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wintergoose
06-02-2006, 12:33 AM
Used in Ju88, BF110 and other german twin nightfighters.
Cannons placed on the top of the plans pointing abouth 70 degrees forward.
Used to shoot down alied bombers.
I was searching in some old tread in this forum yesterday and found one from 2004 which said he had played "Schrage Musik" in IL2 and it also was described how to use the aiming device.
Now I have tryed every german twinengined plain but can not find that armament.
Can it have been in another SIM?? Anybody know?

wintergoose
06-02-2006, 12:33 AM
Used in Ju88, BF110 and other german twin nightfighters.
Cannons placed on the top of the plans pointing abouth 70 degrees forward.
Used to shoot down alied bombers.
I was searching in some old tread in this forum yesterday and found one from 2004 which said he had played "Schrage Musik" in IL2 and it also was described how to use the aiming device.
Now I have tryed every german twinengined plain but can not find that armament.
Can it have been in another SIM?? Anybody know?

F19_Olli72
06-02-2006, 12:56 AM
No plane in IL-2 series has Schr¤gemusik. The dude must've been confused.

Waldo.Pepper
06-02-2006, 01:11 AM
An AI Dinah has oblique firing guns.
Though in Japanese service they were not called Schrage Musik (obviously)

Maybe he was flying that? Though there would be no sight to use.

WTE_Galway
06-02-2006, 01:11 AM
post a link to the thread

major_setback
06-02-2006, 01:36 AM
I've never understood why it's always (in litterature/books) translated as 'jazz music' Surely 'schr¤ge musik' translates to 'jazz', pure and simple?

ImpStarDuece
06-02-2006, 01:38 AM
I think the derevation is that schrage = slanted

and that schrage musik = slanted music = jazz.

major_setback
06-02-2006, 01:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
I think the derevation is that schrage = slanted

and that schrage musik = slanted music = jazz. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. We (in English) don't refer to it as 'jazz music', we just refer to it as 'jazz'.

ex. "I prefer rock and roll to jazz"'. "Johnny hates jazz".

To me it sounds a lot more logical to speak of a Ju88 that was fitted with jazz, than to use the alternative 'jazz music' (which is the norm).
The word jazz alone works fine: "look out for the jazz!".

Aaron_GT
06-02-2006, 01:58 AM
As anyone who has seen Kelly's Heroes knows the Alllied equivalent was country music. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wintergoose
06-02-2006, 03:27 AM
I think I found the answer it is used in CFS1/CFS2 in a He219 who has two MK108 30 mm cannons 100 rpg pointing upwards 65 degrees.

It is a capitle in the book "Bomber Crew" by James Taylor & Martin Davidson that tells the story and how much damage the Schrage Musik did to the Bomber Co,,and. It seems to have been a verry effective combat technice.

Here is the link to the forum topic :
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=325103301

DuxCorvan
06-02-2006, 12:31 PM
I also remember that IRL, some Me 163 Komet were fitted with mortars firing upwards, that were activated by photoelectric cells. They just had to pass under an enemy bomber at full speed, for the bomber shadow to activate the weapon just against its belly.

This was simulated in old SWOTL, but it isn't in Il-2 FB and it would be a cool 'secret' weapon.

I also miss aerial fragmentation bombs with time fuses, that were used by LW fighters against dense enemy bomber formations. Not that they were very effective, but still interesting, and a historical option.

woofiedog
06-02-2006, 11:00 PM
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/images/ju88guns2.jpg
Two-gun Schr¤ge Musik installed in Ju 88G

Armament

The main armament of night-fighters were forward facing 7.9mm or 13mm machine guns and 20mm cannons, normally situated in the nose of the aircraft. How the aircraft attacked was left up to individual crews although most attacked from astern and below as German night fighters had poor downward visibility. It was also known, however, that British bombers were not well defended from attacks from below, in fact, very few had ant defence at all in this direction. Due to this gap a lot of night-fighters were fitted with Schr¤ge Musik.

