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View Full Version : So, is N.Y. Harbor defended at all post Dec 7th 1941...???



Charlie901
04-07-2005, 11:10 PM
Would kinda kill the immersion in the Campaign if you could sight-see the Statue of Liberty on the surface from your U-boat.....?

I doubt the U.S. would have left the harbor wide open to a U-boat attack?

Charlie901
04-07-2005, 11:10 PM
Would kinda kill the immersion in the Campaign if you could sight-see the Statue of Liberty on the surface from your U-boat.....?

I doubt the U.S. would have left the harbor wide open to a U-boat attack?

reumatiib
04-07-2005, 11:13 PM
Actually the USA did just that. The First German U-boats to reach the US coast after Dec. 7th were stunned to find that the US cities still had all there lights one, little to zero defense, and what there was ill trained and prepared, and ships were still sailing around by themselves as if it was peace time. And things did not really improve form some months or more. For the Germans it was like a holiday.

Charlie901
04-07-2005, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by reumatiib:
Actually the USA did just that. The First German U-boats to reach the US coast after Dec. 7th were stunned to find that the US cities still had all there lights one, little to zero defense, and what there was ill trained and prepared, and ships were still sailing around by themselves as if it was peace time. And things did not really improve form some months or more. For the Germans it was like a holiday. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



LOL..... so I can cruise the surface in N.Y. harbor, thumbing my nose at the Yanks?


Seriously though, does this improve (defense) as the war goes on in the current campaign?

CRULL
04-07-2005, 11:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie901:
Would kinda kill the immersion in the Campaign if you could sight-see the Statue of Liberty on the surface from your U-boat.....?

I doubt the U.S. would have left the harbor wide open to a U-boat attack? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the US was worried all that much because it was a long trip for a U-boat. Even though they did want to attack the US, it was probably easier for them to work on convoys far out in the ocean.

I did a trip to the US coast and ran into some PTBoats which seemed to be realistic. I also had planes attack me in NY.

I live near Point Judith, Rhode Island and we have a sunken UBoat around 7 Miles from shore.

It was sunk by destroyers, after it sank a US warship. It was the only U-Boat sunk close to the US shore. Divers use it for practice, but it is a very dangerous wreck. There have been some deaths from diving it.

http://www.wreckhunter.net/DataPages/u853-dat.htm

hauitsme
04-08-2005, 12:11 AM
War Diary of the Eastern Sea Frontier
Dec 1941- Sept 1943
(Selected Excerpts Pertaining to the Defenses of the Southern New York Harbor)

(Source: National Archives and Records Agency)
Introduction:
The Army and the Navy developed sophisticated anti-submarine detection systems to combat the German U-Boats that were attacking shipping close to the shore and inside America's harbors on the East coast from January of 1941 to July of 1942.

The Army maintained many fire control base end stations that were used as lookout posts. Patrol planes of the Navy (as well as Navy blimps), Army, Coast Guard, and the volunteers of the Civil Air Patrol were assisted by sightings from Pan Am Clippers and other airliners spotting submarines, sinking ships, oil slicks, or liferafts. Coast Guard Stations and ships, as well as fishing and merchant vessels, also made similar reports.

Magnetic detection loops were laid along the bottom of the New York Harbor in the Ambrose Channel to detect submarines that could not be detected by the newly developed radar system. The SCR-582 harbor surveillance radar was used to detect targets at night and in poor visiblity conditions. The SCR-296 fire control radar was used to determine precise bearings and ranges for gun batteries. B-17 aircraft from Mitchel Field were equipped with radar sensitive to detect the periscope of a partially submerged U-Boat. Other aircraft were equipped with MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detection) equipment that not only detected submarines, but often detected the wrecks of ships that were previously sunk by German submarines.

Radio Direction Finding (RDF) sets were used by the Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and the FCC to triangulate on the Enigma encrypted radio signals sent by the German U-Boats. RDF stations were established at Jones Beach, LI, Sea Isle City, NJ, Montauk, LI, as well as other locations along the shore. These RDF stations (and other radio stations) not only intercepted German radio traffic, but also the SSS signals (send help, ship torpedoed) from ships that had become the victims of the U-Boats.

Underwater listening equipment called "hydrophones" were connected to shore based stations. They were also dropped from blimps and ships to listen for submarines. Sonobouys were later installed to act as remote listen stations. The type JN-1 sound ranging equipment was later used by ships to determine the distance to the targets detected.

Contact minefields were laid in the New York Harbor. These minefields were set to the "contact mode" when a loop or hydrophone detected a possible submarine. The mines would then indicate to Army personnel stationed in a Mine Casemate bunker when they were struck by a ship. The mines could then be detonated by the Mine Casemate to destroy the enemy ship.

When a loop or hydrophone detected a possible enemy submarine in the harbor, a submarine net located at the Narrows between Fort Wadsworth in Staten Island and Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn was closed. A net tender vessel was stationed at this normally open net, and closed the net upon orders from the Harbor Entrance Control Post (HECP).

In addition to the US Army using mines, German submarines laid mines in the New York, and other American harbors. Minesweepers would routinely conduct mine sweeping operations to keep these harbors safe for friendly traffic.


All of this information was collected and plotted on a daily basis, by Naval Personnel of the Eastern Sea Frontier Command at 90 Church Street in Lower Manhattan. The Army and Navy jointly operated the Harbor Entrance Control Posts (HECPs) at all protected harbors.

The harbor defenses of Southern New York were controlled by one HECP at Fort Wadsworth in Sataten Island, NY, an Advance HECP 1 at Fort Hancock at Sandy Hook, NJ, and an Advance HECP 2 at Fort Tilden in Rockaway, NY.

reumatiib
04-08-2005, 01:14 AM
In 'The Hunters And The Hunted' by Jochen Brennecke, 1958, one of the first U-boats to reach the area of New York Harbor around Christmas of 41, and whose commander was Hardegen, points out that though the US had defenses ON PAPER, that all their Christmas lights were on and the defenses were next to zero. "The harbor lights were burning as usual. Unsuspecting America!" and again, "What was it - sheer irresonsiblity? Overwhelming self-confidence?" Though he waited just outside of New York harbor, he likely could have entered it. The Americans were alseep at the wheel.
After zero hour came for Operation Paukenschlag, Hardegen would soon rack up "53,000 tons". It was like shooting fish in a bucket.

Think about all the wonderful weapons the US had on 9-11. ALl its CIA, its vast military industrial complex - NORAD and so forth. The same is true about Britain at the start of WWII. It had one of the best naval forces in the world with a long history. Yet it allowed many goofy and stupid things to happen, such as Scapa Flow, to take place. It took it a while before it got up to speed.

Of course the US defenses tightened soon after, and the next time Hardegen appeared off the US coast he had a more difficult time. But it was still a lot easier than going up against the Brit's coast by that same time period. About 300 ships were sunk in US coastal waters during that period.

Hardegen's score for his second trip to America was "79,000 tons". However he took damage from US aircraft on his second trip.

Booshka
04-08-2005, 03:03 AM
June '42 I surfaced in NY harbour with no problems, sent up a Star Shell to see if i could attract attention, didn't work, so a fired a couple HE shells at the Statue of Liberty, still no ships come for me. I left disappointed.
http://www.booshka.dsl.pipex.com/SH10.JPG

Saturnalia
04-08-2005, 07:32 AM
Giving the Statue of Liberty a damage model would be fun. Blow off the nose and a hidden hatch opens in the torch and fires 16" shells at you. That or she begins running after you.

Charlie901
04-08-2005, 07:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Booshka:
June '42 I surfaced in NY harbour with no problems, sent up a Star Shell to see if i could attract attention, didn't work, so a fired a couple HE shells at the Statue of Liberty, still no ships come for me. I left disappointed.
http://www.booshka.dsl.pipex.com/SH10.JPG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Too Bad http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I would have assumed some harrassment by some PT boats, at least?

Charlie901
04-08-2005, 02:17 PM
So are the N.Y. Harbor Defenses, dynamic, scripted, or dependant on the year of the war?

Maybe we need a mod for this?