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View Full Version : Memory limitations(Possible Spoilers)



mojsarn
01-13-2010, 05:31 PM
A thought crossed my mind and want your thoughts on it aswell.

Was thinking of the***Spoiler*** Altair and Maria scene on the Acre tower, and when Altair leaves the camera goes into Marias womb.

That would mean that Desmond or anybody else are not able to see the life after the last child of the ancestor is born.

In other words we may never relive the deaths or see what happends to them after the woman has been pregnant if you dont follow them through the childs memory.

What do you think? Since a huge part of the ancestors life is lost it is a pretty short lifespan(memory wise) due to people make a baby fairly early in their life.

That means Ubisoft have to squeeze in all the important things happend to the ancenstor early in his life(if there is any ancestors left in the series that is).

mojsarn
01-13-2010, 05:31 PM
A thought crossed my mind and want your thoughts on it aswell.

Was thinking of the***Spoiler*** Altair and Maria scene on the Acre tower, and when Altair leaves the camera goes into Marias womb.

That would mean that Desmond or anybody else are not able to see the life after the last child of the ancestor is born.

In other words we may never relive the deaths or see what happends to them after the woman has been pregnant if you dont follow them through the childs memory.

What do you think? Since a huge part of the ancestors life is lost it is a pretty short lifespan(memory wise) due to people make a baby fairly early in their life.

That means Ubisoft have to squeeze in all the important things happend to the ancenstor early in his life(if there is any ancestors left in the series that is).

Locopells
01-13-2010, 05:49 PM
Makes sense - all ancestor genetic memories would only come from before each generation was conceived - I mean a copy of a CCTV tape will not show anything from after it was made, even if the source survives.

Matt_156
01-13-2010, 05:57 PM
just like Being John Malkovich

OzDavis
01-14-2010, 04:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mojsarn:
In other words we may never relive the deaths... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The only way the animus technology could relive the death of the ancestor being viewed would be the memory of a mother that died in childbirth, with the memory immediately switching to the child.

caswallawn_2k7
01-14-2010, 04:18 AM
in theory if they followed the mother they would have the genetic memory right up until the baby was fully developed, as all the time they are building from their mother so should have the genetic memory right up till the point they stop developing.

Abeonis
01-14-2010, 04:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by caswallawn_2k7:
in theory if they followed the mother they would have the genetic memory right up until the baby was fully developed, as all the time they are building from their mother so should have the genetic memory right up till the point they stop developing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true; you also have to remember that a child would spend a significant part of their early years around the parents (ideally), meaning that, from a certain point of view, one could still follow the activities of the father - in this case Altair - by following the child's memories. And presumably, the child would be their upon the parents death as well.

TwinIltani
01-14-2010, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by caswallawn_2k7:
in theory if they followed the mother they would have the genetic memory right up until the baby was fully developed, as all the time they are building from their mother so should have the genetic memory right up till the point they stop developing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost. If we're talking about pure DNA following, then the genetic crossing process (and the formation of the child's DNA) takes place upon conception, no? Once the new DNA is formed, end of parent story, be it father or mother. The baby survives thanks to the mother's system, however the DNA formation process has already been completed. That's what the game itself suggests, since we lose track of Altair after the tower scene and stay with Maria, with the camera panning straight into her abdomen, as if to let us know that this is where we're at now.

We gotta remember though that the Altair sequence happens when Desmond is suffering from the "bleeding effect." Does that have its own imprint on the story?

You may have a point here, however. The first thing from Ezio's life that we witness is his birth, so that would fit rather nicely with your theory.

caswallawn_2k7
01-14-2010, 07:20 AM
if you want to get really picky and work it on the DNA meeting you would never have the run to the top of the tower or even maria's DNA remembering the event, as the stuff doesn't just get made as soon as it is needed. also working on the theory a woman has a finite number of egg's and has them all from the start they could never pass on genetic memory as they never make more in later life.

