later in the war.

StellarRat
01-22-2007, 11:54 AM
Now you know how all those dead Japanese pilots felt. Sorry, but RL is not fair. The Zero was hopeless after 1942.

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-22-2007, 12:11 PM
Zero only has a few options. Its the exact opposite as it was in real life but Zero pilot should look for a head on from 10-2 Oclock. I would not suggest a direct 12 Oclock. Since the P-38 has somewhat of a screwy damage model you can exploit it by doing this. Use some slide slip on the way in it will be harder for those nose mounted guns to land. Once the P-38 is damaged its big advantages are diminished greatly.

Good luck with that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Scen
01-22-2007, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
P38 holds all the cards except for turn at slow speeds and also slow sustained climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is a misnomer... The 38 had incredible control at slow speed and it was quite the turner when they where using differential throttles. Of course the Zeke was right in the wheelhouse so it doesn't makes sense to play his game.

If the 38 keeps cool and uses his superior speed and climb there is very little a zero can do to counter it.

KaleunFreddie
01-22-2007, 12:50 PM
I've seen these scenarios all to often. Although B&Z is good for RL, these p38 guys get all too c..ky, thinking they own the road http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif what you do. you play their game. You are the sitting duck, so you play sitting duck at your most manouverable speed. Keep you eyeball on the P38 gleefully trying to hyperspace from behind you. At the last moment move hard as he will not be able to follow, but move back to original line asap, which he will be approx. Here's where you can get snapshots in - aim for the cpit.. you'll get one or more soon enough.

If they come from the front, turn onto their line before they get near you, do same as above.

You can also go low with a cammo plane to make it harder to see, and do the same story.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

AKA_TAGERT
01-22-2007, 01:05 PM
in summary

greed kills

speed is life

Gibbage1
01-22-2007, 02:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Col._King:
Count me in for that!
And BTW, the Hell's Devils are flying P-38 as main equipment plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im lookin for a good 38 squad to join. I was tearing it up a little this weekend in WC. Im flying a lot more since 4.07 and having fun.

BSS_CUDA
01-22-2007, 02:44 PM
Gibbage, Motrin and I fly the 38 almost exclusivly, Vainspark flys it quite often, and several of our members are starting to recognize the joy of this magnificent bird. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif BSS214.com (http://BSS214.com)

P.S. Tag I'll PM ya when I get home

LEBillfish
01-22-2007, 02:57 PM
First off.....In any plane I don't care what you're in, "if you're not fighting, you should be climbing"....

That said, in any of the planes mentioned I'll fight the P38....In fact, their speed means little except for running. Climb above them, and watch, as you see them struggling to climb dive down, punch, then climb back up as they try to dive away...Now after a bit you'll get one turning, stay on him, and hammer away, yet the second he starts gaining any distance climb.

You forget, you CAN out turn him, So it's easy enough when he points that nose up to jink out of the way then as her tries to track losing his E you pounce again.

The whole trick and this really stands with any plane...Is simply force the advantage to your way....If he scoots out of the area no doubt to extend and climb...Time to go, as by no means should you EVER in ANY plane fight on equal terms.

Always make the advantage yours...So to that end so will be the fight.

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-22-2007, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
First off.....In any plane I don't care what you're in, "if you're not fighting, you should be climbing"....

That said, in any of the planes mentioned I'll fight the P38....In fact, their speed means little except for running. Climb above them, and watch, as you see them struggling to climb dive down, punch, then climb back up as they try to dive away...Now after a bit you'll get one turning, stay on him, and hammer away, yet the second he starts gaining any distance climb.

You forget, you CAN out turn him, So it's easy enough when he points that nose up to jink out of the way then as her tries to track losing his E you pounce again.

The whole trick and this really stands with any plane...Is simply force the advantage to your way....If he scoots out of the area no doubt to extend and climb...Time to go, as by no means should you EVER in ANY plane fight on equal terms.

Always make the advantage yours...So to that end so will be the fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds good. Unless of course it is I in the P-38. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RocketDog
01-22-2007, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
First off.....In any plane I don't care what you're in, "if you're not fighting, you should be climbing"....

That said, in any of the planes mentioned I'll fight the P38....In fact, their speed means little except for running. Climb above them, and watch, as you see them struggling to climb dive down, punch, then climb back up as they try to dive away...Now after a bit you'll get one turning, stay on him, and hammer away, yet the second he starts gaining any distance climb.

