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Oldcrow1129
02-07-2006, 07:42 PM
I tried the Logitech 3D Force Pro last weekend but have since taken it back to Circuit city. The stick just seemed to wobble without a center when you were trying to line up a shot. My question is, are all force feedback sticks similar in that controlling the plane at mid-level speeds is next to impossible? The Logitech basically had no tension whatsoever even at greater speeds. Is that realistic? I've flown my buddies Cessna before and some of the stick feel of the Logitech represented the Cessna, but.......

Should I try the Thrustmaster Force stick next, or just go with a regular joystick until technology catches up?

p.s. Sorry for another stick post, but Iz gots to know.

Oldcrow1129
02-07-2006, 07:42 PM
I tried the Logitech 3D Force Pro last weekend but have since taken it back to Circuit city. The stick just seemed to wobble without a center when you were trying to line up a shot. My question is, are all force feedback sticks similar in that controlling the plane at mid-level speeds is next to impossible? The Logitech basically had no tension whatsoever even at greater speeds. Is that realistic? I've flown my buddies Cessna before and some of the stick feel of the Logitech represented the Cessna, but.......

Should I try the Thrustmaster Force stick next, or just go with a regular joystick until technology catches up?

p.s. Sorry for another stick post, but Iz gots to know.

DaimonSyrius
02-07-2006, 07:53 PM
I can't tell about Logitechs, but the Saitek Cyborg Evo Force (http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/cyborg_evo_force.htm) can be nicely adjusted for force effects and default centering tension in its control panel.

Cheers,
S.

blakduk
02-07-2006, 09:29 PM
It's a shame you took it back already. It sounds like your setup for the Logitech 3D Force Pro stick may have beem at fault, not the stick itself.
Did you use the setup program that came with it?
You can adjust the centre tension on the menu.
Also, you need to ensure that 'forcefeedback' is set on the PF setup menu.
You also need to ensure the stick is plugged in properly- last week i spent 15minutes fiddling with the software settings before i realised i had lost all the force effect because the power supply had come loose from the socket!

codeseven7
02-07-2006, 10:44 PM
Hi Oldcrow, I had a Logitech Strike Force 3D for several years. Contrary to the experiences of many whom have owned Logitech sticks, mine worked very well, I thought. That was until it finaly broke and I replaced it with a CH Products Fighterstick (non-FF). The Fighterstick was excellent, but after awhile I really felt disconnected from the cockpit without FF. No stall shudder, wind buffeting, gun recoil, gear extention thud ect, ect, to allow me to 'feel' my aircraft 'flying'. So, after seeing many posts boasting about the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2, I bought one on e-bay. The MSFF2 has been the best stick I have ever owned, much better performing than the Logitech and built/designed very well. I'm back in the cockpit and couldn't be happier. To me, FF is a must and the MSFF2 is THE best FF stick available.

tagTaken2
02-08-2006, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by codeseven7:
the MSFF2 is THE best FF stick available. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MSFF2 is no longer available, unless you're lucky/cashed-up... perhaps the fortunate (high 5! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) should stop posting about how great it is and offer constructive advice on the next best option...

Force feedback is the way to go, in the opinion of many. Consider this: would you rather watch pr0n, or make love?
All I can suggest is that you look at every possible review of FFB sticks, check ebay for the sidewinder, and avoid logitech sticks like the plague. I had one for 5 months and it was rubbish.

anasteksi
02-08-2006, 10:41 AM
i've saitek cyborg evo which is the best joystick what i've never used (msff1, logitech force3d, ms1). Allmost everything is adjustable and it has great setup programs with it. There's even those centering forces which are in real planes. If you fly fast you really need to pull harder and if you fly slow there hardly is any centering forces.

I really recommend you to stay at ff sticks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CPS_Triad
02-08-2006, 10:55 AM
I had a Logitech 3-D stick for a while. Didn't take long (a few months) for them to 'lose center' for some reason. Don't look back, tho if you think you'd like FFB, I got a Saitek Evo Force that is pretty sweet: just have to remember to give it a few twists prior to starting up the game, or it sticks right rudder.

Hope that helps-

Cheers!

Triad

The Pilot formerly known as triad773

Beirut
02-08-2006, 11:00 AM
I'm a lucky MS FFB2 owner and I'm happy to have it. Can't imagine flying without FFB. Not for the stutter you get when you pull the trigger, but for the resistance and vibration you get when banking and stalling and so on.

