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View Full Version : 109 drops energy easily, anyone noticed this?



jermin122
11-11-2005, 09:13 AM
It's true that 4.02 has to some extend degraded the performence of 109's, like climb rate, turn rate, manual prop. pitch, engine management(overheat easily but cool down slowly), stableness, weapon power(hitting someone with 1 or 2 108 shots doesn't result in fatal damage. Thats no problem. But have u ever noticed that under the same turning angle(not too big), 109 drops speed much faster than any other planes. That's really not fair.

jermin122
11-11-2005, 09:13 AM
It's true that 4.02 has to some extend degraded the performence of 109's, like climb rate, turn rate, manual prop. pitch, engine management(overheat easily but cool down slowly), stableness, weapon power(hitting someone with 1 or 2 108 shots doesn't result in fatal damage. Thats no problem. But have u ever noticed that under the same turning angle(not too big), 109 drops speed much faster than any other planes. That's really not fair.

neural_dream
11-11-2005, 09:15 AM
Thanks to its design, the 109 can both slow down and immediately accelerate faster than most. That's cause it is a very draggy design, but also light. It may turn very sharply and maybe even better than conventional turners, but quickly loses energy and cannot sustain a possible initial advantage. Most people use the 109 as a BnZ plane with quite good turning abilities. Nothing unhistorical there.

carguy_
11-11-2005, 10:27 AM
Not fair?Are you a 9year old?
I mean I always had a D in physics but I know a really big part of the game`s flight model acts close to reality.

The plane wasn`t meant for constant T&B as many other planes because of factors like engine power,aerodynamics,wing shape etc.
Even if MK108 doesn`t blow the enemy plane with one shell its fatal for a fighter in 9 for every ten hits.

Bombers however,take far too many MK108 hits than in reality.

msalama
11-11-2005, 10:43 AM
BAH! My Sturmo bleeds E even easier. That's not fair.

msalama
11-11-2005, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bombers however,take far too many MK108 hits than in reality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure? I'd imagine that, say, a Fortress wouldn't be too easy to get down IRL either...

crazyivan1970
11-11-2005, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
It's true that 4.02 has to some extend degraded the performence of 109's, like climb rate, turn rate, manual prop. pitch, engine management(overheat easily but cool down slowly), stableness, weapon power(hitting someone with 1 or 2 108 shots doesn't result in fatal damage. Thats no problem. But have u ever noticed that under the same turning angle(not too big), 109 drops speed much faster than any other planes. That's really not fair. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didnt notice anything like that. Flying 109s on regular bases...as usually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Still turns, still climbs and MK108 is still a death to pretty much anything

Iron-Works
11-11-2005, 11:17 AM
I suck. That's really not fair.

Badsight.
11-11-2005, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
You sure? I'd imagine that, say, a Fortress wouldn't be too easy to get down IRL either... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>german pilots are quoted as saying 3 direct hits was all you needed to bust open a b-17 with the Mk-108

Stigler_9_JG52
11-11-2005, 12:50 PM
That's not completely accurate, Badsight.

Three GROUPED hits (e.g., on a wing or in one area of the fuselage) might, but, for example, one each in a left wing, right wing and the fuse probably wouldn't. You'd need more like half a dozen "spread out" hits anywhere to reliably take down a Fort, on average.

For B-17s, that's an important distinction, and shows just how tough the suckers were.

RAF74_Poker
11-11-2005, 01:05 PM
This unfair e-bleed means they can pitch up, and cause an overshoot at the drop of a hat .. A rolling scissors becomes a race to see who can hold off stall longer, because you're doing your best to slow down and stop the overshoot.
Once you're in front it's **** hard to avoid those lasercannons.

faustnik
11-11-2005, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:

Didnt notice anything like that. Flying 109s on regular bases...as usually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Still turns, still climbs and MK108 is still a death to pretty much anything </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Ivan, but I just don't get the whole Bf109 thing. How can you B&Z with a an a/c with such lousy elevator control? Every time I try the Bf109 everything seems great, you climb and get position, then you dive on the target and the elevator locks up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The idea that too much E-bleed is an advantage is funny. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

How do you select laser cannons for loadout?

anarchy52
11-11-2005, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAF74_Poker:
This unfair e-bleed means they can pitch up, and cause an overshoot at the drop of a hat .. A rolling scissors becomes a race to see who can hold off stall longer, because you're doing your best to slow down and stop the overshoot.
Once you're in front it's **** hard to avoid those lasercannons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lasercannons?
I wasn't aware there are 109s with hispanos in game...

