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rmorgansmith
01-18-2007, 07:05 PM
Just a few comments on the general concept of the Bf-109G-6. I have 46 installed and Battle over Europe and have not in the past spent much time flying the Bf-109G-6, anyway I started a late war German campaign and I wanted to fly Fw-190 s, did a few missions and got wounded in the Butcher Bird so the computer put me in the hospital for a few weeks and when I got back I was flying the Gustav in Rumania against the Mustang and the T-Bolt and B-17.

I just am amazed at what a hunk of junk the Gustav is. Cannot catch anything, can turn ok with them but the 30mm is totally useless against manuevering fighters and has no combat persistance due to low ammo load so deflection shooting is not a viable option. Then you are left with the two 13mm which are ok and I have a few kills with them but because it is so hard to close with anything really tough.

On my last mission there was a Mustang with a dead engine but a live pilot glideing down with my squadron of AI buddies in pursuit, luckily they cannot fly or shoot as everyone knows so I decided to kill the thing and vulch the kill ( to borrow a phrase from the online community, I play offline only}, the darn thing could still out fly me with no engine, twisting and turning and doing a heck of a job staying alive.

I did kill him eventually but took all of my ammunition. My opinion is that it was a patch up job of an airplane, I know Hartmann got a few kills in it... but the armament setup is just a joke, the 30mm does not have enough ammunition to kill a bomber, the 13mm is ok but two of them is not much better than an Oscar, it just seems the Germans would have been better off going with one caliber and not abandoning wing guns altogether and giving the darn thing some ammo. I guess it was a smaller airframe than the Butcher Bird and they were up against that fact all the time but it just seems like a hodge podge.

rmorgansmith
01-18-2007, 07:05 PM
Just a few comments on the general concept of the Bf-109G-6. I have 46 installed and Battle over Europe and have not in the past spent much time flying the Bf-109G-6, anyway I started a late war German campaign and I wanted to fly Fw-190 s, did a few missions and got wounded in the Butcher Bird so the computer put me in the hospital for a few weeks and when I got back I was flying the Gustav in Rumania against the Mustang and the T-Bolt and B-17.

I just am amazed at what a hunk of junk the Gustav is. Cannot catch anything, can turn ok with them but the 30mm is totally useless against manuevering fighters and has no combat persistance due to low ammo load so deflection shooting is not a viable option. Then you are left with the two 13mm which are ok and I have a few kills with them but because it is so hard to close with anything really tough.

On my last mission there was a Mustang with a dead engine but a live pilot glideing down with my squadron of AI buddies in pursuit, luckily they cannot fly or shoot as everyone knows so I decided to kill the thing and vulch the kill ( to borrow a phrase from the online community, I play offline only}, the darn thing could still out fly me with no engine, twisting and turning and doing a heck of a job staying alive.

I did kill him eventually but took all of my ammunition. My opinion is that it was a patch up job of an airplane, I know Hartmann got a few kills in it... but the armament setup is just a joke, the 30mm does not have enough ammunition to kill a bomber, the 13mm is ok but two of them is not much better than an Oscar, it just seems the Germans would have been better off going with one caliber and not abandoning wing guns altogether and giving the darn thing some ammo. I guess it was a smaller airframe than the Butcher Bird and they were up against that fact all the time but it just seems like a hodge podge.

carguy_
01-18-2007, 07:27 PM
Well at first you must know the Bf109G6Early is slightly porked. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Armament - accounts often contradict each other whether it was effective or not.

Pilots,those good pilots,said that even a single nose mounted 20mm did the job whereas the Oberkommando Luftwaffe told`em to carry wingmounted gunpods.

Some say that three 30mm MK108 shells were needed to bring a B17 down,some say that 10 weren` enough.

Ingame it is like in between.Two 30mm shells aimed at the same spot destroy pretty much everything.High ROF allows deflection shots but that is hardly prectical since

1 - you do not need 30mm to shoot fighters
2 - bombers do not need much deflection shooting to be destroyed.

The G6Early is definitely the worst of them all.G6/AS and late model can stand up to latest foes if flown right.
And still,the climbrate is better than most alied birds.

As for machineguns,this game requires under 100m distance for them to be effective,with an exception of Russian UBB and Shkas.From 30m even 8mm can do big damage.

P51.
You won`t catch it but you can outturn it under 320km/h and you can outclimb it,so it`s a fun matchup.

Versus the SpitfireIX and Yak3/9U it is hit and run only.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Self-proclaimed dedicated Willywhiner since July 2002
: Badsight.:"increased manouverability for bf-109s was satire" :
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Xiolablu3
01-18-2007, 07:32 PM
You can use 20mm in the G6.

Also you can use gunpods for 2x extra 20mm's.

It is a step back in handling, but its the most numerous Bf109 ever built with around 20,000 compared to around 2000 109F's for example. Also its still quite fast, being able to outrun a Spitfire IX standard on the level.

Its built for mass production and versatility, so many different additions could be field modded to the plane, made it useful in many different situations.

Remember that Fighter to Fighter work is only one part of a single engined fighters duties.

If an Allied plane met a German fighter in WW2 there was a big, big chance it was a Bf109G6.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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rmorgansmith
01-18-2007, 07:54 PM
Thanks for the input. When playing offline you cannot outclimb the P-51 or the T-Bolt ( with the Gustav ) because of the built in AI advantage that Oleg has admitted is built in on purpose which to me is absurd, I have played this game for a long time and it is just stupid to have to go into the QMB and build scenarios where you are taking a plane that is so far superior to your adversary ie; boosted Spitfires against Japanese planes or earlier Germand birds just to get an even match.

I really hope that with BOB, SOW, the offline play is as spot on as possible, with the amount of data and documentation available on the battle and machines involved it should be possible to have the planes perform realistically.

Is it different on-line? Does the overheat and climb rate become realistic? I know there are many posts on the problems with the Hellcat and I agree it seems really limited and has no advantages over the Zero, but when I fly the Zero I cannot kill a Hellcat to save my life, can't catch it and when you get a shot in it just takes a beating, which is real but I am in the Hellcat get riddled.

Xiolablu3
01-18-2007, 07:59 PM
Mate, I am gathering you are new to the game, your instinct is to turn. same as me when I started, Air Fighting = Dog fighting is what I thought. If thinking like this then a WW1 biplane with 2x20mm would be the best plane in the world wouldnt it? You have one in the i153P, so why wasnt this the best plane in WW2?

Keep practising and learn about 'energy fighting', your attitude towards the Hellcat/FW190/P51 will change drastically. I much prefer the Hellcat to the Zero these days.

Remember that it was very rare than planes fought each other 1 on 1, each plane fought with a partner.

I recommend you get online as soon as you can if you want to learn more about flying these faster, but worse turning planes. You will find they arent as bad as you first think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The fact that the AI can fly 'superhuman' is not really surprising, they know exactly how to get the best out of the planes from the maths. We are human and make lots of errors. Get online as soon as you can, after you do, you will wonder why you didnt do it earlier, and shootng down 'drones' seems a waste of time compared to a battle of wits with a human opponent..

A good way to learn would be to set up a QMB with you in a FW190A4 and 3 SPitfire Vb's against you. Start with an advantage if you want. Once you can shoot them all down with no problems, you will have learned about energy fighting, because it would be pretty impossible to do without it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Think Vertical, not horizontal.

This passage from Capt Eric Brown describes the manouvres required, and describes the fight between Energy fighters and turnfighters in the game very well, especially the FW190A4 and Spitfire Vb.

'It was concluded that the Fw 190 pilot trying to "mix it" with a Spitfire in the classic fashion of steep turning was doomed, for at any speed - even below the German fighter's stalling speed - it would be out-turned by its British opponent. Of course, the Luftwaffe was aware of this fact and a somewhat odd style of dogfighting evolved in which the Fw 190 pilots endeavored to keep on the vertical plane by zooms and dives, while their Spitfire-mounted antagonists tried everything in the book to draw them on to the horizontal. If the German pilot lost his head and failed to resist the temptation to try a horizontal pursuit curve on a Spitfire, as likely as not, before he could recover the speed lost in a steep turn he would find another Spitfire turning inside him! On the other hand, the German pilot who kept zooming up and down was usually the recipient of only difficult deflection shots of more than 30 deg. The Fw 190 had tremendous initial acceleration in a dive but it was extremely vulnerable during a pull-out, recovery having to be quite progressive with care not to kill the speed by "sinking". '


It is possible to be quite untouchable in the FW190A4 vs Spitfire Vb's, so practice this. Try to never let your speed drop below 300kph and stay much faster than that if you can. If you get stuck then come back and ask for some more help. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Once you have mastered this, Zero should pose less of a problem for your Hellcat, although the Gulf between the Hellcat and the contemporary Zero in game is not as big as between the Fw190A4 and the Spitfire Vb. You can move onto Hellcat vs Zero when you have mastered this.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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rmorgansmith
01-18-2007, 08:18 PM
Not new to the game at all, been playing, offline only I admit, which may be kind of wimpy, for 2+ years. I am a student of military history and understand energy management very well. It is just that at some point one must bring ones guns to bear and you have to turn a bit to do that. When I fly the Mustang or T-bolt I cannot perform the vertical manouvers the AI can on me, you should see some of the stuff they do, hanging on in hammerheads then turning and gaining on me as I am in a shallow dive trying to gain E, closing on me in a firing pass and then zooming by and back up again, when I fly those aircraft that way the Gustavs always have more E and kill me.

AI wingmen are useless and I fully understand the concept of the superior tactics of U.S. teamwork. I remember one Japanese pilots memoirs saying that he thought our team sports like football gave us and advantage.

Vike
01-18-2007, 08:19 PM
Xiola,the G6 was the most built version,but certainly not as much as 20000 (!?)

About the ~35000 Me109 built,12000 max were G6 version...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

...Unless you inlcuded G6/AS;G10 which derived from G6;K4 which derived from G10 (&gt;itself derived from G6 as previously said);G14 which derived from G6/U2;G14/AS which derived from G6/AS...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LOL

I like the G6Early,it has a very good handling,and behaves like a Me109-G2 when diving;It is nevertheless the worst of the Me109 serie in this sim,i must agree...For the west front http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

For the East front,against all models of La5 (basic,F & FN) it can handle them at ~4000/4500m
Idem for the contemporary Yaks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Nevertheless,i managed to shoot down a SpitIXe with it in WarClouds West-Front server,in the beginning of the week (&gt;pseudo:WannabeUber http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ).

Cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Xiolablu3
01-18-2007, 08:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rmorgansmith:
Not new to the game at all, been playing, offline only I admit, which may be kind of wimpy, for 2+ years. I am a student of military history and understand energy management very well. It is just that at some point one must bring ones guns to bear and you have to turn a bit to do that. When I fly the Mustang or T-bolt I cannot perform the vertical manouvers the AI can on me, you should see some of the stuff they do, hanging on in hammerheads then turning and gaining on me as I am in a shallow dive trying to gain E, closing on me in a firing pass and then zooming by and back up again, when I fly those aircraft that way the Gustavs always have more E and kill me.

AI wingmen are useless and I fully understand the concept of the superior tactics of U.S. teamwork. I remember one Japanese pilots memoirs saying that he thought our team sports like football gave us and advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, too much assuming. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I thought when you said that the Hellcat was inferior to the Zero that you must be new to the game.

Most people who have been flying the game for a long time seem to prefer the Hellcat, including me.

Teach me to 'assume', doh


You know more than me about the 109 Vike, so I am likely wrong about 20,000. Thanks for the info. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

tigertalon
01-18-2007, 08:28 PM
just to add a few thoughts on G6: it's the worst of all 109s compared to the oposition. I even prefer F4 over G6 for air to air, single engined targets. SpitIX/VIII outeverythings G6 so bad you are already dead when you spawn. Same with Yak3, although you have some chances against it at altitudes above 6 or 7k. Versus late american birds your only hope is avoiding their attacks by using superior turn at low spees, however that's just postponing the inevitable. Stay in G2 as long as you can and get into an alcoholic 109 as soon as you can, skiping G6E/L as fast as you can.

yeah, the number 20k stands for G series overall, not only G6 I think.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

Xiolablu3
01-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Anyone know if the 109G6 Early/Late is actually faster than the Spitfire VIII/IX standard on the level?

I think it is, but am not totally sure.

I know generally the 109 is faster than the contemporary Spitfire in the game Marks, but is it in his case?

At least if it is faster this gives you the hit and run option.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

rmorgansmith
01-18-2007, 08:46 PM
Yeah, Tiger Talon, I remember a campaign I did a few months ago with the F-4 and it was a sweet bird but it was an early war Eastern front campaign and it almost did not seem fair, really superior to the Russian fighters of that era, even given the AI advantage.

I can't imagine it would have a chance against the late war American birds.

I really like the FW-190, all that firepower and ammo load, not afraid to take the shot but it is hard to see for deflection shooting in the Butcher Bird.

Vike
01-18-2007, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Anyone know if the 109G6 Early/Late is actually faster than the Spitfire VIII/IX standard on the level?

I think it is, but am not totally sure.

I know generally the 109 is faster than the contemporary Spitfire in the game Marks, but is it in his case?

At least if it is faster this gives you the hit and run option. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ingame,our two Me109-G6s have those spec:

G6-Early:
530km/h TAS max at sea level (rads closed,map:Crimea)

G6-Late:
537km/h TAS max at sea level (rads closed,map:Crimea)

For the Spit:

SpitMkVIII:
540Km/h TAS max at sea level in same conditions

SpitMkIXe (It is faster than any of the clipped versions,and than the IXc too):
541km/h TAS max at sea level in same conditions

TTalon,if you fly the G6 in a tandem,equipped with MK108 or MG151,you could give very bad surprises to some contemporary Spits! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Otherwise,if you're alone...Ehemmm... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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VW-IceFire
01-18-2007, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Anyone know if the 109G6 Early/Late is actually faster than the Spitfire VIII/IX standard on the level?

I think it is, but am not totally sure.

I know generally the 109 is faster than the contemporary Spitfire in the game Marks, but is it in his case?

At least if it is faster this gives you the hit and run option. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to IL2 compare...the G-6 Early and Late are both about on par with the Spitfire at sea level but with altitude the Spitfire LF IX will outrun both of them. The G-2 on the other hand is generally the same speed or faster. The G-6A/S is plenty faster with MW50 and about on par without. Then once you get to the G-14 and G-10 the speed is quite a bit higher.

The G-6 isn't the greatest of the 109s but with some energy going into the fight and its stability and firepower (which is good to exceptional for the period) it can do quite well. VPmedia's Hungarian campaign (which is split G-6 and G-10) is pretty tough in the G-6 missions and you're thankful for the better G-10 but its never completely inferior as it has quite a few beneficial qualities you can leverage.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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totalspoon
01-18-2007, 10:25 PM
There's nothing wrong with the 30mm even against fighters. You just have to pick your mark

Here's a track from an 8 on 8 online between II/JG2 and _RAAF_. There's four gun and one manouver kill with ammo to spare...

http://h1.ripway.com/totalspoon/quick0035.ntrk

Totalspoon

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster" Han Solo

Jasko76
01-19-2007, 12:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:
...K4 which derived from G10 (&gt;itself derived from G6 as previously said);G14 which derived from G6/U2;G14/AS which derived from G6/AS...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, AFAIK, K4 predates the G10 slightly. G10s were mostly refurbished airframes, brought up to the latest standards. Not many were built as such from the scratch.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Vike
01-19-2007, 12:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by totalspoon:
There's nothing wrong with the 30mm even against fighters. You just have to pick your mark

Here's a track from an 8 on 8 online between II/JG2 and _RAAF_. There's four gun and one manouver kill with ammo to spare...

http://h1.ripway.com/totalspoon/quick0035.ntrk

Totalspoon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Astonishing track mate,THAT are rocking KILLS against those Spits! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But,

The Me109-Kurfurst has the best aerodynamic fuselage shape and the best engine to carry and use the combo MG131+MK108.

In this thread,we're talking about the Me109-G6Early,which has the worst characteristics for carrying such armament...I.E. sluggish engine,poor aerodynamic fuselage shape. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

What you show in the track,which is quite impressive by the way,is simply impossible to do in a Early-G6,unless "Miracle",against four Spit MKIX... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Moreover,MK108 needs some speed and a tremendous engine to be used properly.
At +500km/h ias,the 30mm bursts are straight-right,which is appreciable! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But 500km/h ias isn't very common while flying the G6Early...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

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JG53Frankyboy
01-19-2007, 02:06 AM
well, fighting Yak-9D/T, LaGG3ser66, La5F, P-39N, P-38J, SpitfireIX, P-51B can be a very serious business in game................

the only thing i can say is that the difference in handling and performance between the G-2 and the G-6 is to big in my opinion.

but i cant say if the G-2 is too good or the G-6 is too bad - most propably the "solution" would be in the middle.................

see here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1211020425

JG52Karaya-X
01-19-2007, 02:24 AM
General problem with both G6s (early and late) is their undermodelled turnrate. Right now their best turning time is 23secs at 310km/h. That is 2,5secs worse than the G2 which after all has the same engine and is 70kg lighter. 23secs is even higher than a real-life G6 with gunpod would need to perform a full circle. A turntime of 21secs would be the correct value!

Correcting the turnrate would not only improve the agility of the G6 but also its energy retention which is aweful right now.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Brain32
01-19-2007, 05:08 AM
Since we exchange tracks I have one that shows just how it sucks to be 109 pilot in this game and how mk108 is nothing special, infact it shows just how much the gun sucks in the game.
http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/9139a21e-0487-452f-8df0-7221f953f53e
For those that don't feel like DL'ing and watching, the track starts when after 6 complete circles at sub 280kmh a Tempest finally get's nervous and drops a wing(BTW what an incredible BS turn rate, but okay I can live with it). Although he can still disengage, he continues into slow climbing manouvering, so I did manage to keep up with this 5 ton heavy aeroplane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Anyway the guy recieved atleast 4 shots with mk108, and who knows how many mg131. Only one shot produced some serious damage, I was out of 108's and didn't want to follow the guy (which was still able to fly!!!) to the deck as my uber 109 can't take even 4 .50 cal hits. The "kill" was stolen from me in the end by a greedy FW190 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
In other words, good luck with 109, it takes a lot of work and patience to fly it well, but it's not worth it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Roll on SoW with Chanel 1941 expansion pack(FW190A3 FTW) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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tigertalon
01-19-2007, 07:49 AM
Couldn't resist testing it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Crimea, standard conditions, spawn 100m, default loadout, 100% fuel, rads closed, pp100% on spits, auto on 109s, descended to below 10m and never got above it.

Speeds I was able to reach and sustain:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/SpitIXc.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/SpitVIII.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/109G6L.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/109G6E.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

HayateAce
01-19-2007, 07:56 AM
Geez, have a big swig.

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mynameisroland
01-19-2007, 08:01 AM
Ive taken Mk 108 hits on the tail on two seperate occasions in the Tempest and flown on with no effect, any hits on the wing however cause that torn open DM effect and awful Fw 190 style handling.

PS cant wait for Fw 190 A3 SoW too!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/boemherTempII2.jpg

mynameisroland
01-19-2007, 08:26 AM
TigerTalon can you please Test the Tempest ? I cant seem to exceed 580 km/h on Crimea 100% 100%<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/boemherTempII2.jpg

tigertalon
01-19-2007, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
TigerTalon can you please Test the Tempest ? I cant seem to exceed 580 km/h on Crimea 100% 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, 580 seems to be the limit for for open rads. 100%fuel, pp100%, closed rad, default loadout, never climbed above 10m:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Tempest-1.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

mynameisroland
01-19-2007, 09:48 AM
Did you trim out with rudder trim ? I was flying untrimmed with radiator closed - apparantly.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/boemherTempII2.jpg

Marcel_Albert
01-19-2007, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rmorgansmith:
Thanks for the input. When playing offline you cannot outclimb the P-51 or the T-Bolt ( with the Gustav ) because of the built in AI advantage that Oleg has admitted is built in on purpose which to me is absurd, I have played this game for a long time and it is just stupid to have to go into the QMB and build scenarios where you are taking a plane that is so far superior to your adversary ie; boosted Spitfires against Japanese planes or earlier Germand birds just to get an even match.

I really hope that with BOB, SOW, the offline play is as spot on as possible, with the amount of data and documentation available on the battle and machines involved it should be possible to have the planes perform realistically.

Is it different on-line? Does the overheat and climb rate become realistic? I know there are many posts on the problems with the Hellcat and I agree it seems really limited and has no advantages over the Zero, but when I fly the Zero I cannot kill a Hellcat to save my life, can't catch it and when you get a shot in it just takes a beating, which is real but I am in the Hellcat get riddled. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I fully agree , i love this sim , but this is my biggest grief against IL-2 , the AI cheating on speed , climbrate , UFO zooming , Mach 1.5 dive , and unrealistic barrel rolls , rudder moves without losing speed , Never surprised , shoot in clouds etc....

It is really the most annoying thing in this sim , i can't stand it , and i've completely stopped playing offline as a consequence and play now exclusively online , i noticed that when you don't put the AI in veteran or ace , it partially solve the problem though .

Tha AI Really need a Major rework for SoW:BOB , that's for sure , but we have also to acknowledge that what we have is the best that is available up to today , when IL-2 went out a few years ago , the AI was a revolution , now it's really outdated because our expectations are way higher<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---------------------------------
"Non Nobis Domine , Non Nobis , Sed Nomini Tuo Da Gloriam."
In Memoriam Jacques de Molay .

tigertalon
01-19-2007, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Did you trim out with rudder trim ? I was flying untrimmed with radiator closed - apparantly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, trim is imperative, especially pitch one. Aileron trim would also be wellcome tho but is absent on most fighters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

PFflyer
01-19-2007, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My opinion is that it was a patch up job of an airplane, I know Hartmann got a few kills in it... but the armament setup is just a joke, the 30mm does not have enough ammunition to kill a bomber, the 13mm is ok but two of them is not much better than an Oscar, it just seems the Germans would have been better off going with one caliber and not abandoning wing guns altogether and giving the darn thing some ammo. I guess it was a smaller airframe than the Butcher Bird and they were up against that fact all the time but it just seems like a hodge podge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


So you are using your experience flying the 109G6 in a kiddie/gamer computer flight sim to comment on the real-life 109G6 in WWII?

That is damned funny.

WWMaxGunz
01-19-2007, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rmorgansmith:
Just a few comments on the general concept of the Bf-109G-6. I have 46 installed and Battle over Europe and have not in the past spent much time flying the Bf-109G-6, anyway I started a late war German campaign and I wanted to fly Fw-190 s, did a few missions and got wounded in the Butcher Bird so the computer put me in the hospital for a few weeks and when I got back I was flying the Gustav in Rumania against the Mustang and the T-Bolt and B-17.

I just am amazed at what a hunk of junk the Gustav is. Cannot catch anything, can turn ok with them but the 30mm is totally useless against manuevering fighters and has no combat persistance due to low ammo load so deflection shooting is not a viable option. Then you are left with the two 13mm which are ok and I have a few kills with them but because it is so hard to close with anything really tough.

On my last mission there was a Mustang with a dead engine but a live pilot glideing down with my squadron of AI buddies in pursuit, luckily they cannot fly or shoot as everyone knows so I decided to kill the thing and vulch the kill ( to borrow a phrase from the online community, I play offline only}, the darn thing could still out fly me with no engine, twisting and turning and doing a heck of a job staying alive.

I did kill him eventually but took all of my ammunition. My opinion is that it was a patch up job of an airplane, I know Hartmann got a few kills in it... but the armament setup is just a joke, the 30mm does not have enough ammunition to kill a bomber, the 13mm is ok but two of them is not much better than an Oscar, it just seems the Germans would have been better off going with one caliber and not abandoning wing guns altogether and giving the darn thing some ammo. I guess it was a smaller airframe than the Butcher Bird and they were up against that fact all the time but it just seems like a hodge podge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should study the military history of Hartmann, his writings for example.
Nothing you write here tells me you use that plane as he did. In fact, more the opposite.

Have you made tracks and played them back with arcade=1 to see your hits?

Vike
01-19-2007, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Since we exchange tracks I have one that shows just how it sucks to be 109 pilot in this game and how mk108 is nothing special, infact it shows just how much the gun sucks in the game.
http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/9139a21e-0487-452f-8df0-7221f953f53e </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG,don't take it too bad,but what you did against this Tempest was completely AWFUL in this Me109G6/AS. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I know you're a very good pilot in Fw190/Spit,and particularly valuable in the Blue-Side on WC-WF,but in this Messerschmitt,IRL,i think you should have lived one day,or even one fight with these tactics! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Close the canopy of this Me109 and don't open it any more! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Enormous errors i noticed:
1/-The use of Take-Off flaps in the turnfight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
2/-The use of full guns,while shooting with MK108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
3-The no-use of cooling radiators http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
4/-The use of much tooooooooooo long bursts with MK108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

My experiments for those points:

1/-Combat flaps are WIDELY enough.They constitute the best compromise between turn radius versus speed loss.
By example,the K4-C3 with combat flaps turns as smoother as the G2 without them (i say "as smoother",not "as shorter" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)
Combat flaps are useful on the Me109Late (&gt;G6 onwards)

2/-If you carry 30mm in the nose,OMG use the guns separately! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
MG-131s can "leech" the target and can slow it,even at some distance.
MK108 is effective under a range of 400m,and BTW,ONE shell does dammage the target enormously,even if it seems in "one piece" from an exterior view. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

3/-Did you use auto-Rads? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
If yes,you must know that they open widely in a short time because of the DB605+MW50 heating;that means &lt;=&gt; Open mode =&gt;18km/h TAS lost!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif
When closed,the engine overheats quickly yes,but it can run 6'45" at this state,and at 0% + open rads,its takes 25" to recover the "normal" temperature after a long overheat period (like 5mn).
So,in a fight you can run full-throttle with closed rads + overheating for 6'20",then immediately put power at 0% and open you rads;In 25" all should be ok.

4/-With 65 MK108 shells,you have potentially 65 kills to make at each sortie.Yes i'm a bit optimistic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif,but please keep it in mind,concentrate yourself a bit more when firing and you'll see.

Considering all of these points,the only plane in the sim that can *still* annoy the Me109Late is the SpitMKIX

@+

Here is what i get when using the Me109Late on Warclouds;

- Here for the guns stats. (http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/Vike01/Uber.jpg)
- Here for the stats online. (http://www.war-clouds.com/modules.php?name=TARGET&theatre=WF&op=playerstats&pilotid=2159)

No track sorry,my PC isn't enough strong to make Online DogFighting and run a track simultaneously. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Vike, they are talking 109G-6 Early which every point still holds but your stats are with Late.

Also every other Mk108 shell is MG with incendiary shells between. But 30mm incendiary still
hits hard maybe more than 20mm AP... do you find 1 hit kills with those 108 non-MG shells?

Just noticing couple things, I like all what you say!

Don't fence with broadswords and a sabre is not a foil?

Vike
01-19-2007, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Vike, they are talking 109G-6 Early which every point still holds but your stats are with Late. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem mate,i was answering to the Brain32's post with the use of the MK108 + G6/AS in his ntrk file. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For the G6Early,i already discussed of it here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8431078525?r=3211098525#3211098525) and there (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8431078525?r=8701039525#8701039525) in the first page of this thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Also every other Mk108 shell is MG with incendiary shells between. But 30mm incendiary still
hits hard maybe more than 20mm AP... do you find 1 hit kills with those 108 non-MG shells?

Just noticing couple things, I like all what you say! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK,we don't have any incendiary shell for the MK108 in this sim.Just the High-Explosive ones,so... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

@+

[edited]Little mistake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG53Frankyboy
01-19-2007, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Vike, they are talking 109G-6 Early which every point still holds but your stats are with Late. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem mate,i was answering to the Brain32 post with the use of the MK108 + G6/AS in his ntrk file. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For the G6Early,i already discussed of it here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8431078525?r=3211098525#3211098525) and there (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8431078525?r=8701039525#8701039525) in the first page of this thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Also every other Mk108 shell is MG with incendiary shells between. But 30mm incendiary still
hits hard maybe more than 20mm AP... do you find 1 hit kills with those 108 non-MG shells?

Just noticing couple things, I like all what you say! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK,we don't have any incendiary shell for the MK108 in this sim.Just the MGeschoB and the AP ones,so... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

@+ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AP would not make much sense in a low velocity canon like the MK108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

we have :
MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072

HellToupee
01-19-2007, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

It is a step back in handling, but its the most numerous Bf109 ever built with around 20,000 compared to around 2000 109F's for example. Also its still quite fast, being able to outrun a Spitfire IX standard on the level.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

its slower at all heights than the spit IX

Vike
01-19-2007, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:AP would not make much sense in a low velocity canon like the MK108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure i agree,but ingame,we haven't the incendiary "feature"...Both shell explode on target,but the HEIT ones simply make "boom" like a simple HE.In a way,it is a "HET" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

@+<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://vike01.free.fr/images/avatars/signIL2.jpg
- AthlonXP 2400Mhz + 1024MB DDR CL 2.0
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- Aka JV69_Vike http://vike01.free.fr/images/avatars/jv69.jpg

JG52Karaya-X
01-19-2007, 02:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:
Enormous errors i noticed:
1/-The use of Take-Off flaps in the turnfight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The use of takeoff flaps can be very useful at times, especially in a climbing scissor! Of course one shouldnt overdo it as they bleed more speed than combat flaps.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2/-The use of full guns,while shooting with MK108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whats so bad about it? The MGs dont create that much extra shake/recoil and they are nice for damaging engines or even setting them on fire (Spits, Tempests, etc..)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">4/-The use of much tooooooooooo long bursts with MK108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cant say anything about this as I didnt watch the track but I usually use short bursts of 3-4 shells and see wether I hit and if it was sufficient to cripple/kill the bogey, if not I repeat over.

BTW in 4071m both the G6early and late are practically identical in peformance and largely undermodelled in their turntime (23secs instead of 21secs). They on default loadout actually have a worse turntime than a RL G6 with gunpods...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/Karaya/Black_Devil.gif (http://www.geocities.com/jg52thebutcherbirds/index1.html)
The tiger leaves no smell and doesn't make a sound, but you know he is there.
There is something in the shadows - it's the tiger waiting for you.

Xiolablu3
01-19-2007, 03:49 PM
The early 109's are great, its the later ones after the 109G6 which are just outclassed.

In my opinion the 109F4 is hte best plane in the game in 1941 by quite a bit.

By 1942, the FW190A4 is on a par with the 109G2 and then the FW190 just takes over.

Its consistent with historical opinions (Galland etc) that the 109 was getting past its best by 1944.

Maybe the 109G6 should be a bit better tho - I am not sure.


On the Tempests low speed handling, yes its a big heavy plane but look at the size of the wings compared to the 109 and the FW190, they are MASSIVE. Its not surprising it has OK low speed handling.

http://bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/planesize.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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-Voltaire

Xiolablu3
01-19-2007, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PFflyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My opinion is that it was a patch up job of an airplane, I know Hartmann got a few kills in it... but the armament setup is just a joke, the 30mm does not have enough ammunition to kill a bomber, the 13mm is ok but two of them is not much better than an Oscar, it just seems the Germans would have been better off going with one caliber and not abandoning wing guns altogether and giving the darn thing some ammo. I guess it was a smaller airframe than the Butcher Bird and they were up against that fact all the time but it just seems like a hodge podge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


So you are using your experience flying the 109G6 in a kiddie/gamer computer flight sim to comment on the real-life 109G6 in WWII?

That is damned funny. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Please tell us, oh wise one, where do we find a more realistic WW2 sim?

Many planes in Il2 sim match their numbers exactly, especially the ones added in the last 2 years.. SO why shouldnt we talk about the 109G6 and any faults it may have?

The 109G6 was one of the very old planes in the original Forgotten Battles, when the flight models will have been much more simple and many improvements have been made since. Its time for an update.

I dont think there are many Kids flying htis sim, I have only met one 16 year old online ever. Most people are 20-60.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

Kurfurst__
01-19-2007, 04:44 PM
The G-6 appeared in February 1943, and was around in numbers by mid-1943 it should be compared to it's contemporary and main adversaries - basically you compare it to some late war aircraft like P-51 etc. Of course it suffers. And of course remaining G-6s met those more advanced planes just as Spit Vs or Hurricanes could have met say Me 262s in 1944, as some were still around.

But during 1943, where the G-6 version have was most used, it met largely Yak 1s and 9s and even older planes on the Russian front, and largely Spit Vs and Typhoons vs the RAF (the IX was pretty rare until late 1943, the IXLF was even rarer at that time), and mid-model P-38 and P-47Ds. Generally it was faster and better climber than most of the adversaries, giving it clear tactical advantage, and the planes that were faster at low or high alts (Typhoon, P-47) were generally much less manouverable.

At the beginning of 1944, when the later Allied planes came, the G-6 was upgraded with superchargers and methanol boost (ie. G-6/AS, G-14), which kept in competitive.

As for the in-game G-6, it's not a bad plane, being quite comparable to the opposition, it's just a much tougher work after posessing all easy superiority in the 109F or G-2 relative to the obsolate enemy types of their era...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Brain32
01-19-2007, 04:56 PM
Vike you haven't seen the whole track http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Enormous errors i noticed:
1/-The use of Take-Off flaps in the turnfight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Isn't it interesting? I barely evaded that Tempest by turning, what you see on the track is after 6 complete circles, and I did not start outturning that Tempest until I dropped my flaps to "Take Off" position. I also think that relation in turn ability between Tempest and 109 is highly questionable.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 2/-The use of full guns,while shooting with MK108 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matter of preference, I have Saitek EVO and secondary fire buttn is quite uncomfortable for me to reach while I manouver.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 3-The no-use of cooling radiators </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Auto "Setting" does a very good job, I simply don't see the need http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 4/-The use of much tooooooooooo long bursts with MK108 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was pi$$ed, however I still hit him 4 feckin times, it's not a 4 engined bomber, it's a single engined fighter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My experiments for those points:

1/-Combat flaps are WIDELY enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It highly depends on situation, that Tempest came from above with superiour E, and it was...errr...it made a bad call and entered sustained turnfight, I had to take her(the 109) to the max to start gaining on that freakin' Tempest, that's it.

Point #2 I explained above.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 3/-Did you use auto-Rads? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I did, I wan't my engine cool for possibility of running away, I always try to secure my survival first, the kill is secondary thus if slightly better speed during engagement means no chance of escape - thanks, but no thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

4) Like I said - I got pi$$ed because the above was going KingTiger on me, and as I usually don't record my flights guess why I hit "record" this time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Close the canopy of this Me109 and don't open it any more! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Funny you mentioned WarClouds stats, as I'm always number 1 or mostly number 2 with both G6AS and G10, the situation is the same now, you are free to look at plane stats there

I think you got a bit hasty but heey, we can all get wrong impressions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

EDIT: Darn spelling, I just came home and it's late http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Vike
01-19-2007, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Funny you mentioned WarClouds stats, as I'm always number 1 or mostly number 2 with both G6AS and G10, the situation is the same now, you are free to look at plane stats there

I think you got a bit hasty but heey, we can all get wrong impressions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem Brain,i know how good you are mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But that track is awful anyway! You have no excuse! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiola:
The early 109's are great, its the later ones after the 109G6 which are just outclassed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that a well maintained Me109-G6/AS till K4 is outclassed in:
-Armament
-Speed,acceleration and top speed
-Climb abilities
-Dive abilities

I don't think at all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Whats so bad about it? The MGs dont create that much extra shake/recoil and they are nice for damaging engines or even setting them on fire (Spits, Tempests, etc..)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing i noticed in Full Guns mode was the very BiG frustration we can feel,when we shoot at a target without getting any damage.When MK108 stops firing,it remains something like 15 seconds of MG131 fire (&gt;with a certain despair like i said);
So,if i can permitt myself,i would do a little comparison between the two modes:

You may find obvious details,but i want to be as exhaustive as possible. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

&gt;&gt;Full Guns mode with MK108&lt;&lt;

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Pro:</span>

+ &gt;More simultaneous projectiles so more chances to hit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<span class="ev_code_red">Contra:</span>

- &gt;Complete uncompatibility between MK108 and MG131s ballisitc,you may tune the convergence for each gun for getting a max chance of hit,but IMHO good luck for this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

- &gt;Plenty of tracers in front of pilot view,because MK108 has a lot of tracers,like MG131; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

- &gt;Unavoidable waste of 13mm ammo,because where the MK108 shell will go IS where a lot of MG131 bullets will go too (&gt;At least in the same direction).So,for let's say five MK108 shells wasted (1/2 sec of fire),you wasted also fifteen 13mm bullets (15 bullets per second for one MG131).Considering the fact there are only 600 bullets stored for 300 shots in our favorite aircraft,i consider this is harmful. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

- &gt;FrameRate hit? (&gt;the tracers + MG131s flashes + shaking screen due to MK108 fire) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

- &gt;Time for fire:As said above,once the last MK108 shell is shot,you can't reasonably hope to make a kill with less than 15 seconds of fire remaining with MG131. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Basically,in full guns mode,you are about to make serious bursts for 6 seconds only.

Now,the let's see the opposite:

&gt;&gt;Separated guns mode with MK108&lt;&lt;

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Pro:</span>

+ &gt;More time to shoot: 21 + 6 seconds of fire for MG131s and MK108 respectfully http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

+ &gt;More versatility,I mean :
The target is going far,trying to escape or is a bit too agile?
&gt;Save 30mm ammo and leech it with MG131s with a rockstable plateform and think to aim at engine or cockpit exactly like if you were in the Me109-F2.
The target is close?
&gt;Finish him with the BiG canon. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

+ &gt;Ease of aiming for the MK108,because the canon provides many tracers that permitt a highly efficient hit rate,when the pilot *fortunately* has only to deal with the MK108 tracers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

+ &gt;Ease of aiming for MG131s,because the plane stays ULTRA-stable. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

+ &gt;FrameRate hit less noticeable,thanks to the lack of MG131 flashes and tracers,when firing MK108;and thanks to the lack of screen-shakes when firing MG131s;At least on my system. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

+ &gt;A bit less vibrations when shooting with MK108 only -i'm not really sure- http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

+ &gt;When botching completely the 30mm ammo,at least,it remains the 600 bullets in the MG131s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<span class="ev_code_red">Contra:</span>

- &gt;Less simultaneous projectiles so less chances to hit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

- &gt;A very high concentration is needed for both types of guns,because when firing them separately,there is NO doubt =&gt; You miss,you miss completely and you understand it very fast,but when you hit you're the king.While in full guns,it is quite a mess (see Brain32's track above).http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Feel free to provide more points of view (+ or -) about the way to open fire on the Me109G6 and later models!

@+

ps:
Considering the MG151/20,Full Guns mode seems reasonable,due to the less numerous 20mm tracers.MG131s tracers are very helpfull in this regard,especially considering that the guns characteristics are comparable.

ps2:

Enjoy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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MrMojok
01-19-2007, 07:32 PM
Wow, Xiola... nice pic. Even look at the difference between the Spitfire/Hurricane and the two German planes. Explains a lot as far as turning.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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anarchy52
01-19-2007, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
Wow, Xiola... nice pic. Even look at the difference between the Spitfire/Hurricane and the two German planes. Explains a lot as far as turning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, of course - imagine the size of Boeing 747 wings, it should run circles around Bf-109.

Vike
01-19-2007, 07:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
Wow, Xiola... nice pic. Even look at the difference between the Spitfire/Hurricane and the two German planes. Explains a lot as far as turning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, of course - imagine the size of Boeing 747 wings, it should run circles around Bf-109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

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HellToupee
01-19-2007, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
But during 1943, where the G-6 version have was most used, it met largely Yak 1s and 9s and even older planes on the Russian front, and largely Spit Vs and Typhoons vs the RAF (the IX was pretty rare until late 1943, the IXLF was even rarer at that time), and mid-model P-38 and P-47Ds. Generally it was faster and better climber than most of the adversaries, giving it clear tactical advantage, and the planes that were faster at low or high alts (Typhoon, P-47) were generally much less manouverable.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So after making a big deal about comparing p51s to g6s u go and make the comparison with a spitV aka 1941....

As of feburary 1943 was around about 7 months since spit IX entered service, pretty compareable to the time from g6 to p51 introduction.

csThor
01-19-2007, 11:51 PM
You're making the mistake of putting aircraft into the "year of introduction" drawers, HellToupee. "Historical matchups" usually aren't based on what was available in a given timeframe but what was used in a certain area.

For example when the germans started introducing the Bf 109 G-2 in June 1942 the VVS was still flying a wild mix of Yak-1s (yes, the vanilla Yak-1), Yak-7s, LaGG-3s, lend-and-lease Hurricanes, early P-40 & P-39 models and often enough even I-16s and I-153s. None of these aircraft can be seen as on par with the G-2, but the soviet pilots had to deal with them in what was available.
Another example is North Africa. The Spitfire got there rather late and for most of the conflict (even well into 1943/44) the Spitfire V was the predominant Spitfire version.

It's just not possible to select a timeframe and say "these aircraft were in service so they are historical matchups". One needs to look at the timeframe and the location to specify true historical matchups ...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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MrMojok
01-20-2007, 12:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
Wow, Xiola... nice pic. Even look at the difference between the Spitfire/Hurricane and the two German planes. Explains a lot as far as turning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, of course - imagine the size of Boeing 747 wings, it should run circles around Bf-109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it were put into this sim, it would.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/f1dude/P51_sig.jpg

Ratsack
01-20-2007, 12:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
...

It's just not possible to select a timeframe and say "these aircraft were in service so they are historical matchups". One needs to look at the timeframe and the location to specify true historical matchups ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Good post.

cheers,
Ratsack<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Xiolablu3
01-20-2007, 02:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
Wow, Xiola... nice pic. Even look at the difference between the Spitfire/Hurricane and the two German planes. Explains a lot as far as turning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, of course - imagine the size of Boeing 747 wings, it should run circles around Bf-109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely big wings on a smallish fighter plane means generally docile low speed handly doesnt it? Sort of the opposite of the FW190 with its tiny wing on a heavy body?

I know turning takes a lot more to work out and the Tempest and FW190 are similar in that respect.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG52Karaya-X
01-20-2007, 02:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:
<span class="ev_code_red">Contra:</span>

- &gt;Complete uncompatibility between MK108 and MG131s ballisitc,you may tune the convergence for each gun for getting a max chance of hit,but IMHO good luck for this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

High angle deflection shots with the Mk108 are a waste of ammo anyway, so I mostly shoot when the angle of attak is 30? or lower, in that case the ballistic curves are reasonably close together.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- &gt;Plenty of tracers in front of pilot view,because MK108 has a lot of tracers,like MG131; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That never was a problem to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- &gt;Unavoidable waste of 13mm ammo,because where the MK108 shell will go IS where a lot of MG131 bullets will go too (&gt;At least in the same direction).So,for let's say five MK108 shells wasted (1/2 sec of fire),you wasted also fifteen 13mm bullets (15 bullets per second for one MG131).Considering the fact there are only 600 bullets stored for 300 shots in our favorite aircraft,i consider this is harmful. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldnt say it is a waste, once your cannon ammo on the late 109s is exhausted it is time for you to rtb anyway because the dual MG131s alone wont justify the risk of staying in combat, they are far too weak to do any significant amount of damage in a short time which will render you highly vulnerable.

So when I fire with all guns I want a maximum probability to do crippling damage. If my cannon shells dont hit (shotgun spray http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) maybe my MGs do connect and maybe damage an engine, smoke a fuel tank, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- &gt;FrameRate hit? (&gt;the tracers + MG131s flashes + shaking screen due to MK108 fire) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not for me at least, I get an average of 100-120fps on WCs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- &gt;Time for fire:As said above,once the last MK108 shell is shot,you can't reasonably hope to make a kill with less than 15 seconds of fire remaining with MG131. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you cant hope to maky ANY kill with the two MGs only, that would be more of an unnecessary risk.

I only use gun bursts of 1sec (at the most, sometimes just a tap on the trigger)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Xiolablu3
01-20-2007, 02:51 AM
I usually fire all guns at once in most planes, I find aiming with cannons much easier when MG's are firing too.

For example, I can make really nice shots with the FW190 and Bf109F4/G2 because it has 2xmg firing as well. Also the Spitfires with 2 cannons and MG's

But - With the Tempest, I miss even targets right in front of me. Also the La5 sometimes.

I dont know what it is, I know both guns have different trajectories, but for some reasons MG's really help with aiming cannons for me<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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HellToupee
01-20-2007, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:

It's just not possible to select a timeframe and say "these aircraft were in service so they are historical matchups". One needs to look at the timeframe and the location to specify true historical matchups ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but then the match up i was referring to was western front.

Applies to german planes to, spitfires arrived in north africa around same time 109f did even tho hurricanes and 109es were probly more common than both. Some people seem to give impression that moment german plane entered service it was common, yet 7 months after spit 9 entered service its considered "rare".

eg

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
But during 1943, where the G-6 version have was most used, it met largely Yak 1s and 9s and even older planes on the Russian front, and largely Spit Vs and Typhoons vs the RAF (the IX was pretty rare until late 1943, the IXLF was even rarer at that time) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but then what was rarer g6 or IX thru 1943.

Kurfurst__
01-20-2007, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
So after making a big deal about comparing p51s to g6s u go and make the comparison with a spitV aka 1941....

As of feburary 1943 was around about 7 months since spit IX entered service, pretty compareable to the time from g6 to p51 introduction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, as Thor said, this was the historical matchup. The data I have for Spitfire IX Squadrons at the end (dec) of 1942 in total is ten Squadrons present in the entire RAF - vs some 40 Sqn using Spit Vs!.

Even mid-1943, the ratio of MkVs vs MkIX was something like 3:1, and there was I believe something like a mere 2 Mk IXLF squadrons amongst the other much less hot MkIXF Sqns. In by-mid 1944, the ratio reversed, but there were still an awful lot of MkVs around, especially in the MTO, which always seem to lag behind ETO in terms of equipment.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Monty_Thrud
01-20-2007, 05:22 AM
There were, funnily enough, nine Squadrons of Spitfire MkIXs on 1st Jan 1943. Three of those are MkIXB(LF).These are for Home front defence.

...Data from "Fighter Command War Diaries ~Jan 42 - June 43"<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
01-20-2007, 05:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
But during 1943, where the G-6 version have was most used, it met largely Yak 1s and 9s and even older planes on the Russian front, and largely Spit Vs and Typhoons vs the RAF (the IX was pretty rare until late 1943, the IXLF was even rarer at that time) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but then what was rarer g6 or IX thru 1943.[/QUOTE]

The numbers I have for Fighter Command in Britain :


'Of the 47 Spitfire Squadrons available at the beginning of 1943, only 10 were equipped with the MkIX. Owing to the difficulties producing enough engines, and demands for the aircraft from other battlefronts, it remained in short supply. This situation did not markedly improve until the second half of the year. As a result, the vast majority of home Spitfire units had to soldier on with the Mk V, even though this aircraft in most respects were totally outclassed by the opposition.'

Source : Ian Carter - Fighter Command, Chaper 5, '1943', pg 92.


The G-6 was definietely not rare, especially since the production lines did not need to be modified much - the G-6 was hardly anything more than your already produced G-2 and G-4 airframe, with a new style of cowling sheet used.

The numbers I have for the Jagdwaffe shows the G-6 become a common ride extremely quickly. It's production and operation use started in February 1943, the numbers I have are for March 1943. During that month 64 Bf 109G-6, 145 Bf 109G-6 trop, and 18 Bf 109G-6/R1 was delivered to the daylight fighter units, making a total of 409 of all G-6 types in service by the end of March, out of 854 Bf 109Gs of all sub-types present. I get about the same ratio in mid-1943 altough there were more Gustavs around overall. These numbers refer to single engined daylight fighter units only. Bf 109E and F were still around, but almost excluseively used by Ergänzungseinheiten, ie. OTU in British terms or in 2nd line service prepearing fresh pilots for the front. This is evident from the usually 0/month aircraft losses attributed to enemy action in the monthly reports.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
01-20-2007, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
There were, funnily enough, nine Squadrons of Spitfire MkIXs on 1st Jan 1943. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have a complete listing how it went, ie. equipment structure and introduction of new equipment during 1943 ?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FluffyDucks2
01-20-2007, 05:56 AM
I have tried downloading Brains track but I keep getting a ling to "esnips" with no option to find his file.
I have done a search on Esnips for the file name and it comes up blank.
Can someone else upload his track and give us a clean,straight link to it please without having to sign up for yet another a third party file hosting service??

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Monty_Thrud
01-20-2007, 06:29 AM
ADGB RAF Fighter Command - 1st Jan 1943

Typhoon IA/IB = 13 Sqdns

Mustang MkI = 15 Sqns

Hurricane Mk IIB/C/D = 7 Sqdns

Spitfire MkIV/VB/VC/VI = 38 Sqdns

Spitfire MkIX = 6 Sqdns

Spitfire MkIXB(LF) = 3 Sqdns

Beaufighter = 15 Sqdns

Mosquito = 5 Sqdns

Hurricane MkIIc & Boston III = 10 Sqdns

Tomahawk MkIIA = 1 Sqdn

All other MkIXs going to Malta and N Africa.

The 43-44 War Diary should be here next week.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kwiatos
01-20-2007, 06:51 AM
For all Bf109 FB flyers i suggest to try how FM of Bf109 is moddeled in B0B2 Wings of Victory expecially in take off and landing stage. One british veteran said in interview that every noob can fly spitfire or hurricane when trying the same in bf109 would be dead. And in BoB2 VOW i feel these worlds like the hell expecially at landings. I could land every time in Spitfire and Hurrciane(still is no so easy) but i have big problem to land correctly in BF109. In FB Bf 109 FM is simply like the stick. Even take off in some Yaks is more problem then in Bf109 which should be rather opposite.

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Bellator_1
01-20-2007, 07:24 AM
The Tempest is grossly over-modelled in this game, in turns on a dime while in reality it barely out-turns a FW-190 Jabo.

Now why is it that the Tempest with its rather large wing-loading advantage can't turn better than a FW-190 Jabo ? - Laminar flow wings is the answer to this question. A wing with a laminar flow profile will have some very nasty stalling characteristics and tendencies, stalling violently at a very low AoA. And there's really only one cure against this problem = LE slats or LE flaps, these will dramatically increase the critical AoA and thereby lift (esp. on a laminar flow wing) by eliminating the disadvantage of the sharp leading edge which is the main reason for the sharp, premature and violent stall of this type of wing.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
01-20-2007, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
ADGB RAF Fighter Command - 1st Jan 1943

Spitfire MkIXB(LF) = 3 Sqdns

All other MkIXs going to Malta and N Africa.

The 43-44 War Diary should be here next week. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks ! But how come there are 3 Sqn of IXB or IXLF in January 1943, ie. 3 months before the operational service entry of the MkIXB in March...? What's the source of this data?

BTW, Neil posted this on AAW a while ago, should be interesting :

As of 18th May 1944.

Spitfires with Sqn's

MkV 531
MKVII 62
MK VIII 209
MK IX 996
Mk XII 22
MK XIV 61.
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JG52Karaya-X
01-20-2007, 07:30 AM
Is this the new mantra?

"omg Yak is teh experten plane - be sure"

Its not easier or more difficult to handle than other planes, its just DIFFERENT, mainly due to the opposite direction of prop-spin meaning that torque pulls the plane in the opposite direction compared to 90% of all other planes. What I personally find easier on the Yaks is riding the stall because you can pull on the stick more than on the 109s. On the latter you reach critical AoA after just a small way of stick travel whereas on most Yaks you can yank it all back and ride the stall nicely.


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Monty_Thrud
01-20-2007, 07:31 AM
Fighter Command War Diaries Jan 1942 - June 1943 Part three ~ John Foreman ISBN 1-871187-39-7<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Xiolablu3
01-20-2007, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bellator_1:
The Tempest is grossly over-modelled in this game, in turns on a dime while in reality it barely out-turns a FW-190 Jabo.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lmao 'turns on a dime', thats just rubbish. AT slow speeds it turns a little better than a FW190, when it should be about the same, thats all. It has very good high speed handling, so if it turns well at very high speed, then thats not really surprising - thats what it was built to do.

It may be able to instantaneous turn, but its sustained turn is very poor.

Come on Bellator, try and post real facts, not rubbish like this.


Maybe I will retailiate with something similar?

'The 109 climb rate is ridiculously overmodelled in this game. How dare Oleg put such a ridiculously overmodelled climb rate on a plane! Its preposterous.' The 109G2 is a clown wagon.

See what I mean?

In reality :-

The Tempest turn maybe a little generous, but then again its slower than the 'proper' 1944 Tempest, simply because its the only model Oleg could get accurate numbers for.

AND

The 109 climb rate is slightly too good. The 109G2 may be a little generously modelled, not too sure.


-----------------------

Spitfire MkIx's wouldnt exactly have been rare in 1943 as far as combat goes, they would be given to the Squadrons on the front line, most likely to see action, whereas the MkV's would be kept at low level or further back.

There were many MkV's in the Med tho. They tried to send MkVIII's there too, but that would be late '43 and 1944.

The 109G6 was a solid fighter plane, and facing its usual opposition in 1943, it would hold its own. Its quite possibly a little hard done by in IL2 in my opinion, especially in turn.

Think of it as a 'Workhorse' like the Spitfire MkV and MkIX, whereas there were less numbers of more glamerous models like the 109G2 and G6A/s, as there were less Griffon Spitfire MkXIV's and XII's<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WWMaxGunz
01-20-2007, 11:49 AM
How soon from G-6 Early we have until G-6 Late we have should show up?
How many planes the Early one is compared to should really be the Late compared?
IMO with the G-6 Early in 43 and the G-6/AS in 44, the what we have and the what there was
then perhaps G-6 Late may be better when -- late 43 or not so late 43?

Okay, I admit I am reaching here (hoping for good answer), someone help on this!