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JFC_Warhawk
08-06-2005, 12:21 AM
JFC has a dedicated stand alone server in hyperlobby running a random map DF and we will soon have another one running strictly for a AVG DF Campaign.

Plane sets will be A6M and the betty for japanese, and 3 P-40 models that cover 1941 to 1942 for the allies.

Map will be Singapore 1 with objectives for each side. The one that completes their objective in the specified time limit will advance to the next phase.

To win the entire campaign, you will need to be victorious in all 3 phases of objectives.

The server will be set to advance maps accordingly. each map will have a 2 hour limit to complete.

The objective is to play a historical campaign utilizing teamwork to achieve victory. We will provide voicecomms for everyone participating. If this works out, we will expand this idea to the other server using the same premise to do south pacific ops.

JFC_Warhawk
08-06-2005, 12:21 AM
JFC has a dedicated stand alone server in hyperlobby running a random map DF and we will soon have another one running strictly for a AVG DF Campaign.

Plane sets will be A6M and the betty for japanese, and 3 P-40 models that cover 1941 to 1942 for the allies.

Map will be Singapore 1 with objectives for each side. The one that completes their objective in the specified time limit will advance to the next phase.

To win the entire campaign, you will need to be victorious in all 3 phases of objectives.

The server will be set to advance maps accordingly. each map will have a 2 hour limit to complete.

The objective is to play a historical campaign utilizing teamwork to achieve victory. We will provide voicecomms for everyone participating. If this works out, we will expand this idea to the other server using the same premise to do south pacific ops.

VFS-214_Hawk
08-06-2005, 05:07 AM
Thats great, however, the A6M never met the Flying Tigers....AVG

JFC_Warhawk
08-06-2005, 08:28 AM
For those who don't know the history. I have pasted a small bit here;

"Both the Flying Tigers in China and the RAF squadrons in the Middle East had their P-40Bs replaced by P-40Es. The AVG after continuous operation, was down to some twenty P-40Bs by March 1942, when some thirty P-40Es were ferried to China by air from Accra, in Africa. The improved performance offered by these more potent P-40s was found to be extremely valuable against the Mitsubishi A6M Zero-Sen fighters which, first introduced in the Chinese theatre in 1940, were becoming increasingly numerous.

The ground-attack potential of the P-40E was also much superior. The AVG pilots had resorted to carrying 30-lb. incendiary and fragmentation bombs in the flare chutes of their P-40Bs, but it was questionable whether this was not more hazardous to the attackers than to the attacked. But some indication of the P-40's capabilities in resolute hands is given by the fact that from its inception in December 1941 until July 4, 1942, when it was absorbed by the USAAF, the AVG was officially credited with the destruction of 286 Japanese aircraft for the loss of eight pilots killed in action, two pilots and one crew chief killed during ground attack, and four pilots missing. The top-scoring AVG pilot, Robert H. Neale, was credited with the destruction of sixteen enemy aircraft while flying the P-40, and eight other pilots claimed ten or more victories."

VFS-214_Hawk
08-06-2005, 01:54 PM
Once again, the AVG never fought aginst the A6Ms. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here is a start: http://home.att.net/~ww2aircraft/RTSmith3.html

http://home.att.net/~ww2aircraft/RTSmith4.html

JFC_Warhawk
08-06-2005, 06:03 PM
I am all out of "T" food.

I will announce when the server goes live.

VFS-214_Hawk
08-06-2005, 08:24 PM
Also in reply to your private post.
OK, here are the facts. A6M2 model 11s were in China early in the war due to heavy Bomber losses. The A6M2 were able to escort the bombers deep into China. This worked and the A6M2s claimed 100 credits to no loss from "Chinese fighters". As a matter of fact, the only A6M2 losses were from AAA and only two were lost. (It would appear that the next A6M2 losses would be from Pearl totaling 9 losses.)

Thus, no AVG shot down or got shot down by A6M2s. Thus...la la la la, go study it for yourself, "AVG" never flew aginst the ONLY 12 A6M2s in China. They, the twelve A6M2 Model 11s, were assigned to the 12th Combined Naval Air Corps.

By all means go fly what ya want when ya want...your just advertising AVG and A6M2 that didnt exsist....however, it will make a good "what if" campaign.

Tater-SW-
08-06-2005, 11:10 PM
Yep, no zeros in an AVG campaign (unless you want a fantasy campaign). You'll have to use the Ki-43-1c (you can use the "1a" and "1b," but only a handful (30-40) of each was built).

I suppose the Betty must stand in for IJAAF bombers like the Sally since there are no IJAAF bombers in game. A Val would be a stand in for an Ann, perhaps.

tater

ElAurens
08-07-2005, 07:58 AM
Agreed. the AVG saw no A6M series aircraft. There is a chance they came into contact with A5Ms (Claude), but more likely they saw KI27s flying with the canopy removed, which was not uncommon.

Mostly the AVG fought KI 27s and KI43s...

