PDA

View Full Version : High altitude combat.



Vuco1
04-13-2006, 03:53 PM
Ok, I'm going to do something un usual for this forum. Instead of going something like: "Oleg this is wrong, what are you trying to sell us here, this is poked, that is uber... bla, bla, bla (followed by a waste qunatity of some history records and statistic data)", I'm going to ask other forum members what they think is wrong in this simulation, specifically in this case; what is wrong whit high altitude combat. It has been brought may times that IL2/FB/PF series does not simulate this segment of air combat whit equal quality like others segments. Some members go as far as making statements that the whole engine on which this simulation is based is un capable of simulating this the "right way".
Unfortunately as for my lacking knowledge in "how it is in real world" I'm am unable to see shortcomings of high altitude combat in this sim so please say what you think is specifically wrong whit it.

Sorry for my English.

Vuco1
04-13-2006, 03:53 PM
Ok, I'm going to do something un usual for this forum. Instead of going something like: "Oleg this is wrong, what are you trying to sell us here, this is poked, that is uber... bla, bla, bla (followed by a waste qunatity of some history records and statistic data)", I'm going to ask other forum members what they think is wrong in this simulation, specifically in this case; what is wrong whit high altitude combat. It has been brought may times that IL2/FB/PF series does not simulate this segment of air combat whit equal quality like others segments. Some members go as far as making statements that the whole engine on which this simulation is based is un capable of simulating this the "right way".
Unfortunately as for my lacking knowledge in "how it is in real world" I'm am unable to see shortcomings of high altitude combat in this sim so please say what you think is specifically wrong whit it.

Sorry for my English.

appulluk
04-13-2006, 04:00 PM
I'm just a simmer on a rudimentary level, but I know the higher you go the less air pressure and thus lift you have, and aloftness/speed, and so fighting up there will be slower and you'll be more prone to stalling.

The sim does that well enough, I would think.

ploughman
04-13-2006, 04:10 PM
I'm not sure the relative strengths of the aircraft are correctly modelled at altitude. And also certain rocket aircraft can pretty much be put into Low Earth Orbit!

Max.Power
04-13-2006, 04:15 PM
If I recall correctly (for the usenet-speak impared), the engine stops calculating changes in altitude after a certain point, and makes progressing past that alt prohibitively difficult. I forget what that number is but I think it's 11,000 meters or so.

Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.

VW-IceFire
04-13-2006, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vuco1:
Ok, I'm going to do something un usual for this forum. Instead of going something like: "Oleg this is wrong, what are you trying to sell us here, this is poked, that is uber... bla, bla, bla (followed by a waste qunatity of some history records and statistic data)", I'm going to ask other forum members what they think is wrong in this simulation, specifically in this case; what is wrong whit high altitude combat. It has been brought may times that IL2/FB/PF series does not simulate this segment of air combat whit equal quality like others segments. Some members go as far as making statements that the whole engine on which this simulation is based is un capable of simulating this the "right way".
Unfortunately as for my lacking knowledge in "how it is in real world" I'm am unable to see shortcomings of high altitude combat in this sim so please say what you think is specifically wrong whit it.

Sorry for my English. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To be honest its a bunch of FUD. The game engine accurately models the air upto 10,000 meters which is around 32,000 feet. It was rare for anything in WWII to fly above 30,000 feet....it happened but it wasn't too likely to have combat up there. Above 10,000 meters the modeling is not accurate...but it doesn't end and things do change from that point upwards...

Underneath that...things are fairly accurate and while we can sit around all day arguing over the FM's and we will from now until eternity because thats what humans do but its pretty good and there is nothing wrong with it persay. Note that alot of people confuse 10,000 meters for 10,000 feet. Its happened alot of the time...10,000 feet is around 3200m which takes maybe a minute or two to reach in the late war uber props. For me...this is essentially a non-issue.

ploughman
04-13-2006, 04:30 PM
Well I didn't know that Ice. That's good to know. As you say, apart from some particular mission profiles like Mossies and Pr Spits anything above 11,000 metres is not going to be an issue.

Divine-Wind
04-13-2006, 05:03 PM
So that '10,000' was meters and not feet? I guess I'm one of the mislead noobs that thought it was feet. It kept bugging me that anything going above what I thought was 10,000 feet seemed to have weird physics.

On topic, everything seems in order up there. I rarely go up there, since it seems unstable in the fighters I fly (Thunderbolts, Warhawks, Mustangs), but that seems accurate, since the air is thin up there, and therefore, if I can remember my physics/science correctly, unstable. When I occasionally do go up there, it's in something like the Ta-152 or the Lightning, since their pretty large wingspan seems to give them stability.

So overall, high altitude physics/combat seems spot on IMO.

ImpStarDuece
04-13-2006, 05:14 PM
There are plenty of pilot accounts of flying at above 30,000 feet and being almost permanently on the point of stalling because of the lack of lift and horsepower. Lots of reports mention aircraft spinning out of shallow turns and pilots putting the nose down to gain speed before initiating any hard manouver.

Even something like the Ta-152 or the Spitfire Mk. VII with extended wing tips and high altitude engine had real trouble manouvering above about 37,000 feet.

Ratsack
04-13-2006, 06:29 PM
A Spit MkIXc, with all armour and four machine guns removed, chased a Ju86R from 41,000 ft to 43,000 ft on 12 Sep 1942. The Spit scored some cannon hits before one gun jammed. After that, every time the Spit pilot fired, the plane slewed to one side and stalled out.

The Ju86R got away, but didn't return, presumably because the Luftwaffe realised their high alt flights were no longer immune to interception.

This was the highest altitude combat of World War 2.

cheers,
Ratsack

The-Pizza-Man
04-13-2006, 06:51 PM
Are you quite sure? Late war recon spits flew that high and I'm sure at least a few of them were intercepted.