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View Full Version : Ever shoot down a fighter in a Stuka?



cawimmer430
10-02-2005, 11:25 AM
Hi,

New member here. I've been playing IL-2 and Pacific Fighter for about 9 months now and I'm about to get the Ace Expansion pack. IMO, these games can't be touched in terms of realism etc. I've tried Silent Hunter III but I'm a better pilot than captain! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Anyway, last night I had this crazy idea of dogfighting an enemy with a Ju-87 Stuka! I know how crazy that sounds, considering the Stuka is very slow (but turns nicely). So I set my enemy to the Polish PZL P.11 at an altitude of 1,000 meters Skill: Average. During the frontal encounter, he came straight at me and fired off a salvo. I barrel rolled right but his bullets tore some minor holes in my left wing. Nothing to worry about for the moment but this dude was serious. I find that the Stuka turns quite nicely so I increased power to 110% and went into a diving turn to get my speed up. The PZL had already turned and was coming in for a second try but this time I fired first which sent him evading my fire, therefore ruining his attack run. My rear gunner then started firing and this annoyed me since I wanted to claim the kill (if I survived). I was in a better position this time since the P.11 was straight ahead with its back facing me. I had slightly more alttitude and increased power to 110% and dived slightly to gain precious speed. I think the Stuka has a quicker top speed than the PZL so I gained on him and fired off some rounds into his cockpit at around 100-150 meters distance. Still, he kept evading but I had inflicted some damage. Suddenly he yawed hard left and I found myself decreasing throttle to 20% and yanking the stick to the left and follow him. I know what he was trying to do. Well, to make a long story short, I shot up his plane a few times until he was emitting black smoke. Must have gotten the oil cooler. But I never shot him down, his plane just stopped responding and he bailed out. I was having problems of my own. During these skirmishes, sometimes he'd be behind me again and my left wing was trailing black smoke and I had a fuel tank leak: a bad one since my fuel clock was draining at an alarming rate. I didn't bother heading back to base since the Stuka looked like it would explode anytime. There was no point in gaining altitude since I was around 300 meters high. I found a nice place to land and brought the Junkers down. Me and my gunner escaped the plane. It didn't blow up but the whole thing was surrounded by black smoke. I could just see the wing tips, propeller and tail! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Well...I didn't shoot down a PZL in the Stuka, but I sure did my part in bringing it down. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

-Christian W.

cawimmer430
10-02-2005, 11:25 AM
Hi,

New member here. I've been playing IL-2 and Pacific Fighter for about 9 months now and I'm about to get the Ace Expansion pack. IMO, these games can't be touched in terms of realism etc. I've tried Silent Hunter III but I'm a better pilot than captain! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Anyway, last night I had this crazy idea of dogfighting an enemy with a Ju-87 Stuka! I know how crazy that sounds, considering the Stuka is very slow (but turns nicely). So I set my enemy to the Polish PZL P.11 at an altitude of 1,000 meters Skill: Average. During the frontal encounter, he came straight at me and fired off a salvo. I barrel rolled right but his bullets tore some minor holes in my left wing. Nothing to worry about for the moment but this dude was serious. I find that the Stuka turns quite nicely so I increased power to 110% and went into a diving turn to get my speed up. The PZL had already turned and was coming in for a second try but this time I fired first which sent him evading my fire, therefore ruining his attack run. My rear gunner then started firing and this annoyed me since I wanted to claim the kill (if I survived). I was in a better position this time since the P.11 was straight ahead with its back facing me. I had slightly more alttitude and increased power to 110% and dived slightly to gain precious speed. I think the Stuka has a quicker top speed than the PZL so I gained on him and fired off some rounds into his cockpit at around 100-150 meters distance. Still, he kept evading but I had inflicted some damage. Suddenly he yawed hard left and I found myself decreasing throttle to 20% and yanking the stick to the left and follow him. I know what he was trying to do. Well, to make a long story short, I shot up his plane a few times until he was emitting black smoke. Must have gotten the oil cooler. But I never shot him down, his plane just stopped responding and he bailed out. I was having problems of my own. During these skirmishes, sometimes he'd be behind me again and my left wing was trailing black smoke and I had a fuel tank leak: a bad one since my fuel clock was draining at an alarming rate. I didn't bother heading back to base since the Stuka looked like it would explode anytime. There was no point in gaining altitude since I was around 300 meters high. I found a nice place to land and brought the Junkers down. Me and my gunner escaped the plane. It didn't blow up but the whole thing was surrounded by black smoke. I could just see the wing tips, propeller and tail! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Well...I didn't shoot down a PZL in the Stuka, but I sure did my part in bringing it down. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

-Christian W.