Chuck_Older
08-07-2005, 09:04 AM
Good point about the canopy-less A5M, El

I do think that the AVG saw one A6M, however

A captured one that was brought to a few airfields for aircraft ID purposes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ALL japanese aircraft that were single engined were called "Zeroes", Warhawk

Don't feel this thread is bashing you, by the way. It's a very common thing to think the A6M was the aircraft faced by the AVG. The "zeroes" they saw were Ki-43s. In fact, they referred to a lot of these aircraft in ways that are unflamiliar to many Il-2 players. Like calling planes "I-16s"

A good rule of thumb is: be reluctant to include japanese naval aircraft. Mostly it's IJA. Some operational units did test out some IJN stuff for the IJA, though. But there were no confirmed actual enemy A6M sightings in the air by the AVG to my knowledge. I'd go ask them for confirmation, but their website is down!

Doesn't mean your server isn't running a good planeset, by the way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 09:50 AM
The captured A6M2s featured were from a group of A6M2s repositoning to Saigon, November 1941, for the Philippine Islands conflict while the rest of the A6M2s were enroute to Pearl. Lost due to low clouds and fog, the two pilots ended up at Leichou Pantao (also known as Leizhou or Luichow Pennisula). The two pilots landed on the €œbeach opposite Hainan€ Island. American ace Bruce K. Holloway, ex 23rd Fighter Group commander, confirmed that the two Zeros had been captured €œnear the town of Teitsan on the southeastern coast of Luichow Peninsula. One A6M2 made a normal landed but the other one was badly damaged. It took months to transport the two Zero war prizes under the noses of the Japanese army units from the Leichou coast to the inland city of Liuchow (24.5N, 109W). Eventually one was made airworthy and flown by the Flying Tigers. (NOT THE AVG! THE AVG HAD ALREADY BEEN DISBAND)

After long hours and days of once again rebuilding Zero 3372, alias P-5016, it was ready for more test flights. During this period, no less than five American aces with the 23rd Fighter Group test flew the Zero and formed a very exclusive group they called, €œThe Zero Club.€ The sole members of €œThe Zero Club€ were John R. €œJohnny€ Alison, six victories; Albert J. €œAjax€ Baumler, nine victories; Bruce K. Holloway, thirteen victories, Grant Mahony, five victories; and Clinton D. €œCasey€ Vincent, six victories. Soon the time drew short for Zero 3372€s stay in China. In early 1943 the Zero was flown to Karachi, India from Kunming with an escort flight of 23rd Fighter Group Curtiss P-40K Warhawks. One by one, all the Warhawks aborted their escort mission and Zero 3372 arrived in Karachi alone! There, Neumann supervised the crating of the Zero and it was placed aboard a ship bound for the United States as a war prize and for further testing.


The voyage to the United States was not uneventful. Historian Robert C. Mikesh reported that the forward fuselage and wings of Zero 3372 were damaged during a storm. Yet another account is that the Zero was damaged while being off-loaded in Havana, Cuba for a change of ship bound for a mainland port. In the event, the Curtiss Aircraft company volunteered to rebuild the damaged Zero once again. After its repair and reconstruction, but now bearing USAAF markings and the evaluation branch code EB-2 on the tail, Zero 3372 underwent further test flights at Wright Field, Ohio and the Army Proving Grounds at Eglin Field, Florida. At Eglin Field the tail number of the Zero was changed for the final time from EB-2 to EB-200.

During the last year of the war, the airframe was photographed in California on a War Bond tour. Then, just as mysteriously as the Zero had disappeared from the Japanese military inventory in 1941, the Zero vanished into the mists of time. Who knows? Perhaps Zero 3372, €œThe Mystery Zero,€ also known as €œThe China Zero€ or €œThe Tiger Zero,€ will again reappear!

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jimlansdale/Zero_5.jpg
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jimlansdale/Zero_2.jpg
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jimlansdale/Zero_11.jpg

Flying Tigers (not AVG) that flew the captured A6M2
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jimlansdale/Zero_15.jpg

Chuck_Older
08-07-2005, 10:18 AM
I must say I disagree strongly with what you consider the Flying Tigers. I feel quite confident that AVG veterans would also disagree. NO US Army unit has been able to use the name "Flying Tigers', as condoned by the AVG, until quite recently, and there is a US Army unit flying A-10s that are Offically the Flying Tigers. Last time I checked, the FTA (Flying Tigers Association) was an AVG community. I will ask Chuck Baisden (sorry to drop the name if you're reading, Chuck) for the straight scoop when the AVG site comes back up. he was there, don't you know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AVG disbanded on July 4th 1942. Unless you can provide me with clear dates as to when these A6Ms showed up in China in Allied hands, I cannot say I lend your argument much weight

USAAF turned up in Kunming on June 22nd 1942 if I recall (I think I do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Many aircraft in the 10th and 14th as well as the CATF had the Disney Decal, but they weren't flown by the AVG

If you look closely, you'll se that the Disney tiger is leaping through the Chinese roundel in that photo, and is wearing an Uncle Sam top hat. The Rising Sun flag is displayed, torn by the tiger's claws. Looks like the 23rd to me- a USAAF outfit. They may have taken over the Flying Tiger's planes, but they weren't the real Flying Tigers, no matter what they or anyone else thinks in my opinion

In any case, being rude to me hardly proves your point. All the caps and exclamation points in the world don't make me right or wrong

