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View Full Version : P47 Etc Us birds and 20mm cannon



Enofinu
01-18-2005, 07:41 AM
Try to down P-47 with 20mm cannon, online or offline, count the hits, and after that think, if it really is realistic. no matter where you shoot to down that plane, almost ALWAYS, you need huge amounts of 20mm hits on it, or at Corsair.

once there was one P47 which took some 200 hits from machine gun and some 10(?) hits from 20mm, and it was like wonder those days, cos we can read about it from books. now, every P47 pilot makes the same wonder. Should downgrade the DM toughness of P47 and Sair.

BBB_Hyperion
01-18-2005, 07:53 AM
Try the Mg/FF or shoot at control cables .)

VW-IceFire
01-18-2005, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
Try to down P-47 with 20mm cannon, online or offline, count the hits, and after that think, if it really is realistic. no matter where you shoot to down that plane, almost ALWAYS, you need huge amounts of 20mm hits on it, or at Corsair.

once there was one P47 which took some 200 hits from machine gun and some 10(?) hits from 20mm, and it was like wonder those days, cos we can read about it from books. now, every P47 pilot makes the same wonder. Should downgrade the DM toughness of P47 and Sair. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually...about 4 hits on a P-47 can doom the plane by taking out two or three control cables and the pilot has to bail.

The P-47 and the Corsair were tough planes. Designed for enormous punishment and capable of taking it. However, my experiences online show equally that the ability to sustain that punishment only goes so far. It only takes a few more hits to down or force the downing of one of these planes.

What you need to work on is aim. And both of these are large targets that are more easily hit than the smaller less durable planes.

Tip: On the Corsairs, there is a fuel tank in high back area. Shoot for that section from the sides to try and explode or light up the fuel tank.

A good deflection shot will down a Corsair almost as easily as a Zero. Shooting from dead six like too many players do is another thing altogether.

faustnik
01-18-2005, 09:39 AM
The P-47, F6F and F4U where three of the toughest planes in the skies during WWII. The current DM seems very believable to me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Wing roots of the P-47 are vulnerable, aim there with 20mm. The other weak spot is low 6 firing up into the engine, this will kill it even with Mg131.

Perhaps Oleg will improve the explosive effect of Mg151/20 minengeschoss rounds and it will take slightly fewer hits.

NorrisMcWhirter
01-18-2005, 12:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Perhaps Oleg will improve the explosive effect of Mg151/20 minengeschoss rounds and it will take slightly fewer hits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or perhaps, like in pretty much every other patch for a long time now, he won't.

190 was supposed to be quite tough with it's big radial, self sealing tanks and armour but in the game it's far from it...except to say that it's marginally stronger than the 109. Fuel leak bugs, wings off'd easily and dead engines with small numbers of hits being key to the usual 190 demise.

Look on the bright side, though - at least the gunsight doesn't fall off if you sneeze now. Having said that, I think I preferred the gunsight falling off to the ridiculous out of fuel achilles heel.



Cheers,
Norris

horseback
01-18-2005, 12:23 PM
A larger aircraft means that the main structural members are farther apart, so it takes more hits to take out more than one key structure, or you need a tightly bunched group of hits to break off a big piece. As a bonus, the size usually means that those structural members are stronger, and will take more abuse than a smaller and more lightly built aircraft's structural members.

A larger target also means that you tend to start firing sooner (from farther away), but that your hits are going to be more widely distributed across the target, and lose a bit of their kinetic energy, and in some cases, their destructive power.