You forget, you CAN out turn him, So it's easy enough when he points that nose up to jink out of the way then as her tries to track losing his E you pounce again.

The whole trick and this really stands with any plane...Is simply force the advantage to your way....If he scoots out of the area no doubt to extend and climb...Time to go, as by no means should you EVER in ANY plane fight on equal terms.

Always make the advantage yours...So to that end so will be the fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Climbing probably makes things worse in this particular match up. The problem is that as the Zero climbs it's moving to heights where the performance difference with the P-38 is getting wider and wider. By the time you're at 7,000m the P-38J will actually outclimb an A6M3. Being at height also gives the P-38 the chance to just dive away - it has a Vne of 820 kmh vs the A6M3's 700 kmh. At least at low level the P-38 can't put it's nose down and run off. So unless the P-38 driver obligingly circles around underneath you at best-climb speeds you're going to be a bit stuck. I think that if you get caught at height the best you can hope for is to turn the combat into a series of head-to-head runs and hope that your aim is better. Either way, unless you can just run for home it's not likely to go well for the Zero.

Cheers,

RD.

mynameisroland
01-22-2007, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
P38 holds all the cards except for turn at slow speeds and also slow sustained climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is a misnomer... The 38 had incredible control at slow speed and it was quite the turner when they where using differential throttles. Of course the Zeke was right in the wheelhouse so it doesn't makes sense to play his game.

If the 38 keeps cool and uses his superior speed and climb there is very little a zero can do to counter it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P38 was excellent here also but not in the same class as the Zeke.

Xiolablu3
01-22-2007, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
P38 holds all the cards except for turn at slow speeds and also slow sustained climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is a misnomer... The 38 had incredible control at slow speed and it was quite the turner when they where using differential throttles. Of course the Zeke was right in the wheelhouse so it doesn't makes sense to play his game.

If the 38 keeps cool and uses his superior speed and climb there is very little a zero can do to counter it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P38 was excellent here also but not in the same class as the Zeke. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, you cant expect a P38 to outturn a Zero.

Gibbage1
01-22-2007, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Agreed, you cant expect a P38 to outturn a Zero. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazingly, McGuire would disagree with this statement. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEBillfish
01-22-2007, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
Climbing probably makes things worse in this particular match up. The problem is that as the Zero climbs it's moving to heights where the performance difference with the P-38 is getting wider and wider. By the time you're at 7,000m the P-38J will actually outclimb an A6M3. Being at height also gives the P-38 the chance to just dive away - it has a Vne of 820 kmh vs the A6M3's 700 kmh. At least at low level the P-38 can't put it's nose down and run off. So unless the P-38 driver obligingly circles around underneath you at best-climb speeds you're going to be a bit stuck. I think that if you get caught at height the best you can hope for is to turn the combat into a series of head-to-head runs and hope that your aim is better. Either way, unless you can just run for home it's not likely to go well for the Zero.

Cheers,

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well actually that is the point, you never let them get up....Your superior climb is there to get to a point of where you will have e available from the dive as he is struggling...You then get to dictate the alt. Not him http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Col._King
01-22-2007, 09:30 PM
Gibbage, ~S~
Please click on the link in my siggy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 12:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Agreed, you cant expect a P38 to outturn a Zero. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazingly, McGuire would disagree with this statement. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

from Maj Thomas B. McGuire Jr.
in the report "Fighter Command Tactics i the SWPA" ( or in short the "Twelve to One" report)

"On the offensive,...................... Dont't turn with the enemy. It can't be done.
Your main assets are speed and firepower - use them. .................."

anyway, i also belive at high speed the P-38 had a better turn than any Zero. but if you are loosing this spped in the turn.........

RocketDog
01-23-2007, 01:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
...you never let them get up....Your superior climb is there to get to a point of where you will have e available from the dive as he is struggling...You then get to dictate the alt. Not him http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice in theory, but you must play against much less experienced players than I face http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Maybe some of them do get daft enough to try that sometimes, but I've not seen P-38s hanging around and "struggling" in a climb when they know there are A6Ms around. They normally extend and climb where it's safe.

Cheers,

RD.

Xiolablu3
01-23-2007, 03:15 AM
SOrry, I should have added in a mid-low speed, close in dogfight.

The Zero was probably the best turning modern fighter of WW2, so it should come as no surprise.