~Edit

Baumler flew with the AVG before July 4th 1942 but wasn't in the AVG. he tried to join in '41 but Pearl Harbor happened. He finally caught up to the AVG a short time before it's disbandment, but he was definitely US regular Army

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 12:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I must say I disagree strongly with what you consider the Flying Tigers. I feel quite confident that AVG veterans would also disagree. NO US Army unit has been able to use the name "Flying Tigers', as condoned by the AVG, until quite recently, and there is a US Army unit flying A-10s that are Offically the Flying Tigers. Last time I checked, the FTA (Flying Tigers Association) was an AVG community. I will ask Chuck Baisden (sorry to drop the name if you're reading, Chuck) for the straight scoop when the AVG site comes back up. he was there, don't you know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AVG disbanded on July 4th 1942. Unless you can provide me with clear dates as to when these A6Ms showed up in China in Allied hands, I cannot say I lend your argument much weight

USAAF turned up in Kunming on June 22nd 1942 if I recall (I think I do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Many aircraft in the 10th and 14th as well as the CATF had the Disney Decal, but they weren't flown by the AVG

If you look closely, you'll se that the Disney tiger is leaping through the Chinese roundel in that photo, and is wearing an Uncle Sam top hat. The Rising Sun flag is displayed, torn by the tiger's claws. Looks like the 23rd to me- a USAAF outfit. They may have taken over the Flying Tiger's planes, but they weren't the real Flying Tigers, no matter what they or anyone else thinks in my opinion

In any case, being rude to me hardly proves your point. All the caps and exclamation points in the world don't make me right or wrong

~Edit

Baumler flew with the AVG before July 4th 1942 but wasn't in the AVG. he tried to join in '41 but Pearl Harbor happened. He finally caught up to the AVG a short time before it's disbandment, but he was definitely US regular Army </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif What happened Chuck?

VFThunderboy
08-07-2005, 02:40 PM
You forgot there were also a few KI-44's around Singapore....And what about Buffaloes? They shared the same bases often with the AVG...

Chuck_Older
08-07-2005, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VFS-214_Hawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I must say I disagree strongly with what you consider the Flying Tigers. I feel quite confident that AVG veterans would also disagree. NO US Army unit has been able to use the name "Flying Tigers', as condoned by the AVG, until quite recently, and there is a US Army unit flying A-10s that are Offically the Flying Tigers. Last time I checked, the FTA (Flying Tigers Association) was an AVG community. I will ask Chuck Baisden (sorry to drop the name if you're reading, Chuck) for the straight scoop when the AVG site comes back up. he was there, don't you know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AVG disbanded on July 4th 1942. Unless you can provide me with clear dates as to when these A6Ms showed up in China in Allied hands, I cannot say I lend your argument much weight

USAAF turned up in Kunming on June 22nd 1942 if I recall (I think I do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Many aircraft in the 10th and 14th as well as the CATF had the Disney Decal, but they weren't flown by the AVG

If you look closely, you'll se that the Disney tiger is leaping through the Chinese roundel in that photo, and is wearing an Uncle Sam top hat. The Rising Sun flag is displayed, torn by the tiger's claws. Looks like the 23rd to me- a USAAF outfit. They may have taken over the Flying Tiger's planes, but they weren't the real Flying Tigers, no matter what they or anyone else thinks in my opinion

In any case, being rude to me hardly proves your point. All the caps and exclamation points in the world don't make me right or wrong

~Edit

Baumler flew with the AVG before July 4th 1942 but wasn't in the AVG. he tried to join in '41 but Pearl Harbor happened. He finally caught up to the AVG a short time before it's disbandment, but he was definitely US regular Army </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif What happened Chuck? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, I'm disagreeing with you? It's not the end of the world, it's just that I disagree with you on these points

I disagree with the concept that the Flying Tigers was in existence after July 4th 1942, and I also can't concede that there wasn't a display A6M at Kunming before July 5th 1942 without some dates.

People can disagree without having a big fight...I think your use of caps ( "(NOT THE AVG! THE AVG HAD ALREADY BEEN DISBAND)" ) wasn't called for, but whatever it's not that big a deal, I just don't think that your assertion of this point in that way proves your point.

You mention that in '41, the A6M was captured...and then that's the last date. Since I was the one who mentioned the possibility that an A6M was at an AVG airbase at one time, and you clearly have refuted that, I conclude you were replying to me, and like I say, I don't agree with what you say about it. I won't be convinced until some dates are provided. I also cannot agree that any group other than the AVG were the Flying Tigers from July 5th 1942 until about 2004, when the FTA gave permission to an A-10 unit to officially use the name "Flying Tigers". I certainly don't agree that the 23rd was the Flying Tigers- the AVG wasn't a part of the US Army, while the 23 was. The Flying Tigers was a nickname given to the AVG by a reporter, not a nickname given to a US Army group or squadron

It's just a disagreement, everyone is still drawing breath http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 03:21 PM
How was I being rude to you? I never replied to your post.

I did not write what I posted....simply reprinted it from a web source I know longer know where I saved it from.

I think from here: http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/WarPrizes.htm

However, I agree there is no "Flying Tiger" after the AVG disbanded.

My post is a coincidence below your post and was not in ref to your post.

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">AVG disbanded on July 4th 1942. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
On another note, "AVG disbanded on July 4th 1942." The two A6M2s refered to in the above posts landed in November 41. By summers end in 1942, that would be somewhere around august, september 1942, the Chinese mechanics had it ready to fly...not the Americans.

In the meantime, in July 1942...as the AVG was disbanded..., The A6M from the Aleutians had been recovered by the US Navy.

It wasnt until October 1942 when Neumann related his meeting with Chennault about going to see the China A6M2.

So as you can see, the AVG disbaned in July 1942 three months before the China captured Zero was visited by an allied. ...and before the Aleutian Zero was even recovered from way up north in the cold area.


These are the facts, not speculations

Chuck_Older
08-07-2005, 03:46 PM
Ah, bad timing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif You can see how I thought it was directed to me, I think, since I mentioned the captured plane. i had no idea you had copied that; it looks like it's just something you typed up. Sorry

On the A6M~

"Ready to fly"...if it was being repaied in Kunming, it could potentially have been there well before July 4th

Do you have any insight into where it was repaired? I would assume Kunming because if not there, where else?

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 04:00 PM
Yes, I should have been clear what I was doing. If all the spelling is correct and it all looks conformed....it aint me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

However, to add a laugh here....was this in China?

http://www.j-aircraft.com/captured/testedby/me109/japanese-109-side.jpg

FF_Trozaka
08-07-2005, 05:52 PM
I have read about this, there was anymosity about the the army air corps using the flying tigers moniker after the AVG was disbanded. They inherited their planes and figured the name went with them , i guess. It is a sore matter with AVG veterans (check their website).
Those are not AVG pilots in the pic.
Also, capturing a parked aircraft still does not mean that you have flown against it in combat.
I will agree that ki43 and possibly A5M claudes and other older aircraft are more likely candidates for fighter aircraft that AVG actually flew against.
S!

BPLIzard
08-07-2005, 06:31 PM
+1.
Early during the war almost everything with the big red meatball was collectively called a Zero.

JFC_Warhawk
08-07-2005, 07:44 PM
Dropping my sensitivity a bit and putting my old military hat back on, I can see there is some interest here. Whether or not its about the server, I don't have a clue yet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

My earlier searches did not turn up much but sketchy references to zeros and the A6M, along with the P-40.

I need proper plane sets that are availble with PF and have to coincide with the established period I have proposed.

If you gents could be so kind as to post factual links to what actually flew, and is currently available in PF, then I will update accordingly before we go live with the campaign.

I would have liked to use china, but singapore is the only thing close enough, and was in the theater.

Apologies for ruffled feathers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 08:19 PM
JFC it really wasn't my intent to come across as a jerk, moron or whatever else I can be called. Some times it may not be any of my buisness...but I just hate to see inaccuaracies...even in my spelling...during "historic" documentations.

I just got finished a few weeks ago trying to tell a guy that the Taylorcraft L-2M never saw action in Europe...it never left the USA but he insisted that it flew along with the L-4 and L-5. I use to own one, L-2M SN# 5555, and flew a Stinson L-5 SN# 76-397 for 50 or so hours...anywho,

I can try to scurry up a few links for ya but as some guys already said; mostly Ki-43s, Ki-27s and A5Ms. However, the Chineese guys flew Curtiss Bi-planes as well as Russian stuff as well as some Fiats
http://users.senet.com.au/~mhyde/ww2_aircraft_china.htm#fighter

and here... http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 08:32 PM
IN here you can read daily accounts from records from Chinese....for example:

On 21 July an advance unit of six Mitsubishi A6Ms commanded by Lieutenant Tamotsu Yokoyama was transferred from the Yokosuka Kokutai, where they were undergoing actual testing, to the city of Wuhan.
Soon thereafter nine more of the new fighters were transported locally by air.

19 August 1940
On 19 August twelve Mitsubishi A6M Zeros led by Lieutenant Tamotsu Yokoyama took part in their first attack on Chongqing when they escorted 50 bombers, but did not meet any opposition in the air.

When the 14th Kokutai returned to southern China in September the fighter daitai was supplied with nine Mitsubishi A6Ms