Thunderbolts and Corsairs were large, heavily built aircraft that usually took a lot of hits before they would go down. Peppering their rears with light MGs from any distance had limited effect unless the pilot or a key control cable was hit. Even 20mm hits had to hit key spots, so the DM may not be as generous as you think.

cheers

horseback

Hydra444
01-18-2005, 01:12 PM
I've never had any problems shooting P-47's down.My rule of thumb is to always aim for the wings on an a/c.I don't find the Thunderbolt to be any easier or harder to shoot down than any other plane.But then again,when you fly the Hurri,you quickly learn to make your shots count as just about everyone can out run ya LOL

JG7_Rall
01-18-2005, 01:58 PM
While the P47 is vulnerable, I can see what the author is saying. The Jug was a tough bird indeed, capable of taking a lot of punishment from other planes and from ground fire. However, some people seem to believe that it should be able to withstand atomic blasts and such. It's still a plane guys - and shouldn't be immune to fire just because it's "heavily armored". It's tough, but a plane can only be armored so much. I think it's a problem with the MG 151, not necessarily the jug, and with an upgraded 20mm (not that I expect it to happen any time soon) the jug should take marginally more hits than other aircraft.

chris455
01-18-2005, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
Try to down P-47 with 20mm cannon, online or offline, count the hits, and after that think, if it really is realistic. no matter where you shoot to down that plane, almost ALWAYS, you need huge amounts of 20mm hits on it, or at Corsair.

once there was one P47 which took some 200 hits from machine gun and some 10(?) hits from 20mm, and it was like wonder those days, cos we can read about it from books. now, every P47 pilot makes the same wonder. Should downgrade the DM toughness of P47 and Sair. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure what you mean by "Sair" (there is no such airplane) but the P-47 DM is fine as is, thank you.
On the other hand, it could use a little toughening up when hit in the engine from dead ahead with rifle caliber MGs- far too fragile in my opinion, compared to R/L.

TX-Zen
01-18-2005, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Shooting from dead six like too many players do is another thing altogether. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree Ice. At the original poster I would say that I think this is not really an issue with the 47 or the Corsair, because the DM calculations of the game have allowed most planes to survive too many hits to the trailing edge surfaces. Sometimes I get the distinct impression that those are the most heavily armored areas of planes in game because its very common to do little or no damage to those areas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif They tend to just keep absorbing fire for some reason.

I think this is primarily because the calculated effects of HE rounds don't really cause as much surface area damage as they probably should, the game still continues to favor AP rounds in many cases. As a general statement accuracy is a bit too high for typical HE rounds compared to higher MV AP rounds, but damage effects are probably too low, the result being that you hit too many times to bring the guy down whereas you should probably miss a little more but do more damage when you hit. Is the net result even? Possibly, but clear hits for light damage are more frustrating than realizing you missed completely and taking better aim.



This kind of gunnery DM has always seemed kind of off in the sim imho.

Blackdog5555
01-18-2005, 06:20 PM
I have no idea what your talking about. LOL. After reading about Rall and his famous stead, the 109F-4. I tried it against the P47 at Ace level 4 v 4, 25% gas for both and was able to kill all 4 Jugs, no problem. (and have Ammo left over.) I tried it at 2000 meters and 10000 meters and the result is the same. The 109 outperforms the 47 at high altitude (32,000ft.) too!! Check your gunnery. You cant really talk about about HE or AP/I effects etc, bla bla without knowing exactly how the DM are designed and how ammo is weighted mathmatically. Jeesh, this is a game based on programs,(pardon my platitude).. (i did get killed once when a jug snuck up on me. The Jug will not out accelleratate a 109 in a dive either. I followed a jug to the deck with ease. You have to ease up when you get passed 850 TAS. Try it yourself. I would bet that your situation is your gunnery. Cheers.

Enofinu
01-18-2005, 07:43 PM
im not talking about gunnery skills, which are 10-25% hits depending if i fly with plane which has wing mounted guns or plane with only nose mounted guns. its just about how many 20mm/30mm hits plane can take, which i find way too high for P47 and Cordair. other planes too are bit too hard to kill. should reduce every plane damage resistance againts cannon fire , with bigger margin on Corsair and P47.

Udidtoo
01-18-2005, 07:55 PM
You may feel your being picked on a bit but you have to understand how many " I shot at it and it didn't explode" threads some of the old hands here have seen.

Pick you angles and your target area with care. Sawn off wings and Pk's bring them all down equally.

Oh and yes, I can read your sign up date quite well, I think this is my 3rd name and sign up now so don't take the you ain't seen what I've seen road,its tiresome.