Locopells
01-14-2010, 11:53 AM
http://assassinscreed.wikia.co...ssassin.27s_Creed_II (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Maria_Thorpe#Assassin.27s_Creed_II)

itsamea-mario
01-14-2010, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by caswallawn_2k7:
if you want to get really picky and work it on the DNA meeting you would never have the run to the top of the tower or even maria's DNA remembering the event, as the stuff doesn't just get made as soon as it is needed. also working on the theory a woman has a finite number of egg's and has them all from the start they could never pass on genetic memory as they never make more in later life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that is a very good point that i cant believe i didnt relise, so that would mean we can never follow the life of the mother of the ancestor, only the males in the mothers line. so that is the answer to the female ancestor, it cant be done scientifically.

Locopells
01-14-2010, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by caswallawn_2k7:
if you want to get really picky and work it on the DNA meeting you would never have the run to the top of the tower or even maria's DNA remembering the event, as the stuff doesn't just get made as soon as it is needed. also working on the theory a woman has a finite number of egg's and has them all from the start they could never pass on genetic memory as they never make more in later life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that is a very good point that i cant believe i didnt relise, so that would mean we can never follow the life of the mother of the ancestor, only the males in the mothers line. so that is the answer to the female ancestor, it cant be done scientifically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you COULD follow the mother's life, but caswallawn_2k7 is right, her genetic memory would date from the creation of that particular egg during the current period cycle, so only Altair could pass on the memory of that particular event (i.e. the moments before it was conceived).

caswallawn_2k7
01-14-2010, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">her genetic memory would date from the creation of that particular egg during the current period cycle </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
a woman doesn't create eggs as they age they are born with them this is why they run out as they get older and cant have babies past a certain age (dependant on number of eggs) were men create their stuff every so often allowing them to have kids pretty much indefinitely. so a woman's genetic memory would never be passed on as the egg will never have the memory of the mother as the eggs are created at birth or a very young age.

Locopells
01-14-2010, 07:59 PM
Wiki is a wonderful thing, it would seem in simplistic terms, you're right (I knew I should have paid attention at school). So much for the hopes of thoses wanting a female Assassin for AC3. If there is, Ubi will have to think of a way to get round this!

itsamea-mario
01-15-2010, 09:41 AM
well you could have a modern day female assassin, BUT I DONT WANT THAT i want to play as DESMOND.

still cant believe i didnt remember the egg thing, im like in the top class for biology and i have exams soon. but yeah no female ancestors, unless you just want to see what the inide of the womb looks like for about 5 minutes.

DLTyrus
01-15-2010, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> a woman doesn't create eggs as they age they are born with them this is why they run out as they get older and cant have babies past a certain age (dependant on number of eggs) were men create their stuff every so often allowing them to have kids pretty much indefinitely. so a woman's genetic memory would never be passed on as the egg will never have the memory of the mother as the eggs are created at birth or a very young age. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is assuming, of course, that the sci-fi(ish) concept of "DNA Memory" changes your DNA with every memory you have. This, however, would not make much sense since if your DNA changes every single second as new memories are imprinted into it, then surely people's DNA would never match at different points in their lives (AKA rendering DNA profiling used by police as useless, or so it would seem.)

I see your point that, if the eggs are created at birth, then the baby would have no memories. However, I doubt Ubisoft will worry about biological scienctific flaws, I mean this is Sci-Fi afterall, plus you can argue that if memories imprint on the DNA, they imprint on -all- the DNA including that in a woman's eggs, and not that new DNA needs to be generated by sperm etc. in order to contain the memories.

mojsarn
01-15-2010, 03:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DLTyrus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> a woman doesn't create eggs as they age they are born with them this is why they run out as they get older and cant have babies past a certain age (dependant on number of eggs) were men create their stuff every so often allowing them to have kids pretty much indefinitely. so a woman's genetic memory would never be passed on as the egg will never have the memory of the mother as the eggs are created at birth or a very young age. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is assuming, of course, that the sci-fi(ish) concept of "DNA Memory" changes your DNA with every memory you have. This, however, would not make much sense since if your DNA changes every single second as new memories are imprinted into it, then surely people's DNA would never match at different points in their lives (AKA rendering DNA profiling used by police as useless, or so it would seem.)