Unknown-Pilot
11-11-2005, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
How do you select laser cannons for loadout? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fly a sov plane.

danjama
11-11-2005, 01:46 PM
I am glad they lose energy quickly, otherwise it would be impossible to fight with it coming out of a dive... Oh **** i just noticed i am taking part in a whiners thread. Maybe next year i can do it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

crazyivan1970
11-11-2005, 02:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:

Didnt notice anything like that. Flying 109s on regular bases...as usually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Still turns, still climbs and MK108 is still a death to pretty much anything </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Ivan, but I just don't get the whole Bf109 thing. How can you B&Z with a an a/c with such lousy elevator control? Every time I try the Bf109 everything seems great, you climb and get position, then you dive on the target and the elevator locks up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The idea that too much E-bleed is an advantage is funny. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

How do you select laser cannons for loadout? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, elevator control kinda stiff on 109s...with exception of early ones that have a pretty good control (G-2 and earlier) but the reality is... those with great elevator control black out much faster and in the end... it kind of balances out. You can always increase responce by using combat flaps for very short period of time... or lower your throttle and then "floor it" again.

I usually attack at 650+ falling below the opponent and then striking him as i go up @ his 6 from very close distance, closer then 100m. That`s where MK108 is really your friend http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif 1-2 rounds and either big kaboom or half disabled, crippled bird.

neural_dream
11-11-2005, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
You can always increase responce by using combat flaps for very short period of time... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why short time? I think they won't be damaged (at least in the 109).

crazyivan1970
11-11-2005, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
You can always increase responce by using combat flaps for very short period of time... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why short time? I think they won't be damaged (at least in the 109). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don`t really want to lose speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kuna15
11-11-2005, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
How can you B&Z with a an a/c with such lousy elevator control? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can not BnZ with Bf-109 in litteral meaning of "BnZ" word (in a way you can in P-51, P-47, FW-190...). Only way to BnZ something on very high speed is that target do not change course or speed much (unaware of danger) otherwise it's nearly impossible.
When you approach your target you need to slow down to a speed faster (depends really on targets speed -- if he is really slow you can still attack with medium/high speeds where Bf-109 has enough elevator authority to make neccesary 'last minute' changes in deflection) than target itself in shooting range so you have control of situation. However Bf-109 is perhaps the best plane in this sort of things, so that task is not hard.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How do you select laser cannons for loadout? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no lasers in FB from my PoV. Once when user gets adjusted to certain loadout he will be good with it and bad with some other.

I myself am an example; after few months of flying LaGG and Lavochkins almost exclusively online I am still slightly better with nose MG151 and MK108 (I flew Bf-109s from IL-2 Demo days). For me MG151 and MK108 are still superior snap shot weapons to ShVAK because of my experience with that cannons. Running away target kills from 400+ meters with MK108 aren't uncommon in my experience (they mostly do not evade much trying to accelerate faster/lose less energy).

It is all about experience with that cannons.

vanjast
11-11-2005, 03:20 PM
BnZ is only good for attacking large formations, and that's if you can see them some way off. How many people really BnZ online, it's just no fun compared to DF'ing it.

Just imagine....
'Watch you six..'
'Break right..'
'Drag him'
'Careful here comes BnZ... duck, OK he's gone..'
'Back to normal..'
'Where's BnZ ?'
'Who cares, we won't see him for a while.....'
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VW-IceFire
11-11-2005, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:

Didnt notice anything like that. Flying 109s on regular bases...as usually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Still turns, still climbs and MK108 is still a death to pretty much anything </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Ivan, but I just don't get the whole Bf109 thing. How can you B&Z with a an a/c with such lousy elevator control? Every time I try the Bf109 everything seems great, you climb and get position, then you dive on the target and the elevator locks up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The idea that too much E-bleed is an advantage is funny. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

How do you select laser cannons for loadout? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL Faust...I had this problem for quite some time myself. I still have problems with it. The 109 is totally different from the 190.

I think the 4.02 version of the 109 is the best I've seen yet. I can actually fly the thing again...it seems much more inline with the rest of the other aircraft.

A BNZ move in the 109 is done at near same altitude with a slight advantage and usually done by coming in higher and faster and then dropping in, firing, and climbing away. In a FW190 you rely on your speed to climb away...the 109 has very good climb acceleration so you can just go up, over, and drop back onto him a second time very quickly. Its harder and I'm not as good at it as I could be but I LIKE the 4.02m 109.

Honestly, ebleed...seems about the same as other aircraft in its type. I found it didn't bleed energy much in the earlier incarnations...that was actually a problem as you want to slow down to leverage your best attributes (high roll and turn rate at medium to low speed). Its the anti-thesis of the FW190.

msalama
11-11-2005, 03:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I suck. That's really not fair. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do I, though not _that_ much anymore. Is that fair?

PS. Cute dog there, BTW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif