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funkster319
09-27-2007, 06:48 PM
Hey just looking for a bit of advice with regards to staying with your flight.

No matter how hard I try I never seem to be able to takeoff and keep up with my flight/wingman.

If I takeoff after Ground Control permission is granted i always seem to be way back from flight and then struggle to catch up!They always seem to be able to climb at a much higher rate than I can achieve?

I think I have pretty good understanding of CEM and how to get the most out of my engine etc (could be wrong).

But can anyone give me advice/tips on how to:

1) keep up in first place(takeoff closer to formation) - Any takeoff timings recomended Prop/throttle settings for takeoff? -Currently I generally use 100% Prop / Thottle. Hign RPM but only for intial takeoff.

2) How to catch up (Maximise Speed)- I noramlly use about 75$ throttle / and around 60% prop to keep my RPM around 25 (Spitfire)- is this correct /efficent?

3) climb efficently - I either shallow climb or alternate between shallow dives for speed followed by moderate climbs and repeat till at desired height.

Many thanks in advance

funkster319
09-27-2007, 06:48 PM
Hey just looking for a bit of advice with regards to staying with your flight.

No matter how hard I try I never seem to be able to takeoff and keep up with my flight/wingman.

If I takeoff after Ground Control permission is granted i always seem to be way back from flight and then struggle to catch up!They always seem to be able to climb at a much higher rate than I can achieve?

I think I have pretty good understanding of CEM and how to get the most out of my engine etc (could be wrong).

But can anyone give me advice/tips on how to:

1) keep up in first place(takeoff closer to formation) - Any takeoff timings recomended Prop/throttle settings for takeoff? -Currently I generally use 100% Prop / Thottle. Hign RPM but only for intial takeoff.

2) How to catch up (Maximise Speed)- I noramlly use about 75$ throttle / and around 60% prop to keep my RPM around 25 (Spitfire)- is this correct /efficent?

3) climb efficently - I either shallow climb or alternate between shallow dives for speed followed by moderate climbs and repeat till at desired height.

Many thanks in advance

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2007, 06:53 PM
Climbing efficiently helps

But try this-

unless you're heavily laden with bombs,

1) close canopy
2) no flaps. At all
3) close rad. flaps
4) rev max, full pitch (if Allied)
5) lock tailwheel
6) keep your plane on the ground until ~150 mph indicated is shown
7) take-off in a shallow climb, keeping up speed
8) gear up as fast s possible once airborne
9) continue to build speed in shallow climb

This technique lets me pass flight leader if I am #4

Another technique is simply to swerve around all those idiots in front of you, and take off first, then let them do the catching up

funkster319
09-28-2007, 08:14 AM
hmmm I thought it was RAD open? (well at least according to some pre flight list i've read). Also I have double checked and I am correct in thinking that RPM should be 30000 with 100% thottle and WEP on for maximum takeoff (At least in the Spit). I later reduce the prop/thorttle for 2600 rpm for maximum sustainable speed.

What am I doing wrong? Maybe as you say its impossible to actually fly the same line as the AI and keep up ??

Any other thoughts on this - it's very frustatrating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2007, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
hmmm I thought it was RAD open? (well at least according to some pre flight list i've read). Also I have double checked and I am correct in thinking that RPM should be 30000 with 100% thottle and WEP on for maximum takeoff (At least in the Spit). I later reduce the prop/thorttle for 2600 rpm for maximum sustainable speed.

What am I doing wrong? Maybe as you say its impossible to actually fly the same line as the AI and keep up ??

Any other thoughts on this - it's very frustatrating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say it was impossible

If you're using real take-off procedure for taking off, I strongly urge you to consider that yes, this is a simulation of flight...but it is not reality. if the sim perfectly modeled reality, then i would recommend using the real-life take-off method

Since it, and no other sim, does model reality at real-world levels of perfection, then I suggest that when you encounter a problem such as the one you have found, that you use the means the sim gives you to effectively overcome that problem

But in every sim, the AI looks at 0s and 1s, while you need to identify stimuli and react to them. Even if the AI was using your exact technique, they will fly more efficiently than you, because you will make minor mistakes when judging AoA, power settings, etc

SeaFireLIV
09-28-2007, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
hmmm I thought it was RAD open? (well at least according to some pre flight list i've read). Also I have double checked and I am correct in thinking that RPM should be 30000 with 100% thottle and WEP on for maximum takeoff (At least in the Spit). I later reduce the prop/thorttle for 2600 rpm for maximum sustainable speed.

What am I doing wrong? Maybe as you say its impossible to actually fly the same line as the AI and keep up ??

Any other thoughts on this - it's very frustatrating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps trim up a little? I sometimes start with RAd close, as that reduces drag. No flaps on most planes. Try to mess with rudder too much as that also causes drag.

Truth is, I can`t tell all the parameters except that i can now easily fly and keep up with the AI, even with the I16. All I can say is keep at it, experience slowly teaches, even unconscously...

The AI has it right first time, but it`s not impossible to catch them up and even pass them, eventually, then you realise Oleg really doesn`t have the AI doing stuff a human can`t do. It`s just practise.

K_Freddie
09-29-2007, 12:43 AM
Besides trimming, do a bit of engine management..

Here's wot ah do, and get a ME109E to run at approx 450Kph at sea level.
Throttle back to 60%, Prop pitch to 60%, and radiator on auto or '2'.

In a climb you raise the settings a bit, and play with your mixture.
Don't forget to change super-charger (if fitted) settings as you get to higher alts.

When playing with your engine, watch the ATA and Rev dials, you want to get max ATA for a certain Rev and pitch.

Another thing, is not to match the AI climb rate but aim for a 'target' slightly below those a/c - this way you'll find yourself catching up.

You'll work it out.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

funkster319
09-29-2007, 08:32 AM
Yeah I've got the hang of the take off and normally do all the things you say - except I normally open rad. I do trim up with a little on elevator trim to keep tail down a bit and the obvious rudder trim to counter torque effects. As soon as i'm up and about I CLEAN OFF the plane and reset trim accordingly.

I think were i was going wrong was basically waiting for tower clearance and not just following IMEDIATELY after the plane in front (literally start moving as they do). So all in all take off good now - However I still find the AI pulling climbs which i find impossible but my CEM is improving all the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif so as you say I guess it just takes a little more practise to become uber efficent or AI like lol !

All good and the post has just reaffirmed that i'm not missing anything except a bit more practise and learning the quirks of the SIM.

Cheers guys

funkster319
09-29-2007, 08:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When playing with your engine, watch the ATA and Rev dials, you want to get max ATA for a certain Rev and pitch </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure what you mean ? REV = RPM? ATA= Air Speed Indicator?

I always ensure that my RPM is efficent at what ever speed i'm doing and only really push it hard in combat - then interperse with "cool down" periods to avoid Eng Overheat! Works good

okb001
09-29-2007, 09:36 AM
If you use DCG instead of DGEN, you can set it to generate some extra waypoints around the base so that the formation can form-up. Which I think is more realistic than taking-off and rushing to the targets without waiting for the other planes ...

mortoma
09-29-2007, 09:40 AM
Personally, I never use prop pitch in this game much. And for good reason, it doesn't do much except save gas. If you want the fullest power and speed in most airplanes in this sim and at most altitudes, just leave PP alone!! I always keep up with AI, I just climb at an efficient speed for whatever plane I'm flying. Just don't try to climb too fast, too soon. Many people try to climb too aggressively to catch up with AI and get their "climb angle" too steep. More important to climb in a more shallow and speedier attitude. In other words, go more for speed than climb and you'll do just fine. There are a few planes ( in the Dgen campaign settings ) that have their cruise speed set to maximum. Those planes are hard to keep up with. Some of the Spitfires and the FM2 Wildcat come to mind. I edited the scripts in Dgen to slow them down a bit. But by far most planes are super easy to keep up with if you are talking AI pilots. I leave PP and throttle full until I overheat, then back off throttle and open up cowl flaps. By that time I am usually sufficiently close to my AI companions to get in formation with them. PP never helped me that much and if I can keep up not using it, that should tell you something.

mortoma
09-29-2007, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by okb001:
If you use DCG instead of DGEN, you can set it to generate some extra waypoints around the base so that the formation can form-up. Which I think is more realistic than taking-off and rushing to the targets without waiting for the other planes ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That is indeed more realistic and how they did it in RL usually. But still even in Dgen I can easily catch up to the AI in the vast majority of planes.

VW-IceFire
09-29-2007, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Personally, I never use prop pitch in this game much. And for good reason, it doesn't do much except save gas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are some applications that can help you out. One is diving where prop pitch may in some instances allow you to go faster. Particularly with a sustained acceleration to top speed you often have the choice of running with the radiator open and throttle maxed or with the radiator closed, throttle still maxed out, but the prop pitch is lower. Sometimes you can find a good mix that will allow for peak performance.

