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Armhunter
03-01-2006, 01:53 PM
I was watching a show on the History Channel and they mentioned a book for Pilots they called their Bible on air to air combat..
They said the name of it and I dont remember.. I want to get it...
can anyone help?

thanks..

Armhunter
03-01-2006, 01:53 PM
I was watching a show on the History Channel and they mentioned a book for Pilots they called their Bible on air to air combat..
They said the name of it and I dont remember.. I want to get it...
can anyone help?

thanks..

rnzoli
03-01-2006, 02:11 PM
Probably this:
Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering (Hardcover) by Robert L. Shaw.

ytareh
03-01-2006, 02:17 PM
'Think you probably mean Robert Shaw -Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering or something similar.I had it and sold it.Very very heavy,dry read.Not a hint of a colour diagram ...all plain black and white line diagrams....only parts that caught my attention at all were quotes (lots) of aces and info on relative lethality of cannons/mgs-oh and nice dust jacket painting of Hornet Vs Mig
Of course I realise I sound like a total noob and this is a reference standard text for fighter pilots but as a casual combat sim pilot I reckon its as relevant as a volume on spark plug servicing/maintenance in Yak fighters!
More detailed review by forum member Dieg777 at airwarfare.com.Also dont pay a fortune for this ....goes for silly money on amazon yet v cheap on Ebay where i got mine.

Dr2GunzOD
03-01-2006, 02:28 PM
I bought mine off amazon used a few months ago for $18 or so.

Ive found it to very good. It gives the info that a sim pilot needs. It is in a text book format, which most complain about, but I found it to be fine.

A free alternative may be found at airwarefare.com/guides "In Pursuit - A pilots guide to online combat".
lots of overlap with shaw's book. written by a sim pilot for sim pilots.

Doug_Thompson
03-01-2006, 02:33 PM
Re: Shaw's book.

It is tough, but worthwhile. It reads much more like a textbook than a "thrilling tale," but that's what's needed. You don't have to understand all of it to get valuable lessons, either. It's also comprehensive, going from open sights to guided missiles, from dogfight tricks to plotting interceptions.

Shaw says in his introduction that he wrote it after carefully reading all he could on air combat, listening carfully to his instructors, then going out on mock dogfights and getting hammered. All the instructors would say was, "Well, you're new. You're supposed to get hammered." He wanted something more.

Highly recommended.

Waldo.Pepper
03-01-2006, 02:41 PM
I have the Shaw book and thought that the following (very poorly remembered) story was in it.

"I was chasing a 190 and then I saw it happen. The pilot just stopped thinking and flew straight on. You could see his brain turn to mush and he just stopped thinking and flew straight into my fire and his grave"

... or something like that.

If that is in the Shaw book what page? If not where am I remembering that from?

Armhunter
03-01-2006, 03:12 PM
Thanks for everyones help!!
I will have to check that book out..

but from what I remember, there was another book written by a WWII pilot(wwi? i could be wrong), they stated it was still considered the BIBLE for all pilots even the jet pilots for Dog Fighting... They said he used Math to determin what a plane would and could do at certain times and came up with a perfect way to attack... something like that... I wish I would have taped the episode...

I dont like Jets too much.. They are interesting and I would love to fly in one.. but shooting a missle from miles away takes the fun out of the combat...

Doug_Thompson
03-01-2006, 03:13 PM
@Waldo

Something like that is in that book. I'll check it out tonight if nobody beats me to it.

Akronnick
03-01-2006, 03:28 PM
You may be thinking of Boelke's Dicta, written by German WWI ace Oswald Boelke. It's not a book, but a set of eight rules to help a pilot survive air combat.

here they are:

Boelke's Dicta

1. Try to secure advantages before attacking.-If possible, try to keep the sun behind you.
2. Always carry through an attack when you have-started it.

3. Fire only at close range and only when your opponent is-properly in your sights.

4. Always keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses.

5. In any form of attack it is essential to assail your opponent from behind.

6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it.

7. When over the enemy's lines, never forget your own line of retreat.

8. Attack on principle in groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for one opponent.

More info about Boelke (http://usfighter.tripod.com/ww1ace.htm)

Viper2005_
03-01-2006, 03:57 PM
Commander "Sharkey" Ward, DSC, AFC, RN has 8 rules too:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Rule 1.
The first rule for the fighter pilot is to know his aircraft and weapon system backwards. He must be able to fly his aircraft to its physical manoeuvrability limits; in a manner which bests benefits his task for bringing his weapon system to bear on the enemy in the quickest possible time.

Rule 2.
The second rule develops naturally out of the first. He must know the weaknesses of his weapon system and the limitations of his aircraft (where, for example, within its flight envelope, it performs badly relative to any opposition).

Rule 3.
The third and most difficult 'rule' in practice is always to apply th better points of his weapon system and aircraft performance to a particular fight; that is, he must adopt the fighter tactics which best suit his own aircraft needs.

Rule 4.
The fourth rule is to know in detail the capabilities of the opposing fighter (and if possible of the opposing fighter pilot) and to avoid allowing the fight to develop in a manner which suits the opposition. For example, if your jet fights better at low level (or worse at high level) than the opposition then you must bring the fight down in altitude to your own best environment.

Rule 5.
The fifth rule is to approach every fight in a totally aggressive manner but without ignoring Rules 1 to 4. Under-confidence and a half-hearted approach never won any battle, either in the air or on the ground. The pilot's motto should always be 'You can if you think you can!'.

Rule 6.
The sixth rule is continuously to predict where it is physically possible for the opposing fighter to move to next and to fly your own aircraft to take advantage of that predicted information. All aircraft have to obey the laws of physics and aerodynamics and therefore the flight-path options of the opposition fighter will be limited at any particular moment in a fight. But he can still do a variety of different things with his jet from most positions in the sky, and the sixth rule demands that you must be continuously aware of all such options and know how to take advantage of them or couter them.

Rule 7.
If Rules 1 to 6 are obeyed then compliance with Rule 7 should ensure that the fight will be won. Rule 7 is to sight the opposition before he sights you and then never lose sight of him until you have achieved the kill.

Rule 8.
There is always the possiblility of a further enemy fighter that you haven't seen. Rule 8 is to keep looking for the unseen 'bogey' and, if there is one, apply Rules 1 to 7 to him as well as to the guy you are already fighting. (The 'unseen bogey' may appear on the scene at any time, not just during a fight, and that is why pilots fly in 'battle' pairs. 'Battle' formation may be defined as aircraft flying side by side and far enough from each other to be able to keep a close watch on their partner's vulnerable '6 o'clock' area.)

Obedience of these rules represents the basic minimum discipline that a fighter pilot must obey in combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taken from "SEA HARRIER OVER THE FALKLANDS" by Commander "Sharkey" Ward, DSC, AFC, RN. ISBN 0 85052 305 2

rnzoli
03-02-2006, 02:11 AM
@ the OP:

Perhaps it's time to highlight something. Do not think that any book or set of rules will make you a better sim pilot alone. I am saying this, because I am slightly fed up with and irritated by a suffocating amount of advice on how to become a (sim) ace.

The truth is that only you can make yourself any better.

The books and rules will not help you to make the correct decisions straight away. They will be however, quite good help to analyze your incorrect decisions, and understand what else should have been done. Taking that into account, you can improve your decisions gradually.

Armhunter
03-02-2006, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The books and rules will not help you to make the correct decisions straight away. They will be however, quite good help to analyze your incorrect decisions, and understand what else should have been done. Taking that into account, you can improve your decisions gradually. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basics are #1 and that is what you get out of studying...(books) The next you need is experience.. They go together... I think it is very important to study before just jumping into something.. without basics, you will limit your full capabilities..

Blutarski2004
03-02-2006, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Armhunter:
Thanks for everyones help!!
I will have to check that book out..

but from what I remember, there was another book written by a WWII pilot(wwi? i could be wrong), they stated it was still considered the BIBLE for all pilots even the jet pilots for Dog Fighting... They said he used Math to determin what a plane would and could do at certain times and came up with a perfect way to attack... something like that... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



..... You might be thinking of John Boyd. He developed the energy/maneuverability method of analysis of aircraft performance, which has now become the standard evaluation technique within the industry.

When he was chief of the Fighter Tactics School at Nellis AFB in the early 60s, he had a standing $100 bet to any incoming pilot that he could reverse a 6 o'clock tailing position within 40 seconds. Never lost. They were flying F100s then and Boyd had discovered that the the F100 had remarkably docile stall characteristics even at ridiculously large AoA's. He would suddenly pull the nose of his plane up very aggressively, scrub off a huge amount of speed, let the pursuing pilot shoot by him, then put the nose back down and wall the throttle.

His post fighter pilot career was even more noteworthy. During his time at the Pentagon he led the fight for the development and adoption of both the F16 and the A10 - pretty much over the violent opposition of the USAF brass. From there he went on to study strategy and tactics, wrote voluminously on the topics, and developed the "OODA Loop" theory which was successfully used in Desert Storm.

Boyd was a true genius and a fascinating character.

Doug_Thompson
03-06-2006, 09:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
I have the Shaw book and thought that the following (very poorly remembered) story was in it.

"I was chasing a 190 and then I saw it happen. The pilot just stopped thinking and flew straight on. You could see his brain turn to mush and he just stopped thinking and flew straight into my fire and his grave"

... or something like that.

If that is in the Shaw book what page? If not where am I remembering that from? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would have sworn that quote was in Shaw's book, but now I can't find it. I'll try again, unless you've found it already.

Waldo.Pepper
03-06-2006, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would have sworn that quote was in Shaw's book, but now I can't find it. I'll try again, unless you've found it already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope couldn't find it yet. I spent an embarrassingly long time flipping through the Shaw book looking for it again.

I was also going to mention that another good introductory book on BFM is a little paperback I have by Mike Spick called The Ace Factor. which goes from WW1 to today (well ten years ago I guess).

Blottogg
03-06-2006, 02:26 PM
The jacket cover painting is of a Hornet downing a Tu-22M BACKFIRE B, and yeah, I put the hyphen in "anal-retentive".

I like Shaw's book for a couple of reasons. First, it diagrams maneuvers that don't always translate well into prose, especially to folks who've never actually flown the maneuvers. Second, it takes a fairly dispassionate, analytical look at air combat. It's not the last word on the subject, and definitely not the page-turner some anecdotal accounts are, but it's the best introduction I've come across in the civilian world.

Shaw is a Navy guy, so some of the terms he uses are a little different than the Air Force equivalents (section and division instead of element and flight, for example), but overall a handy book.