This was the name given to 2 cannons pointing almost vertically up from the fuselage of the fighter, which were matched to a Revi reflector sight in the roof of the cockpit of the night-fighter. This meant that the fighter had to formate under the aircraft it was attacking then fire the cannons. This did have its dangers, however, some fighters were destroyed by the bomber it had just attacked falling on top of them, or the bomb load exploding and destroying both aircraft.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b7/Fw189_1.jpg/800px-Fw189_1.jpg
Fw 189 with single "Schr¤ge Musik" gun

When it was introduced, Schr¤ge Musik was not universally popular, particularly with the older pilots who had trained with and become accustomed to the forward firing guns.
It was popular with younger pilots, however, as many of them tended to fire their conventional weapons beyond their maximum range, therefore giving their position away. However, using Schr¤ge Musik was not all that easy especially as it was extremely difficult to stay below a bomber taking evasive action.
It should be noted that the aircraft that made up the German night-fighting force were among the most heavily armed fighters of the whole war making them an extremely effective defensive force

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/Do217N_4x_Schraege_Musik.jpg
Do 217N with 4-gun Schr¤ge Musik

Peenemunde, 17th and 18th August 1943
596 aircraft - 324 Lancasters, 218 Halifaxes, 54 Stirlings. This was the first raid in which 6 (Canadian) Group operated Lancaster aircraft. 426 Squadron dispatched 9 Mark II Lancasters, losing 2 aircraft including that of the squadron commander, Wing Commander L. Crooks, D.S.O., D.F.C., an Englishman, who was killed.

This was a special raid, which Bomber Command was ordered to carry out against the German research establishment on the Baltic coast where V-2 and V-1 rockets were being built and tested. The raid was carried out in moonlight to increase the chances of success. There were several novel features. It was the only occasion in the second half of the war when the whole of Bomber Command attempted a precision raid by night on such a small target. For the first time, there was a Master Bomber controlling a full-scale Bomber Command raid; Group Captain J. H. Searby, of 83 Squadron, 8 Group, carried out this task. There were three aiming points - the scientists and workers living quarters, the rocket factory and the experimental station - and the Pathfinders employed a special plan with crews designated as shifters, who attempted to move the marking from one part of the target to another as the raid progressed. Crews of 5 Group, bombing in the last wave of the attack, had practised the time-and-distance bombing method as an alternative method for their part in the raid.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/03/Me_110_SM.jpg/439px-Me_110_SM.jpg
Me 110 two-gun Schr¤ge Musik

The Pathfinders found Peenemunde without difficulty in the moonlight and the Master Bomber controlled the raid successfully throughout. A Mosquito diversion to Berlin drew off most of the German night-fighters for the first 2 of the raid's 3 phases. Unfortunately, the initial marking and bombing fell on a labour camp for forced workers which was situated 1.5 miles south of the first aiming point, but the Master Bomber and the Pathfinders quickly brought the bombing back to the main targets, which were all bombed successfully. 560 aircraft dropped nearly 1,800 tons of bombs; 85 per cent of this tonnage was high-explosive. The estimate has appeared in many sources that this raid set back the V-2 experimental programme by at least 2 months and reduced the scale of the eventual rocket attack. Approximately 180 Germans were killed at Peenemunde, nearly all in the workers housing estate, and 500-600 foreigners, mostly Polish, were killed in the workers camp, where there were only flimsy wooden barracks and no proper air-raid shelters.

Bomber Command's losses were 40 aircraft - 23 Lancasters, 15 Halifaxes and 2 Stirlings. This represents 6.7 per cent of the force dispatched but was judged an acceptable cost for the successful attack on this important target on a moonlit night. Most of the casualties were suffered by the aircraft of the last wave when the German night fighters arrived in force; the groups involved in this were 5 Group, which lost 17 of its 109 aircraft on the raid (14.5 per cent) and the Canadian 6 Group which lost 12 out of 57 aircraft (19.7 per cent). This was the first night on which the Germans used their new schrage Musik weapons; these were twin upward-firing cannons fitted in the cockpit of Me 110s. Two schrage Musik aircraft found the bomber stream flying home from Peenemunde and are believed to have shot down 6 of the bombers lost on the raid.

major_setback
06-03-2006, 07:06 AM
Found this:

"There was nothing new about upward-firing guns. They first appeared during WWI....
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/vick161-b.jpg ....the Vickers model 161 was built to specification F.29/27. It was an obvious dead end. The prototype flew little and reportedly fired only 24 shells. [62]

During the interbellum upward-firing guns were tried on a number of British aircraft. This was called the no-allowance method of gunsighting, because the idea was that the attacker would fly in close formation with the target, slightly below it, so that no allowance had to be made for relative speed. Specification F.29/27 called for a single-engined, single-seat fighter armed with a 1lb COW gun, angled upwards. Development of this weapon, by the Coventry Ordance Works, had continued since before WWI. At 97kg, it was relatively light for a weapon of this size. It fired 37x190 ammunition at a rate of 1.5 per second, fed from five-round clips, and had already been used on a handful of aircraft during WWI. Unfortunately, the two F.29/27 fighters were both disappointing. The Vickers F.29/27 was a pusher biplane, an obsolescent design with a bewildering array of struts and bracing wires. The Westland F.29/27 was a low-wing monoplane and looked much better, but had completely unacceptable handling characteristics.

More promising were experiments with the standard .303 Vickers and Lewis guns. In 1927 the Boulton-Paul Bittern made its first flight, a nightfighter built to specification F.27/24. The second prototype of the Bittern had vertically swivelling Lewis guns machineguns on the side of its nose, so that they could be set at an angle between 0 and 45 degrees. A ring-and-bead gunsight was to be mounted on a frame, which could be set at the same angle. But the underpowered Bittern never entered service.

A simpler approach was represented by two Bristol Bulldog biplane fighters, that were modified in 1934 with Lewis or Vickers guns mounted at the side of the cockpit, at an angle of 60 degrees up. During tests, the installation demonstrated great accuracy: Flying 100ft below their targets, the fighters scored 90% hits. However, the armament of two rifle-calibre machineguns was too weak.

One interesting aircraft, flown just before the beginning of WWII, must also be mentioned. The prototype of the Gloster F.9/37 twin-engined monoplane fighter was armed with five 20mm Hispano cannon, angled up 12 degrees. This angle was determined by practical considerations: Three of the guns were behind the cockpit, in the space originally allocated for a gun turret. They had to be angled up to clear the cockpit. It is not clear what attack mode was envisaged for this aircraft."
From http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-uf.html

major_setback
06-03-2006, 07:15 AM
Fw 190:

http://afrika-korps.de/forum/files/zellendusche_sg_116_196.jpg

In the wings!!!

http://afrika-korps.de/forum/files/f_rstersonde_sg_113_a_124.jpg

http://afrika-korps.de/forum/files/f_rstersonde_sg_113_a__787.jpg

JG52-6High
06-03-2006, 10:01 AM
Apparently the "F¶rstersonde" didn`t do to well- in order to make the magnetic contact recognise the tank below (yep, it`s "Schr¤ge Musik" down, not up, lol), the FW had to fly extremly low, and therefore would be gravely endangered by it`s own shrapnell/ the exploding tank.

Nice idea anyway.

6

major_setback
06-03-2006, 10:50 AM
It was also tried out in Havocs:

From an article that quotes Bill Gunston (author, aircraft expert, historian), this excerpt refers to use of havocs, the whole article though is well worth reading, here:
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/wesseling/wesseling_schrage_musik.htm


"Gunston notes that €œnot until well into 1944 did the RAF at last tumble to what was happening and then only by a lot of hard thinking after studying the very few bombers that had, by great good fortune, managed to break out of the rain of shells and bring back to Britain evidence of air to air strikes all at the same near vertical angle.€

He says €œI happened to be at Manston in early 1944 and woke to find a damaged Lancaster outside. One prop was feathered and there were marks of several 20mm strikes, at least one of which had gone clean through the rear fuselage. It had blown a great hole in the top and made a mess of the four ammunition belts for the rear turret, but what shocked the crew was the angle. They were Australians and seemed to think that this was renewed evidence of a Luftwaffe secret weapon; tales of strange upward firing nightfighters had begun to get about.€