Pirschjaeger
10-02-2005, 11:33 AM
You have been assimilated, resistance was futile, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Welcome aboard. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I took down a La7 while flying the Ju-87 online once. That was both cool and embarrassing; cool for me. Sometimes I like to mix up the possiblities. Try flying the A20 against 4 early Il-2's. Thats fun.

Fritz

cawimmer430
10-02-2005, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
You have been assimilated, resistance was futile, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Welcome aboard. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I took down a La7 while flying the Ju-87 online once. That was both cool and embarrassing; cool for me. Sometimes I like to mix up the possiblities. Try flying the A20 against 4 early Il-2's. Thats fun.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Danke Fritz. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That La7 pilot must have been a beginner. I know that when I was new to IL-2 and PF, a Stuka pilot could have had a field day with me even if I was flying a ME-262! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

-Christian W.

Pirschjaeger
10-02-2005, 11:40 AM
If you have lots of time, patience, unlimited ammo and unlimited fuel, fly a P11 against 4 YP80's. You'll kill some time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Not recommended if you are married. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

cawimmer430
10-02-2005, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
If you have lots of time, patience, unlimited ammo and unlimited fuel, fly a P11 against 4 YP80's. You'll kill some time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Not recommended if you are married. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I don't like the P11 much. It turns nicely but that's about it! I can't even catch up to the Heinkel He-111's with it! A UVS-2 or a TB-3 for sure however! Oh and don't worry, I'm not married yet! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

-Christian W.

Pirschjaeger
10-02-2005, 11:57 AM
Yes, the P11 is pretty slow. You have to let the enemy attack; that's your only chance. It should have been named "1P"; short for "1 Pass" cause that's all you'll get. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have found it interesting to have enemy TB3's at 500m alt. The gunners can easily tear you apart so you have to attack from below and get away before the gunners can get you. Them you'll need 11 passes.

Other than that, I only use it to kill time. I like ripping the landing gear off. I do this by using the mountain peaks.

Another time killer; use the Il-2 with the napalm(VAP250). Come from underneath the TB3 and when you are in the right position, roast it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
10-02-2005, 12:01 PM
Hey Christian, what country are you in. I saw your pic in the other thread and it's obvious you are in Europe, yes, no?

Fritz

civildog
10-02-2005, 12:16 PM
It's not so crazy as you think: in 43 the LW created the Nachtschlachtgruppen on the Eastern Front to counter the night atacks by the VVS Po-2's. They used Gotha 145's and Arado biplanes until later introducing D-3 and D-5 Stukas.

Flame dampeners and flash hiders were added to the exhaust stacks and wing guns. The dive brakes were removed since they only made level bombing runs.

A couple of pathfinding Stukas would mark the target area with flares on moonlit nights. The rest would then make strafing and level bombing runs. They were also used to scramble against night attacks by Russian aircraft on supply depots. Spolights would light up the inbound Po-2's and the Stukas (now designated D-7 and D-8) were found to be extremely effective against the little biplanes because ot thier excellent low speed handling and rear gunner.

The units that used them were Nachtschlachtgruppen 1,2,4,8,9, and 10. They flew in Italy, the East and West Fronts, and until the end of the war.

I have a coop mission I developed for an attack on a VVS airfield by a group of these stukas. The scrambling VVS uses Yaks.