I see your point that, if the eggs are created at birth, then the baby would have no memories. However, I doubt Ubisoft will worry about biological scienctific flaws, I mean this is Sci-Fi afterall, plus you can argue that if memories imprint on the DNA, they imprint on -all- the DNA including that in a woman's eggs, and not that new DNA needs to be generated by sperm etc. in order to contain the memories. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Dont think the memories changes the whole DNA, its probably stored somewhere but im not an expert in DNA build up. And are aware that it sci-fi =D

Another thing that crossed my mind, I said that the person in the Animus wouldnt have memories after the last child is born, thats is not correct since the other children creates their own branches in the family tree, so according to Desmond he is an descendant of Altairs first born.

The descendant of Altairs second child could possibly see more of Altairs later life.

And this means that a hell of a lot more people can see memories of Altairs life, and would mean that Abstergo didnt need Desmond in the first place, since he was a person that was hard to find they could atleast find someone that was easier to find.

caswallawn_2k7
01-15-2010, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And this means that a LOT of people can see memories of Altairs life, and would mean that Abstergo didnt need Desmond in the first place, since he was a person that was hard to find they could atleast find someone that was easier to find. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
over time family branches will expand and end so there could be more than one person with Altairs memories, but due to the way they are working they also needed a person who nobody would miss, since it seems they have no intention of letting Desmond go.

Locopells
01-15-2010, 07:15 PM
Plus if females can't pass on memories, then it's more then possible, that Des is the one with only males between him and Altair, et al.

DLTyrus
01-15-2010, 08:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">its probably stored somewhere but im not an expert in DNA build up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't claim to be an expert either :P but following the idea through; if memories are stored in DNA surely its stored in all your DNA, including that of a woman's eggs, regardless of when that DNA was "made", right?

Lazybeans
01-15-2010, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DLTyrus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">its probably stored somewhere but im not an expert in DNA build up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't claim to be an expert either :P but following the idea through; if memories are stored in DNA surely its stored in all your DNA, including that of a woman's eggs, regardless of when that DNA was "made", right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, with this theory, a woman would still carry the genetic memory of her ancestors but would not be able to store her own; she would just be a generation skip. She'd be a "carrier" of memory.

ShadowriverUB
01-16-2010, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lazybeans:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DLTyrus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">its probably stored somewhere but im not an expert in DNA build up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't claim to be an expert either :P but following the idea through; if memories are stored in DNA surely its stored in all your DNA, including that of a woman's eggs, regardless of when that DNA was "made", right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, with this theory, a woman would still carry the genetic memory of her ancestors but would not be able to store her own; she would just be a generation skip. She'd be a "carrier" of memory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You right, i would carry information of her father and and father of mother and father of mother of mother and go on and on

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Plus if females can't pass on memories, then it's more then possible, that Des is the one with only males between him and Altair, et al. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Subject 16 was too, Lucy find Ezio in Desmond memory as "Relevant Memory Data" with Subject 16 (first scene of AC2), so if Male only theory is true and since Ezio is part of absolute male chain,... this mean Desmond and Subject 16 are very strongly related and contain Altair memory too as also Desmond got Adams (Truth video title).

On other hand why Lucy even care to check relevant memory data if she knows how limited genetic memory is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Personally i hope male only theory is false, since this would mean we have only one memory timeline http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

DLTyrus
01-16-2010, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Well, with this theory, a woman would still carry the genetic memory of her ancestors but would not be able to store her own; she would just be a generation skip. She'd be a "carrier" of memory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure the logic here - assuming DNA can carry memories, it seems it is able to both hold the memory of your ancestors and store your own, else Desmond would only have the genetic memory of his earliest ancestor, but he clearly doesn't.

All I'm saying is, a woman's eggs might be produced at birth only while a man's semen is constantly reproduced, but I don't see why that would mean a woman's memories aren't imprinted into her eggs' DNA while a man's memories are imprinted into his semen, unless you assume you need to create "new DNA" for the memories you've had since you last "created DNA" to be a part of that DNA.
This would be a bizarre process, though, because instead of drawing a logical parallel with that of the brain - that similar to how memories forge new neuro-pathways into the brain, so do memories forge new DNA...whatevers into your DNA - instead you'd have to adopt some theory that your mind takes its memories and puts them "into" your DNA as it produces more.

Perhaps not entirely implausible, but it seem to be a more complicated way of explaining it, not to mention it causing problems such as lacking female genetic memories.

caswallawn_2k7
01-17-2010, 06:20 AM
the theory behind it no imprinting onto egg's is all your memories are stored in your brain, your DNA wouldn't need to store your own memories, but when the man passes on his seed the new cells would have the memory imprinted into it at creation to pass on some form of memory to the next generation and becomes part of the DNA of the new child.

if you work on the theory that every strand of your own DNA updates as and when you get memories your DNA would be constantly changing and that would cause problems and this is the only way a woman's eggs could ever get genetic memory from a woman.

so in the long run the male reproductive cells are the only ones that could theoretically hold the life experience info as they are constantly being created, so a gene could cause a imprint of your memory to be wrote from your brain to the new DNA, the previous ancestor memories would already be in the DNA so they would just keep passing down the line.

but then you have the complex bit of half your DNA comes from your mother and half from your father, so for the generic memory to keep going it would need to be passed on by both the X and Y cells, meaning while a woman would be a generation skip but she could still pass on the data from previous ancestors other wise the entire line would need to be from father to son, and a unbroken chain of males over hundreds/thousands of years would be hard to find.

ShadowriverUB
01-17-2010, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and a unbroken chain of males over hundreds/thousands of years would be hard to find. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Every human got unbroken chain of father and mothers, but it would be hard to find line that contain assassins.

DLTyrus
01-17-2010, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the theory behind it no imprinting onto egg's is all your memories are stored in your brain, your DNA wouldn't need to store your own memories, but when the man passes on his seed the new cells would have the memory imprinted into it at creation to pass on some form of memory to the next generation and becomes part of the DNA of the new child.

if you work on the theory that every strand of your own DNA updates as and when you get memories your DNA would be constantly changing and that would cause problems and this is the only way a woman's eggs could ever get genetic memory from a woman.

so in the long run the male reproductive cells are the only ones that could theoretically hold the life experience info as they are constantly being created, so a gene could cause a imprint of your memory to be wrote from your brain to the new DNA, the previous ancestor memories would already be in the DNA so they would just keep passing down the line.

but then you have the complex bit of half your DNA comes from your mother and half from your father, so for the generic memory to keep going it would need to be passed on by both the X and Y cells, meaning while a woman would be a generation skip but she could still pass on the data from previous ancestors other wise the entire line would need to be from father to son, and a unbroken chain of males over hundreds/thousands of years would be hard to find. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still find it less logical from both a scientific and a story telling point of view to make it work that you need to create "new DNA" to imprint your memory on it, rather than just having all your memories stored into your DNA as they happen.

In fact, just because sperm is constantly created doesn't mean that DNA is, it is just produced and contains your DNA, there is no "DNA creation process" when sperm is made or else we'd have been pouring money into the science behind that in order to be able to create DNA in a lab, which we can't do, we can only (in theory) modify it, not create new stuff.

So, yeah, still going with the theory that all of your DNA holds all of your memories and ancestors memories at any one time, including women and their eggs.