€œThis strangeness was itself very strange because oblique upward firing guns had been common in WWI (see below about Captain Albert Ball), tested in several RAF aircraft between the wars and experimented with at great length with RAF nightfighters - mainly Havocs - as recently as 1941. I believe that none of the upward firing Havocs carried cannon, a typical armament being six oblique Browning .303s.€

€œAt the conclusion of apparently successful trials, a full report was written and handed to Fighter Command AOC in C. Almost the next day, he, Dowding, was replaced by Douglas. Thus nothing was done. So runs a much quoted report, but Dowding was sacked in 1940 and I am certain that the Havoc trials were not completed until much later. In any case there is still no explanation of why this promising armament should have been subsequently ignored, nor of why the adoption of the same technique by the Luftwaffe should have caused such amazement.€

JG52-6High
06-03-2006, 11:20 AM
Good find, Thnx for posting! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

woofiedog
06-03-2006, 11:55 AM
Henschel Hs 129

http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeuge/henschel/hs1292.jpg
Captured Henschel Hs 129B

Some were equipped experimentally with the SG 113A recoilless gun installation: a battery of six 75mm smooth-bore tubes, each 1.6m long, mounted in the fuselage at an angle slightly beyond the vertical to fire downwards and rearwards. The weapon was intended for use against tanks and was triggered automatically when the aircraft flew over a tank at low altitude. A total of more than 800 Hs 129 were built.

The outstanding example of the new weapons was the radically different Forstersonde SG 113A. This comprised a giant tube resembling a ship's funnel in the centre fuselage just behind the fuselage tank. Inside this were fitted six smooth-bore tubes, each 1.6 m (5 ft 3 in) long and of 77 mm calibre. The tubes were arranged to fire down and slightly to the rear, and were triggered as a single group by a photocell sensitive to the passage of a tank close beneath. Inside each tube was a combined device consisting of a 45 mm armour piercing shell (with a small high-explosive charge) pointing downwards and a heavy steel cylinder of full calibre pointing upwards. Between the two was the propellant charge, with a weak tie-link down the centre to joint the parts together. When the SG 113A was fired, the shells were driven down by their driving sabots at high velocity, while the steel slugs were fired out of the top of each tube to cancel the recoil. Unfortunately, trials at Tarnewitz Waffenprufplatz showed that the photocell system often failed to pick out correct targets.

woofiedog
06-03-2006, 12:04 PM
major_setback... Excellent posting on the two Fw-190 F8 SG116/SG113 & the WWI Birds. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

major_setback
06-03-2006, 03:14 PM
From Sim HQ:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb...._topic;f=98;t=004321 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=004321)


Picture of a reconstructed Schr¤ge gunsight:

http://members.chello.pl/a.fitt/My/He219_NASM.jpg

From the same thread:
http://krasnaya.x-y.net/images/sgn.jpg


I found this too:

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/post_war/p80/pics/p80a_mgschrage.jpg

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/post_war/p80/pics/p80a_mgfour.jpg


From : http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9htfR5M.oFEUY4AjsKjzbkF;_ylu...ar/p80/pics/pics.htm (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9htfR5M.oFEUY4AjsKjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN 0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12dpphh2p/EXP=1149455308/**http%3a//www.military.cz/usa/air/post_war/p80/pics/pics.htm)

woofiedog
06-03-2006, 03:23 PM
Ahhh... is there anyway of Having this Puppydog added to the Game! Wicked Mint! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Abbuzze
06-03-2006, 04:18 PM
First "Schr¤ge Musik" has nothing to do with Jazz! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For the P80 with the upwardfireing guns, I think the developers didn´t learn enough from captured german planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif right in front of the pilot firing such a system in the night would blind the pilot - not a good idea. There was a cause for the position of the straight foreward firing guns in the HE219.

woofiedog
06-03-2006, 05:35 PM
Oh yes, it would get a bit Bright up front... but as the song from Timbuk 3 go's, The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://henrik.net/blog/uploaded_images/050630_oxydo_break_black-grey.jpg