WUAF_Badsight
01-18-2005, 11:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
I tried it at 2000 meters and 10000 meters and the result is the same. The 109 outperforms the 47 at high altitude (32,000ft.) too!! . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh wow , i just worked it out

you dont even fly FB , WTH are you bringing up other games here for ?

in FB , the single best DFers at high alt are the Ta-152 . . . . . & , drumroll plz, the P-47 Thunderbolt , i mean your also trying to claim that Zeros out-dive Corsairs . . . .

now do plz tell what wack game this is that you keep posting about ?

i mean . . . . you have the single worst opinion of any player of FB i have ever met of US A/C as they are in FB . . . . . & your posts dont even match what happens in-game , i mean are you just trolling or what !

to the original poster , the Thunderbolt had the single best RTB ratio of any A/C in WW2

per sorties , more Thunderbolt pilots made it back home than any other A/C

its supposed to be the single tuffest fighter in FB

BlackShrike
01-18-2005, 11:30 PM
jug was the safest plane in ww2 to fly.

and it could absorb dozens of 20 mil hits on any given day. we all know this.

the funny thing is in head ons if you hit its engine with machine guns it kills the engine every single time and so i say the jug needs toughening up. at least in head ons

ImpStarDuece
01-18-2005, 11:47 PM
The Jug had the lowest loss per sortie ratio of any single engine bird in the ETO. An impressive statistic. It gets even more impressive when you think about it.

What was the primary mission of the Jug when it was fist used in theater? Air superiority. It took the fight to the Luftwaffe at longer ranges than existing single engine birds. It proved itself as a capable medium to very high altitude dogfighter, regardless of the opponent. It brought its pilots home and fought the LW on equal terms.

By mid 44 it was supplanted by the P-51 because of range limitations. It then went into ground support, flying over some of the densest consentrations of AAA in the world. Low level strikes, dive bombing, supply interdiction, bunker bustin ect, ect. Still it brought back pilots more frequently than any other type!

Its a tough bird alright!

WOLFMondo
01-19-2005, 01:58 AM
IMO the P47 is fine enough. The engine is a little weak but the rest of it is immensly tough. Mk108's still make a mess of it after 2-3 hits.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackShrike:
jug was the safest plane in ww2 to fly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Statistcally the Dehavilland Mosquito was the safest combat plane to fly. You've probably got more chance of being hit by a bus than getting shot at or shot down in one of those.

Enofinu
01-19-2005, 06:25 AM
the safest plane from what time it began?
was there as much veteran pilots or planes against P47:s on german side? what was main purpose for P47:s? escort for bombers maybe? and what was main target for German planes? Enemy bombers maybe?

P47 didnt live thru the war like spitfire did etc. look it this way.

And, ive been around since from the Demo of IL-2

Aaron_GT
01-19-2005, 06:49 AM
"Statistcally the Dehavilland Mosquito was the safest combat plane to fly. You've probably got more chance of being hit by a bus than getting shot at or shot down in one of those."

I'd hope not! Whilst the Mosquito loss rate per sortie was low it wasn't THAT low! Actually in medium level daylight raids by B.IVs on Germany it racked up approaching 4% loss rates. This was the highest rate for a Mosqito, but moderate-to-low for 4 engined heavies, day or night, through most of the war.

Eagle_361st
01-19-2005, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
the safest plane from what time it began?
was there as much veteran pilots or planes against P47:s on german side? what was main purpose for P47:s? escort for bombers maybe? and what was main target for German planes? Enemy bombers maybe?

P47 didnt live thru the war like spitfire did etc. look it this way.

And, ive been around since from the Demo of IL-2 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-47's flew against and helped defeat the best the LW had to throw against them. The P-47 did indeed have the lowest loss rate of any WWII fighter period. It is a tough bird that can absorb unreal amounts of damage and return it's pilot home. Those are the facts, so quit whinning and learn to shoot weak points. Like the wing spar, controls and the engine(Although this is not very realistic actually).

