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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:36 PM
Sounds like an interesting maneuver

***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:36 PM
Sounds like an interesting maneuver

***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:43 PM
This sounds like a task that only aces are qualified to handle.

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:45 PM
In all seriousness, what is a Lufbery Circle anyway?

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:50 PM
It's defensive tactic where multiple aircrafts fly in a circle to protect each others tail.

So, to answers The Dude: You need to multiply. But judging by the quasi-split personality nature of your sig, that shouldn't be a problem! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Just beware of the Nihilists!

cheers/slush

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Message Edited on 06/16/0302:55PM by Slush69

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:52 PM
I think to become an ace you need to put it on a slider.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:53 PM
It was created in WW1 and I think it basically just consisted of multiple friendlies flying in a circle spaced out so they could watch and clear each others tail.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:56 PM
I can think of a contemporary equivalent, but unfortunately delineating it would quite possibly earn me a ban or at least a temporary suspension of privileges.

Suffice to say that it has been largely discredited as a form of defensive manoeuvre since it fails to take account of the third dimension.


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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:57 PM
I know it has to do with turn-fighting, which happens a lot in furballs, but don't know how to put it to use to get that kill and then escape.

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:02 PM
You are not going to become "better ace" or even better pilot trying this purely defensive maneuver.

From http://nwosquad.iwarp.com/Tactics.html
"Defensive (Lufbery) Circle
A formation in which several aircraft circle, each guarding the tail of the aircraft ahead of it. An enemy aircraft entering the circle to attack one plane will come under fire from the next aircraft back."

Generally you surrender all initiative while using this maneuver. Enemy can try to brake it using normal BnZ, doing high speed attack from inside the circle etc.

Hans-Joachim Marseille made the reputation for himself knocking down Allied planes flying in this formation. Generally only used if your planes much slower then enemy planes (so you cannot escape) but more maneuverable (so you can still try to protect you buddies).


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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:03 PM
Short version: You can't.

Long version: Grab some friends. Log into a server. Fly around in a great circle the lot of you, covering each others tail - and then hope that some stupid enemy pilot will join that nice, big circle. Shoot him/her down.

cheers/slush



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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:04 PM
We should then invent the Luftberry Sphere/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:29 PM
I got dibs on it!

The El_Duderino Sphere!

I like it.

How many planes dya think it would take?

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:32 PM
http://www.acepilots.com/wwi/us_lufbery.html

You can't.

It was used as a defensive formation.

Although, it's sometimes useful in sims when you are being vultched, or when you are being attacked from above.

Alot of pilots in sims also get into the T & B habit which ends up with both planes chasing each other tails close to the deck. This is sometimes called a Lufbery, but this tactic was considered foolhardy in modern aircraft(WW2) in reality.

You can read more about realistic air combat tactics, and those that work here;

http://www.njahof.org/jager/tactics.html





Message Edited on 06/16/0309:43AM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:39 PM
Bogun seems to have to most descriptive response but why post another squad's tactic page as a source?

Lufberry Circles are not really considered a tactic, it seems as though it is more of a condition.

I always understood the definition to be when similar performing aircraft engage in a turn fight that results in a stale mate.

However, there is merit in two more of the same side aircrft using this move to provide cover for each other but it means they are condemned to remain in this circle until the enemy leaves or they are relieved.

It seems to me that the best defense in aerial combat is to have a solid offense.

Otherwise you are just fodder.

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:43 PM
on a historic note, seems there was a czech pilot, Frantisek I think, who attacked Lufberrys flying in the opposite direction of the circle.

I'm a crappy pilot, but one hell of a shot.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:48 PM
Also called "spanish circle", the soviet pilots used this tactics a lot during the Finnish winter war accordring to Ilmari Juutilainens accounts.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:57 PM
The__Dude wrote:
- Sounds like an interesting maneuver
---------------------

The finns thought it was interresting too when they saw red pilots do it. unfortionatly the finns wasnt alarmed by these manouvers.they BnZ in turns and ...that was it.....
--------------------

Guess there is no harm trying it. but u have to do a small
circle when u are alone (LoL)

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:57 PM
USAFHelos wrote:

"It seems to me that the best defense in aerial combat is to have a solid offense.

Otherwise you are just fodder."

---------

That's the bottom line.

You need to think a step or two ahead of the enemy.

Never give up the initiative or advantage.

Once you've made the decision to attack, maximum aggression helps, and don't stop until he's down.

A good pilot will take advantage of your hesitation.

Always attack from top to bottom(highest enemy aircraft first), and back to front.

Always strive to keep your wing plane above that of the enemy.

If possessing greater energy/climb rate, always strive to make the enemy follow you(to deplete his energy), but as a rule never turn your back to the enemy.

If attacking an enemy that's above, pursue until he turns on you, then barrel roll dive until he overshoots while watching his direction and follow. Try to bleed his energy while increasing yours.

If possible only attack from above.

When not actively fighting, you should be climbing.

Always try to take off facing away from the action and land facing the action.

Don't become so focused on the target you lose track of other aircraft in the vicinity.

If you can't destroy the enemy or overshoot, shoot for his wings to disable him, and climb away for another pass.

If the enemies on your tail barrel roll, cut throttle, deploy flaps, sissor, do anything to cause him to overshoot then nail him when he flies by or try to get some distance and climb. Try to stay out of this situation and off the deck.






Message Edited on 06/16/0310:32AM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 05:31 PM
Can you post your sources James?

We're a reference happily family in this line of work.

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 05:43 PM
it was indeed a defensive formation to fly, however it was proven very ineffective when some German Crack shot ace, Joachimes Marseille or someone like that, snuck in behind the rear most plane, shot it down and simply took its place in the formation i think he got 3 - 4 more of them before one guy realised 'Hey thats a 109 on my left wing tip' and they broke and he fecked off home.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 05:56 PM
James_Gang wrote:
- That's the bottom line.
-
- (add bla bla bla)

This is for you:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/cyrus/images/newbie5.jpg


Now, I am officially informing you that you are a NEWBIE! Now, be a man and behave as such.

If you talk too much we might get the impression that you're not only a newbie, but also a troll and an asshat. Please refrain from posting information every single one of us already knows and attain yourself to the topic at hand:

"Lufberry Circles"

If you have nothing to add, please refrain from posting.

Thank you for your attention, now, go about your business please.


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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 05:59 PM
Whats up to you Nero?


Someone peed in your coffee-cup?

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 06:06 PM
No Leonid... just keeping trolling at bay here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Was I too harsh? Anyways, now that you mentioned coffee, I'm gonna get one...

Oh, and I wouldn't get myself into a lufberry circle no siree!


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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 06:08 PM
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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 06:56 PM
USAFHelos wrote:

"Can you post your sources James?

We're a reference happily family in this line of work."

---------

The source is yours truly. Based upon my experience and personal training from a variety of sources.

And, the result of many hours behind the simulated stick in a variety of WW2 flight sims.

Many of these hours as a lone pilot. Some of course as a C.O. or member of a team or squad with a wingman.

Actually, I can think of a few I left out. But I can't reveal all of my secrets.

For instance;

'Always keep the enemy guessing.'

'Having a good wingman close by is worth more than having an overinflated ego.'

And, one I sometimes fail to follow on this board, but always in the game;

'Do not draw unnecessary attention to yourself.'




Message Edited on 06/16/0302:08PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 09:41 PM
James_Gang wrote:
- The source is yours truly. Based upon my experience
- and personal training from a variety of sources.
-
- And, the result of many hours behind the simulated
- stick in a variety of WW2 flight sims.
-


Very interesting tactics James, but I think my dear friend Robert Shaw would be biting his lip on a few of them.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #1: You need to think a step or two ahead of the enemy.

Never give up the initiative.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #2:Never give up the initiative or advantage.

You should try to think a step or two ahead of the enemy.

These two say the same, and I agree with both.



James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #3:Once you've made the decision to attack, maximum aggression helps, and don't stop until he's down.

Unless his wingman is planted firmly on your six right?

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #4:A good pilot will take advantage of your hesitation.

A good pilot would never hesitate.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #5:Always attack from top to bottom(highest enemy aircraft first), and back to front.

Attacking an enemy who is higher is brave, attacking more than one is foolish.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #6:Always strive to keep your wing plane above that of the enemy.

Sooner or later you will have to lower your wing plane (whatever that is) to but the piper on the enemy. It helps for aiming.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #7:If possessing greater energy/climb rate, always strive to make the enemy follow you(to deplete his energy), but as a rule never turn your back to the enemy.

In order for you to get your enemy to follow you but never turn your back him, you will have to fly tail first.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #8:If attacking an enemy that's above, pursue until he turns on you, then barrel roll dive until he overshoots while watching his direction and follow. Try to bleed his energy while increasing yours.

See tactic below this one

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #9:If possible only attack from above.

Never try to engage an enemy that has more E than you. If you barrel roll he will shoot your belly. A good pilot will not lose E as easy as some would assume.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #10:When not actively fighting, you should be climbing.

What if you are actively landing? What if there is a cloud deck. What if there are schwarms of enemy flying high over head and haven't noticed you yet?

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #11:Always try to take off facing away from the action and land facing the action.

DO NOT perform this maneuver in real life. In real life always take off and land into the wind like they teach you at flight school.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #12http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifon't become so focused on the target you lose track of other aircraft in the vicinity.

Unless you are following this tactic posted from above:

Once you've made the decision to attack, maximum aggression helps, and don't stop until he's down.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #13:If you can't destroy the enemy or overshoot, shoot for his wings to disable him, and climb away for another pass.

If you had time to decide that you missed or the enemy didn't go boom then keep shooting. Trying to aim for another part of the aircraft probably won't work.

James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #14:If the enemies on your tail barrel roll, cut throttle, deploy flaps, sissor, do anything to cause him to overshoot then nail him when he flies by or try to get some distance and climb. Try to stay out of this situation and off the deck.

Giving up your E by cutting throttles or deploying flaps will be just what the good pilot hopes you do.

My conjecture contrived from:
Fighter Combat - Robert Shaw
1985


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Message Edited on 06/16/03 04:42PM by USAFHelos

Message Edited on 06/16/0304:45PM by USAFHelos

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 09:47 PM
And we have another RBJ fan coming out of the closet gents...


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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 09:59 PM
that tactic worked well mainly with planes that had a tail gunner... 210 , 410, sturmavick, stuka, during the battle of brittan it was found to be enefective because enemy pilots would take deflection shots while booming a zooming so they would either get heavy damnage or shot down.

before then deflection shooting was no used very much so the formation worked ok.. but after that the counter spread and made it usless...

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 10:05 PM
What`s an ace?

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 11:16 PM
For every rule, there's always an exception.

And no rule always works all of the time.

Thanks for your input Helo's.



Message Edited on 06/16/0306:27PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 11:23 PM
I'm sorry... Helos ain't my mistress as you all know I'm not gay. (that's the end of the joke part of this post)

But I never saw him state anything you said he did. If I were you James, I'd read more books about WWII air combat. Specially the ones with pilot's accounts of their personal experiences.

Moreover I'd like to suggest to you that you train more often online. What you and Helos said here is no suprise for anyone who's taken the time to read a little on the subject.

I'm surprised this topic even came up as, I think that at least 95% of this simulator's players are WWII Aviation History fans.


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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 11:56 PM
NeroMoura wrote:

"Moreover I'd like to suggest to you that you train more often online. What you and Helos said here is no suprise for anyone who's taken the time to read a little on the subject."

-----------

You must have missed something along the way Nero.

You're not me.

And you don't know me by this callsign either.

Just remember rule #1 which is alot like USMC bayonet training and what all combat veterans know well;

'Hitting and destroying the target/enemy before he does the same to you is all that really matters.'

And it takes precedence over all the other rules. Especially those of the deskbound, or the wantabe.




Message Edited on 06/16/0307:01PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:01 AM
James_Gang wrote:
- You must have missed something.
-
- You're not me.
-
- And you don't know me either.
-
- Just remember rule #1 which is alot like USMC
- bayonet training and what all combat veterans know
- well;
-
- Hitting and destroying the target/enemy is all that
- really matters.
-
- And it takes precedence over all the other rules.


Well that's another obvious masterpiece.

So... do you really know anything ANY of us don't know?

I mean anything at all. I'll even let you post some nice campfire recipes if you wish to, as I'm sure Oleg will model campfires anytime now, maybe in the next add-on.

Perhaps some boy scouts mottos too... that'd be fun /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:05 AM
NeroMoura wrote:

"Well that's another obvious masterpiece.

So... do you really know anything ANY of us don't know?

I mean anything at all. I'll even let you post some nice campfire recipes if you wish to, as I'm sure Oleg will model campfires anytime now, maybe in the next add-on.

Perhaps some boy scouts mottos too... that'd be fun"

----------

I never said I knew anything you don't. Is this your imagination?

I took the time to put that stuff down for pilots that may not know, like the topic starter. Any pilot asking about how to become an ace using the lufbery needs some pointers from somebody.

I didn't mean to make you feel inadequate. I'll try to consider your feelings next time I post/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:08 AM
James_Gang wrote:
- Any pilot
- asking about how to become an ace using the lufbery
- needs some pointers from somebody.
-
- I didn't mean to make you feel inadequate. I'll try
- to consider your feelings next time I post

Don't worry, you just made my point, thank you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:20 AM
NeroMoura wrote:

"Don't worry, you just made my point, thank you"

--------------------

Oh, ok.

Heck, if I could fly as well as I cause misunderstandings on this forum, I'd never get shot down.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:20 AM
WarGod5475 wrote:
- that tactic worked well mainly with planes that had
- a tail gunner... 210 , 410, sturmavick, stuka,
- during the battle of brittan it was found to be
- enefective because enemy pilots would take
- deflection shots while booming a zooming so they
- would either get heavy damnage or shot down.
-
- before then deflection shooting was no used very
- much so the formation worked ok.. but after that the
- counter spread and made it usless...
-
-


Yep .. was used a lot by IL2 formations right through the war, though presumably as gunsights improved it became less and less effective as it became possible to get good deflection shots and avoid risking being hit by the tail gunners.

I have also seen it referred to as a "wagon train" defence somewhere.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:23 AM
James_Gang wrote:
-
- Oh, ok.
-
- Heck, if I could fly as well as I cause
- misunderstandings on this forum, I'd never get shot
- down.
-
-

You assume too much. You didn't cause a misunderstanding, you caused a complete understanding.

That's just it.

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:40 AM
NeroMoura wrote:

"You assume too much. You didn't cause a misunderstanding, you caused a complete understanding."

-----------

Well if I caused a complete 'understanding', what were we doing before?

Misunderstanding perhaps?

And if not misunderstanding the content itself, perhaps misunderstanding the reason, direction and the context in which it was presented.

Oh never mind/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif .

Damn, I need to lay off the coffee.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:40 AM
James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #14:If the enemies on your tail barrel roll, cut throttle, deploy flaps, sissor, do anything to cause him to overshoot then nail him when he flies by or try to get some distance and climb. Try to stay out of this situation and off the deck.



Can I point out that in modern jet combat you would be dead if you pulled this little trick.

When in Cyprus back in the 90's we were fortunate to have a few of the ex- Sov Mig 29's offering training to the Sea Harriers prior to Bosnia. Jag Det was there too although we only got 3 days with the MiG's.

Pulse Doppler radar caused us so many problems. We couldn't evade the damn thing. We even thought by keeping one aircraft moving away as bait and one moving in with the shift we could pop down and shove a Lima down it's pipe. Not so the damn MiG's had us the whole time.

In the end we hit 60 feet above the Med applied full throttle, dumped fuel to lessen our weight. The sea clutter and ECM masked us till the MiG had to go close for IR lock. All we could do at that point was run. Hitting the deck was the safest way to avoid IR lock as he could no longer track us against the sea clutter. We were in mud-movers I add but the same conditions applies to fighters too.

There is no way I would let a jet get that close to overshoot.

Even in WW2 I would still hit the deck. Safest place down low. the target has the advantage as he is flying. The hunter is trying to fly and get a kill.


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Per Ardua Ad Astra

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:44 AM
James_Gang wrote:
-
- Well if I caused a complete 'understanding', what
- were we doing before?
-
- Misunderstanding perhaps?
-
- And if not misunderstanding the content itself,
- perhaps misunderstanding the reason, direction and
- the context in which it was presented.
-
- Oh never mind/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif .
-
- Damn, I need to lay off the coffee.
-

No dude... you made things clear in your "I-thought-it-would-be" your last post.

And don't blame the coffee for not getting laid /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 01:01 AM
HamishUK wrote:

"James_Gang wrote:
Tactic #14:If the enemies on your tail barrel roll, cut throttle, deploy flaps, sissor, do anything to cause him to overshoot then nail him when he flies by or try to get some distance and climb. Try to stay out of this situation and off the deck.



Can I point out that in modern jet combat you would be dead if you pulled this little trick.

When in Cyprus back in the 90's we were fortunate to have a few of the ex- Sov Mig 29's offering training to the Sea Harriers prior to Bosnia. Jag Det was there too although we only got 3 days with the MiG's.

Pulse Doppler radar caused us so many problems. We couldn't evade the damn thing. We even thought by keeping one aircraft moving away as bait and one moving in with the shift we could pop down and shove a Lima down it's pipe. Not so the damn MiG's had us the whole time.

In the end we hit 60 feet above the Med applied full throttle, dumped fuel to lessen our weight. The sea clutter and ECM masked us till the MiG had to go close for IR lock. All we could do at that point was run. Hitting the deck was the safest way to avoid IR lock as he could no longer track us against the sea clutter. We were in mud-movers I add but the same conditions applies to fighters too.

There is no way I would let a jet get that close to overshoot.

Even in WW2 I would still hit the deck. Safest place down low. the target has the advantage as he is flying. The hunter is trying to fly and get a kill."

-------------

Yes, of course. The best course of action is to always avoid any disadvantaged situation alltogether. That's part of the problem with sims, no consequences.

Thanks, I really appreciate your experience and sharing that. What was your ride? Tornado?

Your experience of course is far beyond any elementary knowledge of air combat I have gleaned in flying WW2 sims.

I understand modern jets, radar, IR and radar homing ordinance are in many ways require a completely different set of tactics and skills.

That's one reason I steer clear of modern jet sims. Lacking experience and modern air combat training, I'm afraid I lack the time to devote to learning these procedures and the sheer number of systems required.

I bet you guys are the cats meow in modern jet sims. I'll bet you and your associates are anxious to see 'lock on' released.







Message Edited on 06/16/0308:03PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 01:04 AM
NeroMoura wrote:

"And don't blame the coffee for not getting laid"

-----------

I'm married/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 01:08 AM
James_Gang wrote:

--------------
-
- Yes, of course. The best course of action is to
- always avoid any disadvantaged situation
- alltogether. That's part of the problem with sims,
- no consequences.
-
- Thanks, I really appreciate your experience and
- sharing that. What was your ride? Tornado?
-
- Your experience of course is far beyond any
- elementary knowledge of air combat I have gleaned in
- flying WW2 sims.
-
- I understand modern jets, radar, IR and radar homing
- ordinance are in many ways require a completely
- different set of tactics and skills.
-
- That's one reason I steer clear of modern jet sims.
- Lacking experience and modern air combat training,
- I'm afraid I lack the time to devote to learning
- these procedures and the sheer number of systems
- required.
-
- I bet you guys are the cats meow in modern jet sims.
- I'll bet you and your associates are anxious to see
- 'lock on' released.


No unfortunately not as hi-tech, just the Jaguar.

No lock-on I doubt will impress me. The graphics may but the FM will be waaaay out. Most of a modern fighters flight envelope are classified. I would be very surprised if the F-15 flies like it should.

As a fun game maybe but then there are too many parameters in radar performance, ECM, Off boresight missile locks and all manner of oddities.

Still will be fun just as a point and shoot.


http://af-helos.freewebspace.com/BP_Ham%20Sig.gif



Per Ardua Ad Astra

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 01:18 AM
HamishUK wrote:

"No unfortunately not as hi-tech, just the Jaguar.

No lock-on I doubt will impress me. The graphics may but the FM will be waaaay out. Most of a modern fighters flight envelope are classified. I would be very surprised if the F-15 flies like it should.

As a fun game maybe but then there are too many parameters in radar performance, ECM, Off boresight missile locks and all manner of oddities.

Still will be fun just as a point and shoot."

------------


Thanks for the modesty. That helps alot.

As usual I was very impressed watching your countries operations in Basra. Something about having a little finesse. Something us yanks have always had a little more trouble with along with aircraft and friendly troop recognition.

Uh oh, I can hear the footsteps coming. This topic may start heating up.

Perhaps I'll see you over there at Lock On, I'd be very interested in a few pointers.

I think I can do the point and shoot part/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .




Message Edited on 06/16/0309:09PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:45 PM
Dude,

Here is Andy Bush's thought about the Lufberry:

http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000359

I'm particularly interested in the sceanrio where both planes (prop-pitch planes) are the same (ie same performance characteristics) and are involved in a nose-to-tail turning fight.

Second Question: Is the best option in this situation to implement high and low yo-yo's or simply implement best sustained turn performance?


Andy's reply:

Good question! And one that I've seen asked over and over again. Here is the simple answer.

When flying at max performance in a Lufbery you cannot use a yo-yo to improve your situation.

Why? Because you are already max performing your plane. You just don't have any more G to use to fly out-of-plane and gain anything. Sure...you can roll to reorient your lift vector, but when you do this, you are going lag...and when that happens the bandit gains separation...and you gain nothing but a new nose position that does not improve your offensive position. Trust me...this is a common misconception. You cannot yo-yo out of a Lufbery into a better position when you and the bandit are max performing!

So...what is the "best" option in a Lufbery?

Don't get into one!


Tailspin
Tailspin's Tales
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:48 PM
JG, you sure get into a lot of arguments.

***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***