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View Full Version : I want tracer fire to look like this!



VMF-214_HaVoK
11-13-2006, 11:23 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2122487182494665973&hl=en

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/vmfhavok/theBlackSheep.jpg

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-13-2006, 11:23 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2122487182494665973&hl=en

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/vmfhavok/theBlackSheep.jpg

PF_Coastie
11-13-2006, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F0_Dark_P:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
off topic i know but i found it just beneeth the animation of a he111.

real spitfire flying price!!! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-991177782126573351&hl=en) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nice! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I saw this too and just watched 2 of 4. I have bookedmarked 3 of 4 to watch later. Very good series so far.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

PF_Coastie

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WTE_Galway
11-13-2006, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
LOL. Im not a fan boy I just found it a funny sig. I buy what is best bang for buck for me at the time. This time it was the eVGA 7950GT 512MB. Which rocks btw. I have owned several ATI cards. An old 9500 and two 9800pros, X800GT. Ive owned several Nvidia cards as well. Like the TI 4600. ATI has piss poor open GL support and Nvidia has bugs of their own. But I tell you one thing is this 7950GT eats FB/PF up. 100 fps in perfect mode with 4xAA and 4xAF. Gotta love that and this card can be had now for under 300 bucks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree... infact I was thinking to buy a 7950GT too, but this time I made a research on the forums to have no "surprise". When I read "where is always the chance of a defective card" I dropped nVidia. But... Two 9800Pro??? died cards? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One 9800Pro died...yes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought everyone was running 8800 DX10 cards these days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-13-2006, 02:58 PM
Im not trying to get into a huge debate here but the spiral effect of the smoke trail has to do with air not a wobbling camera. Thats the only point I would like to point out the rest you all can debate all you like. I have seen too many people right the spiraling smoke effect off due to a camera issue when its simply not true.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/vmfhavok/theBlackSheep.jpg

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-13-2006, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
LOL. Im not a fan boy I just found it a funny sig. I buy what is best bang for buck for me at the time. This time it was the eVGA 7950GT 512MB. Which rocks btw. I have owned several ATI cards. An old 9500 and two 9800pros, X800GT. Ive owned several Nvidia cards as well. Like the TI 4600. ATI has piss poor open GL support and Nvidia has bugs of their own. But I tell you one thing is this 7950GT eats FB/PF up. 100 fps in perfect mode with 4xAA and 4xAF. Gotta love that and this card can be had now for under 300 bucks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree... infact I was thinking to buy a 7950GT too, but this time I made a research on the forums to have no "surprise". When I read "where is always the chance of a defective card" I dropped nVidia. But... Two 9800Pro??? died cards? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One 9800Pro died...yes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought everyone was running 8800 DX10 cards these days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No way! Didnt you hear about the 8800 recalls?!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/vmfhavok/theBlackSheep.jpg

Tater-SW-
11-13-2006, 03:27 PM
The spiralling smoke is not the "wobble" I am talking about. The spiralling is a function of the round spinning due to rifling and is totally real.

I mean the flight path of the tracer that looks like Woodstock from a Peanuts cartoon.

tater

mortoma1958
11-13-2006, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
I'd add there is another camera related factor involved when you say there are movies you have seen with fairly steady target aircraft, and wobbly tracers. A tracer is in effect a bright point source to the camera, while the target is an extended object. A slight movement of the extended object will not be nearly as obvious as the movement of the bright point source since even a single "pixel" (call anything the same scale size as the tracer diameter a "pixel") on either side will clearly wibble visually, while a plane many hundreds of the same "pixels" wide will only apparently move a couple %.

Add in parallax???the tracer rounds are closer tot he camera when first fiored, so you'd expect to see more apparent motion when close tot he camera, lessening as the round goes downrange (which is what you see in all guncams). The wobble on some (like the He11 attack in the game vid) is HUGE right out of the muzzle, something only possible due to virbration of the aircraft over some macroscopic range. A few feet from the muzzle, there is just no way a round moving 3000ft/s is corkscrewing around its flight path by 3-6 inches.

tater </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well maybe not a few feet after it leaves the barrel but after fifty or more yards yes. All I know is I have seen excessivle wobbly
tracers rounds with my own eyes and will swear on a stack of bibles about it.

WWMaxGunz
11-13-2006, 05:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma1958:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
The tracer fire in that game vid is a function of designer cluelessness, IMO. The wiggly nature of tracer fire in guncams is due to camera vibration, not an inherent trait of tracer fire.

I'd live to see tracer ricochets, too.

tater </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Here we go again. That is utterly a false assumption. I have seen tracer fire when my brother and I bought some 5.56mm tracer ammo at a gun show. We were coming out of the woods
one evening and it was quite dark when we were up near the house. We both had our AR-15 semi-autos and he decided to shoot some of the tracer ammo into a hillside back towards the woods. He gave me a couple rounds for my rifle and we both shot some. Some of his tracers wiggled quite wildly, just like as is common in guncam footage of yesteryear. My rifle fired both rounds perfectly. There are several things that can cause rifle rounds to travel like that, especially tracer rounds. Camera vibration has not one thing to do with it. This "vibrating camera" myth has been circling around for years and has acheived urban legend status.
Three things that can cause wobble of tracer rounds.
1.) Vibration of rifle/mg barrel ( not the camera. )
2.) Hot and/or worn barrel ( this was common in W.W.II as guns barrels could literally melt if the pilot held the triggers too long.
3.) Uneven burning of the phosphorus coating of the tracer, causing the round to wobble/spin around.

If it was the camera, then the image of the enemy aircraft, other objects would be blurry, but often they are very clear. Why would the cam vibration on only affect the tracers in the film??
I mean think about it for a second.......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ain't this strange. We fired nightfire at the range twice a year and the M-16 tracers I
fired went so straight and fast out to the targets (guessing 100m, hard to see at night)
that I couldn't really tell where my shots went except where the weapon was pointing. It's
only one in five and we'd blit-blit-blit 2-3 rounds each. When I looked across to the sides
I could see tracers from other rifles easily but my own were like pink dots. And then
someone dips the sight a bit and squirts an extended burst that hits ground and THEN you'd
get wiggles but those are wilder than guncam squiggles by far. And then the whole line
would fire up a light show (okay, about half the guys, it was the 70's) and the tower guy
would get a bent outta shape and it was a blast.

But hey really even with a worn Colt A-1 model (my later ones had Mattel on the plate) I
never saw tracer wobble or much brightness for that matter from behind the weapon. Same
as sound. The one next to you is loud, yours is not. That's WITH ear protection.

Viper2005_
11-13-2006, 05:52 PM
I think that's because you don't get hit by the shockwaves from your own rounds.

WWMaxGunz
11-14-2006, 04:13 AM
I know it is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Watch someone fire from prone and every shot the dust kicks below the muzzle brake.
You know those weapons on single shot have ridiculously little kick for 1100 ft-lb at muzzle.

Choctaw111
11-14-2006, 05:40 AM
The only thing I have to note that may attribute to wiggly tracers is that I have seen on an early German 20mm round, pulled from a B-17, is that the hole in the back end that the tracer burned through was off center so as the b

Haigotron
11-14-2006, 07:46 AM
You realize those heinkels were on noob difficutly, they barely shot at the spit sitting at their six oclock...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif just kidding, nice vid though! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Haigotron
11-14-2006, 07:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But for the most part tracers do travel straight (until they hit something, anything. Even an insect that change a bullets path. I have testing this myself with a SAW M249 and a swarm of mosquitos. I fired a good burst into the swarm and you should have seen the deviation of the flight paths of the tracers. I was amazed at how noticeable it was).They also do NOT have a laser beam smoke trail either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very interesting experiment! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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The End is Nigh: The World will END in two weeks...be sure!

Agamemnon22
11-14-2006, 10:30 PM
I followed the making of the 1st vid on a 3d forum, and trust me it has no basis in reality. The guy's a good artist, but he's not a historian.

Secondly, for the guncam footage. This is the same thing we ran into with muzzle flashes, and you really don't want to bring that back. Camera film reacts to visible and infrared light differently from your eyes. To the pilot sitting in the P-47 on which that vid was recorded, the tracers appeared quite a bit duller, although maybe not as dull as we have em in the game. The only way to know is to go out and fire a WW2 era .50 cal round. Video doesn't help any because the film doesn't pick up light the same way your eyes do.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FritzGryphon
11-14-2006, 11:00 PM
I think it's a far more likely explaination that the MG151 rounds expel the tracer from the side of the round, and not the base. The smoke is ejected away from the round, naturally creating a spiral as it spins.

I do recall reading this once, some time ago, though I can't find the source ATM. Makes more sense than mysterious tumbling rounds or camera tricks.

WWMaxGunz
11-15-2006, 07:20 AM
Tracer on .50 is on the tip of the bullet which spins. Having phosphorous on the sides of the
round where some would get wiped off into the rifling would burn the barrel.

Zoom2136
11-15-2006, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Saw quite a few corkscrew smoke trails. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is because all barrels are "riffles"... meaning the grooving inside of it make the bullet turn (spirral) this in turn forces the bullet to "self correct" it path... meaning the bullet is always "corkscrewing" all the way to target so no force acting in one direction can make it deviate from its intended path... (other than gravity) same thing for arrows...

If this was not the case it would be like firing a BB gun only to see your BB's drift in one direction...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

Choctaw111
11-15-2006, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Tracer on .50 is on the tip of the bullet which spins. Having phosphorous on the sides of the
round where some would get wiped off into the rifling would burn the barrel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The tracer is not on the tip of the bullet. The only thing on the tip is the red color coded paint to indicate that the bullet was a tracer round. The tracer compound is contained in the base of the bullet and ignited by the intense heat of the gunpowder blasting the bullet down the barrel. Here are some pics of a tracer round manufactured in 1943 to alleviate any confusion here. I actually pulled this tracer bullet out and lit it using a torch which you can see here. Keep in mind that the bright light you see here is the tracer and not the torch!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/DSC03610-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/DSC03609-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/DSC03607-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/50Cal.bmp <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WWMaxGunz
11-15-2006, 09:06 PM
Son of a gun!

A bullet that wobbles like some gun film has them would not get more than a couple hundred yards
if that. It would be a fix-me item.

choxaway
11-16-2006, 02:32 AM
I know the tracer footage from the much maligned Flyboys has been created artificially afterwards but I think it a fair representation of the slight swirling effects seen in some real archive footage of later wars. Just thought I'd throw that in for good measure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What I find fascinating in the Thunderbolt footage is the amount of ammo that ricochets off the fields as well as from the obviously harder materials such as concrete or buildings. I realise the angle of attack has a lot to do with it but some of those tracers were bouncing off soft grass areas. That would be a great effect in a sim if done well. It must have been a tad disconcerting to see those tracers coming at you if on the receiving end.

Talking of which, a few years back I had a long conversation with a pilot who flew Harriers in the Falklands conflict and he was saying how unprepared the British forces were due to the rather rushed nature of the war. There was a distinct shortage of tracer rounds on board the ships and the attacking Argentinian planes were facing a barrage of fire from the ships almost without realising it and flew on seemingly oblivious to the real danger. If the British navy had been firing tracer the pilots wouldn't have been quite so 'brave' as he said there's nothing quite like seeing a ton of lethal white darts coming straight at you to make you change your mind. Brown trousers would be the order of the day, methinks . . .