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View Full Version : Why won't the bombers act like bombers?



Catandra
11-30-2005, 04:48 PM
Okay, I'm in a fighter attacking a bunch of bombers and the dang things try and engage me in a dogfight. What's up with that? This would never have happened in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

In reality, they should bunch together or at least scatter in a panic, but certainly not chase me around like a fighter. How can I get them to act like the bombers they should be?

Catandra
11-30-2005, 04:48 PM
Okay, I'm in a fighter attacking a bunch of bombers and the dang things try and engage me in a dogfight. What's up with that? This would never have happened in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

In reality, they should bunch together or at least scatter in a panic, but certainly not chase me around like a fighter. How can I get them to act like the bombers they should be?

Zeus-cat
11-30-2005, 05:33 PM
Some planes are fighter-bombers and will drop bombs and engage you if attacked. Dedicated bombers (B-17, He-111, Betty, etc) should act like bombers and fly straight and level and use defensive fire to keep you away, not dogfight with you.

The only exception to this that I can think of is if you are playing a user-made mission and the mission builder put an attack waypoint in that tells the plane to attack your aircraft. It will probably try to do that no matter what type it is.

Zeus-cat

lairdperkins
11-30-2005, 06:14 PM
I think he's playing online and someone keeps trying to line up the 75mm howitzer in the B-25G for air-to-air operations! =P

LEXX_Luthor
11-30-2005, 06:20 PM
Mission Design issue (or campaign generator issue). Bombers following a Ground Attack waypoint will NOT drop their bombs, but will continue flying in formation. This applies to fighters carrying bombs. I was suprised to find Fw-190 carrying bombs and following GA waypoint stayed in formation, waiting to be picked off. It works. Give them escort.

Catandra
11-30-2005, 06:50 PM
Well, in this particular situation, I was flying a Ki-84 with two others. We attacked 8 B-25s (in the quick mission mode)and they started tangling with us like they were Mustangs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I just think that that is an absurd aspect of Pacific Fighters.

leitmotiv
11-30-2005, 07:06 PM
Catandra is absolutely right. Using the Quick Mission Builder, some bombers will assume finger fours (even if set up for a vic of three), drop bombs, and attack fighters with extreme aggression---while this is wondrously surprising, after the first time it loses its charm. Primary offenders I have experienced: all versions of Avengers and Dauntlesses. I wish Sturmoviks would attack my 109s. Whenever I'm assaulted by 109s in an IL-2, I go for them, sometimes with gratifying results.

Kuna15
11-30-2005, 07:34 PM
I used to order Bleinheims to attack the fighters in some missions once when we encounter enemy fighters, they really give them nasty surprise http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Anyway in game pure bomber will never dogfight, there are some exceptions like B-25, or Boston -- that bombers have excellent forward firepower so they can deal nasty blow to pursuing fighters...

Saunders1953
11-30-2005, 09:25 PM
Catandra and Lietmotiv are right. In QMB, bombers will act like fighters. Most likely because the QMB must not set GA waypoints. But in make-yer-owns, like LEXX says, set bombers and fighter-bombers a GA WP and they will behave.

VW-IceFire
11-30-2005, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Catandra:
Well, in this particular situation, I was flying a Ki-84 with two others. We attacked 8 B-25s (in the quick mission mode)and they started tangling with us like they were Mustangs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I just think that that is an absurd aspect of Pacific Fighters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which bombers?

Some attack bombers would, if forced to, engage fighters with varrying degrees of success.

Online I'll mix it up with fighters in a B-25J or a A-20G...not that I choose to and I'd rather run and let the turret gunners try and deal with them but sometimes in the right situation you'll try and give them a scare.

This is not necessarily a bug...I view it as a feature. QMB is not setup to be a catch all kind of system...if your are a FMB guy then you can control (more or less) how these bombers behave and thats where it counts.

Again, which bombers? Try a group of B-17's or B-24's...they will not dogfight.

FPSOLKOR
11-30-2005, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Catandra:
Okay, I'm in a fighter attacking a bunch of bombers and the dang things try and engage me in a dogfight. What's up with that? This would never have happened in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

In reality, they should bunch together or at least scatter in a panic, but certainly not chase me around like a fighter. How can I get them to act like the bombers they should be? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He-he. Does Talgat Belgedinov ring a bell for you? this fellow managed to kill 7! 109 in a double-seater il. Several occasions when pe-2 pilots killed fighters. It depends on pilots ability to fight, not on tthe machine. BTW, read tikhomirovs memos on this matter...

leitmotiv
11-30-2005, 11:36 PM
I deeply enjoy turning on 109s in any flavor of Sturmovik, and have had success. I used QMB to set up a meeting engagement between Il-2s and Hs129s with the 30mm belly pack. It is one of the most interesting slug-outs I've experienced. 129s Swarm single Il-2s---it can get very ugly with six 129s coming from all directions like bees. The 129 is not too resistant to the Il-2's guns---tend to blow to pieces.

actionhank1786
12-01-2005, 12:30 AM
i can safely say that some planes can handle it.
I've shot down a Zero that got too foolish and slowed down in front of my .50's, and in another mission, a flight of 109s bounced my flight of Il-2s from above, since we were low, they had to level off after their dives, and needless to say, the 109s aren't too strong when faced with 37mm canon fire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Catandra
12-01-2005, 12:36 AM
Alright, granted...there were unusual instances in which bomber pilots used their planes in unorthodox ways....

Still, I don't believe that there is even one instance in the history of the world in which an entire formation decided to abandon the normal bomber tactics and dogfight the fighters attacking them.

FPSOLKOR
12-01-2005, 12:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Catandra:
Alright, granted...there were unusual instances in which bomber pilots used their planes in unorthodox ways....

Still, I don't believe that there is even one instance in the history of the world in which an entire formation decided to abandon the normal bomber tactics and dogfight the fighters attacking them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not ssure about fighter-hunting, but it was quite common for il-2 pilots to hunt for stukas, andd i read about 30 to 40 cases when formations from 4 to regiment (32 in full strenght) performed this...

polak5
12-01-2005, 12:56 AM
like hank said, if they dumb enough to glide infront of ur fifties then let them burn i say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

leitmotiv
12-01-2005, 01:06 AM
I can't either, Catandra, but there was the classic case of the HIRYU Val squadron which fought its way through the YORKTOWN F4F-4 CAP at Midway using the superlative maneuverability of the Val---and proceeded to execute a textbook attack on the carrier. The chagrined Cat pilots reported they were dogfighting with bomb-carrying Vals. Design a scenario for this action, and you will find the PAC FIGHTERS D3A1 is up to the challenge. I thought Oleg had done his homework when I saw you could refight this action with PAC FIGHTERS. On the other hand, the famous action of Gus Widhelm's HORNET Dauntlesses at Santa Cruz was another story. Swarmed by A6M2s before they were close to their tip-over point above SHOKAKU, the two squadrons flew a tight formation hacking their way through the Zeros. Then they creamed SHO so badly she nearly sank. If you have the gunpower, better to fight wing-to-wing. The Vals were such pros they could compensate for weak defensive fire to the rear with fighter tactics.

alert_1
12-01-2005, 01:46 AM
IL2 wa not maneuvrable at all, it was heavy attacker and in no way it would tangled with Me109! Possible only in OlegWorld - but if *someone* go tin front of VYa23 accidentaly, that's another case...

p1ngu666
12-01-2005, 04:02 AM
il2 has similer wingloading to 109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

it has a huge wing, and it could take on fighters, not equaly but given the chance http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
12-01-2005, 04:06 AM
oh its because "bombers" with forward firing guns are classed as fighterbombers. big issue in mission design cos u cant have b25's level bomb then leave http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

jds1978
12-01-2005, 04:15 AM
the only time i've ever seen medium or heavy bombers try to mix it up like a fighter is when i'd forgotten to add a target for the bombers in QMB. i watched speechless as 12 Mitchell bombers emptied their bombloads over the water and began to pull serious G's against Ki61's.

make sure you have something listed in the Target box of QMB

Covino
12-01-2005, 08:55 AM
yes, as others have said, bombers will attack in the QMB where their targets are the enemy planes, your planes, if you haven't given them a ground target.

if you ever meet up with a bomber group in a campaign or anything, they stay in tight formation, its deadly!

msalama
12-01-2005, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">it has a huge wing, and it could take on fighters, not equaly but given the chance http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I've shot down a couple of Biffers on-line in a Sturmovik. But yeah, the key phrase here most definitely is "given the change" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rattler68
12-01-2005, 01:40 PM
Given the chance, any pilot would take a shot at an enemy a/c that passed in front of it. However, any book I've read about 2 engine f-b's, like "Terror in the Starboard Seat", leads me to believe that any Mossie pilot would much rather use his high performance to disengage from a dogfight rather than enter one. The one exception to this would be a P-38, but this was designed from the outset as a long-range fighter, not strictly a f-b.

p1ngu666
12-01-2005, 09:17 PM
well with fb mossies, its always about hittin the target and getting out, fast.

with say a b25, your slow, u got no chance of outruning them...

HotelBushranger
12-02-2005, 01:38 AM
Ah, I remember the days of FB when Pe-8's would weave around my 109's *reminisces*

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/HotelBushranger/dgpe8.jpg

EPP_Gibbs
12-03-2005, 08:06 PM
I've made a little FMB mission or two. One models the Luftflotte 2 attack on Kenley Sector station on 18th August 1940. That works pretty well, using JU88's in place of Do-17's for the low level attack by 9th Staffel KG76, and for the abortive dive bombing attack. Use of high level HE111's is not correct, they were Do-17's again but I didn't want to use 88's for everything! No problems with bomb dropping and general bomber behaviour.

I made another general BoB style mission; an escorted bomber intercept, playable as Spit Vb, Hurricane 1, 109E, or HE111. Here I set it up so that the Spitfire squadron arrives first with 2 sections taking on the 109 escort from altitude, and the third wading into the bombers. Very shortly after, the Hurricane squadron arrives Co-alt with the bombers to take them on. It all goes ok except that at least one of the Hurri sections ignores the bombers and takes on the 109's. This is contrary to how I set up the targeting. (green circle on a stick). The only thing I can think of is that the LW formation is encountered possibly BEFORE the Hurri's reach the waypoint where the target was set, so they take on the nearest enemy...the 109. Could that be it?

It plays out with the surviving bombers, usually about 3/4 of them with some of those damaged, arriving over the Spitfire's airfield and bombing it quite nicely before turning home. At that point they are hit by a fresh Spit squadron, scrambled later than the initial pair. The 109's end up peeled away from the bombers, engaged with the original Spitfires leaving the bombers unprotected, which pretty much happened a lot of the time.

Yes, I know the Vb isn't historically right for 1940, but it's as near as we can get if we want Spits. I'll probably add another 109 squadron to cover the Bomber's run home.

I just need to sort out the targeting malfunction....unless Oleg has built in some 'pilots ignoring orders' code!