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chaikanut
12-20-2004, 11:56 AM
I have FB, AEP and PF and they are frankly the best simulators ever. However, I have found gunnery frustrating right from the start. It is very hard to hold the crosshair steady over a still or turning target, it bobs up and down at the slightest touch. From what I have seen this is due to the constant and very precise trimming that aircraft need to have. On top of that all the trim input is for some reason delayed. Is it possible for an optional autotrim function to be added, or at least to somehow blunt the trim needed. Also, for those of us who dont have rudder pedals, it is hard to yaw properly when turning and doing deflection shots. An automatic yaw function for when the airplane is turning would really help.

VW-IceFire
12-20-2004, 12:06 PM
If its sensitivity that is bothering you, head into the control panel for the joystick. You can set the level of sensitivity for the stick in a variety of ways. Its fairly in-depth so this may help.

Trim is a touchy issue. People were abusing the way that trim was used in the game to achieve aerobatic feats that were simply not possible in real or normal sim conditions. So, trim is now delayed by a second or so. I find it doesn't bother me much. No WWII plane had auto-trim so none of them will get it (I think the modern day F-15C's have it - but apparently most Russian planes still do not).

I've got a rudder built into my joystick. Its a twist axis...works quite well. Other sticks have rockers that give you control over it. Otherwise, you'll need to find something that will make rudder work easy for you. Again, auto rudder would be like auto-trim. Doesn't exist for WWII planes. I would see it being very annoying and deterimental.

Certainly, no rudder control and not trimming your plane for the proper speed would be a problem for aim. You'll need to sort these control issues out to get the best experience possible.

I'm still fine tuning my control scheme almost two years later. Its what sim pilots do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

chaikanut
12-20-2004, 12:35 PM
I know that autotrim is not realistic. The majority of features of a flight simulator by default are not realistic. For example, the sticks of ww2 airplanes were much longer from the game sticks and gave control orders of magnitude better. At the very least, we should have a trim indicator number on the virtual HUD to show how much negative/positive trim we need for said velocity.

I have found that trim is THE problem for aiming, unless i tap the trim buttons every split second during a loop. If trim is too positive (up) the airplane jerks violently when I pull, and is sluggish when I push and vice versa.

Zen--
12-20-2004, 01:41 PM
Definately sounds like a stick sensitivity issue. You might try these stick settings:

[rts_joystick]


X=13 21 28 39 53 65 77 88 96 100
Y=22 28 37 45 54 65 77 88 97 100
Z=35 41 48 56 67 76 82 89 95 100

(Replace the values in your conf.ini which is located at C:\Program Files\Ubi Soft\IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles)

Hopefully you will find some improvement in your control of the stick with these settings, I took them from CrazyIvan a ways back and have been really satisfied with them (thanks Ivan http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Also choice of physical joystick is important in this sim because obviously not all feel the same. I've had 7 different sticks until I finally found one that suited me personally (CH Fighterstick USB) but I'm a stickler for detail considering how much time I spend on the sim. If I were more causual I would have probably learned to live with my first or second stick and been ok with that. I mention it because in my experience no two sticks are the same and sometimes just changing to a different one makes all the difference in playability.


Many joysticks let you set axis sensitivity curves as part of their calibration/customization features, you might look into your own stick software to see if this is possible.



Most of all, don't give up. As Ice mentioned it can take a very long time to get used to gunnery and I myself have spent years getting the setup that I like best also, but again thats mostly due to how picky I am more so than having to fight against the sim itself.


Goodluck


<S>

BBB_Hyperion
12-20-2004, 08:47 PM
[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 1 3 7 15 25 35 50 66 84 100 0
1Y=1 1 2 5 11 24 36 48 60 80 100 0
1RZ=0 1 2 4 8 18 35 51 66 84 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

Here are mine .

The Idea is to have maximum precision at little movement while having less at higher values. Looks little different on each stick but principle should be a exponential increasing movement.

Aerial gunnery is 90 percent instinct and 10 percent aim.
Captain Frederick C. Libby, RFC
First American to Shoot Down 5 Enemy Aircraft, WW-I
24 Victories (10 as Observer, 14 as Pilot)

Regards,
Hyperion

chaikanut
12-21-2004, 03:48 AM
Hello.