If I didn't have the MS stick, I would absolutely get a Saitek. I use a standard Saitek Cyborg Evo as a left hand throttle as part of my inexpensive HOTAS setup. They make nice stuff.

lowfighter
02-08-2006, 11:13 AM
FF is nice. The logitec stick, you see, it's matter of luck. I had one, worked pretty much ok,once smashed it to the wall though, well done http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ,now I have a saitek works much better, smoother, it's a pleasure.

NonWonderDog
02-08-2006, 11:45 AM
My only experience with a force feedback stick was an old Microsoft Force Feedback Pro. It was immersive, but it had WAY too much play at the center. It was as if the centering "springs" had a deadzone around the center of the stick, so it would never center in the same place.... and it was designed specifically NOT to center if you took your hand off.

FFB wheels are a godsend for racing sims, but FFB joysticks seem largely superfluous. I haven't tried the new(er) generation of FFB sticks, but I'm not sure it really adds that much anyway. I'm very happy with my Saitek X52 HOTAS, now.

Kajun442
02-08-2006, 12:28 PM
I started with a non-FFB Microsoft stick and then bought a MSFFB2. I've recently bought a Saitek Cyborg Evo Force after my MSFFB2 was destroyed. Without going into which is better,I like the Saitek. Now to finally answer your question. I would recommend a FFB stick. It adds to the fun and immersion.

Kajun442

PS: You might not want to listen to me. I can't hit anything........except the ground.

Beirut
02-08-2006, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

PS: You might not want to listen to me. I can't hit anything........except the ground. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but when you do, I'm sure you hit it very well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kajun442
02-08-2006, 01:20 PM
Beirut,yes I do. It took many years of practice to refine my skill. As Napoleon Dynamite said "you gotta have skills".

Kajun442

3.JG51_BigBear
02-08-2006, 03:26 PM
I had a MSFF2 stick for years and I actually improved significantly after I got rid of it. The FF was throwing of my aim and I found that I could fly the plane closer to the 'edge' without the force feedback than with, I just seemed to have more precise control.

Akronnick
02-08-2006, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beirut:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

PS: You might not want to listen to me. I can't hit anything........except the ground. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but when you do, I'm sure you hit it very well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to The Hithhikers Guide to the Galaxy, the key to flying is throwing yourself at the ground and missing.

Oldcrow1129
02-08-2006, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blakduk:
It's a shame you took it back already. It sounds like your setup for the Logitech 3D Force Pro stick may have beem at fault, not the stick itself.
Did you use the setup program that came with it?
You can adjust the centre tension on the menu.
Also, you need to ensure that 'forcefeedback' is set on the PF setup menu.
You also need to ensure the stick is plugged in properly- last week i spent 15minutes fiddling with the software settings before i realised i had lost all the force effect because the power supply had come loose from the socket! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


blakduk,

I don't think it was a setting issue. I tinkered with every setting available in the Logitech software, and also experiemented with the PF settings as well.

I'm thinking either:

a) With really limited real world flying experience, I don't know what a joystick of a real plane flying steady at 210 mph should feel like.

b)Force feedback is so completely different (real?) from standard joysticks, that I'm not comfortable with the difference.

c) Somehow I got a bad Logitech unit that is not representative of the sticks capability. I used to work retail, lots of stuff happens to boxed products before they hit the floor.

So...........I think I'll try another's FF stick.

I can snag a Microsoft FF2 off Ebay, but that is obviosly prone to problem.

Has anybody ever tried the "ThrustMaster Top Gun Afterburner Force Feedback"? There doesn't seem to be much in the archives about this stick.

bm357-DrGlow
02-08-2006, 09:32 PM
Oldcrow1129 my advice is do not get a Ms ffb2 because if you do you will be ruined for any other flight stick for life it happened to me.I had gone threw a few good flight sticks be for my first Ms ffb2.The ffb2 was love at first flight. It put up with my alcohol abuse for about two years, until I spilled a beer on it and fried it. You would not believe the trouble I had trying to find a stick that could replace the ffb2,thank god for the 14 day return policy that most stores have or I would be out five or six hundred bucks. I finely got lucky and found a new ffb2 then got another from ebay for $125.00 for a backup.Save your self the trouble and DON'T buy a Ms ffb2

Tobus75
02-09-2006, 02:08 AM
I had a logitech 3d pro also, it worked very well but lost its centralisation after about 6 months. Now I have a Saitek Cyborg EVO Force. Best stick ever and not very expensive!
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/cyborg_evo_force.htm

Dexmeister
02-09-2006, 10:56 AM
Personally I prefer a force feedback chair over a stick. Makes more sense to my brain.

