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View Full Version : Gunther Rall: Nazi or soldier??



Viking-S
03-26-2006, 12:01 PM
?

Viking-S
03-26-2006, 12:01 PM
?

Max.Power
03-26-2006, 12:24 PM
What about soldier and nazi?

georgeo76
03-26-2006, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Viking wrote:
PS! This is a new thread so try a new excuse! Coward! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

how can you put an exclamation mark on a P.S.? What dose that mean?

Is this script more post than normal? Or is the emphasis of the scripting unusually high?

RedDeth
03-26-2006, 02:49 PM
well i can at the least say he wasnt a soldier.

soldiers were not allowed to pilot fighter planes

Daiichidoku
03-26-2006, 03:32 PM
you mean an actual party member? or a sympathizer?

does it matter anyhow? even if he was either, he would have denied it, as would most did



better off to ask this of eddie VIII instead http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

TX-Bomblast
03-26-2006, 03:38 PM
He was a soldier first and foremost, and unfortunatly had to join the Nazi Party, to become be a Luftwaffe Pilot. Anyone ever seen a Luftwaffe badge?

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_badges/luftwaffe/pilot_badge.htm

JG53Frankyboy
03-26-2006, 05:51 PM
to be 100% sure i have to look in his Memories , but so far i remember he was at least no member of the Nazi Party.


the Swastika was made by the Nazi Party a very official symbol for Germany - look at the offical Flag or the Aircraft Markings on the Rudder Stabilizer.

F19_Ob
03-27-2006, 06:36 AM
While reading, keep in mind that it's allways hard to tell if people are honest in their memoirs, or not. Better to remain sceptic in all situations without being a victim of cynism. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
It all boils down to what u yourself belive about them in the end.

The problem with negative stuff like once have been a beliveing partymember, although that was when young and stupid, is that it follows them no matter what good stuff they did in their life, and it all gets an aura of nazism.
Kind of hopeless odds.

It's generally easier to picture allied nations as 'good' but one is better off trying to equallise all countries to get sounder, truer historysense.
One way of doing so is to dig up evils that the 'good' countries did and do.

StG2_Schlachter
03-27-2006, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
to be 100% sure i have to look in his Memories , but so far i remember he was at least no member of the Nazi Party.


the Swastika was made by the Nazi Party a very official symbol for Germany - look at the offical Flag or the Aircraft Markings on the Rudder Stabilizer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't the swastika only on the "Kriegsflagge" ?

The official "Flag" of Germany was "Black, White ,Red" me thinks.

Grue_
03-27-2006, 07:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He was a soldier first and foremost, and unfortunatly had to join the Nazi Party, to become be a Luftwaffe Pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think this is true. Alfred Grislawski refused to join the Hitler Youth and Nazi party and because of this he was released quickly following the surrender.

JG53Frankyboy
03-27-2006, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StG2_Schlachter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
to be 100% sure i have to look in his Memories , but so far i remember he was at least no member of the Nazi Party.


the Swastika was made by the Nazi Party a very official symbol for Germany - look at the offical Flag or the Aircraft Markings on the Rudder Stabilizer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't the swastika only on the "Kriegsflagge" ?

The official "Flag" of Germany was "Black, White ,Red" me thinks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the "black-white-red" trikolore was forbidden in 1935.
from than on the official Flag was the red one, with the white circle and the black swastika in the middle.

PraetorHonoris
03-27-2006, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Bomblast:
He was a soldier first and foremost, and unfortunatly had to join the Nazi Party, to become be a Luftwaffe Pilot. Anyone ever seen a Luftwaffe badge? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


From 1871 until 1919 the National flag and the Merchant flag were black/white/red.
The Navy and War flag was that one:
http://www.altearmee.de/reichsfarben/reichskriegsflagge.JPG

From 1919 until 1933 the National flag was the same as today.
When Hitler came to power he ordered the old black/white/red one to be national flag, but in 1935, the Swastika flag with red ground, white circle and black Swastika became national flag, while the armed forces had to adopt the Swastika.
The new War flag looked like a mix of the old War flag and the new National flag.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/d/de1935~w.gif (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/d/de1935%7Ew.gif)

National badge and Party badge looked still different, though.

Every German Soldier, including Stauffenberg and Beck e.g., had to wear the swastika, which was ordered to be on every badge the German armed forces had.

JG53Frankyboy
03-27-2006, 08:00 AM
if you belive Ralls memorie books (i have both, the english and german one) he was no member of the NSDAP.

and btw he joined the german armed forces 1936 to become an infanterie officer. after the officer school in Dresden he joined the Luftwaffe 1938 already beeing an Oberf├┬Ąhnrich.

csThor
03-27-2006, 10:21 AM
The only nation requiring a membership in a political party for all of its Officers was the USSR. In Germany it was not mandatory and before Hitler's rise to power it was even strictly prohibited. During the time of the Weimarer Republik (1918-33) Officers were not allowed to participate in any political movements, join a political party or even promote any political view. This was abolished by the NSDAP, but I have no information on the actual number of members of the armed forces to join the NSDAP.

I don't think Rall was a member of the NSDAP. Post-war there was quite a hysteria in Western Germany about "ex-Nazis" or "Nazi Officers". A lot of excellent Officers weren't allowed to join the new Bundeswehr because of their perceived or real involvement with the NS system. All candidates for the Bundeswehr who had served in the Wehrmacht had to go through a rigorous "background scan" - undoubtedly a lot of people who had the talents but had been too friendly with the old system were washed out this way.
Men like Rall, Barkhorn, Hartmann, Obleser or Wolfrum (all of which reached high positions within the new Bundeswehr) were certainly highly-decorated veterans of WW2, but were frontline soldiers without too many political connections.

On the other hand I did read his new german book "Mein Flugbuch" and I cannot help but see a certain "snobism" on Rall's part towards non-professional soldiers or officers who were promoted because of bravery. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bremspropeller
03-27-2006, 10:33 AM
Thor, I think Ralls rather "snobby" attitude towars hartmann has something to do with Hartmann anti-Starfighter attitude.
And the Starfighter career in the Luftwaffe was only due to Rall's (and some other's) efforts.

...just my humble opinion...

crazyivan1970
03-27-2006, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viking-S:

PS! This is a new thread so try a new excuse! Coward! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is addressed to whom?

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-27-2006, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Thor, I think Ralls rather "snobby" attitude towars hartmann has something to do with Hartmann's anti-Starfighter attitude.
And the Starfighter career in the Luftwaffe was only due to Rall's (and some other's) efforts.

...just my humble opinion... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Agreed. And despite Rall's successes and the adoption of it by the USAF, the F-104 was sorely lacking as a fighter. It's well-documented.

TB

Bremspropeller
03-27-2006, 11:56 AM
USAF pilots told a different story, so did german pilots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The F-104 was commonly regarded as the best ACM platform in the early sixties.

danjama
03-27-2006, 12:01 PM
Something that i learned from Patrick Bishops Fighter Boys book is that in the RAF it was frowned upon to talk about politics, let alone be a member and follower of a particular party. That always interested me and struck me as a great way for the young lads to be fightin such a brutal air war. Sorry to go OT. As for Gunther Rall, i dont know much about him, but i always enjoyed his interviews that ive read and throroughly enjoyed a video interview i once saw of him. He seems like a very easy going, jokey kind of man. The kind of person youd sit down the pub with.

horseback
03-27-2006, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">On the other hand I did read his new german book "Mein Flugbuch" and I cannot help but see a certain "snobism" on Rall's part towards non-professional soldiers or officers who were promoted because of bravery. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There is always a certain amount of skepticism on the part of professionally trained officers about the recipients of battlefield promotions for bravery.

Courage and combat skills are not the same thing as intelligence, leadership, education, or basic management ability, and far too many of the men raised to command positions from enlisted ranks were not prepared for the responsibilities of leadership. They may have been individually quite good at shooting down airplanes, but they weren't all able to develop team tactics, train their men, negotiate with the supply and maintenance systems, or even lead their units in combat effectively. It might be argued that a bad leader was likely to more responsible for excessive casualties than the enemy.

For every Heinz Bar there were many failures, and I think it may have been Rall's attitude that these promotions were a little too freely given; certainly, Goerring et al seemed to like promoting people for good public relations reasons rather than military ones.

cheers

horseback

RedDeth
03-27-2006, 08:39 PM
every one of you guys is forgetting one thing.

in the late thirties there was nothing wrong with joining the nazi party. it was considered patriotic and your average german pilot knew nothing of concentration camps.

it would be like becoming a democrat now and finding out that bill clinton and his cronies had hidden concentration camps after he was out of office.

so if gunther rall was a proud nazi during the war what wrong would that mean he did to others? none.

csThor
03-28-2006, 10:12 AM
It's not just Hartmann, but he was probably the most prominent "receipient" of Rall's sceptism. I recall having read the same thing from Bergstr├┬Âm in "Graf & Grislawski". Maybe it was a certain "detachment" by Rall from the other soldiers whereas Graf and other officers were quite buddy-buddy with their subordinates. It might have been Rall's personality, but certainly people saw it and found him aloof and a bit too "proud" of his status.

Whether Rall or Hartmann were right about the Starfighter question - and even with my limited knowledge I tend to view the whole affair with a certain sceptism - the plane was loaded with politics but not the appropriate avionics for central Europe (in that sense Hartmann was very correct). AFAIR a certain Max-Joseph Strau├č was MoD at that time and knowing how this guy operated I tend to be wary of everything he touched. My 20 cents ...

BueJack
03-28-2006, 01:07 PM
As a few have said.
you must not forget that even today there are many who believe that their gov is doing the right thing, only to discover the hidden 'dark side' years later!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LStarosta
03-28-2006, 06:29 PM
Is every American soldier in Iraq a Republican?

Hawgdog
03-28-2006, 06:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Is every American soldier in Iraq a Republican? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the hell does that mean?

Tully__
03-28-2006, 07:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viking-S:

PS! This is a new thread so try a new excuse! Coward! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is addressed to whom? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me... I recently locked a similar thread that had been subject to the art of necromancy, the first couple of pages were over two years old. This can stay as long as it remains civil.

Bo_Nidle
03-28-2006, 07:24 PM
I don't know if Rall was a Nazi or not. He doesn't strike me as much of a political fanatic in the interviews i have seen on TV but then again that doesn't say much.

One thing is certain: he was a hell of a fighter pilot!

I actually saw him once at a display at Duxford but couldn't get close enough to speak to him unfortunately.

As for the F-104 controversy: It was adopted by Germany as result of some very underhand and legally dubious antics by the politicians of the day in the US and Germany as well as the Lockheed aircraft company. As a result of which certain laws in the United States were passed to prevent such tactics being used again.

That said the F-104 is one of my all time favourite jet fighters. My particular favourite being the rocket assisted NF-104 (later renamed the F-104N) that NASA used for high altitude research flights. It was this model that almost cost Chuck Yeager his life when it entered a high speed stall followed by a flat spin form which he was unable to recover. he rode it down from 103,000 feet to 8000 feet before ejecting.

My abiding personal memory of the F-104 is of being on RAF Waddington in the early 80's and suddenly hearing an unearthly howl in the sky above.It was utterly bizare. I then turned and saw a pair of German F-104G's on the approach. No other aircraft sounds like it or looks like it.

LStarosta
03-28-2006, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawgdog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Is every American soldier in Iraq a Republican? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the hell does that mean? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a rhetorical question which is supposed to make you think.

Not all soldiers belong or even "lean towards" the party that is currently in power in their government. While I'm sure it's difficult to compare a party in a totalitarian government to a party in an elected government, I think one can conclude that a particular party in power does not make all members of that country's armed forces a member or sympathizer of the said party.

Boandlgramer
03-28-2006, 10:25 PM
oh man, csThor.
the Minister of Defence was "FRANZ" JOSEF Strau├č
not MAX joseph http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

Max is his criminal son. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

************************************

Status Quo, was ?
Achso, du meinst die englische Banausenband.

Dieter Bohlen.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
03-28-2006, 10:48 PM
I know that Rall didnt especially like FW190, he prefered BF109, i dont really know why. Ohh and he hated slots in BF109, he said when u was turning hardly on high speed, slots could suddenly open and u stalled.

georgeo76
03-29-2006, 01:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">it would be like becoming a democrat now and finding out that bill clinton and his cronies had hidden concentration camps after he was out of office. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is every American soldier in Iraq a Republican? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stand in awe how the Nazis are analogous to everything. I predict that in the future ppl will compare each other to Hitler as a term of endearment.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

LeLv44_Mangrove
03-29-2006, 01:15 AM
G├╝nther Rall visited Finland 3 years ago and Virtualpilots.fi has an interview which maybe clears some things.
Rall has agreeded for an another visit in 19.-21th May 2006 so everyone who is interested, come to Finland http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

G├╝nther Rall, Luftwaffe ace (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/guntherrall2003/)
G├╝nther Rall - Interview (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-GuntherRallEnglish.html)

Max.Power
03-29-2006, 01:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by georgeo76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">it would be like becoming a democrat now and finding out that bill clinton and his cronies had hidden concentration camps after he was out of office. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is every American soldier in Iraq a Republican? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stand in awe how the Nazis are analogous to everything. I predict that in the future ppl will compare each other to Hitler as a term of endearment.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are analogous in so far as they are both political parties. This is all that the original poster meant by it. YOU are responsible for any other comparisons on your own.

Bremspropeller
03-29-2006, 03:10 AM
It was certainly not that the F-104G didn't suit the european weather-conditions, because it was designed to be an all-weather plane.

The hight accident rate was due to poor pilot-training at the beginning of it's Luftwaffe-career. The loss ratio got better and better as soon as the initial pilot training on the Starfighter took place at Luke AFB, Arizona.
There actually was no typical Starfighter-crash.
If you go through the loss-list, you'll find out that most of the crashes were due to pilot-error or other human-factors (bad maintenance, etc.)

I mean, no pilot would LOVE to climb into his jet when he knows that there's sumething dangerous about it. A lot of pilots transitioned to the F-4F and all of them were pretty much decepted when they found out that they were changing from a "corvette" plane to a "school bus"...

csThor
03-29-2006, 07:11 AM
Argh ... I must be getting old and senile. Yes - King Franz-Joseph I of Bavaria was MoD ...

Sorry ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

LStarosta
03-29-2006, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by georgeo76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">it would be like becoming a democrat now and finding out that bill clinton and his cronies had hidden concentration camps after he was out of office. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is every American soldier in Iraq a Republican? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stand in awe how the Nazis are analogous to everything. I predict that in the future ppl will compare each other to Hitler as a term of endearment.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Often when one wishes to put a far-flung situation in terms everyone can understand better, one will resort to a comparison of the unfamiliar situation with something more familiar. In this case, since many of these forum-goers are American, I chose to use the GOP as an analogy simply because it is currently the party that is in power in the United States.

If you think I am drawing some sort of moral parallels between the Nazi and Republican parties, then that must be your own conscience doing the talking, not mine.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Grendel-B
03-29-2006, 08:17 AM
Mr. Rall was a professional soldier. And a good one. That's the whole thing that matters.

More can be read from articles/interviews by me, the links Mangrove mentioned.

horseback
03-29-2006, 09:40 AM
Re the 'Republican' soldiers issue: since the opposition on the Left has made a habit of labelling Republicans Nazis or comparing them to Nazis on every point of disagreement (practically to the choice of bacon vs sausage at congressional prayer breakfasts), some of us get a little touchy, after years of trying to be the 'adults' in the arguement.

Now on to the F-104: if you've ever heard one fly by, you'll note the distinctive sound of the aircraft, even though it uses the same J79 engine as the F-4 Phantom. It sounds quite a bit like the sound you get by blowing across the top of a beer bottle.

Coupled with the look of the aircraft, which is far and away one of the coolest jet fighter designs of all time (in the same class as the MiG 21 and the F-16), my Dad was always convinced that the 'beer bottle sound' was what really sold German politicians on the design - although the all the goodies from Lockheed didn't hurt.

At the same time, it should be noted that the sale was to NATO, and the Netherlands, Belgium, Turkey and Italy (among others) all used the Starfighter as well. Maybe it also sounds like blowing across the top of a wine bottle...

cheers

horseback

georgeo76
03-29-2006, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Often when one wishes to put a far-flung situation in terms everyone can understand better, one will resort to a comparison of the unfamiliar situation with something more familiar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds like an analogy to me.

My point is not that you think the Republicans are Nazis, or that the other fellow really thinks Clinton had concentration camps.
I'm saying that the comparison to Nazis and Hitler are tossed around frivolously. I believe that this depreciates what the Nazis are responsible for. Calling someone a Nazi is trite. How long before it means nothing at all or is even considered a complement?

Tully__
03-29-2006, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by georgeo76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Often when one wishes to put a far-flung situation in terms everyone can understand better, one will resort to a comparison of the unfamiliar situation with something more familiar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds like an analogy to me.

My point is not that you think the Republicans are Nazis, or that the other fellow really thinks Clinton had concentration camps.
I'm saying that the comparison to Nazis and Hitler are tossed around frivolously. I believe that this depreciates what the Nazis are responsible for. Calling someone a Nazi is trite. How long before it means nothing at all or is even considered a complement? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds like a topic on linguistic evolution rather than Gunther Rall, how about we concede each other's points and get back on topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

arcadeace
03-29-2006, 01:12 PM
this thread has turned into a piece of sh1t, but georgeo's point has far more value than the original topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LStarosta
03-29-2006, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by georgeo76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Often when one wishes to put a far-flung situation in terms everyone can understand better, one will resort to a comparison of the unfamiliar situation with something more familiar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds like an analogy to me.

My point is not that you think the Republicans are Nazis, or that the other fellow really thinks Clinton had concentration camps.
I'm saying that the comparison to Nazis and Hitler are tossed around frivolously. I believe that this depreciates what the Nazis are responsible for. Calling someone a Nazi is trite. How long before it means nothing at all or is even considered a complement? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wholeheartedly agree, but the topic at hand is whether or not a particular soldier was a Nazi. I didn't go out and flippantly call someone a Nazi. I'm just trying to contemplate the political climate of Germany starting in the 1930s to after WWII. By agreeing that not every American soldier belongs to a particular party makes one wonder if it is fair to say that every German soldier belonged to the Nazi party.

Now back on track...

Does anyone want to share any evidence that would suggest Rall being a Nazi? I'm curious about this myself.

PraetorHonoris
03-29-2006, 01:52 PM
As for Rall's "snobism", you have to consider the different mind set he got during his officiers' training in the army.
The army was in many aspect way more Prussian than Hitler and it's gang appreciated. That also included the old Prussian elitism of Officiers (being noble) and the strict division from the rest of the army was still very vivid and of course the officiers candidates were educated that way.
The Air Force had different roots and the everyday working routine of a flying unit enabled - or required - a more liberal attidute towards rules/instructions especially concerning Formaldienst (how to salute, what uniform how to wear etc.). The relationship between superiors and their subjects was not as formal as in the army.

joeap
03-29-2006, 01:56 PM
Interesting PraetorHonoris, really sounds like most air forces were less formal than the army.

horseback
03-29-2006, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
As for Rall's "snobism", you have to consider the different mind set he got during his officiers' training in the army.
The army was in many aspect way more Prussian than Hitler and it's gang appreciated. That also included the old Prussian elitism of Officiers (being noble) and the strict division from the rest of the army was still very vivid and of course the officiers candidates were educated that way.
The Air Force had different roots and the everyday working routine of a flying unit enabled - or required - a more liberal attidute towards rules/instructions especially concerning Formaldienst (how to salute, what uniform how to wear etc.). The relationship between superiors and their subjects was not as formal as in the army. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Valid points, although in the US military, the Air Force - with its roots in the US Army, is notably more formal than the US Navy and Marine Corps, at least in modern times. As you know, in America, we have much less of a formal class structure than Europe, especially Europe in the 1930s.

From my reading of histories of the LW and its origins in the thirties, it seems to me that the roots of Luftwaffe informality lie in the fact that its core of original pilots and aircrew were civilian trained and spent a significant part of their pre-Luftwaffe careers being airliner pilots and so on.

There certainly seems to have been a cultural lack of appreciation for traditional military realities and strategy.

I wonder if the LW's fighter commanders would have followed the same strategies and allowed the 'star system' that German fighter units generally followed during the war if they had had the formal military training that their Army counterparts had...

cheers

horseback

BueJack
03-29-2006, 03:59 PM
Hypocrisy is rife here, many a NEW moderator would have LOCKED this thread.. already!!!

So what has happened.. have we matured somewhat?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tully__
03-29-2006, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BueJack:
Hypocrisy is rife here, many a NEW moderator would have LOCKED this thread.. already!!!

So what has happened.. have we matured somewhat?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's no flaming and the topic (WW2 military history) is within the scope of the simulation, where's the problem? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BueJack
03-29-2006, 04:09 PM
I don't know if any of you are experienced in 'Office Politics' and the 'Politics of the day'.

Rall probably has a lot to say about a lot of things, but he choose to say a minimum about less, so as not to offend uneccessarily, as a lot of people are still sensitive about that time, and that he's still alive to remind them.

His memories are from his perspective, and a lot of people cannot see this, without being offended. To him it was a lifetime experience of not knowing whether you'll be alive tomorrow.
Speak to any Vets from this time, Axis or Allied, most are unified in their experiences........

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BueJack
03-29-2006, 04:13 PM
No reference to you Tully - Appologies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

polak5
03-29-2006, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
By agreeing that not every American soldier belongs to a particular party makes one wonder if it is fair to say that every German soldier belonged to the Nazi party.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a well mentioned "duh". Of course we shouldnt think that every german soldier or civillian was a nazi. But I hear from time to time, when someone is asked were there from and they say germany, a typical stupid response is hail hitler!.
Its just lifem, ignorance is among us!

I want some strong evidence that he was indeed a nazi, other than Rall just being german.

MB_Avro_UK
03-29-2006, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:
While reading, keep in mind that it's allways hard to tell if people are honest in their memoirs, or not. Better to remain sceptic in all situations without being a victim of cynism. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
It all boils down to what u yourself belive about them in the end.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Bs Regards,
MB_Avro.

The problem with negative stuff like once have been a beliveing partymember, although that was when young and stupid, is that it follows them no matter what good stuff they did in their life, and it all gets an aura of nazism.
Kind of hopeless odds.

It's generally easier to picture allied nations as 'good' but one is better off trying to equallise all countries to get sounder, truer historysense.
One way of doing so is to dig up evils that the 'good' countries did and do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PraetorHonoris
03-30-2006, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
Valid points, although in the US military, the Air Force - with its roots in the US Army, is notably more formal than the US Navy and Marine Corps, at least in modern times. As you know, in America, we have much less of a formal class structure than Europe, especially Europe in the 1930s.

From my reading of histories of the LW and its origins in the thirties, it seems to me that the roots of Luftwaffe informality lie in the fact that its core of original pilots and aircrew were civilian trained and spent a significant part of their pre-Luftwaffe careers being airliner pilots and so on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know... regarding the close cooperation between Reichswehr (armed forces until 1935) and Lufthansa (civil airline) we can quite safely assume that many pilots were trained for war during peacetimes, in the Soviet Union btw. All youth clubs for flying were taken over by the Hitler Youth after 1933 soon, which also militarized young pilots.
On the other hand you are right, there was a great enthusiasm in the 20ties and 30ties about flying and many pilots had a purely civil training.

Nevertheless, I rather believe it was the head of the Luftwaffe, foremost G├┬Âring but also other high ranking officiers, furthering the attidute of the pilots to be daring and bold, becoming a hunter. Formalities were not so important as long as the enemies were shot down.

Due to my own experiences in the Luftwaffe (of today of course), I can say, the degree to which we were formal depended not so much on the branch of service, but on the work we did.
The light infantry of the Luftwaffe (LwObjSBat)is as formal and hardy as the light infantry of the army, while the flying units of the army are as informal and 'sloppy' as most of the Luftwaffe.

It is hard to explain, but in certain fields, formalities are simply impractical and hampering daily work. The supply or maintenance are such fields.
Hardy discipline is necessary for infantry and that disciplines also is expressed by strict obedience to formalities - at least in peace times. In battle, it is something different again.

Nimits
03-30-2006, 10:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but one is better off trying to equallise all countries to get sounder, truer historysense.
One way of doing so is to dig up evils that the 'good' countries did and do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just stupid, sir. I won't claim any country is perfect, but good and evil do exist, and the Axis powers are undoubtedly one of the better examples of evil run amok. To attempt to morally equate Nazi Germany and the Allies is the height of self-inflicted deception.

kameron1974
03-30-2006, 11:48 PM
He was one hell of a HOTT pilot.
Thats all that mattered and anyway membership in the party was forbidden to Armed forces except Waffen SS of course.

Tully__
03-31-2006, 05:22 PM
PraetorHonoris, Copperhead, if you must fight with each other do it elsewhere. Next post I see at Ubi by either of you in references to your differences with each other is going to get the poster a holiday.

Copperhead310th
03-31-2006, 09:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
PraetorHonoris, Copperhead, if you must fight with each other do it elsewhere. Next post I see at Ubi by either of you in references to your differences with each other is going to get the poster a holiday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RGR RGR Sir. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif