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UncleReiben
12-03-2004, 06:27 PM
I wondered if I'd ever see this plane flyable in a game... I've never even seen it modelled before but...

the 8 Gun nose kit would be so awesome to put on a B-25 as a low level attack aircraft

http://www.photohome.com/pictures/aircraft-pictures/bombers/pbj-b-25-mitchell-1a.jpg

since the B-25 has been made flyable in PF, I was hoping in the future a hard nosed 25 would become flyable, and maybe with a little luck it could be this monster.

What do you guys think?

lkemling
12-03-2004, 06:43 PM
Might As well throw in the 75mm well your at it!!

Arm_slinger
12-03-2004, 07:18 PM
now that i like !!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ooooleg....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AlmightyTallest
12-03-2004, 07:34 PM
Since the new patch, Oleg and his team made it so that you can suppress fire from enemy shipping. That B-25J strafer version would be great to have as a flyable for that kind of work.

My personal choice would be a flyable hard nosed B-25H, which had 8 .50cal in the nose and side of the nose, with a 75mm cannon for anti-ship/anti-airfield work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b25h-3.jpg

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b25h-4.jpg

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b25h-5.jpg

Fritzofn
12-03-2004, 08:12 PM
the J model, apart from the 8 in the nose, 4 on the sides, i also belive they could lock the top turret in a frontal firing position, bringing a total of 14 * 12,7mm guns, now...i wouldent like to stay in the way of that, in any plane.....

LeadSpitter_
12-03-2004, 10:51 PM
the cockpits are identical just the H and c have a armor plate over the left hand bottom glass frame.

I myself would love to see the b25j with the 12 forward firing .50cals and it should be a somewhat simple task on making them all flyable but then fm which would be some work.

Well in hopes of them all becoming flyable bumb and the b25j hardnose

stansdds
12-04-2004, 03:59 AM
The upper turret in both the H and J models could be locked forward to add two more 50 caliber machine guns to the forward firing armament.

Arm_slinger
12-04-2004, 07:22 AM
Can anyone shed some light on the other B25's we were told were coming, but were taken out?

I'm with lead though- as man B-25s as possible :P

Tater-SW-
12-04-2004, 08:45 AM
Yeah, as much as I want to see the other B-25s, the gun-nose J would be an easy variant to make since from an internal standpoint it involves deleteing the nose position, and the external changes are slight. It's be nice even without the ability to lock the turret and fire from the pilot's position.

tater

XyZspineZyX
12-04-2004, 05:07 PM
Man, I'd love to fly both of these... 12 gun J and 75mm "flying tank" H.

Strafing ships with that 75mm would be loads of fun.

x__CRASH__x
12-06-2004, 02:27 AM
The he|| with that! I'd DF that bad boy!! What loads of fun an all B-25J DF server would be!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

matthewlue
12-06-2004, 02:31 AM
with the 75mm onboard..... it should no longer called bomber.....it is a GUNSHIP!!!!

The_Great_Stonk
12-06-2004, 06:42 AM
freakin flying arty death from above is that that bad boy is... just strafe the contol tower/bridge of an enemy ship with one of those things and say good bye...

Krakkers
12-07-2004, 08:30 AM
ok, not trying to incite a riot here but dare I point out that both these versions of the B-25 are available in CFS3? I have to admit I prefer flying the B-25 in il2fb/aep/pf

just pointing it out

Daiichidoku
12-07-2004, 09:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
The he|| with that! I'd DF that bad boy!! What loads of fun an all B-25J DF server would be!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


hehehe I already DF with the B 25 J! 5 foward 50s are enoiugh, and if you ride the nose gunner position instead of the pilot, you get his extra 50 to add for 6 50s, not to mention the AI gunners...

