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TGVorster
10-21-2005, 03:53 AM
Hi guys.

On my first cruise I took a trip through Scapa Flow. Stupid I know, but the boss said I wasn't aggresive enough so I took it to hard.

Once there I started running dog legs up and down the bay below the eastern entrance. Here I got a few destroyers.

I found that they a) always travel at high speed b) are bound to see you if you try to intercept them c) because of there speed impossible to set up a decent shot submerged.

So I devised a plan. Something I used in SH 2. I raise my scope and make as much noise as possible. They see the wake and turn into me. I line the boat up so we face each other head on. I flood two tubes hold the scope up. Decrease speed and wait until he is no less than 700m away. Fire 2 torps. The torps still have time to arm and hit and the closing speed is so fast they never miss. Once they are gone hard rudder to either side, flank speed and dive as deep as possible.

Now I have all of the realism boxes check apart from the realistic torpedo aiming and no map updates.

I guess I have been lucky so far and bagged 2 destroyers and two armed tugs/trawlers in this way. I wouldn't try it if there was more than one in the close by. And I also know that they aren't high value targets but the only good escort is dead escort even a potential escort.

Now I read some where that this is a bad way to do bussiness any sugestions on doing it some way else.

TGVorster
10-21-2005, 03:53 AM
Hi guys.

On my first cruise I took a trip through Scapa Flow. Stupid I know, but the boss said I wasn't aggresive enough so I took it to hard.

Once there I started running dog legs up and down the bay below the eastern entrance. Here I got a few destroyers.

I found that they a) always travel at high speed b) are bound to see you if you try to intercept them c) because of there speed impossible to set up a decent shot submerged.

So I devised a plan. Something I used in SH 2. I raise my scope and make as much noise as possible. They see the wake and turn into me. I line the boat up so we face each other head on. I flood two tubes hold the scope up. Decrease speed and wait until he is no less than 700m away. Fire 2 torps. The torps still have time to arm and hit and the closing speed is so fast they never miss. Once they are gone hard rudder to either side, flank speed and dive as deep as possible.

Now I have all of the realism boxes check apart from the realistic torpedo aiming and no map updates.

I guess I have been lucky so far and bagged 2 destroyers and two armed tugs/trawlers in this way. I wouldn't try it if there was more than one in the close by. And I also know that they aren't high value targets but the only good escort is dead escort even a potential escort.

Now I read some where that this is a bad way to do bussiness any sugestions on doing it some way else.

HW3
10-21-2005, 04:09 AM
I usually just leave them alone, if they don't bother me. I save my torps for the merchants or high value warships. Now I did have a C-Class running circles around me, trying to find me, the other night. I had fired my bow tubes at a Revenge he was escorting, (missed, it was at over 4000M and was just a prayer shot with T1's at night) so I waited for him to come around behind me and at just over 700M hit him with a T1 keel shot under the stack. I then left the area before the Hunt 1, that came back to see what happened, could find me.

blastomatic1759
10-21-2005, 04:56 AM
sometimes i leave them alone, but if i happen to see one at night, and i feel like tormenting someone i tend to use the deckgun at about 3500 meters. for some reason he cant see muzzleflashes to well from that distance, and watching those spotlights scan everywhere while im constantly shelling him is pretty humorous.

Maj_Solo
10-21-2005, 05:11 AM
You do it the way you like, you want to bag a DD then you allready found the way.

1) get their attension, stay on surface at flank speed, hopefully be able to fire a shell or two at him if he's deaf blind and dumb. If he's totally under I refuse to chase the DD and try wake him up, I just continue on my way then (worried that the sim knows I've seen him and if I time accelerate now the DD might turn around and I get the death screen).

2) When you reach 4500m get redy to press the DIVE button. When he spots you dive and maintain flank speed, and while he is turning you have a good chance to ID him.

3) Immediately turn you boat straight at the DD. The point where you dived is the last spot he saw you and if you turn now the DD will not drift in the sight while he is searching for you but you two will be running head to head long before he can hear you or ping you. This makes it easier.

4) Final checks, manual targetting on, target distance infinity, target direction 0, the two gyro angle showing exactly '0' '0', if not then set target speed to about 2 knots and play around with the AOB dial so that you get exactly '0' '0', set torpedo to fast, open tube.

5) Try ID DD again and compare with last attempt. When you have the ID set torpedo depth, usually 4m. And measure the distance manually, the ask your sonarman how long he think it is to target and compare his and your results and you know how he is feeling today. If he is feeling good you only need to ask him from now on. If he is feeling bad you have to do all the distance readings.

6) Align your boat perfectly. Just tap the nose a micro degree at the time. With a beginner crew this is more difficult. But with the mouse you say left or right 0.5 - 1.0 degree, and then before they have time to execute that order you order the rudder straight. After awhile you have him perfectly lined up and you keep updating your course. Then you order the tube open.

7) when he is within 700m you open the tube and fire, STAY on course especially if using a slow torpedo, he has perfect hearing and if you turn he will turn. Clemsons are the worst, they seem to be deeper in the front with hull dropping down some and that that is not considered being the draft (I wonder if the sonar might be housed there), cause it has a tendency to push the torpedoes away. And then there is the nimble C-class, even with the fastest of torpedoes I usually hit at the propellers and several times the C-class was quicker than the torp. But all other DDs have no chance. So maybe use electrics for the C-class.

If you miss at least the DD will be busy evading the steam torp and so you keep pedal to the metal to pass him quickly while he is making an arc to the left or right, cause he can not turn on a dime.

Then you need to build up distance to him while he is turning you work with your rudder around 10 degree right or left. If you do it just the right way and the DD is of the right type then you may built up as much as 800 - 1200m before he is on the attack run again. BUT USUALLY you have created 650 - 800m. And the worst case if it is a quick DD 550 - 650m. Anything worse than that manuever and try another escape.

Now you are setup for a shot with the rear tube. You go to manual targetting and set target direction to 180. You are doing this manually so you won't be able to set it to 180.000000000 and this will show on the gyro , just use the same technique again with target speed 2 or 3 knots and play around with AOB so it says '0' '0' straight out of the rear tube. The attack scope has a known bug so the target should be viewed at 183 degrees when you maneuver.

Then fire you torp and STAY on course.

IF, you in the hurry manage to fire the torpedo the wrong way you can drag the DD into the torpedo. It could be you forgot to set the gyro to '0' '0' or the TDC updated and messed with your dials, you see the torp turn slightly when it leaves the tube or your boat was not pointng straight, THEN ....

if you are going towards the destroyer you increase your error some, if the torpedo is going left you try and make your boat drift to the left faster than the torp.

if you are going away from the DD having done a stern tube shot you have to turn to the other side, in any case you turn to the side the torpedo is drifting out on and try lure the DD into it. So even if you make a slight mistake when aiming you have a chance to fix it if you react quickly.

Only one DD atack you at a time, they do not jink when they stear towards you, they don't carpet bomb, or make a run with on DD bombing 100m and the next 50m and the next 20m. And they stop and try avoid each other so if you have practice you can survive at periscope depth fighting multiple destroyers and from time to time you will even get a chance to use the front tubes when one of the DDs out on the rim thinks it is his time to make a run then you can focus on him and send away a bow shot.

Agressive at periscope depth works, being at 25-50m = death IMHO, 100m+ you have a chance to maneuver against them. So if in shallow waters and unable to attack I saty shallow and go up scope down scope and just hope I can get away, wondering why the hell I am in this situation again think I should know better.

thats about where I am now fighting DDs, it might change, but has stayed this way for 5 months and I seen no need to change.

I know there is a lot of 'open tube' instructions above http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dominicrigg
10-21-2005, 06:29 AM
Nice walk through http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I would advise just escaping on the surface before he gets close. Its a waste of torps especially if 2 or more are fired and is also not your target.

Imagine trying to sneak into a bad guys base as a ninja to kill the boss and all his important men, but using all your throwing stars up on the henchmen patrolling the walls instead of just sneaking by them.

One time those guys are going to catch you out too and you will be damaged making the mission impossible (or maybe killed). If you play to start again when you die its a risk too far i think! Especially against a lone destroyer as you described. 2 torps to kill him? Thats about 500-600 tons a torp, shocking!! I dont even use torps on tug boats and they are 1000 tons!

If you find it fun and a nice risk though carry on, as in the end the game is about fun and has freedom, so do you like being a sneaky uboat captain, or a gung ho destroyer captain (in a uboat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Thats the nice thing about the freedom of the game. For all that i did once fire at a destroyer at about 2000 yards when i was bored and low on fuel with no torps fired once though, and got a hit (manual TDC) but i wouldnt normally advise it.

Captain_Jez
10-21-2005, 09:14 AM
Depends on my mood - soemtimes I run and hide, other times (most times) I get them to chase me then blow them apart with a magnetic out of the stern tubes when they get to about 800m away.

JU88
10-21-2005, 01:44 PM
I like to make lots of noise or let them see my scope, they come at me in a straight line most of the time, so when they reach 1000 meters or so I fire an T2 electric (set to magnetic) at there bow. Use a T1 steam and they will dodge it unless they are too close to react, like 500 meters but if you are at peri depth with a DD at 500m and closing, you can probably kiss your *** good bye.

Oh if we're talking late war, then theres nothing like and acoustic fish to show a Lone DD whos boss. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Wyrmo
10-22-2005, 05:30 PM
I was patroling the area outside Gibraltar on one patrol, and I got a bit tired of the many destroyers sweeping the area looking for me... so when night fell, I started to hunt the hunters. That night I sunk 6 destroyers of mixed classes and two flower corvettes. Had the weather been better I'd have surfaced and taken on the three torpedo-boats hunting me as well.

Was kinda nice getting back at those **** destroyers and teaching the Royal Navy that sub-hunting is truly dangerous business http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

blastomatic1759
10-23-2005, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Captain_Jez:
Depends on my mood - soemtimes I run and hide, other times (most times) I get them to chase me then blow them apart with a magnetic out of the stern tubes when they get to about 800m away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Yup im all about this. This is actually my preferd tactic for dispatching destroyers, for some reason ive had to many just bounce off the hull when shooting head on , dont know why, but i dont like the head to head approach, but i did find it better to wait until about 500 meters when using the T1 in daylight, that way he doesnt have time to turn when he sees the bubble trail after youve pooped one out of the stern tube.

TGVorster
10-24-2005, 12:01 AM
It seems the consensus is to take take head on either from bow or stern. I figure that you aren't the only U-boat out there so sinking a few of the hunters makes the life easy for them, oh and it gets the blood racing. Hunting lone merchant men isn't as much fun as taking down things that shoot back.

The one question I do have, related to my statement above, is your sinking of hunters reflected in the rest of the campaign. Say less escorts for convoys because alot of the available escorts are down in Davy Jones's locker or do they just spawn irrespective of the amount of vessels available to the allies at any stage.

Wyrmo
10-24-2005, 03:10 AM
I don't think sinking destroyers have any long-term effect.
However, you can clear away defences and response-teams near enemy ports, leaving them vulnerable.
When I harrased gibraltar, the only remaining opposition in the entire area for the remainder of my patrol was torpedo-boats.

Dominicrigg
10-24-2005, 03:24 AM
The Royal navy has a few thousand destroyers so you are not going to have any impact at all.

Infact you are probably having more of a negative impact. Since sinking a destroyer achieves little, but sinking a 6000 ton + cargo ship cuts off supplies and the means by which future supplies can be brought in. The whole point of the destroyer is to stop you sinking shipping, if you are concentrating on the destroyers at the cost of torpedoes for merchants they are doing their job in a roundabout way!

TGVorster
10-24-2005, 03:36 AM
If you put it that way, it seems to make sense. I remember reading in a The War for Europe that after Dunkirk the RN had an acute shortage of destroyers and that the luftwaffe's interdiction of the shipping in the channel wasn't helping the situation much. I figured that such a situation could be created if enough destroyers where interdicted and sunk or damaged. But in te light of your revelation then go for the tonnage.

Dominicrigg
10-24-2005, 03:48 AM
Ignore me im confused lol, i meant a few hundred!!

They were always making more though.

Im sure you are right, i suppose it could be argued if all the uboats set out to destroy escorts only could this have caused a problem?

I think that it would have left more cargo get through initially though, and im sure more ships would be made. Tough one!

Wyrmo
10-24-2005, 03:55 AM
Actually, in a realistic point of view, sinking destroyers would have multiple impacts.

For starters, a destroyer needs a fairly large and well trained crew while a merchant can operate quite effectivly with a skeleton-crew somewhere between 10-30 men, not varying much with the size of the ship.

If destroyers are actively targeted, it would have a drastic effect on morale. Would you like to hunt after a submarine if you knew the chance of survival was less than 50%?

Killing off destroyers, even if they are vast will create gaps in the enemy's defences.
If I strike a convoy and take out its escorts, chances are (if I report its position) that other submarines could arrive and have its way with the now unguarded convoy.

Destroyers are much more expensive and take longer to build than cargoships.

Destroyers have more roles than to hunt submarines. Gaps in destroyer coverage will in time affect the screening-abilities of surface fleets, making capital ships more vulnerable to air-raids and enemy surface ships.


Well, that's what I can think of for now.

TGVorster
10-24-2005, 04:05 AM
About my thinking as well. It is similiar to dealing with air defences through SEAD. In the beginning you take down the deadly and irreplasible air defences so that you can get to the high value targets without risks later.

Baldricks_Mate
10-24-2005, 04:32 AM
Wyrmo,I'm with you!

I have sunk and will continue to sink many destroyers when the tactical situation calls for it. I only hide when discretion is the better part of valour.

My first plan when being chased by a DD is to sink it. Then it's mate too, when he gets too curious.

I too love the smell of diesel in the morning, with coffee, while watching DD masts sticking out of the shallow water.

Los!

TGVorster
10-24-2005, 04:44 AM
I am with you on that Baldricks_Mate. U53 will continue to target the pesky escorts if they are escorting or not. It may not look good on in the final tonnage but maybe it will help in the long run.

Torpedo run true, Torpedo run straight!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wyrmo
10-24-2005, 10:21 AM
This is what happens to them when they can't take a hint http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://draconiz.herno.net/SH3/Good%20Destroyer.jpg


Also, the larger destroyers have about the same tonnage as a small cargo ship or a coastal merchant.

It also looks nice to have a high warship-count http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kaleun1961
10-24-2005, 11:11 AM
Unfortunately this game conveys the impression that sinking destroyers was easier than it really was. We must keep in mind that what we are seeing in this game is the game developer's version, limited by the limitations of computer game artificial intelligence. Real destroyers did not behave as they do in this game. Having a thinking human in control meant that it was never easy to predict what a destroyer would do.

When making an attack run, they did not always just make a beeline for the sub. They were aware that they could also be a target and so they would often vary their course to a submerged contact. Believe me, most historical sub captains when faced with an approaching destroyer were heading for the basement as quickly as they could, for they knew that the greatest prospect for survival was not in staying near the surface and being offensive, but in heading for the deep and being defensive.

WilhelmSchulz.-
10-24-2005, 08:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
Unfortunately this game conveys the impression that sinking destroyers was easier than it really was. We must keep in mind that what we are seeing in this game is the game developer's version, limited by the limitations of computer game artificial intelligence. Real destroyers did not behave as they do in this game. Having a thinking human in control meant that it was never easy to predict what a destroyer would do.

When making an attack run, they did not always just make a beeline for the sub. They were aware that they could also be a target and so they would often vary their course to a submerged contact. Believe me, most historical sub captains when faced with an approaching destroyer were heading for the basement as quickly as they could, for they knew that the greatest prospect for survival was not in staying near the surface and being offensive, but in heading for the deep and being defensive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank You. But some times your just tempted. And in my 1st patrol a Flower was zig-zaging down to me.

Maj_Solo
10-24-2005, 11:49 PM
And that is probably why they probably would fire a full spread of 4 torps if they had a DD coming at them. So if attacked by a DD a VII boat would loose 25% of it's payload.

Baldricks_Mate
10-25-2005, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wyrmo:
This is what happens to them when they can't take a hint http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It also looks nice to have a high warship-count http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------------------------------------

Yee Ha! Top Shot!

------------------------------------------------

A lot of my destroyer kills have not been in passing or making a bee-line. They were in full attack mode, sometimes mulitple escorts. However after they drop, they circle and slow down (to listen?). It is at that point they are vunerable. Their path can be extrapolated. Extrapolation means a likely intersection point. By often going full reverse with a couse change (an opposite direction/movement to the AI's expectation?) at the critical moment I can put my boat in position for a snap shot at 300/400m with a T1.

If I dive, I invariable get smacked severely and it gets worse as the war goes on...

Its all about the paradigm you use?

Andrej_XXV
10-26-2005, 05:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wyrmo:
This is what happens to them when they can't take a hint http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://draconiz.herno.net/SH3/Good%20Destroyer.jpg


Also, the larger destroyers have about the same tonnage as a small cargo ship or a coastal merchant.

It also looks nice to have a high warship-count http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what happens when you spend to much time on TDC http://www.mobisux.com/album/data/500/28786SH3Img.jpg

http://www.mobisux.com/album/data/500/28786SH3Img1.jpg
Destroyers bullet on the way


http://www.mobisux.com/album/data/500/28786SH3Img3.jpg

This is the second U-boat that I lost due to a collision with destroyer :S

Wyrmo
10-26-2005, 06:37 AM
Ouch.
I try avoiding beeing caught on the surface by destroyers.
I've only had very few sucessfull surface-encounters with destroyers.

One was a gunnery-duel where I got lucky and knocked out his front turret in my first shot , leaving him very vulnerable for continous pounding.
The other was a wild chase in the middle of a convoy where I managed to hide most of the time behind a tanker and a c2 whilst taking pot-shots. It wasn't a destroyer, but a Flower-corvette... but still http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
They even managed to soften up the tanker for me by shooting at me while I was next to it

Dominicrigg
10-26-2005, 07:45 AM
All this talk of destroyer killing got me wondering.

I was having a nightmare of a patrol as Topp and couldnt find even a lone ship to kill, then i got repositioned to France mid patrol and decided to go through the Chunnel since i had next to zero fuel.

Well as i got near the english chunnel i spotted a destroyer at long range, about 4km +.

I stayed on the surface and set about Id'ing it. It had two stacks by the smoke, seemed to have a squarish command deck so i set a C class as type. This got distance at 4500 metres, and got his speed and direction guestimated.

Then fired and went to p depth.

The sea was very calm, it was a steam torp and at that range i didnt fancy my chances much but i watched the torp from outside.

I didnt hold much hope at that range as a hit is pretty **** unrealistic but the torp was set to full speed and i still had my fingers and toes crossed.


This was the result:
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/7623/nearly1mk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

**** if i didnt almost hit the blighter!!

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/3550/nearly27hg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

As it was so calm he saw the torp trail and turned, i feel quite confident if he had not seen it i may have got a hit!

Well i dropped scope, down to 20 metres and listened on soundman post, he seemed to be coming closer but moving from left to right infront of me, so i was sure he didnt know my exact location. Back up to p depth and another look, he was now about 1400 metres away.

Here is a look at the distance.
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/5817/longshot0ik.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I set the tdc again, he seemed faster now, and was about 1400 metres, then fired and...

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6933/skills0wp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I was quite impressed!!

This is not a bad hit with a steamer at that range on manual TDC, but i wouldnt risk it again as to me 2 torps was a waste.

But it was fun, and due to all your imput here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It turned out he was a V or W type destroyer, so i had misidentified him, maybe this helped mess up the first shot as they do have different mast heights but i love that, the fun of manual shooting!