13 September 1940
On 13 September 1940, Major Louie Yim-Qun was commander of 28th PS, stationed at Wenchiang near Chengdu.
During the day he took off with six I-15bis and refuelled at Suining (150 km NW of Chongqing). He joined a formation with 19 I-15bis and nine I-16s commanded by Major Cheng Hsiao-Yu of the 4th PG.
At 10:00, Liu Chi-Han, base commander of Suining received a report that Japanese planes were flying towards Chongqing and ordered the planes to take off. The I-16s, commanded by Squadron Leader Captain Yang Meng-Ging of the 24th PS, flew at 4500 meters and provided top cover for the I-15bis at 3500 meters.
The enemy aircraft sighted were 13 Mitsubishi A6M €˜Zero€ fighters from the 12th Kokutai led by Lieutenant Saburo Shindo, which during the day escorted twenty-seven G3M2s to Chongqing. After that the bombers left the target, a Mitsubishi C5M1 reconnaissance aircraft radioed the Japanese fighters that Chinese fighters had been seen near Pi-sham.
As Chinese fighters were flying southeast, near Bei Shan, 40 km west of Chongqing, Captain Yang€s planes were hit by the Zeroes diving out of the sun and went down in flames and his deputy was wounded. The I-15bis were hit as they tried to climb into the sun. Without radios, they could not communicate with one another. They were out of formation and fought on their own. Cheng Hsiao-Yu led the entire 22nd PS into battle, and in the battle Captain Zhang Hong was killed. A group of nine I-15bis from the 28th PS led by Louie Yim-Qun engaged the Zeros over Chongqing. Two of the I-15bis were shot down. The Japanese Zeroes, with their high speed, amazing climbing ability, agility and firepower, totally dominated the fight. After half an hour€s battle most of the surviving Chinese planes were low on fuel and had to break off action.
This battle was debut of the Zero fighter and the Chinese Air Force suffered its worst defeat. Ten pilots were killed in action and eight were injured. Thirteen aircraft were destroyed and most of the ones that returned to base were badly damaged (11 were reported as damaged). Major Louie Yim-Qun was one of the injured in the fight. He landed his badly shot up I-15bis at Suining and counted 48 bullet holes on it. At least two pilots from 21st PS were killed and one more aircraft was hit, making a forced landing, the wounded pilot suffering a leg shot off, and later dying from loss of blood.
All 13 Zeroes returned safely (four were slightly damaged) to their Hankou Base claiming 27 victories (both I-16s and I-15bis). All 13 Japanese pilot made claims in this combat; Lieutenant Saburo Shindo (leader 1st shotai, 1st chutai) claimed 1, PO1c Saburo Kitahata (1st shotai, 1st chutai) 2, PO2c Yoshio Oki (1st shotai, 1st chutai) 4, PO2c Kihei Fujiwara (1st shotai, 1st chutai) 1, Warrant Officer Koshiro Yama****a (leader 2nd shotai, 1st chutai) 5, PO2c Toshiyuki Sueda (2nd shotai, 1st chutai) 2, PO3c Hatsumasa Yamaya (2nd shotai, 1st chutai) 2, Lieutenant (junior grade) Aya-o Shirane (leader 1st shotai, 2nd chutai) 1, PO1c Masayuki Mitsumasa (1st shotai, 2nd chutai) 2, PO2c Tsutomu Iwai (1st shotai, 2nd chutai) 2, PO1c Tora-ichi Takatsuka (leader 2nd shotai, 2nd chutai) 3, PO3c Kazuki Mikami (2nd shotai, 2nd chutai) 2 and PO3c Masaharu Hiramoto (2nd shotai, 2nd chutai) 1. The last of Yama****a€s claims had been pursued to within fifty meters of the ground and then forced to crash into a rice paddy.
After this Yama****a and Saburo Kitahata flew a spectacular loop-the-loop fifty meters over the Paishih Railroad Station.

Regards,

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 08:57 PM
20 May 1941
PO1c Ei-ichi Kimura (Otsu 5) of the 12th Kokutai was shot down and killed by AA fire over Central China during the day. (first A6M2 loss)

23 June 1941
PO1c Kishiro Kobayashi (Pilot 48) of the 12th Kokutai was shot down and killed by AA fire over Lanzhou during the day. (second and last A6M2 loss in China before Pearl)



By the beginning of June 1941 the commander of the 3rd PG, Lo Ying-Teh with parts of the command and flying staff were sent to Rangoon, Burma, to take delivery of the Hawk 81A (P-40C) which had been purchased in America. After trying the combat capabilities of these aircraft however, they determined that they would not be able to stand up against the Zero (dummies, of corse not in a turn fight). Therefore the transfer was declined and the aircraft were delivered to Claire Chennault€s Flying Tigers



The 59th Sentai at Hankou was selected as the first unit to receive the new Nakajima Ki-43 Type 1 Fighter €˜Hayabusa€ (€˜Oscar€). The unit returned to Japan during June-August 1941 to collect some 30 examples of the Ki-43-Ia, which were then flown to Hankou. During these ferry flights and in training flights, folds began appearing in the wings following sharp turns and several mid-air disintegrations occurred. Four or five aircraft out of 20 examined proved to have defects in the wing construction, and at once the Sentai€s ground personnel attempted to install reinforcement. Their efforts proved to be in vain, and the major part of the unit therefore returned to Tachikawa in October to convert to the €"Ib model.


18 August 1941
The Japanese flew a reconnaissance sortie over Kyedaw on 18 August to reconnaissance on the AVG.

On 15 September 1941 the 12th and 14th Kokutais was disbanded as a result of reorganisation. Most pilots of the 12th Kokutai were transferred to the Tainan Kokutai or to the 3rd Kokutai.

24 October 1941
On 24 October nine Ki-43s of the 59th Sentai flew the first operational mission by this aircraft, a sortie over Henyang.

In December(41') the 59th Sentai flew its new Ki-43-Ibs to Kompong Trach in Indochina the day before the outbreak of the Pacific War.