I isually wait until after loosing my bombload to DF, but I have taken her up sans bobms just to DF

Have done ok, too, most ppl will flub the Mitchell and ignore it in a DF...bad mistake! lol...I have even DF a Hellcat 1v1, and won!...ok, amybe the Hellcat pilot wasnt to good, but I was still impressed with myself lol

Philipscdrw
12-07-2004, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krakkers:
ok, not trying to incite a riot here but dare I point out that both these versions of the B-25 are available in CFS3? I have to admit I prefer flying the B-25 in il2fb/aep/pf

just pointing it out <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But CFS3 doesn't have any of the other cool planes that PF does...

brasil66
12-07-2004, 10:36 AM
From what I've read, there were quite a few field mod variants of the B25. Gen Kearney had a specialist who did these things as there wasnt much support coming from Washington.
The 75mm version was a field mod and after some trials it was rarely used in actual combat. The 75mm just wasnt very useful, accurate to be worth the weight tradeoff.

Still...it would be cool to have that variant.

AlmightyTallest
12-07-2004, 01:03 PM
Info I saw said that the B-25H was manufactured right from the factory with the 75mm cannon and machine guns. There's a great report from the crew of a B-25H from the 345th bomb group in the histroical book "Warpath across the Pacific" where they demonstrated that the 75mm cannon was very accurate when used correctly.

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/reviews/warpath.html

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-bi.html

And a cool site to see videos of B-25G's using their 75mm cannon can be found here, among other intersting info:

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/B-25.html

Wondering why the B-25H with 75mm was such an effective weapon?? It was Radar sighted!! It's in the Warpath Across the Pacific book, but also at this link:

http://www.riemarfamily.com/legion%20of%20merit%20recommendations.html


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Realizing that the operational capabilities of the B-25 airplane equipped with the 75mm cannon could be fully exploited only by a complete redesign of the sighting system, Major Riemar undertook and pushed to completion a complete new development in radar sighting for use with this weapon. The new system, designed, developed, tested and proved in combat by Major Riemar, with the concurrence of interested operating force commanders, became the basis by which the Army Air Forces were able to use to its fullest extent the new and important development of the heavy cannon-airplane combination.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Further down that document is this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> c. Major Riemar undertook and pushed to completion a restudy of all the factors entering into the hitherto unsolved problem of firing large caliber cannon from aircraft. This necessitated the adaptation to the 75mm cannon mechanism of equipment, which previously had been used for completely different purposes. The first stop in this highly technical and involved process was the adaptation of the SCR-726 automatic range unit to the B-25 airplane, which adaptation had been completed by this officer by October 1943. At this same time, Major Riemar recommended that a sight be adapted to the SCR-726. Major Riemar then designed and constructed this new sight, which he then tested and recommended for installation in all B-25H airplanes. Major Riemar then suggested that the SCR-726 be modified by removing the range unit and providing an M scope. A sight modified along these lines was built under the supervision of Major Riemar to operate with the modified SCR-726. In May 1944, Recommendation for Award of the Legion of Merit to Maj. Paul J. Riemar.

(Page 2)

Major Riemar was ordered to the China Theater with two airplanes to demonstrate this new device. Major Riemar flew three combat Missions with the Fourteenth Air Force in the course of which he operated the radar equipment and destroyed nine enemy surface ships. The order of accuracy provided by this weapon led to a request from General Chennault for additional units, which were used with excellent results by the Fourteenth Air Force up to the conclusion of hostilities.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The only reason they started getting rid of the 75mm cannon B-25's is because they ran out of shipping and targets that would merit that kind of firepower later in the war. They were very effective weapons though and did ruin many a ships days, a few destroyers and even a cruiser's day were ruined as well. Don't forget the multitude of Japanese airfield attacked by this plane too.

Neato stuff huh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

icrash
12-07-2004, 02:20 PM
I think the H had a lighter 75mm cannon than the G besides the radar thing.