This is mostly for planes like the Mustang or Tempest. The Tempest in particular since its a really hot one and you can often get better performance running with WEP enabled and PP at 70%.

heywooood
09-29-2007, 10:43 AM
you might turn the radiator off in difficulty screen...the way overheating is modeled is so random and inconsistent not to mention incorrect for every plane type that it just needs to be switched off - you can put in tha back of your mind that constant full throttle is not good for your engine and self-regulate your use of it better than it is simulated IMO.

correct trim is vital - you should practice trimming your plane for straight and level flight (hands free mind you) at a few basic power settings - then you will see how easy it is to fly in formation with the flight leader.

mortoma
09-29-2007, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Personally, I never use prop pitch in this game much. And for good reason, it doesn't do much except save gas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are some applications that can help you out. One is diving where prop pitch may in some instances allow you to go faster. Particularly with a sustained acceleration to top speed you often have the choice of running with the radiator open and throttle maxed or with the radiator closed, throttle still maxed out, but the prop pitch is lower. Sometimes you can find a good mix that will allow for peak performance.

This is mostly for planes like the Mustang or Tempest. The Tempest in particular since its a really hot one and you can often get better performance running with WEP enabled and PP at 70%. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yea, there may be some exceptions but most of the time it has little effect. I can't remember how many times I've been at high altitude and adjusted PP only to find I go faster with 100%. I have noticed it can make you go a tiny bit faster but not often. Have not flown the Tempest that much, will try the PP adjustment.

M_Gunz
09-29-2007, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When playing with your engine, watch the ATA and Rev dials, you want to get max ATA for a certain Rev and pitch </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure what you mean ? REV = RPM? ATA= Air Speed Indicator?

I always ensure that my RPM is efficent at what ever speed i'm doing and only really push it hard in combat - then interperse with "cool down" periods to avoid Eng Overheat! Works good </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rev is RPM and ATA is manifold pressure, ie boost.

Since you know trim and rads and all the biggest tip given here that got no further mention is
also the most critical and worth more than 15 seconds takeoff delay -- once you're up do not
just point the nose at your flight and try to follow that way. Stay down and maintain speed
as you climb, give it patience and soon enough you will have to throttle back to stay in place.

Trim, rads and slip all come beneath that on the list of important.

mortoma
09-29-2007, 04:41 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif


I've been trying to explain this to the "I can't keep up" crowd since way back in the IL2 days!! Maybe your way of wording it is better than my way.

funkster319
09-30-2007, 05:55 AM
Thanks guys- as said take off formation has improved alot now and I've always have done the "lower altitude /climb following" but asked my original question as I thought this was wrong and that I must be missing something!

I.E " surely I must be expected to follow the groups flight path /climb rate etc".

I guess it is as said above - its about manipulating the sim and not expecting RL play out.

A bit of a shame as you lose a bit of immersion having to cut across with your flight 1000's of feet up not to mention that bloody ignoring "Keep up with leader" radio chatter!

slipBall
09-30-2007, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
Hey just looking for a bit of advice with regards to staying with your flight.

No matter how hard I try I never seem to be able to takeoff and keep up with my flight/wingman.

If I takeoff after Ground Control permission is granted i always seem to be way back from flight and then struggle to catch up!They always seem to be able to climb at a much higher rate than I can achieve?

I think I have pretty good understanding of CEM and how to get the most out of my engine etc (could be wrong).

But can anyone give me advice/tips on how to:

1) keep up in first place(takeoff closer to formation) - Any takeoff timings recomended Prop/throttle settings for takeoff? -Currently I generally use 100% Prop / Thottle. Hign RPM but only for intial takeoff.

2) How to catch up (Maximise Speed)- I noramlly use about 75$ throttle / and around 60% prop to keep my RPM around 25 (Spitfire)- is this correct /efficent?

3) climb efficently - I either shallow climb or alternate between shallow dives for speed followed by moderate climbs and repeat till at desired height.

Many thanks in advance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



You could be the leader, let them (AI) keep up with you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M_Gunz
09-30-2007, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif


I've been trying to explain this to the "I can't keep up" crowd since way back in the IL2 days!! Maybe your way of wording it is better than my way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only if they get it.

M_Gunz
09-30-2007, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
Thanks guys- as said take off formation has improved alot now and I've always have done the "lower altitude /climb following" but asked my original question as I thought this was wrong and that I must be missing something!

I.E " surely I must be expected to follow the groups flight path /climb rate etc".

I guess it is as said above - its about manipulating the sim and not expecting RL play out.