This is my idea of a nightmare scenario if I have to fly blue. There really isnt much you can do unless the P38 makes a mistake.

Its very much like FW190 vs Spitfire, if the FW190 stays fast and flies to his numbers, the Spitfire is going to find it very hard just to get close to him.

If I was in the Zero, I would try to use teamwork. Get on TS and stick togther.

BillyTheKid_22
01-23-2007, 08:01 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif P-38!!!!

Viper2005_
01-23-2007, 09:13 AM
In this scenario your best tactic is to simply not bother flying blue since if the reds have any sense you're toast. Remember, this isn't a real war, so there's no reason to fight from a position of disadvantage unless that's your idea of fun.

The best way to make your point about balance is simply to vote with your feet. If sufficient numbers of your team mates agree with you then the reds will be left to play with themselves. Shortly thereafter the server will probably empty. If this happens enough times in connection with a particular map the chances are that changes will eventually be made...

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 09:34 AM
you mean there should be no 1943 PTO missions online ?

Xiolablu3
01-23-2007, 10:44 AM
Ah come on Viper, there are alot of unbalanced maps online, but thats how things were. Was you post supposed to be a joke?

People should fly both sides, and even up the teams, not just fly one side which has the best planes, that sucks.

Sure flying a Zero vs later P38's is tough, but so is flying Spitfire V's vs Focke Wulfs, or Yak1's vs Me109F4's.

As long as everyone is prepared to fly both sides and take their turn on the other team, there is no problem.

I would not fly with people who were unwilling to even up the teams. The server I fly most on and the people I fly with are ALWAYS willing to even up the teams. It shows a real lack of maturity if you will not take your turn in the Zero, in a P38 vs Zero fight.

(Not aimed at Viper, but at anyone unwilling to fly both sides. Its just a game, remember?)

BillyTheKid_22
01-23-2007, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Ah come on Viper, there are alot of unbalanced maps online, but thats how things were. Was you post supposed to be a joke?

People should fly both sides, and even up the teams, not just fly one side which has the best planes, that sucks.

Sure flying a Zero vs later P38's is tough, but so is flying Spitfire V's vs Focke Wulfs, or Yak1's vs Me109F4's.

As long as everyone is prepared to fly both sides and take their turn on the other team, there is no problem.

I would not fly with people who were unwilling to even up the teams. The server I fly most on and the people I fly with are ALWAYS willing to even up the teams. It shows a real lack of maturity if you will not take your turn in the Zero, in a P38 vs Zero fight.

(Not aimed at Viper, but at anyone unwilling to fly both sides. Its just a game, remember?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">REALLY!!!</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-23-2007, 11:11 AM
I have a few favorite rides (for both sides in all theaters) and sometimes I relish the idea (and challenge) of fying at a great disadvantage.

I fly'em all.

Marcel_Albert
01-23-2007, 11:12 AM
Well i think that P-38 vs Zero is the same difficulty as Me-262 vs P-51/47 TBH .

Difference is that you see servers with P-38 vs Zero , but you never see servers with 262 .

Spit V vs Focke Wulf A4 is almost fair if you know well your Spit and fly very high , actually , the Spitfire V and 109F4 are the only 1941 planes i can still use in 1944 with chances of surviving and achieving success in the sim .

Having played online for 2-3 years on the Hypperlobby , it's true there are very nice people always willing to balance sides and that are nice to others , but the majority is people who want to show others how good they are , just look at the choices of people in the popular dogfight servers , a huge majority of people always go for the most powerful and faster planes , i rarely see people flying 109G6 , or 47's Razorback on 1944 servers , they all go for the best like for Dora , K4 and P-51 etc.. most of the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


This said , it's true that we just cannot ignore 1943 PTO , and it's good that it is reprsented in servers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Maybe the solution is to limit the number of P-38 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyway , every time i'll have the chance , i'll try to fly the Zero against P-38 although i much prefer the P-38 which is one of my favourite a/c as i love twin engines and US planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BSS_CUDA
01-23-2007, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
Maybe the solution is to limit the number of P-38 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already are on this map, only 4 P-38's allowed, most of the planes are P-40's and P-400

Xiolablu3
01-23-2007, 11:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
I have a few favorite rides (for both sides in all theaters) and sometimes I relish the idea (and challenge) of fying at a great disadvantage.