AlmightyTallest
12-07-2004, 02:25 PM
icrash, your correct.


from this link: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-bi.html

The best known example are variants of the B-25 Mitchell medium bomber. The B-25G carried a 75mm M4 gun, and the B-25H switched to the T13E1. The M4 was an army weapon, light and compact enough to be installed in the nose of a B-25. The T13E1 was a lightened version, more adapted to aircraft installations. The weapon was effective against small vessels, but because it was manually loaded only a few rounds could be fired during an attack. Near the end of the war suitable targets became scarce, and the 75mm gun was often replaced by additional .50 machineguns.

icrash
12-07-2004, 06:19 PM
I have a book on the '25 that goes through everything on each model. It has a pic of a destroyer that got jumped by a group of '25s one of which had the cannon. Thing looked like a floating junkyard when they got through with it. I'll see if I can post it here in the next couple of days.

AlmightyTallest
12-07-2004, 07:13 PM
Sounds good icrash, please post them when you get the chance. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Any chance you have any info or photographs of the cockpits of the various B-25 models? Perhaps it's not out of reasoning that the other models could be made flyable later for PF. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

From what I have read about this radar in the H model is that it was called an "M" scope.

It looked like this:

---------------------------

When it picked up a ship it looked somethinglike this:



--------/\--------------

The bigger the ship, the higher and larger the "bump" on the scope, and as you got closer to it, the bump would slide toward the left of the screen.

You could tell the range of the "bump" because the scope had a range meter below the lines. So for example at the left hand of the scope was say, 100 yards. On the far right of the scope was 2000 yards. So they could tell the contact was about 1000 yards away in this example. I'll have to look at Warpath again to see the description of it, it was very intersting how they were able to make this plane so accurate with a 75mm cannon.

x__CRASH__x
12-07-2004, 08:03 PM
If you could get me the nomenclature for the radar, I can see what kind of data I can find.

Waldo Pepper has some great information for the SCR-720a, used by the P-61B/C Black Widow. But that probably won't ever get modeled, unfortunately. It's shown me some resources to find information on radars, in case Oleg wants to incorporate a radar picture in with the B-25.

Tater-SW-
12-07-2004, 08:54 PM
I talked to a PBJ driver I met when a B-25 was parked out at the airport (selling rides, if it had been a year or two later I would have taken a hop) who mentioned flying low level at night with radar, and anti-ship rockets (tiny tim?). Said they'd set up several miles away and make a radar guided run, and shoot the missile like an aerial torpedo.

tater

AlmightyTallest
12-07-2004, 09:22 PM
Tater, the reports I have and the pictures in Warpath show that B-25H's carried the 5" rockets like the Corsair and Hellcat, I think it carried 8. But no Tiny Tim's that I know of.

CRASH, sounds good, here's what I found.

The first stop in this highly technical and involved process was the adaptation of the SCR-726 automatic range unit to the B-25 airplane, which adaptation had been completed by this officer by October 1943. At this same time, Major Riemar recommended that a sight be adapted to the SCR-726. Major Riemar then designed and constructed this new sight, which he then tested and recommended for installation in all B-25H airplanes. Major Riemar then suggested that the SCR-726 be modified by removing the range unit and providing an M scope. A sight modified along these lines was built under the supervision of Major Riemar to operate with the modified SCR-726.

Very good site, but here are PHOTOS of the B-25 M Scope, and exactly how it operates!! please read it here:

http://www.riemarfamily.com/falcon%20in%20action.html

from above, but check out the photos and graphs at that site!!:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Not long ago the fixed 75mm cannon, in the nose of the B-25H, was regarded as a handy anti-shipping weapon that ought to be handier. With a range of over 5000 yards, the B-25H and it€s 763 lb. cannon represented a unit of highly mobile artillery that could stay clear of the light flak thrown up by Jap shipping while hammering away at the target.

But the cannon had no way of getting accuracy at long range; instead it had to be fired on the optical judgment of the pilots, which is a particularly tough ASV assignment. As a result, B-25H pilots worked mostly at short distances where optical range errors were small but the danger of getting shot down high. What was needed was something to give range data to the gunsight so that the necessary superelevation correction, allowing for the gravity drop of the 15-lb. projectiles, could be accurately applied.