F19_Ob
10-02-2005, 01:14 PM
He he http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif good story

I have done that stunt aswell on a few occasions online.
One of the later stukas has two 20mm cannons (fighterpunch) and once a furball swooped over me.
The enemy fighters didn't pay much attention to a stuka with enemyfighters close by, wich allowed me to target some of the lower participants, although on long range (snappshots as I passed them).
I shot down a spitfire and got a few shots on a P40 wich crashed from damaged controls moments later.
a minute later i managed to hit another spit in the goaround but he turned on me and hit me bad so I finally had to bail. My reargunner apparently hit the spit so he had to bail too.
I counted my kills while hanging in my chute and thought three fighters was a good tradeoff for my stuka.
-------------------------

Another time I was in a randomly gathered team of seven or perhaps 8 early stukas (peashooters).
Somewhere along the mission one of us was jumped by a hurricane. It didn't take long before 5 or so stukas turned on the unfortunate hurricane pouring peas on him and finally downing him into the sea.
Most of the stukas returned to base in a group.
A fantastic sortie since we hit several enemy ships in the process.

Lovely plane. We stukaboys should stay together more often http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

F19_Olli72
10-02-2005, 01:20 PM
Though Sturmovik is the best bomber-fighter (not fighter-bomber) be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Kuna15
10-02-2005, 01:21 PM
Against P.11s I have scored PKs. Rear ai gunner although equipped with 7,62mm machine gun is efficient for pilot kills vs enemy fighter.

Stukas "D" model (and Gustavs too) have decent firepower and posses serious threat to Spitfires specifically because Spitfire has vulnerable engine.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-02-2005, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
Hi,

New member here. I've been playing IL-2 and Pacific Fighter for about 9 months now and I'm about to get the Ace Expansion pack. IMO, these games can't be touched in terms of realism etc. I've tried Silent Hunter III but I'm a better pilot than captain! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Anyway, last night I had this crazy idea of dogfighting an enemy with a Ju-87 Stuka! I know how crazy that sounds, considering the Stuka is very slow (but turns nicely). So I set my enemy to the Polish PZL P.11 at an altitude of 1,000 meters Skill: Average. During the frontal encounter, he came straight at me and fired off a salvo. I barrel rolled right but his bullets tore some minor holes in my left wing. Nothing to worry about for the moment but this dude was serious. I find that the Stuka turns quite nicely so I increased power to 110% and went into a diving turn to get my speed up. The PZL had already turned and was coming in for a second try but this time I fired first which sent him evading my fire, therefore ruining his attack run. My rear gunner then started firing and this annoyed me since I wanted to claim the kill (if I survived). I was in a better position this time since the P.11 was straight ahead with its back facing me. I had slightly more alttitude and increased power to 110% and dived slightly to gain precious speed. I think the Stuka has a quicker top speed than the PZL so I gained on him and fired off some rounds into his cockpit at around 100-150 meters distance. Still, he kept evading but I had inflicted some damage. Suddenly he yawed hard left and I found myself decreasing throttle to 20% and yanking the stick to the left and follow him. I know what he was trying to do. Well, to make a long story short, I shot up his plane a few times until he was emitting black smoke. Must have gotten the oil cooler. But I never shot him down, his plane just stopped responding and he bailed out. I was having problems of my own. During these skirmishes, sometimes he'd be behind me again and my left wing was trailing black smoke and I had a fuel tank leak: a bad one since my fuel clock was draining at an alarming rate. I didn't bother heading back to base since the Stuka looked like it would explode anytime. There was no point in gaining altitude since I was around 300 meters high. I found a nice place to land and brought the Junkers down. Me and my gunner escaped the plane. It didn't blow up but the whole thing was surrounded by black smoke. I could just see the wing tips, propeller and tail! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Well...I didn't shoot down a PZL in the Stuka, but I sure did my part in bringing it down. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

-Christian W. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

UKD1 has a Polish campaign map with Stukas vs P11s. It's primarily ground attack but the Stuka has a nice speed and climb advantage over the P11 so you can always turn to bnz after dropping your load.

There's nothing quite like turning on the dive siren during a bnz attack http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Stigler_9_JG52
10-02-2005, 04:42 PM
I've done it a few times. Once I survived a 1 vs. 3 in a Stuka; I shot one, forced another to auger in and sent the last one packing. I had absorbed some damage during the scrap, so I had to ditch once I made landfall again, so I didn't get to enjoy an rtb.

For the most part, you can only get a kill in a Stuka against a highly impatient or overconfident opponent who slows down enough to where they can't escape fast enough when you turn the tables on them. I would never go looking for a fight in a Ju87, though: I would just realize that, if getting shot down while fleeing is the only other option, at least I have a small chance if I attempt to mix it up.

I've also scored in Stukas in Warbirds and in WWIIOL, against human opponents. In Warbirds, I remember a invitation-only event, simulating the Battle of Britain where I got a double (one with guns, another auger kill, plus a ship sunk over the target) and made it home to Calais!!! Some of the Allied pilots came from the cream of the Warbirds crop at the time, so I was especially proud of that.

ImpStarDuece
10-02-2005, 04:57 PM
I shot down a La-5FN online in a Ju-87 D, with my foward guns too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

He approached me head on and quite fast at about 500m altitude. We both traded shots and then slung ourselves into hard, flat horizontal turns. The pilot obviously fairly inexperianced and thought that he was safe and unbeatable in a LA-5 against a Ju-87. He refused to go into the vertical, just kept making high speed, head on runs at me then turning desperately to attempt to get on my tail.

The Stuka may be big and cumberesome, but it has a HUGE wingspan and actully quite a small turn radius. At slow speeds I was eventually able to gain a slight advantage and flamed up the LA-5s engine in a 5 degree off pass. It would of taken about 4 or 5 go-arounds until I was able to shoot him down. Laughed about it the whole way back to base though.

LEXX_Luthor
10-02-2005, 05:16 PM
wimmer:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Stuka ... PZL P.11 ... I know how crazy that sounds... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<span class="ev_code_yellow">Frank Neubert and the First WW-II Air Victory</span> ~&gt; http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/neubert/neubert.htm

You are right, war sounds crazy.

wimmer:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But I never shot him down, his plane just stopped responding and he bailed out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He bailed -- you shot him down, and you saw it. Sometimes it worked like that back in WW2, and the victor was not always aware of his/her victory and other pilots or surface troops may have witnessed the final result, but sometimes not so it was considered a "probable" or "damaged" victory. Sometimes, air combat victories are confirmed after the war.

Waldo.Pepper
10-02-2005, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Spolights would light up the inbound Po-2's and the Stukas (now designated D-7 and D-8) were found to be extremely effective against the little biplanes because ot thier excellent low speed handling and rear gunner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What source have you for this that Stukas were used to counter the Po-2's like you have described?

hobnail
10-02-2005, 07:26 PM
Its pretty well accepted that the Germans pressed the Stuka into action as a night-interceptor against biplanes such as the Po-2

/me goes off to retrieve my book on the Nightwitches, pretty sure it's mentioned in there.

gx-warspite
10-02-2005, 07:42 PM
Ju-86G vs a Yak. I assume he thought I was in a D-model, because he went for a head-on. Bet he was surprised.

Waldo.Pepper
10-02-2005, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ts pretty well accepted that the Germans pressed the Stuka into action as a night-interceptor against biplanes such as the Po-2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Source please.
I think this is dead wrong.
It is accepted tht they used it emulating the Po-2's not hunting them.

Certainly there were isolated instances but it was never institutionalized, unless someone can reference something different.

Badsight.
10-02-2005, 09:37 PM
i love Sturmovik versus Stuka DF's

the Val too

but only in the D5 Stuka , Stukas nearly seem to float when low & slow , dont under-estimate a Val , amazing turn ability

TC_Stele
10-02-2005, 09:45 PM
Yes. I took down 2 pilots in the Ju87G!! The G!!

It was on the 334th Dedicated server. Everyone took a laught when I flew it but raised an eyebrow when I shot down 2 pilots.

Kuna15
10-02-2005, 10:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
i love Sturmovik versus Stuka DF's

the Val too

but only in the D5 Stuka , Stukas nearly seem to float when low & slow , dont under-estimate a Val , amazing turn ability </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Val is annoyingly manouverable. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Good D3A driver will outsmart me in Hurricane using manouverability + airbrake.

Badsight.
10-02-2005, 10:36 PM
ha ha! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

(i jumped 2 guys in Vals one night - easy 200 points so i thought , reality bite's - i made the RTB only by running my a$$ off)

IL2-chuter
10-03-2005, 12:49 AM
Got a Spit with a high deflection 37mm shot, pure luck. Got quite a few kills with the D-5 (why no void for this yet?).



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

FritzGryphon
10-03-2005, 01:09 AM
Playing a BoB co-op, I dropped my bomb and turned for home. A Hurricane followed one of the other Stukas, and I just waltzed behind and knocked out his controls.

A little later, another Hurricane attacked the same Ju-87. I got in really close, shooting from 20m right into his fuselage, a hundred hits at least. He blows up (from MG17), and takes my rudder with him. And I landed in one piece http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

madsarmy
10-03-2005, 01:30 AM
When I first started flying online, I was flying a Stuka to the target when messages start to appear.
It was something like this.
"Stuka below us"
"lets have some fun with him"
"Ha,Ha"
"http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif"

The two cobra's dropped in on me & missed with every shot. They then started turning hard to get on my tail lost all the advantage & then had the stupidity to over shoot right into my gun sight. One down! The other one tried to fly at my speed behind me & stalled leaveing me to roll over & drop in behind his tumbling plane. two down!
A message soon followed with.
"that taught us a lesson"
players disconnected.

There is a lesson to be learnt.
"Don't F*** with me" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

nakamura_kenji
10-03-2005, 02:42 AM
D3a was secondary fighter sometime by ijn, be carful sometime thing not what appear "wolf sheep cloth tactic hehe ^_^"

LeLv44_Mangrove
10-03-2005, 02:51 AM
Much of my time in IL2 I flew with stuka and have shot down many Hurricanes, Spitfires and Lagg-3s.

One of my greatest air victories was when I shot down P-39 with J8A in Virtualpilots 1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

WTE_Warg
10-03-2005, 03:32 AM
Not suprising, the first Luftwaffe kill of WW2 was made by Uffz. Frank Neubert's Stuka over on Cpt. Medwecki's P.11c. And yes, I have shot down fighters with Stuka's, although I find that the rear gunner gets most of them. Sometimes the enemy stalling in at ground level turn fights will also occur. With those flaps out, you'll be amazed at what slow speeds they'll try to get down to and stay with you.

cawimmer430
10-05-2005, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Hey Christian, what country are you in. I saw your pic in the other thread and it's obvious you are in Europe, yes, no?

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for all the replies and stories guys! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hi Fritz, I am in Europe, Mühldorf am Inn in Germany (http://www.muehldorf.de) specifically. I am German. I assume you're German too (your name!)? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-Christian

Ob.Emann
10-05-2005, 08:38 AM
While flying in a Stuka on Hyperlobby I took control of the Stuka's rear gun when I noticed I was being tailed by a Hurricane and managed to PK the pilot. That was luck.

Dunkelgrun
10-05-2005, 11:22 AM
Once I shot down a Go229 in a Gladiator. Just once though.
Back to Stukas; if you are leading your Stuka staffel hit 7 (Anyone Help Me!) when being attacked. Your whole squadron will begin cavorting madly around the sky trying to dogfight the fighters. Absolutely hilarious. Of course, they nearly all die... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

Cheers!

JtD
10-05-2005, 01:38 PM
On UK-D there is a map which puts Ju-87 B vs. P.11 - and seriously I am more confident flying the Ju in these fights. Simply because P.11's don't have a rear gunner.

Didn't engage to often, but my personal record is three shot down P.11's in two flights. Did it myself, did not wait for the reargunner to fire - as this would usually mean a P.11 is firing at me.

96th_Nightshifter
10-05-2005, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
On UK-D there is a map which puts Ju-87 B vs. P.11 - and seriously I am more confident flying the Ju in these fights. Simply because P.11's don't have a rear gunner.

Didn't engage to often, but my personal record is three shot down P.11's in two flights. Did it myself, did not wait for the reargunner to fire - as this would usually mean a P.11 is firing at me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah you always hear groans from the Red team on that map (me being one of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) It's real easy to set up a shot against the Stukas but trying to knock them down in a P11 is more often that not a real chore, that and of course having one move in on your six while you are attempting to shoot down his mate. Not a popular map in UKDed1 but it is a nice change of pace.