I have tried Hyperions settings along with some modification of mine: I calibrated the joystick to have more sensitivity when pushing the stick. Now controls are uniform and smooth, I have never enjoyed shooting down bombers with high deflection so much. Thanks all for the replies. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Fehler
12-21-2004, 04:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
Definately sounds like a stick sensitivity issue. You might try these stick settings:

[rts_joystick]


X=13 21 28 39 53 65 77 88 96 100
Y=22 28 37 45 54 65 77 88 97 100
Z=35 41 48 56 67 76 82 89 95 100

(Replace the values in your conf.ini which is located at C:\Program Files\Ubi Soft\IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles)

Hopefully you will find some improvement in your control of the stick with these settings, I took them from CrazyIvan a ways back and have been really satisfied with them (thanks Ivan http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Also choice of physical joystick is important in this sim because obviously not all feel the same. I've had 7 different sticks until I finally found one that suited me personally (CH Fighterstick USB) but I'm a stickler for detail considering how much time I spend on the sim. If I were more causual I would have probably learned to live with my first or second stick and been ok with that. I mention it because in my experience no two sticks are the same and sometimes just changing to a different one makes all the difference in playability.


Many joysticks let you set axis sensitivity curves as part of their calibration/customization features, you might look into your own stick software to see if this is possible.



Most of all, don't give up. As Ice mentioned it can take a very long time to get used to gunnery and I myself have spent years getting the setup that I like best also, but again thats mostly due to how picky I am more so than having to fight against the sim itself.


Goodluck


<S> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All this yap, and he still shoots like Mr. Magoo!

Well, Magoo sometimes hits what he is looking at...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lub ya Zen...

Zen--
12-21-2004, 09:26 AM
Hey! I resemble that remark!

http://209.163.147.67/zen/files/zen/magoo_5.jpg

LeadSpitter_
12-21-2004, 11:00 AM
use all 100s for all inputs you will have a huge advantage over everyone once you get use to it. If your having a problem with your rudder swaying from a twist rudder still add a 0 for the first rudder input if that doesnt solve it try another 0 for next field. Hopefully this will remove the sway you are having which maybe why your having the problem as many stick get loose or warn out pots.

chaikanut
12-21-2004, 03:52 PM
Good, about time the trolls showed up... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

(fehler)


Still, what about that trim indicator? Can it be done?, it would be neat, especially for the jet aircraft.

Hey leadspitter, how do you manage with all settings to 100, you must be crazy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Do you use alot of smoothing?

This Mortal Coil
12-21-2004, 04:06 PM
- Master trimming on the fly.
- Control your airspeed
- The better the stick, the easier it is to accurately stay on target.

WWMaxGunz
12-21-2004, 04:18 PM
I ran pitch at 100's with major (40%) filter until I upgraded videocard and ram, then
it's 'no way' for those settings even with the same POS stick. So what works for one
or many is no guarantee for the next player. I'll be going with what Zen posted just
to try as now it's at 0, 10, 20, ... 100 with filter at 10% working better for me but
not to where I won't experiment.

You can get a trim indicator but I think it only tells you where trim is set, not where
it is actually at during the delayed movement. I've tried about trim, as have others
and barring a major change at 1C it will not be changed. Getting/making an indicator
involves using devicelink and an external program to put one on the screen. I don't
use any of that during play as I can't afford the resource loss (during playback I have)
but others may help you there.

Tips on shooting that avoid so much bobbing: Keep trimmed or pre-trim for the speed you
will be shooting at --and/or-- keep your speed close to where you are trimmed.

Note some planes will be more stable over wider speed ranges at different speeds in
general (at alts, but IAS takes care of *most* of that) but that should be true where
the Center of Lift isn't so close to Center of Mass and the lever arm to the tail is
longer in relation AFAIK... and now I am sure to be corrected at least in part on that!

prop-head
12-21-2004, 04:21 PM
For the first few months with FB I too had a hard time with gunnery. It took a while to fiddle with the stick sensitivity settings within the game until things came together. Initially I tried to overcome the difficulty by slowing the passage of time so that I could "catch up" with the swift action. Nowadays I never have to go slower than real time, unless I want to savour the havoc and destruction I'm wreaking. So, my recommendations:

1) Set the deadband to zero, especially if your stick's still tight (little or no slop due to wear). But even with my old, sloppy, worn out FLCS-16 I retained a zero deadband always.

2) Put the most effort into devising the best sensitivity profile for the elevator, or pitch axis. I prefer small values for the near-center position (about 10 percent), as I like having fine control, and hate riding a bucking bronco. I have a linear slope from there to the maximum of 100 at full deflection. I didn't want to try anything fancy like a variable slope, as I feared the resulting non-linear action could lead to overcontrolling.

3) Try fooling around with the filter settings. If your stick etc. has worn, spikey potentiometers, a small amount of filtering can help, as it averages out the high frequency "noise" generated by bad pots. But be careful! Too much filtering will induce a delayed action, and you'll find yourself always overcorrecting because of the lag.

4) While adjusting sensitivities/filtering, observe carefully the action of the graphical stick position indicators. One (the red, if memory serves) shows the actual, unfiltered output from the stick, and the other (green) shows the value sent to the game, after any sensitivity/filter settings have been applied. Move the stick about in both axes, both slowly and quickly, and in variuos combinations of directions. You want crisp response, but with little if any "jiggling" of the green indicator.

5) Log lots of hours in combat. Part of the learning process involves time spent and educating your hand. And just as I did in the ol' days, do slow down time before blasting away, so as to see if you have the desired control while chasing the bandit. In fact, because of the induced shake that guns can impart to some crates, first confirm that you can keep your target in the gunsight for any period of time without firing. The continuously varying control inputs necessitated by your victim's gyrations demand the greatest skill on your part, and properly "tuned" hardware in your fist.

6) For a while anyway, set your trim once only before going into combat-- you shouldn't normally reset trim while in the middle of a furball. I set elevator trim so as to maintain pitch attitude at a speed a bit higher than than expected during combat. When speed drops below this of course I have to apply a bit more back pressure, but when maneuvering in combat I'm almost always pulling back anyway. And when in a speed-building chase I don't have to push forward *too* much to maintain a bead on the target (unless in a screaming dive, etc.) I have enough to do in combat besides tweaking trim settings. By the way, I've set the "throttle" wheel on my CH Fighterstick to elevator trim -- I have the Pro Throttle for givin' her the gas.

This business of good stick response is a very personal thing -- note that recommendations on sensitivity so far have run the gamut from 10 to 100 percent! Just keep experimenting 'til you get the results that feel good to you.

VW-IceFire
12-21-2004, 04:21 PM
Trimming is as much an art as is gunnery. I'm usually fairly close at adapting to trim changes as necessary. So when I go to gun for a plane, I'm worried about deflection and not trim.

Glad that the changed settings helped you and your gunnery. Just requires some tweaking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F16_Sulan
12-22-2004, 02:41 AM
I find my left hand allmost constantly on the trim wheel in a dogfight, energy/BnZ or angles/TnB...

It´s awfully frustrating to trim with buttons I think, I traded my throttle-axis for trim...

chaikanut
12-23-2004, 07:14 AM
Hi

I have read your recommendations and they have helped me in my aiming. However, there is still some frustation over the trimming, which unless it is constant it makes aiming very shaky. I imagine that the majority of you would scoff at an autotrim function, even if optional, so I will ask again: is it possible to have numbers on the trim bar that will indicate any positive/negative trim for level flight of said speed for rudder/ ailerons/ elevator, or just the elevator? The numbers should dissapear along with the speed bar from the realism settings. If it is doable, is there a chance to incorporate it in some following patch? I would like some feedback on it, preferably from a develloper. For me, deflection shooting is art, constant trimming is a pain.

VF-29_Sandman
12-24-2004, 09:46 AM
trim changes all the time. what will be nice and level at say, cruising speed, will turn into extremely nose-up attitude in a high speed z/b dive and vice versa in the elevator area especially. the rudder and wings dont seem to change all that much for me anyway, but it will be easier to handle having the rudder/wings trimmed out on the ball.