I fly'em all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

BfHeFwMe
01-23-2007, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Agreed, you cant expect a P38 to outturn a Zero. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazingly, McGuire would disagree with this statement. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No he wouldn't, he says never follow a turn, but break out as soon as you begin to lose deflection in the sight.

McGuire on tactics (http://www.savlan.com/475FG/Combat%20Tactics.htm)

Some good tips, even for Zeke pilots, the use of deception and mock fights to draw in noobs could work.

RocketDog
01-23-2007, 01:11 PM
Interesting link Bf. This bit is telling:

"The only Japanese fighter which can be outmaneuvered by a P-38 is the twin engine Nick. When pursuing or pursued you must keep to the shallow dive, climb or turn because there is not a trick maneuver in the book that can't be done better in a Japanese plane than in a P-38"

Cheers,

RD.

Xiolablu3
01-23-2007, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
Difference is that you see servers with P-38 vs Zero , but you never see servers with 262 .
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Marcel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ukdedicated2 has the Me262 on some maps, in limited numbers.

The Berlin map - La7 B20/Yak3/Pe2/IL2 (I guess IL10 will have been added?) versus Me262/Dora/109K4/Me110/Ju88 is really good fun actually.

It soon becomes 'just another map' after a while, even tho there is a Me262. I prefer these battles :

109F4/109E Jabo vs SPit Vc2/Hurricane IIC - 1941,
Zero/Ki61 vs Seafire/Corsair - 1943,
Hellcat Vs Zero 1943-4,
SPit VIII/Beaufighter vs Ki84/Betty - 1944,
La5/Yak9 vs Me109G2/FW190A5 1942/3,
P38Late/Corsair/P51D/P47DLate/Spit 25lbs vs Fw190D9/Me109K4/Fw190A9/Limited 5 Me262
or
Fw190A6-A8/Me109G2-G6 late vs SpitIX/P51B/C - 1943,

There are certain planeset matchups which never fail to create good maps, in my opinon. The above matchups being some of those. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I much prefer these battles to Me262 maps.

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-23-2007, 02:20 PM
Everyone always blames the plane. Surely it could not be the person flying it...that hurts too much. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

RocketDog
01-23-2007, 02:46 PM
Well, the person flying it certainly makes a difference. But if you want to claim that with equal pilots a Zero is just as effective an air-superiority fighter as a P-38, P-51 or Corsair, then - with respect - you are wrong. If you don't agree, then try fighting an Me-262 in a TB-3 and see how far you get.

Cheers,

RD.

Viper2005_
01-23-2007, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Ah come on Viper, there are alot of unbalanced maps online, but thats how things were. Was you post supposed to be a joke?

People should fly both sides, and even up the teams, not just fly one side which has the best planes, that sucks.

Sure flying a Zero vs later P38's is tough, but so is flying Spitfire V's vs Focke Wulfs, or Yak1's vs Me109F4's.

As long as everyone is prepared to fly both sides and take their turn on the other team, there is no problem.

I would not fly with people who were unwilling to even up the teams. The server I fly most on and the people I fly with are ALWAYS willing to even up the teams. It shows a real lack of maturity if you will not take your turn in the Zero, in a P38 vs Zero fight.

(Not aimed at Viper, but at anyone unwilling to fly both sides. Its just a game, remember?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't care what side I fly for, but since being a target drone isn't my idea of fun, I generally tend to avoid matchups which would put me into that position. I also don't derive much satisfaction from knocking target drones down.

I prefer balanced fights precisely because this is only a game, and well balanced fights are a better use of my free time.

Xiolablu3
01-23-2007, 03:10 PM
I know what you mean, but sometimes it can be cool to go up against it. Its a good test of your team-making skills.

There is one map - SIngapore, the planeset is

Hurricane IIb/Gladiator/Blenhiem vs Ki43b/Ki27/D3A, and the Hurricane is both slower and can be outurned by the Ki43. It does have good guns however, and any Oscars unlucky enough to be caught are ripped to shreds instantly.

It takes a lot of teamwork to get them however. The whole map is a test of how well reds can play as a team, otherwise they are massacred.

I have grown to love that map, I hated it at first. As soon as it starts, I pick red (I know most will pick blue - its the easy option) and try and get the team organised through chat or Teamspeak. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BSS_CUDA
01-24-2007, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tagert:
Cuda.. if you read this.. how about you do a PM and invite all the P38 pilots you know of to a PM conversation so we can talk about doing this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tag check your PM's and get back to me