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hueywolf123
02-01-2007, 02:29 AM
I was sent to the AM sector to patrol grid 53, a ridiculous ask considering I'm in a type IID, but anyhow.
On my way I spot a light ship, but he takes four fish. I only did this as practice, but got carried away wanting an easy score.
With only two fish left, I then ran into a large cargo. I put one into his bow, the next I sent under his keel, midships.
He was still going, so I surfaced, got to almost point blank and used my AA gun to start a few fires.
Out of AA ammo, I got cranky and rammed him, midships on the other side.
We sustained only minor damage, but within 2hrs real time, circling him, he finally sank.
I was just off the English east coast, a silly place to be doing these things, but made it home unscathed.
Don't fall for those lightships, they're only good for the return if you have nothing else

hueywolf123
02-01-2007, 02:29 AM
I was sent to the AM sector to patrol grid 53, a ridiculous ask considering I'm in a type IID, but anyhow.
On my way I spot a light ship, but he takes four fish. I only did this as practice, but got carried away wanting an easy score.
With only two fish left, I then ran into a large cargo. I put one into his bow, the next I sent under his keel, midships.
He was still going, so I surfaced, got to almost point blank and used my AA gun to start a few fires.
Out of AA ammo, I got cranky and rammed him, midships on the other side.
We sustained only minor damage, but within 2hrs real time, circling him, he finally sank.
I was just off the English east coast, a silly place to be doing these things, but made it home unscathed.
Don't fall for those lightships, they're only good for the return if you have nothing else

AO1_AW_SW_USN
02-01-2007, 08:17 PM
That's the problem, you're in a Type II Class U-boat.

Forget the midget sub stuff with the small tonnage scores and get yourself an Type IX Class. Then you could blast away an entire convoy and still have more than a half a tank of fuel left!

hueywolf123
02-01-2007, 08:19 PM
Desparate to get enough points to afford one, very hard to do when I don't have enough range to reach my patrol grid

Kaleun1961
02-01-2007, 08:33 PM
Sounds like you need to use SH3 Commander; it allows you to select your own patrol zone. Usually I go with the one assigned by the game, but if it gives me a ridiculous patrol zone, such as your situation, then I assign myself a more realistic one. Same thing if it assigns me the same one several times in a row.

hueywolf123
02-01-2007, 08:35 PM
I am, but haven't installed the GWX corrections to it. I'll try that tonight, see if I can have a big boat

klcarroll
02-01-2007, 08:46 PM
A TypeIX boat??? ..................Moooooo!

A TypeIID is just the ticket for inshore work and port raiding!

It will out-turn and out-dive your over-sized sausage! .....and speaking of size, the TypeII is very nearly half the size of the TypeIX, making it hard to spot on the surface, and tough for Tommy to locate with his Hi-Fi set, when it's submerged!

I can't tell you the number of times I've rode up and over sub nets, (on my way into an English port) with only minimal damage. (The Kort Nozzles do a great job of protecting the screws from fouling!) In a similar situation, a TypeIX driver would have no alternative but to call the Auto Club!

The lack of a heavy deck gun isn't that big a deal if you "tweak" the performance of the 20mm flaks up to real-world levels: ......I have had patrols where I have added five small merchants to "the bag", using the 20mms. You just pull up to within 300 meters, and saw them apart! (......and BTW, a rapid fire 20mm is the perfect tool for teaching "Merchant Tommies" not to play with guns!) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Sure, if you're into Trans-Atlantic trips, the TypeIX is OK (I guess.), but if you want to go right to where Tommy lives, you want a TypeII!

Knight165
02-01-2007, 09:25 PM
I hear you with the ridiculous patrol zones for the Type II.
I got sent to an AN patrol sector...I spent most of my time just on fuel maintanance.....until I expended all my fish and sent out a patrol report about a third of the way there. Thankfully they had me return to port!

They gave me medals and promotions for that patrol....how important is it to hand these out? What would the guidelines be?...Can you really tell who deserves it?

M.K.
Knight165

AO1_AW_SW_USN
02-01-2007, 09:47 PM
@ klcarroll

That's just like comparing a flyweight boxer to a heavyweight. Sure, the Type II's are quick, nimble, has a few punches and can dance around their opponents with ease. But nine times out of ten, they lack that K.O. punch to "finish the job", and unfortunately war isn't decided by a Split Decision!

If you fight the IX Class, yeah you may move around a bit faster and dodge a little better than him. But, if you slip up and he connects that right hook, then you're in trouble because he has 23 other punches that can follow the first one! Not to mention that he's also a hard bastard to drop to the canvas!

BTW, most guys prefer to have an over-sized sausage, rather than a small wiener. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif God, I love these sub vs sub debates!

Here's my not-so-famous quote:
"It's not hard to drive an IX class U-boat, you just have to anticipate things a little sooner than usual."

klcarroll
02-02-2007, 10:48 AM
@ AO1_AW_SW_USN

OK, ........I know from your previous posts that you have first hand submarine experience, which I can't claim; ......But I think I can hold my own on the basics, so let's go!

Your "Flyweight vs Heavyweight" analogy isn't really accurate. The last time I looked, I was carrying the same torpedoes you do! .....So what we really have in the TypeIID is an agile "Flyweight" with the same right hook as the "Heavyweight" fighter! The fact that you have 20 more "right hooks" is really of no consequence, if I connect with my first one!

But since the TypeII and the TypeIX boats weren't designed to fight each other, let's move on to what they were intended for.

The TypeIIs were designed as "Costal Boats": .....This means that they had to deal with shallow water, coastal weather conditions, and almost constant surface and air patrols: .....Under these conditions, a small visual profile and rapid dive time are far more important than another 15 or 20 torpedoes in the rack.

If you study the English costal waters and the North Sea, you will quickly note that in most of that area, a TypeIX would be a liability, not an asset! The surface and air patrols prevent you from spending a lot of time on the surface, thereby negating the theoretical surface speed advantage of the larger boat. Your size means aircraft can see you from a much greater distance, and your slow dive times mean that you're still within 10 meters of the surface when they arrive to deliver your airmail!

In that same area, the average water depth limits you to the same working depths as the TypeII: .....The only problem is you displace over three times as much as a TypeII, and you have no chance of hiding! (Heck! ....when a DD passes over you, all the steel in your hull probably deflects all of the compasses on board!)

Now in a TypeIID, you enjoy a small visual (and later, radar) profile, and a 25 second dive time. Not only that, but I can turn in less than 60% of the distance your TypeIX would require: ......So when an aircraft prompts an "ALARM", not only am I submerged by the time he gets to my location, but I am heading in an entirely different direction than the one he last noted.

Now if we're talking about evading DDs, then the first thing I have to mention is that there is a HUGE difference between a 360 ton target and a 1200 ton target when you're trying to find it with ASDIC: ....Secondly, my rate of turn gives me an excellent chance of sticking a torpedo into that "Tin Can" as he trolls around looking for me!

.....And as far as weather conditions go; ...they can be described in one word; "FOG": ..........and I say "Bring It On!". Fog is my friend! A good heavy fog is my license to commit surface mayhem, secure in the knowledge that I will always see them before they see me. (I have had Town Class destroyers pass me so closely that I could count smokestacks in the gloom; ....and they never had a clue!)

The limitations a TypeII works under are not as bad as one might think: ....A total of six torpedoes isn't a crippling deal when the run back to base is only two or three days! A TypeII can shoot everything it's got in a day, go back to base, and be back on patrol in less than 20 days. This translates into 18 torpedoes delivered to Tommy during the same time your TypeIX will deliver 20-23 on one of it's Trans-Atlantic cruises!

Finally, let's not forget the Bean-Counters! It has been correctly observed that the cost of a submarine tends to be directly proportional to it's size: .....This means the The BDU can have THREE TypeIID boats for the cost of one TypeIX! If your objective is to control the approaches to England, then you have to admit that three TypeIIs will do a better job than one TypeIX! .....An important side issue is that a TypeII can be crewed by 22 men, while the TypeIX requires 45-50: ...Not an insignificant point during wartime, when there are never enough trained personnel.

Now don't get me wrong: ....I'm not a small boat fanatic! I simply believe in using the correct tool for the job. I know I am never going to sail to the Caribbean in my TypeIID: .......That's what the TypeIXs were built for. (My appeals elsewhere for the Narwhal Class boats to be included in SHIV shows that I do appreciate the virtues of "Big Boats" too!)

But, if the job is to CONTROL the coastal waters around the U.K.; .......well then, .....don't bring a pickup truck to a motorcycle race!

.......Oh yes, .......concerning your comment: "BTW, most guys prefer to have an over-sized sausage, rather than a small wiener.": ........Well, ....Wise men have know for centuries that it's not the size, ...it's how you use it!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ottoramsaig
02-02-2007, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Knight165:
I hear you with the ridiculous patrol zones for the Type II.
I got sent to an AN patrol sector...I spent most of my time just on fuel maintanance.....until I expended all my fish and sent out a patrol report about a third of the way there. Thankfully they had me return to port!Did you actually get a return to port message? send me a PM on it.

They gave me medals and promotions for that patrol....how important is it to hand these out? What would the guidelines be?...Can you really tell who deserves it?

M.K.
Knight165 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kaleun1961
02-02-2007, 01:45 PM
The smaller subs have their uses, but they were never intended to be war-winners. The tonnage war could only realistically be won in the Atlantic convoy lanes, and only the bigger boats had the endurance and torpedo loadout to make the trip worthwhile. Have fun raiding English ports in the game, but at the same time realize that this wasn't a factor in the real war. Prien's feat at Scapa Flow was an exceptional one; not many more like that took place.

The real world chances of finding enemy shipping to attack are increased by using a bigger sub. You cover more miles and cover them more quickly in a bigger boat, greatly increasing your odds of sighting enemy shipping. As the war progressed, it became increasingly dangerous to sail near the English shores; the aerial patrols were a greater threat there than in the farther reaches of the convoy lanes.

But in the final analysis, SH3 is a game which can be enjoyed in any number of ways. Whatever floats your boat... Enjoy and don't worry what others think.

klcarroll
02-02-2007, 02:39 PM
Did the Germans focus on "Open Ocean" boats because they were truely the most efficient overall, or was it because they entered the war with one tenth the number of boats they wanted (and needed), and had to make a choice on how to use limited production resources??

Note that as the war moved into it's last years, the Germans were working on small coastal boats like the TypeXXIII, as hard as they were working on the TypeXXIs.

It appears to me that there was a need for Coastal Boats all along, and only production limitations prevented extensive deployment.

Concerning the TypeXXIIIs, it is interesting to note how enthusiastic the production effort was (61 boats commissioned between April 1944 and the end of the war.) considering the state German war plants were in during that time: .....Obviously they felt Coastal Boats were a priority.

It's also interesting to note that the old TypeIID outperformed the TypeXXIII in almost all respects, except for a two or three man smaller crew, and a slightly deeper dive depth. (Which really didn't matter in the waters they were being deployed in.)

Kaleun1961
02-02-2007, 05:27 PM
Your first paragraph makes a lot of sense. With the limited number of slipways for assembling U-boats, it would indeed seem more logical that if you are going to lay a hull, it may as well be for a bigger boat. A good war winning strategy would see the production of both types; smaller boats for the near seas and larger boats with the range to take the tonnage war throughout the world's oceans. Britain would be importing a lot of goods from the US and Canada and oil from the Caribbean. Long range boats would allow the Germans to prey upon those vast areas, the same strategy they employed with their commerce raiders. The biggest U-boats were intended to take the war to the exotic locales, such as off the coasts of southern Africa and the Indian Ocean. Because of the time required to traverse such distances, the two most important features would be cruising range and as many torpedoes as possible, due to the difficulties of resupply. The Type VII's were the ideal balance between range, offensive power and maneuverability for the convoy battles. The heavier boats were not suited to convoy battles, due to their slower diving times and cumbersome handling.

Because most of Britain's wartime shipping would be concentrated to the west of the British isles, larger boats were required in greater quantities than the smaller coastal boats. Germany's naval planners could not have foreseen having French bases for their subs, hence their emphasis on producing greater numbers of larger boats. These had the range to operate from German bases out into the Atlantic, should Germany be involved in a war with Britain and not having any other bases than those in Germany proper. Getting the French bases was a boon to the U-boats, which was soon reflected in the greater efficiency of their patrols. Given the war fighting conditions that Germany may have had to fight in a future war with Britain, their pre-war planners had to concentrate on the big, longer ranged boats.

AO1_AW_SW_USN
02-02-2007, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
.......Oh yes, .......concerning your comment: "BTW, most guys prefer to have an over-sized sausage, rather than a small wiener.": ........Well, ....Wise men have know for centuries that it's not the size, ...it's how you use it!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wise men may known and have said that, but the ladies say and think differently. Which of the two really matters to you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thinking on the basis of realistic tactics and operations, you are 100% correct. But this game doesn't really portray realism without a little bit of help (from a mod or two). As much as individuals try and try to play this game with hyper-realism in mind, there will always be something in this game that breaks the suspension of disbelief. In regards to this game, as long as I can still (inaccurately) slip into a port and raid it with an IXC, then your point is moot. Historically, port raiding with an IX Class U-boat would have been a suicide mission, but with SH3 it is possible. But hey, thanks for the outstanding and very informative post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BTW: I was on a Nimitz Class Aircraft Carrier... and not a sinkable tubular coffin made of steel. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

klcarroll
02-03-2007, 02:56 PM
@ KALEUN1961

Quote:

"Germany's naval planners could not have foreseen having French bases for their subs, ......"

You inspire me to do some additional research: ....I have to believe that the capture of the Biscay Bay French Ports should have been one of the strategic goals of the German Planners, but there doesn't seem to be any immediately available data on what the actual thinking was at the time. (Geez, ...I hate trying to translate German documents!)



@ AO1_AW_SW_USN;

You said;

"Wise men may known and have said that, but the ladies say and think differently. Which of the two really matters to you?"

Well, ....It reminds me of one of my first "hot dates": .....The young lady in question pointed, laughed, and asked; "Who do you think you're going to satisfy with THAT!!???"

My reply was; "Me!"

*****************************************

.............Anyway, ..........Back on topic!

What you say is true: .....The game lets you get away with things that would have been unrealistic in the real world.

BUT!!! ......With a few appropriate mods, and the correct mental attitude, SH3 can give you insights into aspects of the WWII Naval War that you can get no other way. (....Particularly true, since we are now separated by a temporal distance of some 60 years, in addition to the geographic and cultural separations.

SH3: ....We may complain and "pick nits"; .....but it's still the best Sim there has ever been!!