The answer was AN/APG-13 (Falcon), radar range finder introduced early in 1944.* Falcon eliminates guesswork all the way from 5100 down to 300 yards, keeps the gunsight continuously corrected for range.

It turns out that pilots take readily to Falcon, and ring up good scores with little or no training in 75mm firing. Their performance isn't surprising, since their job,--providing the gunsight is fed correct data by the radar operator sitting alongside--is stripped down to flying so that the hairlines in the sight window are properly positioned on the target and then pushing the firing button as fast as the cannon is loaded.

*AN/APG-13 was the crash-built, pre-production Falcon; test data mentioned in this report refer to that. The production model, incorporating several refinements, but essentially the same equipment, is designated ANIAPG-13A.

Falcon now has been theater tested by the 5th, 13th and 14th Air Forces. Only the 14th was able to give it a real workout. Its performance in China (mainly along the Yangtze) resulted in a heavy requirement, fulfillment of which has been affected by the critical China base problem, though Jap river traffic still offers targets from existing westward bases. The 5th and 13th just didn't have the shipping to pit it against. But a Marine squadron fitted with Falcon now is in the Pacific and 6 more will follow.

The fact that the Japs have taken to using small, flimsy cargo vessels in substantial numbers (partly for reasons of cargo dispersal, partly because of the increasing dearth of larger ships) gives the B-25H 75mm Falcon team added value. Against light shipping the 1.5 lbs. of TNT in the 15 lb. projectile is powerful enough to kill. It isn't enough to hurt a heavily constructed vessel or a warship. And in comparison, the 500-lb. bomb dropped by an LAB B-24 carries 250 lbs. of explosive. That may be why the 5th Air Force sees the Falcon-fitted B-25H as best suited for armed reconnaissance.

Another possibility for Falcon is its adaptation for 105mm cannon in the A-26, which would require an increase in the radar sweep to 12,000 yards or more.

The theater tests have proved Falcon inept against most land targets because the rough terrain often encountered in Jap warfare doesn't allow good target discrimination at ranges above 1500 yards. But a "range-over-land" development (Vulture) is under way which may see the equipment modified to give range data against tanks, motor vehicles, trains, ammunition dumps and other non-isolated land targets.

Falcon is just one of 10 or more airborne fire control radars on their way into operation. It is the first scheduled for extensive use, with both Army and Navy participating. Others, however, are fast following. AN/APG-15, a combined ARO and AGS type (see page 18) for the B-29 tail turret, has been delivered to the theater in small quantities and should be in use about the time this issue is being read. AN/APG-5, similar to Falcon but needing no radar operator, will soon be used in bomber turrets to feed range to computing sights. Additional systems are being designed and built for tail defense of various aircraft, for use with fighter computing sights, for blind fire control in the Black Widow. Most of these are more complex and weigh more than Falcon (a 100 baby). In return they handle in reported complex assignments. They will be reported on in an early issue; for pictures of 2 of them click here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



More info and pictures on how to operate the B-25H Radar and Cannon here:

http://www.riemarfamily.com/falcon%20in%20action%20page%202.html

And more here, both pics and details of B-29, B-25H and B-17 Radar sights.

http://www.riemarfamily.com/falcon%20in%20action%20page%203.html


Guys, perhaps we should get this info to Oleg, or the Netwings guys. The B-25H as a flyable would be amazing fun if we get this detail into it.

A.K.Davis
12-07-2004, 11:23 PM
PBJs carried Tiny Tims.

not so tiny... (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.chinalakealumni.org/photogallery/photo1945/PBJ-1H_2-Tiny-Tim_Harvey-Field.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.chinalakealumni.org/1945.htm&h=75&w=100&sz=3&tbnid=gZHswYErXi8J:&tbnh=57&tbnw=76&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522PBJ%2522%2Band%2B%2522Tiny%2BTim %2522%26svnum%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff% 26sa%3DN)

Phil_C
12-08-2004, 01:18 AM
ANYTHING with a cannon in it is mint! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

icrash
12-08-2004, 08:41 PM
My laptop/photobucket/me are having issues http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. What I am trying to upload are.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/tinytim.bmp

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/b25hpit.bmp


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/tincan1.bmp


There was a set up were the B25 carried four 3packs of 4.5 rockets. One pack under each wing and one pack on each side of fuselage.

AlmightyTallest
12-08-2004, 08:57 PM
icrash, take your time, I'd like to see the photos, they all sound pretty interesting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also, guys, we might get our wish for a future flyable B-25J strafer or even an H. I guess there's no promises, but if they have the info there's a chance it could come for PF later on if a modeler is interested in working on that plane.

If you guys have cockpit photos and other interior details of the different models of B-25 that you can share, you may want to see this thread:

http://www.netwings.org/dcforum/DCForumID43/1300.html

Also, A.K. Davis, excellent find!! I never knew they could carry Tiny Tims lol. I posted a lot of cockpit photos from a PBJ-1H at the link above at Netwings, perhaps you could find more info about that aircraft carrying Tiny Tims for a loadout? Maybe they will model a PBJ-1H with the right info.

A.K.Davis
12-08-2004, 09:24 PM
I think we'll be lucky if we even get a B-25C. Not sure why no gun-nose J, though. Different cockpit?

AlmightyTallest
12-09-2004, 12:21 AM
A.K. Davis, I think your correct on the cockpits being different. We have to find the differences so the modelers can compare and create accurate ones to the exact type of aircraft being modeled.

Gibbage was specifically asking me for B-25G and H cockpits if I could find them, and to see the difference between them and the B-25C and J.

I found the J and H cockpit photos, but I'm having a heck of a time with the C and G info. I have to find that pilots manual for the B-25 I have, I think it's for either the A or the C version.

At any rate, couldn't hurt to pass on some of the pics of this plane, it may get modeled if the right info gets to the right people.

icrash, just noticed you got the photos working http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Those are really good, I like that destroyer pic that has handwriting that a 75mm struck the stack on that destroyer. In fact you have a pic of the cannoneers station looking toward the cockpit on a B-25H as well.

And there's the second pic of a PBJ-1H carrying or firing a Tiny Tim.. Way cool, thanks for the pics. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

IL2-chuter
12-09-2004, 02:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fritzofn:
the J model, apart from the 8 in the nose, 4 on the sides, i also belive they could lock the top turret in a frontal firing position, bringing a total of 14 * 12,7mm guns, now...i wouldent like to stay in the way of that, in any plane..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't know about other Groups, but the AirApaches removed the sidepack guns almost immediately on the 8-gun nose versions. On almost every single picture I've seen of one you can see where the sidepacks were. Too much weight and drag for the overkill, I guess.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

icrash
12-09-2004, 12:43 PM
I'll post a pic of a b25c cockpit. It isn't the greatest pic cause the pilot & copilot are sitting in it. I'll try to post the one of the 4.5 inch rockets.

AlmightyTallest
12-11-2004, 05:35 PM
Looking forward to seeing the B-25C cockpit photo icrash, any chance you have a pic of a B-25G and B-25H cockpit also?

icrash
12-11-2004, 06:02 PM
Here is the C's cockpit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/b25cpit.bmp

I don't have any of the others. I've been thinking about giving Zenith Books a ring and getting one on the '25. It's supposed to be a walk-around type thing with lots of pics.

GT182
12-11-2004, 06:40 PM
The B-25H and J2 nose were the first prototypes of "Puff the Magic Dragon" for the US. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

AlmightyTallest
12-11-2004, 10:14 PM
GT182, I think your right about the H and J Mitchell's being the first large gunships for the U.S. They certainly had impressive firepower. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for that pic icrash, with pilot and copilot in that photo, you can see how cramped the B-25 was. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here's another interesting link you guys may enjoy, I used it for reference material for the Netwings modelers, but it's an interesting read about the Marine unit that used B-25 strafers.

Just click on the links to the left of the page below, and the aircraft names to get more info about each version and what they could do.

http://www.vmb-613.com/aircraft.html