HellToupee
01-19-2005, 12:07 PM
didnt spitfires in US service had a lower loss per sortie rate, was just on some doco someone posted.

Also hes just saying the LW thru its best at the bombers.

Mysticpuma2003
01-19-2005, 12:08 PM
Yeah just check out Robert S. Johnson's story to see how tough the jug was. It took 20x 20mm cannon hits plus over 100 rounds of 7.62mm, and he still brought it home.

The '47 was D_am.n tough, and I think the game is realistic.

I too have flown games and been taken out by two cannon rounds,and other times I've been left flying the equivalent of a plane with more perforations than a tea-bag, it had oil on canopy, cracked glass, no gunsight and holes all over including missing one elevator and the rudder......but I landed it!

Game seems fine to me!

Enofinu
01-19-2005, 12:24 PM
Yeah just check out Robert S. Johnson's story to see how tough the jug was. It took 20x 20mm cannon hits plus over 100 rounds of 7.62mm, and he still brought it home.


thats the story what i meant!

some ppl said that he was able to pick some unexploded 20mm ammo inside his plane after he landed, which means they were dud:s or incendiary rounds with fuse which only exploded when intact with fuel.

how many other P47.s were able to come home with such high hit numbers??
does he tell where are the hits in his plane.
i think he was REALLY lucky to make it home with that high hit count. well, now every Jug takes that many hits, easily. unless attacked is really lucky or really has magic touch to aim im certain "sweet" places in Jug.

Mysticpuma2003
01-19-2005, 12:45 PM
Quote "now every Jug takes that many hits, easily"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif and even http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif but mainly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif I can guarantee they really don't. Try flying Warclouds mate against some of the LW boys. P-47's really don't take that many hits.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

VW-IceFire
01-19-2005, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
im not talking about gunnery skills, which are 10-25% hits depending if i fly with plane which has wing mounted guns or plane with only nose mounted guns. its just about how many 20mm/30mm hits plane can take, which i find way too high for P47 and Cordair. other planes too are bit too hard to kill. should reduce every plane damage resistance againts cannon fire , with bigger margin on Corsair and P47. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The difference between the P-47 or Corsair and most other planes is slight and minor. They REALLY don't take that many more hits. They are larger planes...

Seriously, in a map that I setup for online play, I flew a Ki-61 against the F4U-1A Corsair. This was the version with 20mm cannons (MG151/20 to be exact). I was able to shoot down 3 Corsairs worth before I had to return to base with a lack of ammunition. The Ki-61 with 20mm has a relatively small ammo load with a slightly above average hitting power. Turn that around, I flew a Corsair and managed once again to nail 3 Japanese planes (all Ki-61s) before I ran out of .50cals.

If the Corsair were some super plane for taking damage I probably wouldn't have been able to do it. But its not, you shoot it in the right place for less than a second and you have yourself a dead plane.

The P-47 is exactly the same way. Hammer down on one area...don't spread your fire all over the thing. It doesn't operate on hitpoints...what you do is focus your fire...you destroy what you need to and take the plane out. Is it tough? Yes? Does it take longer to down than most other planes? No not really...its a bigger target, easier to hit, but the damage can be spread over surfaces easier because of target size.

Whatever the issue you're having is not P-47 related.

WTE_Galway
01-19-2005, 10:32 PM
are you deflection shooting ?

there is a big difference between 20mm from behind exploding on the surface of a wing and a good deflection shot exploding inside the wing

Blackdog5555
01-20-2005, 12:00 AM
Go check out the uk dedicated server stat web page. you would be surprised at the low hit rate Onliners have. most ppl have a hit % rates of 3% to 5%. 6% hit rate is good. the are alot of people that have 1% hit ratios. Some with 0%. Very surprising. My post merely stated that i have no problem bringing down a P47 offline with a 109F-4. Get within 200 yards with a 10% deflection or less and aim for the wing root. Above or below aim for the engine. Really. very easy. I was going to complain that its too easy to bring down with 20s. But i dont really care.

Ok, now for the benefit of Badsight, i am going to talk about real P47 now. LOL. The "real" P47 had a combat loss ratio of .7% from what I've read. P47 pilots would Fly 25,000ft. - 30,000ft and pounce on the 109 below then speed zoom to altitude, and would not drop below 16,000 ft. ever. NEVER ENGAGE BELOW 15,000 FT. This is ETO.(Hubert Hub Zemke)figher command page 48. That is how they survived. there are reports of "real" P47 coming back to base with tree brances and tops of telephone poles stuck in the wings from ground strikes. ( HARRISON B. TORDOFF P47 PILOT 353RD FIGHTER GROUP)also reports of one P47 pilot coming back to base with 4ft of a wing missing. COME BACK WITH 3 CYLINDER BLOWN OFF. really... This info comes from "Air Command" by Jeffery L. Ethell.

Badsight, im going to talk about the game FB/PF now. and remember, this game is make believe. Just like the tooth fairy, ok.

This game (FB/PF) has a generous FM of th P47 below 10,000 ft IMO but a poor FM above 16,000 ft. IMO. I like to to take the P47 to 32,000 ft in QMB against LW planes. Try it yourself for fun..watch the AI 109s do accellerated loop over the P47 at 32,000ft. Who cares really, nobody flys there.

Badsight, you are like a ******ed neighbor boy who makes a nuisance of himself keeps pulling his pants down to show off his tiny feable weiner. You have already been scolded for making a nuisance of yourself. Now, be a good boy, pull up your pants, brush your teeth, and go back in your closet. and agian you post only cyber insults with no data or info. Sarcasm is not knowledge little boy. LMAO. Cheers.

WUAF_Badsight
01-20-2005, 12:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
I like to to take the P47 to 32,000 ft in QMB against LW planes. Try it yourself for fun..watch the AI 109s do accellerated loop over the P47 at 32,000ft. Who cares really, nobody flys there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ha ha nobody flys there eh ?

as for trying to say the 109 outperforms the Jug at 10k because you seen some AI loop up there . . . . are you serious ?

WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO KIDD ? its AI !

seriously , no plane in FB can out climb the Jug at 10 K , & only the Ta-152 out-speeds it

its the single best DFer at high-alt (Ta152 excepted)

the more you post , the less it seems you know . i doubt you could even fight your way out of a paper bag let alone a DF in FB

seriously , i have not met anyone with as little knowledge about US A/C capabilities in FB as Blackdog5555

no wonder you think that Zeros can out-dive Corsairs

". . already been scolded for . ."
when ?

MO_JOJO
01-20-2005, 12:55 AM
I will try to get some photos on here for you tomorrow. The jug was the preferred plane of many pilots because of its ability to bring them back to base under unbelievable curcumstances. The photos will prove that.

WUAF_Badsight
01-20-2005, 12:56 AM
BTW Blackdog5555 , how about replying without your ******ed character references , or do you feel the need to puff yourself up when you post ?

TX-Zen
01-20-2005, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
Try it yourself for fun..watch the AI 109s do accellerated loop over the P47 at 32,000ft. Who cares really, nobody flys there.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are aware that the AI has a simplified FM? It is capable of doing things that humans cannot, this is understood as a natural limitation of the game engine. The AI has neither the situational awareness nor the precision to fly on the edge of the FM, they tend to be difficult only because they are given a broader performance range, not because they can fly as well as players can.

And please, stop with the personal attacks.

WOLFMondo
01-20-2005, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:

This game (FB/PF) has a generous FM of th P47 below 10,000 ft IMO but a poor FM above 16,000 ft. IMO. I like to to take the P47 to 32,000 ft in QMB against LW planes. Try it yourself for fun..watch the AI 109s do accellerated loop over the P47 at 32,000ft. Who cares really, nobody flys there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Play VS a human, P47 can only be beaten up there by the Ta152 when flying against another real person and even then the weight of the Jug means you can dive away from the Ta152 easily ifyou manage your energy state well enough. And yes, people do fly that high, me and allot of other people on warclouds if the chance arises.