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major_setback
03-01-2006, 05:30 AM
The last Sea Harrier has flown:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_...00/nb_wm_4761130.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4760000/newsid_4761100/nb_wm_4761130.stm)

major_setback
03-01-2006, 05:30 AM
The last Sea Harrier has flown:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_...00/nb_wm_4761130.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4760000/newsid_4761100/nb_wm_4761130.stm)

CV-707
03-01-2006, 05:35 AM
Bad news! Great plane!

JG53Frankyboy
03-01-2006, 05:38 AM
so the RN carriers will be from now on "only" equipted with Harrier GR.7/9 from the RAF ?
no Radar equipted Fighters on board anymore http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
dont tell that Argentinia ! (<- no offence http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

whiteladder
03-01-2006, 05:41 AM
What is worse is that Royal Navy air defense is now back to a pre Falkland war levels http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">so the RN carriers will be from now on "only" equipted with Harrier GR.7/9 from the RAF ?
no Radar equipted Fighters on board anymore
dont tell that Argentinia ! (&lt;- no offence ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not until (optimistically) 2012, more likely 2015 when CVF and JSF come online. That is withstanding delays, cuts, change of Goverments, defense reviews etc etc!

JG53Frankyboy
03-01-2006, 05:50 AM
not a good time for Naval jetoperations it seems . the german Navy lost also its last Tornado Wing some time ago.

jds1978
03-01-2006, 06:00 AM
Last flight of the Tomcat for USN recently

vocatx
03-01-2006, 06:08 AM
Every time I read an article such as the one about the Tomcat being retired, or the Sea Harrier, I can't help but think about the state of preparedness most Western countries were in about seventy years ago. I know a lot of things have changed, and the technologies are not even comparable, but it just seems that history is repeating itself, and the stupid politicians haven't learned a thing.

Viper2005_
03-01-2006, 06:19 AM
Out to Lunch, please don't attack the Fleet until 2015. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I just hope that they store them until JSF becomes operational rather than scrapping them immediately, so that if we have any trouble in the South Atlantic (or elsewhere) in the next decade or so we can call upon them again.

My faith in the concept of a coalition providing Naval air cover to the Fleet whilst it fights to to protect British Interests is rather less firm than my faith in Father Christmas...

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-01-2006, 07:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vocatx:
Every time I read an article such as the one about the Tomcat being retired, or the Sea Harrier, I can't help but think about the state of preparedness most Western countries were in about seventy years ago. I know a lot of things have changed, and the technologies are not even comparable, but it just seems that history is repeating itself, and the stupid politicians haven't learned a thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish I could disagree with you! Apparently the PAAMS (Type 45) will provide sufficently adequate fleet defense to nullify air attack. I'm sure the Admiralty was saying the exact same thing about HACS in 1931 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-01-2006, 07:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CV-707:
Bad news! Great plane! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazing plane! 7:1 kill ratio against F15, 27:10 against USN Agressors (F5F) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Philipscdrw
03-01-2006, 07:43 AM
Bloody stupid Labour governments. It's 1967 all over again.

Hopefully, one day we'll elect a Prime Minister from the Labour party who doesn't cause long-term damage to our armed forces. Likewise, I'd like to see a Conservative government that doesn't cause long-term damage to the domestic infrastructure (privatising transport and utilities, etc).

Sorry to go political but defence spending is political.

jds1978
03-01-2006, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Out to Lunch, please don't attack the Fleet until 2015. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I just hope that they store them until JSF becomes operational rather than scrapping them immediately, so that if we have any trouble in the South Atlantic (or elsewhere) in the next decade or so we can call upon them again.

My faith in the concept of a coalition providing Naval air cover to the Fleet whilst it fights to to protect British Interests is rather less firm than my faith in Father Christmas... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait a minute....the RN won't have a replacement for a full decade??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

planejunky
03-01-2006, 08:27 AM
BUT, we may get Rafale which is good! Good on two levels, 1) Rafale is a superb aircraft in it's own right, and 2) it means that we will be getting decent carriers to operate them from! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Airmail109
03-01-2006, 08:29 AM
Would it not be possible to modify some typhoons for naval operations? I mean what good are the new Eurofighters if they cant be operated off a carrier, considering most operations now are rapid deployement types. Or even Tornado F3s if they need an interceptor...

whiteladder
03-01-2006, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Would it not be possible to modify some typhoons for naval operations? I mean what good are the new Eurofighters if they cant be operated off a carrier, considering most operations now are rapid deployement types. Or even Tornado F3s if they need an interceptor... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Initially this was one proposal for the airwing of the CVF, but the feasiabilty study found it would be too costly to modify the design for carrier operation, plus the need and cost to equip the CVF for CTOL operations. So naval Eurofighter was deemed to be a dead duck....


But this decision is being reconsidered. While the STOVL f-35B is still the most likely candidate the UK and US have got into an arguement over technology transfer with the JSF, which means the Naval Eurofighter is again being considered. A final decision is expected mid 2006 on the choice of aircraft.

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-01-2006, 09:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by whiteladder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Would it not be possible to modify some typhoons for naval operations? I mean what good are the new Eurofighters if they cant be operated off a carrier, considering most operations now are rapid deployement types. Or even Tornado F3s if they need an interceptor... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Initially this was one proposal for the airwing of the CVF, but the feasiabilty study found it would be too costly to modify the design for carrier operation, plus the need and cost to equip the CVF for CTOL operations. So naval Eurofighter was deemed to be a dead duck....


But this decision is being reconsidered. While the STOVL f-35B is still the most likely candidate the UK and US have got into an arguement over technology transfer with the JSF, which means the Naval Eurofighter is again being considered. A final decision is expected mid 2006 on the choice of aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

After the TSR2 fiasco it would be terribly ironic if the FAA ended up having Typhoon stuffed down their throats

LUFT11_Hoflich
03-01-2006, 10:02 AM
Does the USN have something similar to the Tomcat? I mean. It can carry what? 4x2000lb bombs, not to mention the AIM-54, and has more range and it's faster than the F-18. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Guess we can compare it to the. "we don't need guns in fighters no more, we got missiles" philosophy that cracked the F-4 Phantoms.

Anyway... The F14 has and allwas wil be my favorite jet of all times http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif, no matter how many new uber stealth high-tech fighters appear in the next years.

H¶f...

berg417448
03-01-2006, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LUFT11_Hoflich:
Does the USN have something similar to the Tomcat? I mean. It can carry what? 4x2000lb bombs, not to mention the AIM-54, and has more range and it's faster than the F-18. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif



H¶f... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AIM-54 Phoenix was retired back in 2004 anyway.

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=15422

JG53Frankyboy
03-01-2006, 10:19 AM
isnt the USN using double seater F/A-18F SuperHornet in the longdistance intercept role ?

T_O_A_D
03-01-2006, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vocatx:
Every time I read an article such as the one about the Tomcat being retired, or the Sea Harrier, I can't help but think about the state of preparedness most Western countries were in about seventy years ago. I know a lot of things have changed, and the technologies are not even comparable, but it just seems that history is repeating itself, and the stupid politicians haven't learned a thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto, one just can't think of it any other way, I'm afraid.

ploughman
03-01-2006, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Out to Lunch, please don't attack the Fleet until 2015. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I just hope that they store them until JSF becomes operational rather than scrapping them immediately, so that if we have any trouble in the South Atlantic (or elsewhere) in the next decade or so we can call upon them again.


</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is more or less what they're doing, sticking them in a hangar in Yeovilton. I don't know where they'll be storing the expertise to operate them effectively though.

It's curious that the logic that made large carriers with potent airwings an imperative, after a break of nearly 35 years, also allows for the retirment of the only bespoke fixed wing naval aviation asset in Britain's inventory and the only Fleet Air Defence Fighter in Britain's inventory.

As for Type 45s, Daring'll be operational in 2009 so it won't be providing air defence for anything except a dry dock for the next few years.

It's pathetic really.

whiteladder
03-01-2006, 12:20 PM
I don`t think the they are planning to store the fa/2 in any condition that would make them available to return to service.

The basic problem is that the airframe and the engines in desperate need of refurbishment, and this hasn`t been deemed cost effective. The maintenance cost for Sea Harrier have spiralled in recent years, and with the formation of the joint Harrier force it has been seen to be un economic to keep them flying.

The obvious question is this why has the UK not leased Harrier+ from the US like the Italian navy did while they were waiting for their Harriers to be manufactured?

There would be greater commonality with the existing RAF Harriers and therefore a reduction in operating costs.