As for Logitech sticks, I've had 4 over the past few years and am not big on them anymore. I had problems with the rudder going out of whack, problems with buttons stopping working, and this repeated problem where the device just couldn't handle me ripping the stick off the base in frustration.

I recently lucked out and found an X52 for 48 bucks. LOVE IT! I also have some CH products (yoke and pedals), and can say their products are top notch.

codeseven7
02-09-2006, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tagTaken2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by codeseven7:
the MSFF2 is THE best FF stick available. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MSFF2 is no longer available, unless you're lucky/cashed-up... perhaps the fortunate (high 5! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) should stop posting about how great it is and offer constructive advice on the next best option...

Force feedback is the way to go, in the opinion of many. Consider this: would you rather watch pr0n, or make love?
All I can suggest is that you look at every possible review of FFB sticks, check ebay for the sidewinder, and avoid logitech sticks like the plague. I had one for 5 months and it was rubbish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Listen to tagTaken2, FF is the way to go for immersion/realism. As I've posted, I bought what I believe is one of the best non-FF sticks out there, the CH Fighterstick, and it still didn't fill the void left when you dont have FF. Also, as far as how well FF adds realism to a flightsim, it cracks me up to hear people complain about not being able to control their plane as well or hit targets as easy because of FF, welcome to reality, FF is doing exactly what it's supposed to do, replicate the aerodynamic and mechanical forces that would be transmitted to your control stick as it would be in real life (the answer is no, I've never flown a WW2 fighter, but I have flown aircraft that utilize a control stick and depending on the aircraft and the amount of damping built in, you do indeed feel forces transmitted through your stick during flight). The game engine will take care of the 50% that you see on the monitor, FF will take care of the other 50% you can actually feel through your joystick, together they give you a much more immersive/realistic experience.

As far as buying a MSFF2 stick, it's true MS stopped making them years ago, your best bet is indeed e-bay and because their so popular among FF proponents and so easiliy sold, you can find several on e-bay any day of the week.

http://www.e-bay.com/

Just type in Microsoft Force Feedback 2 joystick or Microsoft joysticks or Sidewinder.

Do yourself a favor, stick with FF and get the MSFF2, you wont regret it.

Oldcrow1129
02-09-2006, 06:41 PM
Okay fellars,

I'm convinced. I'll go grab a MSFF2 off Ebay. Thanks for all the info. I've read much the same in the archive. As MSFF2 seems to be universally acknowledged as the best FF stick, I suppose the quickest way to determine if FF is right for me is to go with the best.

I do think I'll use a throttle with the rudder control on it though. I just can't get used to twisting the stick for rudder. I've been out of flight sims a while (stopped in RB3 hey day) and they didn't have rudder by twisting the joystick back then. I just can't get used to it.

codeseven7
02-09-2006, 09:34 PM
Good decision Oldcrow. There are at least a couple of versions of the MSFF2 stick, I was told both have the same mechanical innards, but I cant confirm that. The last and 'best' model of the MSFF2 produced is the much sought after 'red box' version. It has a really nice feeling soft rubber coated grip and translucent red trigger and buttons on top. New, in the box, the red box version has gone for over $300! Thats for an old, 'outdated', out of production joystick that went for a little over $100 when it was brand new! That gives you some idea of how highly thought of these sticks are. As a matter of fact, it seems alot of MSFF2 owners go as far as spending money on a second MSFF2 stick just to have in case their first one ever breaks even though I've read folks have been using the same stick trouble free for years.

So check out e-bay, any MSFF2 with low usage on it and that appears to be in good shape from the pictures should be fine. I wouldn't advise buying anything on e-bay without 'actual' pictures. I say 'actual' because e-bay lets sellers get away with posting catalog pictures of their items for sale rather the actual item itself, very decietful.

codeseven