During the second half of 1941 almost all (? how many) Zeros had been transferred from China to the Pacific Ocean in preparation to the attack on Pearl Harbour. (out of 12, two were lost, so how many of the remaining ten were left?)

Tater-SW-
08-07-2005, 09:29 PM
FWIW, the first AVG combat mission was Dec 20, 1941 I believe. That or the 23d, I'd have to check.

tater

JFC_Warhawk
08-07-2005, 09:30 PM
??? So by your posted account, the A6M2 did participate in the campaign. Your account is that the P-40 never fought against them while they were in china. The fact that they were there makes the planeset I have chosen valid for the time period and theater choice. The fact that they did not meet up historically is irrelevant.

I do need to add some more planes, however.

I will check out the links tomorrow, getting late here.

I appreciate your help.

Regards.

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 09:34 PM
well to answer you there, you are correct, however Almost all of the 10 (2 shot down by AA) A6M2 Model 11s were removed from China during the first half, say about June 41, for the attack on Pearl. So, if you want to add say, one two or even three A6M2s to your campain, go ahead. BY the time the AVG started flying, the A6M2s were gone. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

It is not realistic to have them fight against the AVG as will happen in your campain. If you want to have them vs some I-16s, by all means thats realistic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 09:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
FWIW, the first AVG combat mission was Dec 20, 1941 I believe. That or the 23d, I'd have to check.

tater </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I will check...but they first flew; "24 October 41, the three Squadron Leaders of the AVG, Robert Sandell (1st Sq.), John Newkirk (2nd Sq.) and Arvid Olson (3rd Sq.) flew a reconnaissance mission into Thailand for signs of a Japanese build-up, but found nothing."

Then
26 October 1941
The Japanese flew a reconnaissance sortie over Kyedaw on 26 October to reconnaissance on the AVG. Five P-40s made a fruitless effort to intercept them.

28 October 1941
During the day the Japanese again flew reconnaissance sortie over Kyedaw. The AVG again made a fruitless effort to intercept them, even if one of the intercepting pilots, Eriksen Shilling of the 2nd Sq. got close enough to count five aircraft.

This is what I see for 20 December;
20 December 1941
On 20 December the 84th I F Chutai, based in Indochina, escorted Ki-48s of the 82nd I F Chutai to attack Kunming. The escort turned back at the Indochina-Yunnan border.
16 P-40s from the 1st Sq., AVG, were in the air between 10:00 €" 11:20 led by Squadron Leader Sandell followed by four from the 2nd Sq., which was to patrol over Wu Chi Ba. Four more from the 2nd Sq. took off led by Squadron Leader John Newkirk and this section intercepted the Japanese aircraft but was not able to close in on them.
The Ki-48s fled but was attacked by the 1st Sq., which attacked in full force south-east of Kunming. The 1st Sq. returned claiming at least five bombers shot down; Fritz Wolfe claimed two, Sandell claimed one, Louis Hoffman claimed one and the fifth was claimed by Ed Rector of the 2nd Sq., who had taken off after all the other aircraft and subsequently claimed one bomber. Charles Bond claimed two damaged bombers while Camille Rosbert claimed hits on a bomber. During the return flight Rector ran out of fuel and made a forced-landing in his P-40, wrecking it.
It seems that three Ki-48s were shot down during the combat and a fourth was lost during the return flight.
After this, all three squadrons of AVG volunteers found themselves rotated through both Kunming and Rangoon.

JFC_Warhawk
08-07-2005, 09:43 PM
Do you sit here in the forum all day? LOL

I was just reading a few things before I signed off and saw your quick response(s)

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 10:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JFC_Warhawk:
??? So by your posted account, the A6M2 did participate in the campaign. Your account is that the P-40 never fought against them while they were in china. The fact that they were there makes the planeset I have chosen valid for the time period and theater choice. The fact that they did not meet up historically is irrelevant.

I do need to add some more planes, however.

I will check out the links tomorrow, getting late here.

I appreciate your help.

Regards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets see if I can make this a little clearer...maybe I will learn something as well !!


A6M2 Model 11 (no tail hook)

Suposidly only 12 airplanes assigned to the 12th Kokutai by Sept 1940. Two shot down by AA leaving 10 by June 23, 1940. 15 Sept the 12th was disbanded and most pilots of the 12th Kokutai were transferred to the Tainan Kokutai or to the 3rd Kokutai. As for the A6Ms, they were transfered to the 3rd Kokutia untill October 1941. Almost all of the 10 A6M2s had been transfered to the Pacific during the second half of 1941...so between July and October almost all of the A6M2s were gone. SO how many were left? I dont know but what is almost all of ten? What good is one or two Zeros? Not only that but the the A6M2 is noted as not being used by the end of October. The AVG didnt see any combat untill 26 October. So basicly there were no A6M2s there while the AVG were in combat. HOWEVER, the Ki-43 was now getting hot and heavy and were now being called "zeros".

VFS-214_Hawk
08-07-2005, 10:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JFC_Warhawk:
Do you sit here in the forum all day? LOL

I was just reading a few things before I signed off and saw your quick response(s) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just today trying to help you...if you dont want it, I will go to bed. Its 12:16 here

VFThunderboy
08-07-2005, 11:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I will agree that ki43 and possibly A5M claudes and other older aircraft are more likely candidates for fighter aircraft that AVG actually flew against.
S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you mean KI-27's. The Claude was Navy, therefore more likely to see a Zero.

You guys are sure slow with the links...


http://home.att.net/~ww2aircraft/RTSmith3.html

http://home.att.net/~ww2aircraft/Ki27nate.jpg

VFS-214_Hawk
08-08-2005, 05:11 AM
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese-1941.htm

Chuck_Older
08-08-2005, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JFC_Warhawk:
??? So by your posted account, the A6M2 did participate in the campaign. Your account is that the P-40 never fought against them while they were in china. The fact that they were there makes the planeset I have chosen valid for the time period and theater choice. The fact that they did not meet up historically is irrelevant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you say it's a historic server, though, right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Not being a jerk, but it was your intent to have an accurate campaign by my recollection

"The objective is to play a historical campaign utilizing teamwork to achieve victory"

So, logically, the Ki-43 is your plane of choice. I think that the planeset you're using is fine, but I also think that calling it historic is wrong- it didn't happen. Putting an aircraft in that didn't fight against the AVG is one step removed from a 'what-if' scenario. Which is fine, I can't argue, it's your campaign. But historically accurate is something it can't be. I mean, the Curtiss Demon was available and actually there, but not flown in combat. A factory was actually set up in Burma to produce them. So to me using the A6M would be like having the AVG forces flying the Demon (if we had it of course). Just because it existed and was there doesn't mean it was used in combat

Just trying to help

PS

as for maps, you have choices that aren't maps of China, but are very useful. For instance, I used the Balaton map for Yunnan Province in my AVG campaign

FF_Trozaka
08-08-2005, 01:29 PM
http://www.warbirdforum.com/planes.htm

also, although the A5M Claude was very popular with navy pilots, there were other variants and from what i have read they were used in china. My point was only that it would be more likely that the AVG might have run into A5Ms than A6Ms.

S!

JFC_Warhawk
08-08-2005, 02:59 PM
To make it as historic as possible, we would need more planes (that we don't have).

Singapore was indeed invaded by the Japanese during their conquest of China. While singapore is not in china, it is the only map provided that fit into that theater.

The server is going up today and will include the KI-43 and A6M against the P-40.

This probably won't be running very long because the pacific theater campaign will be replacing it when I finish it. I just thought I would try to provide a DF campaign that was playable and enjoyable. AVG is a test to see if people like the concept.

Thank you all for your input. See you in the skies.

VFS-214_Hawk
08-08-2005, 03:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FF_Trozaka:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/planes.htm

also, although the A5M Claude was very popular with navy pilots, there were other variants and from what i have read they were used in china. My point was only that it would be more likely that the AVG might have run into A5Ms than A6Ms.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


They (AVG) did shoot at A5Ms.

VFS-214_Hawk
08-08-2005, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JFC_Warhawk:
To make it as historic as possible, we would need more planes (that we don't have).

Singapore was indeed invaded by the Japanese during their conquest of China. While singapore is not in china, it is the only map provided that fit into that theater.

The server is going up today and will include the KI-43 and A6M against the P-40.

This probably won't be running very long because the pacific theater campaign will be replacing it when I finish it. I just thought I would try to provide a DF campaign that was playable and enjoyable. AVG is a test to see if people like the concept.

Thank you all for your input. See you in the skies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


This is were you may want to take it a step furture and call it a spacific fight or month as I have done with VMF-214. Find a spacific battle and recreat that!

VFS-214_Hawk
08-08-2005, 04:34 PM
guys guys guys guys

You keep "thinking" what the AVG "may" have faught against.

Go here and read each mission;
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese-1941.htm

same link go to the bottom of the page and it list each and every aircraft the flew during that time

The web site gives detail from 1937 to 1945

also, go to the main page and select what dates you want to read about...here;
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm

Its all there
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
08-08-2005, 08:23 PM
OK, I have been thinking about all of this and once again I have become very interested in the whole Chinese conflict. However, refering back to the AVG I got to wondering....Why did they indentify the IJN planes as "Zeros"?

Here is what I find...and is 100% my opinion.

The IJNAF introduced a state of the art fighter to China in August 1940. This fighter shot down everything and suffered NOT one loss of its own to enemy aircraft. Now, if you were there, what would you think? WOW, A SUPER FIGHTER! Inte reports say it is some sort of "Zero", maybe from the red meatballs?, because it is a Type "0 (zero)" fighter? For whatever reason, its called a Zero.

Now, the Zero (A6M2-11) was transfered from China by mid 41 which coralates to the last large mission I see which was in May 41. I dont see anything untill the squadrons were eventually disbanded by September 41.

Now between June and August, the Ki-43 was entering service but did not see action untill 24 October.

SO what we have here is four months of no A6Ms or Ki-43 in action...why? Well due to the fear of the super zero and almost all of China's fighters being whiped out, China ordered thier fighters NOT TO ENGUAGE.

Well now the AVG are in action and probably looking for this Super Zero. Why havent they seen it or have they? Is the super zero really the Claud? Who knows what they were thinking but all of a sudden here comes the Ki-43. It looks much like the Zero. DO the AVG know that the Zero was transfered from China? DO they know that there were only 15 there to begin with? Who knows!!!!

Put yourself in thier shoes knowing or NOT knowing the truths.

Now the Ki-43 is being called the Super "Zero" mabe because its not so easy to ID in such quick and fast dogfights. All of a suden, the super "zero" aint so super!!!

You have to remember they lived this out day by day and not thorugh history books like we live it. The AVG antisapated having to go up and fight a "Super Zero" that they did not know had already left China when they started combat! However, the Ki-43 by no means was a push over and could still kick you butt if you were not carefull. However, I still think the Tigers could have easily handled the Zeros using the same basic Tactics that they had already learned from Chennault's teachings from "documents?" about the Zero.

Maybe this will help some of you understand where the confusion MAY have come from.

Nevrtheless, the AVG never faught the A6M2 in China.

Now, taking that and applying it to the Navy's pilots tactics for Pearl and Midway........well thats another story.

Chuck_Older
08-09-2005, 10:08 AM
While that may seem logical, you're forgetting that planes before the A6M had Hinomarus (meatballs) on them, and those planes weren't called "Zeroes"

The A6M was the Zero because it was the Type 0 which referred to year of service


In the case of the AVG, they were drawn from the ranks of the US Military don't forget. The US military called the A6M the "Zero" and they therefore also called the A6M the Zero.

It's easy to forget that the AVG didn't spring up overnight, and that they actually had a lot of experience before they signed on with Chennault. They were given extensive training in Japanese tactics, and even had access to Japanese training manuals (translated of course), all basically from Chennault's personal notes, from his years of experience in China- he'd been there well before the '40s

Tater-SW-
08-09-2005, 10:31 AM
If it has A6Ms it ain't an "AVG" server, it's something else. Not that it wouldn;t be fun, but it won't be AVG.

tater

VFS-214_Hawk
08-09-2005, 03:14 PM
Good thoughts Chuck

I must agree....I am sure the allies may have evn known about the A6M before it rolled off the assembly line. I must admit now that they were looking for the A6M Zero and just confused it with the Ki-43 calling it a "zero". I always thought they called the A6M series Zeros because of the Type "0" that it was....what ya think? Zero-Sen ????

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
01-01-2007, 08:35 PM
Chris_Blair

I hope you get the WTCF updated when all your real life problems settle down. I can not wait to fly your updated WTCF!

&lt;S&gt;<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did I mention we need the "Slot" map for us PTO flyers?

http://f4ucorsair.com/bentwing%20Pictures/bumpersticker.jpg

XyZspineZyX
01-02-2007, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VFS-214_Hawk:
Chris_Blair

I hope you get the WTCF updated when all your real life problems settle down. I can not wait to fly your updated WTCF!

&lt;S&gt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

TC_Stele
01-03-2007, 03:33 PM
I have to say that I'm somewhat devestated finding out that the AVG never flew against the AM6 series. In the pilot accounts, I've always heard them refer to the Japanese fighters as Zeros. Later, I found out that they were referring to other fighters as Zero, such as referring to the Claude and Ki-27 as the "Fixed Gear Zero," the Oscar as the "Army Zero," and so forth. Still, I always thought they at least faced the A6M Zeros, but now I'm finding out from this thread they they NEVER fought them.

I find it hard to believe, but I'll take your guys' word for it they they never fought the A6M series in large numbers.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

=====================
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9899/il2siggx3.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
01-03-2007, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TC_Stele:
I find it hard to believe, but I'll take your guys' word for it they they never fought the A6M series in large numbers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They never fought them at all. never! As I said, there were only 12 A6M2-11 (no arrester hook) in China. They were removed before the AVG even showed up!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did I mention we need the "Slot" map for us PTO flyers?

http://f4ucorsair.com/bentwing%20Pictures/bumpersticker.jpg

pacettid
01-03-2007, 08:14 PM
Informative threads like this, and the sim itself are great venues for learning about WWII aviation...I learn something new every day.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

All the best, Don

LEBillfish
01-03-2007, 10:14 PM
p.s.....There are a number of significant write ups I'll let you all look for on j-aircraft.com and elsewhere that strongly suggests that though most Ki-43-I's were of what we call the "C" configuration, in truth most were "B's" as a field modification.

At the time, Ki-43's went through rapid changes, Nakajima very dilligent in continual improvement aspects....The Type 89 gun initially more available so used for what were initial production planes, the combination set up using a Type 89 & a Ho-103 again the same with production slated for 2-Ho-103 to be used.

However, the Ho-103 was "reported" to be prone to jamming one explination, so a Type 89 used along side for back up.....Additionally it was speculated that Ho-103 replacements, and or ammo shortages contributed to the combination set up.

What is known however is that the Ki-43-I service manual contained instructions for the field retrofitting of Type 89 in place of the Ho-103 (naturally that working both ways)....So it is believed and somewhat proven out via ammunition requisitions, wreck inspections etc., that the version we have in the sim being the "B" would be the most likely candidate.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK">"Does this make my Hien look big?"
"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>