A bit of a shame as you lose a bit of immersion having to cut across with your flight 1000's of feet up not to mention that bloody ignoring "Keep up with leader" radio chatter! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know what path they flew to start do you? It's been common enough for whoever to
get flying and just expect to point the nose at the next and just follow. What works is to
get speed up first before trying to follow let alone close the gap. First one out does not
have to close the gap, last one out has the most to make up, you have to fly your position.

You can zoom it lower till you have a good maintainable climb speed that lets you close it up
quicker -at the same height the rest are- or you can b!tch about manipulating the sim as if
you expect some kind of gimmie and it's not working. Your choice.

Check speed of the flight and you should find they are not going blazingly fast and nowhere
near full power which you can use === equation is that you are simply doing something wrong.
#1 answer is flying nose high at too low a speed and never even at 110% will you catch up.
Perhaps you have a different problem but THAT is the head of the list for 6 years running.

funkster319
09-30-2007, 09:14 AM
GUNZ - Not sure what you are trying to reiterate or why?

I agree 100% with the level flight/build up speed approach - I stated this is what i had figured out originally! This post was simply a check to make sure that this was "the done thing" and I was not missing anything that would allow me to fly wing to wing with the AI from out set.

As correctly stated above the AI is far more efficient than any human pilot as it is only dealing with 0 and 1's etc. My last statement only pointed out the flaws of this i.e. loss of immersion etc due to the fact that in campaign missions you have to fly a slightly different flight path (Low for speed) in order to catch up. In RL obviously this would not happen. So unfortunately it is a minor and acceptable flaw.

I'm certainly not B1tching! or even disagreeing !

slipBall
09-30-2007, 01:13 PM
You could try taking off in the dust of the one before you, I mean right on his ars....being the flight leader is way more enjoyable, no catch up problem's. You would need to do some editing, or start a pilot career with you as the leader....very few of us keep up with AI, but it is very possible to do...it is not easy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

M_Gunz
09-30-2007, 09:31 PM
GUNZ - Not sure what you are trying to reiterate or why?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
Thanks guys- as said take off formation has improved alot now and I've always have done the "lower altitude /climb following" but asked my original question as I thought this was wrong and that I must be missing something!

I.E " surely I must be expected to follow the groups flight path /climb rate etc".

I guess it is as said above - its about manipulating the sim and not expecting RL play out.

A bit of a shame as you lose a bit of immersion having to cut across with your flight 1000's of feet up not to mention that bloody ignoring "Keep up with leader" radio chatter! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because ...

its about manipulating the sim and not expecting RL play out

How should I read that and the post it was in? I read the words and they say you do not agree.
I am not good at reading other than what is written.

M_Gunz
09-30-2007, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
You could try taking off in the dust of the one before you, I mean right on his ars....being the flight leader is way more enjoyable, no catch up problem's. You would need to do some editing, or start a pilot career with you as the leader....very few of us keep up with AI, but it is very possible to do...it is not easy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you using any Filter in your stick settings, esp on pitch/elevator?
A little extra smoothness goes a very long way and Filter is a way to get that.

sgt.dumpster
10-01-2007, 11:29 AM
i sometimes leave the flight lineup and just taxi over to the other open runway,of course be careful not to run in to anyone or anything.

slipBall
10-01-2007, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
You could try taking off in the dust of the one before you, I mean right on his ars....being the flight leader is way more enjoyable, no catch up problem's. You would need to do some editing, or start a pilot career with you as the leader....very few of us keep up with AI, but it is very possible to do...it is not easy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you using any Filter in your stick settings, esp on pitch/elevator?
A little extra smoothness goes a very long way and Filter is a way to get that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, no filter....but thank's for that tip, I will try it out

mortoma
10-01-2007, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
You could try taking off in the dust of the one before you, I mean right on his ars....being the flight leader is way more enjoyable, no catch up problem's. You would need to do some editing, or start a pilot career with you as the leader....very few of us keep up with AI, but it is very possible to do...it is not easy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I guess I must have been doing it so long and gotten good, because I don't have any difficulty in keeping up. I think it really is easy. I really do.

M_Gunz
10-01-2007, 11:18 PM
Considering cruise speed set for missions it should never be a matter of if but rather when.

FlitGun
10-01-2007, 11:45 PM
How about: 'knowing the flight plan' to help with the keeping up.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-study the map (pick out waypoint landmarks)
-know your headings (or try and listen for them)
-lead your flight's heading (knowing there is a turn ahead)
-head down (can't hurt)

hope that helps http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif