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Cpt_Rio
04-18-2005, 06:18 PM
Im a little confused....How to make it in a 109?

JG52_Helgstrand
04-18-2005, 06:36 PM
Climb verticaly with a lot of rudder, like a barrel role.

Read all about it here:

http://www.lx.net/rufus/spiral.htm

3.JG51_BigBear
04-18-2005, 07:02 PM
Against P-51s and P-47s the spiral climb can be done pretty slopily. Timing and distance aren't as important because the 109 so outclasses these planes in slow constant turn climbing. If they have a lot of energy don't do it because they'll zoom up above you and then drop on top of you while you've burned up a lot of energy in your first couple spirals (online of course, offline you can get away with a sprial almost anytime the AI don't adapt to it).

Against a Spit I've only gotten the spiral to work when I already have an altitude advantage. The spit models in game just spiral better than the 109s.

F19_Ob
04-19-2005, 04:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
Against a Spit I've only gotten the spiral to work when I already have an altitude advantage. The spit models in game just spiral better than the 109s. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you're right.
We dont have the earlier spits in the game and the spit5 had cannons wich is a big part of its succes against climbers since only one hit can bring the enemy down.
It is still possible to outclimb spit5 with an energy advantage but the "window" is narrower.
The spit9 also had a much better chance to catch 109's and fw190 so the energyadvantage in accelleration is marginal. That often means that the one with altitude wins because it can be converted to that extra speed.

Spiralclimbs are not riskfree in any way and a lot depends on the opponents skill and plane. The skill level of an opponent can be hard to tell before its too late.
I often fly crappier rides (hurricanes for example) against the 109 and fw190 and my my tactics differ depending on if I have cannons or mg's and what type of mg's.
With cannons I often risk to spray at spiralclimbers if I see the opportunity.
The tactic is to pull lead to a spot ahead of the climbing 109 and spray cannonshells into that area "before" you run out of energy to pull lead by following the 109 ,wich is his plan.

If I have a wingman, he will keep his speed up and wait for his opportunity to take over or protect me from other enemies, unless he himself has had a window for attack and add to the spraying on the enemy climber.

In only mg equipped planes I'm more careful to give up my energy in climbs after the enemy because its often just a waste of ammo and I can only hope for slight damage unless lucky.
In those planes I conserve energy and wait for cleaner shots.
Eventually the 109 or fw190 will come down on me and if its a 109 I might climb up to meet him in a headon because with the extra energy a 109 can turn inside most planes by throttling down, if he wants to.
A fw190 has more cannons and its not good to go headon, but they are easier to evade than the 109 so I normally go for energy conserving evasion.

The one with altitude has the best hand of cards
and if he also is in a comparable or faster plane he most likely will win.


a few thoughts

F19_Ob
04-19-2005, 04:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cpt_Rio:
Im a little confused....How to make it in a 109? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello cpt_rio:
It takes some time and practise to be able to do it succesfully, especially when multiple enemies are close.

The article Helgstrand posted gives some insight and refers also to SA (situational awareness)wich comes with experience.
There are numerous factors to consider and understand.


1. first of all u have to be able to handle the 109 well, especially in slow speeds. U wont have the upperhand otherwise.

2.U have to know your opponents plane. Is it a good climber and accellerator? how fast? Cannon or mg's?
If it is comparable u shouldnt attempt spiralclimbs unless u have the altitude advantage.

3. Opponents skill level? This is the hardest part and perhaps unavailable info. One way to tell is if u have seen him fight earlier or appear good at deflectionshooting on long ranges.

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This is a good startingpoint I think.

The next difficult part is "when" to start the spiral and that depends on the situation.
The spiral can be executed in several ways.

If u have distance( beyond firing range) and altitude over your opponent and see the enemy try to climb towards u, Then u are in a good position to start your spiral.
Just by starting to climb towards U the enemy loses his E and the whole idea is to sucker him into spending more than he planned and thus notice his mistake when its to late for leadpulling and efficient moves.

Climbing in itself bleeds energy and with the added turn the bleed is maximized. This means that The enemy has less energy than U if he follows becaus he not only must spiral with U but also pull lead = pull harder = lose more energy.

If u are in this position and your opponent is a Hurricane then U know that he has less speed, accelleration and climb to start with, and if he then climb towards u in a spiral climb U know that he is spending his last energy and it will take much longer for him to get his E back.

If U then know that a 109 outturns the Hurri in both fast and very slow speeds then u are in a good spot. U can actually just climb away from a hurricane if u have fooled him out of speed and even just outaccellerate him in level flight and be beyond firing range in a few secs.

Just to clearify how the 109 can outturn the HUrricane.
In slow speeds it takes long time for the hurricane to accellerate to best turning speed.
U cant keep the turn going if u dont have the accelleration. The 109 has a gentler stall and much better climb and accelleration and by making a spiralclimb when a hurricane is out of E ensures that the hurri cant gain more speed unless he dives and then he is yours.
In fast speeds like in dives the hurricane dont turn well and even when the pilot throttles down it takes time for the engine and prop to respond and the 109 simply applies combatflap, throttles down in an instant and pull inside the hurricane although it may be close to stalling. Even if the 109 stalls it comes out of it faster than most allied planes and can quickly accellerate better than most.

Depending on the situation U can do slow climbing spirals or steep ones and when to use wich can only come from your own experience and knowledge of above factors.

Spiralclimbs can be used against any plane with less E, it just becomes more complicated if the enemy has a comparable plane.

My best tip is to start practise on those who have less performance and armament and advance from there. Be careful with cannonequipped planes.
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What I could think of at the moment....I might add something later.

GoodLuck mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cpt_Rio
04-19-2005, 06:27 AM
WoWW!!

That was great guys!

Thank you so much!!