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View Full Version : Why 4.10 causes so many problems.



fabianfred
02-13-2011, 07:05 PM
Humans seem to excel at destruction and not at creation.....
Why did TD decide to change so much of the code for 4.10?
Was it an executive decision to put a spanner in the works of the modding community, or were they doing so off their own choice.
It appears to me that many code changes were done simply to make it harder to mod and cause existing mods to not work.
Even Zuti's MDS they managed to ham-string and make nearly useless.

When will people work together instead of against each other..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

fabianfred
02-13-2011, 07:05 PM
Humans seem to excel at destruction and not at creation.....
Why did TD decide to change so much of the code for 4.10?
Was it an executive decision to put a spanner in the works of the modding community, or were they doing so off their own choice.
It appears to me that many code changes were done simply to make it harder to mod and cause existing mods to not work.
Even Zuti's MDS they managed to ham-string and make nearly useless.

When will people work together instead of against each other..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

mortoma
02-13-2011, 08:07 PM
I'm just sticking with 4.09 modded for now. Even with some of the improvements and additions in 4.10, I still enjoy 4.09 mod far better. I used to like TD, but lately I wonder if they are more enemies than friends. It's a toss up at this point but I lean towards mod.

A huge variety in the mod plane set is more enjoyable for me than the new radio stuff or G force limits and other additions. Not to mention the vastly superior sounds in the mod game.

VW-IceFire
02-13-2011, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fabianfred:
Humans seem to excel at destruction and not at creation.....
Why did TD decide to change so much of the code for 4.10?
Was it an executive decision to put a spanner in the works of the modding community, or were they doing so off their own choice.
It appears to me that many code changes were done simply to make it harder to mod and cause existing mods to not work.
Even Zuti's MDS they managed to ham-string and make nearly useless.

When will people work together instead of against each other..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Different people are after different things. Lots of MODs are REALLY interesting productions but they only work well on high end systems or they aren't very well optimized/fully realized (no real authentic cockpit for example). It's ok when it's a MOD... just something someone is working on or tinkering with. That's not to say that some MOD productions are complete either.

I love 4.10. I wanted the new changes and I'm glad to have them. I'm very happy with the new high quality Hs129 model and beautiful cockpit. The G force limits have changed online for me... particularly when up against planes like the La7 which used to be able to wheel around the sky like nobody's business. Now it can't pull some of the crazy stunts at high speed like before.

MDS has been a bit more difficult to work with and I understand that it proved difficult to get running smoothly... I believe that's the case with modified 4.09 versions with Zuti's MDS as well.

I think it's a little silly to attribute malice. Development went a certain way. I don't have the impression that the idea was to **** of people... although certain people have taken 4.10 very personally (for very strange reasons). I don't understand that part. The guys working on this do it on their own time and they are very passionate about building on to the legacy of the game.

Romanator21
02-13-2011, 10:48 PM
Thanks Ice-Fire for injecting some sense...

Stop complaining guys, and get a grip.

Erkki_M
02-13-2011, 11:17 PM
To me 4.10 changed things to better direction on so many levels that even the mods' 300 new planes get nowhere close. Its the quality over quantity for me... ...and 4.10 just introduced some brand new factors into air combat alone. No more bat turns.

Treetop64
02-13-2011, 11:34 PM
Fabian, are you serious...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Frankly, that's a fairly pathetic point of view you're taking.

MajorBloodnok
02-14-2011, 02:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Its the quality over quantity for me... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Mind you, sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm just sayin' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

regards

Erkki_M
02-14-2011, 02:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MajorBloodnok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Its the quality over quantity for me... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Mind you, sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm just sayin' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

regards </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but until I can fly even 1 of the 300 planes in the stock game already, it doesnt matter much to me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

M_Gunz
02-14-2011, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
To me 4.10 changed things to better direction on so many levels that even the mods' 300 new planes get nowhere close. Its the quality over quantity for me... ...and 4.10 just introduced some brand new factors into air combat alone. No more bat turns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people see it as just one of the things they lost, including 'more planes'. But you can't say it like that, just point at the 'more planes' and don't mention the 'less realistic'. They liked things the way they were and hey, there's a choice!

Bremspropeller
02-14-2011, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its the quality over quantity for me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


This one.
Well done, TD - just converted to 4.10 (better late, than never!) yesterday, and I liked what I saw.

mmitch10
02-14-2011, 12:04 PM
I prefer 4.10. Thanks TD http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

jarink
02-14-2011, 04:32 PM
I have never understood why there is so much resistance to mods in flight sims when any more mods are an integral part of so many games in other genres, like FPSs. Please don't shout out about FMs and DMs; don't you think other games have similar issues and are able to overcome them?

I would love to see more collaboration between the mod community and the official developers. We'll have to wait and see, but if SoW doesn't include some sort of built-in moddability (even just for adding maps and such) then Oleg is really missing the boat.

tomtheyak
02-14-2011, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
I have never understood why there is so much resistance to mods in flight sims when any more mods are an integral part of so many games in other genres, like FPSs. Please don't shout out about FMs and DMs; don't you think other games have similar issues and are able to overcome them?

I would love to see more collaboration between the mod community and the official developers. We'll have to wait and see, but if SoW doesn't include some sort of built-in moddability (even just for adding maps and such) then Oleg is really missing the boat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to politely point out:

a) MDS was orignally a mod

b) The Slot map was orignally a mod

c) The majority of the fellas at TD were in the past modders

They have no agenda but to add new content within the mandate as laid down by Maddox games.

There are some great mods out there. There are also some good mods with inherent flaws. And there are also some mods which are of questionable quality and inspiration.

Many directly contravene the mandate laid down by Oleg, be they for the nature of their content (i.e direct competition for upcoming products, therefore, no BoB planes/maps in official Il-2 updates) or in terms of quality (too high poly/tex limits or poor LOD construction). This rules out many mods straight off the bat.

Considering the flak they get already - entirely undeserved IMHO - can you imagine the nightmare that they would face in an open community if they interfaced directly with the modders and their acolytes?

Geez, it's a bloomin' kangaroo court out there enough as is! They'd be heckled to Kingdom Come - and back again for not including somebodies pet favourite mod, no matter how obscure or questionably crafted.

The Status Quo Ante is fine. The modders will catch up and those little accoutrements that we all like that can't be/won't be/haven't yet been included in the official game will be available soon enough.

I suspect that the guys at TD are canny enough to know this and are looking to expand in other directions as well as picking up the odd mod for inclusion - if it meets Oleg's standards.

Ba5tard5word
02-14-2011, 08:19 PM
I like UP 2.01. 4.10 adds some neat stuff but it's not enough to make me want to give up UP. In any case COD is coming out pretty soon so it's not really a big deal for me, I've had a great time with UP.

WTE_Galway
02-14-2011, 08:52 PM
Never used the mods so not an issue for me.

Note however that, in reality, Il2 has always had some degree of modded content.

The Pacific Fighter addon was really just very strictly supervised modding. The P11c which came out with pretty much the first edition of the game was basically an Oleg sanctioned mod.

Fortunately, so far even with unsanctioned modding like UP we see very little of the "Quidditch Broomstick with matching Hogswarts map" nonsense that we see in games like FSX.

WTE_Ibis
02-14-2011, 10:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
I like UP 2.01. 4.10 adds some neat stuff but it's not enough to make me want to give up UP. In any case COD is coming out pretty soon so it's not really a big deal for me, I've had a great time with UP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

--------------------------------------------

Same here,
I have 2.01 runnung sweetly and I love it.
Naturally I tried 4.10 but no thanks.
UP2.01 with Zuti 1.03 and a heap of supurb maps, all running like a swiss watch.
I'll still be using this alongside the big kipper when it gets here.
cheers,
Ibis.


.

Gunshi0891
02-14-2011, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Never used the mods so not an issue for me.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's incredible what you missed , not only the new maps or planes , but especially the sounds or detailed cockpits that greatly improve the 7 years old game


I asked about 6 times on different boards if Team Daidalos would work on the AI , never got an answer . Then i searched in the mod scene , people kindly pointed me to 2 AI mods that radically changed my offline experience as the default AI is a complete joke , suddenly no more speed cheats , no more UFO helicopter climb , no more AI constantly overheating , having +35% damage because its "ace" , no more AI stupidly crashing or going back to Berlin before making another ground attack pass etc...


4.10m has some excellent features , particularly the structural G effect , morse beacon or AI can't see through clouds , this is excellent and i congratulate them for that

However i think that it would be kind of them to construct their next patch in such a way that it is mod friendly or at least that they work more closely with the modding scene in order to have the best mods included as long as they respect Oleg's rules , because some unnofficial mods are really quality work and great additions to the sim IMO

RegRag1977
02-15-2011, 06:26 AM
Flying 4.10 makes the difference: the new G thing is really rewarding, you can now see more difference between pilots skills, and this is what is needed in a sim.

This makes 4.10 far more advanced than all the other mods.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Still i have to say that i miss sounds, hit effects and ammo ricochet, and of course detailed pits count when you fly the P47 ( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif).

That said, i will fly 4.10 only, until they find the way to mod it, i cannot fly any other version without the G limits feature.

Between realism and cosmetics, i made my choice a long time ago anyway, the day i chose IL2 over the other sims.

Ba5tard5word
02-15-2011, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
I like UP 2.01. 4.10 adds some neat stuff but it's not enough to make me want to give up UP. In any case COD is coming out pretty soon so it's not really a big deal for me, I've had a great time with UP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

--------------------------------------------

Same here,
I have 2.01 runnung sweetly and I love it.
Naturally I tried 4.10 but no thanks.
UP2.01 with Zuti 1.03 and a heap of supurb maps, all running like a swiss watch.
I'll still be using this alongside the big kipper when it gets here.
cheers,
Ibis.


. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup...lots more maps, lots more planes, the textures for the ground and for planes looks much better and more modern, better sounds, etc. It runs a LITTLE choppier than stock but on my computer it runs fine if I don't use the more demanding effects mods. I can see how it could be almost unplayable compared to the stock game on an older computer though, mine is pretty good and it has trouble with stuff like the smoke and explosion mods, so I turn those off. It only adds a few totally new planes with their own pits, but those are really cool. It also adds in a lot of cool versions of existing planes like Spits and 109's. The 109 K14 is an absolute beast...finally, a 109 with two cannons in the wings again as well as one in the nose and two 12.7mm MG's too! Also the modded AI is fantastic and much less frustrating than the stock AI.

Compared to that, 4.10 only has a few new planes, one new map (with a few variants), and some other stuff. 4.10 is a step in the right direction (though I guess they still haven't fixed the errors it has caused) but UP just adds so much that I can't give it up.

Again though I don't have a whole lot of interest in Il-2 now that I'm eagerly awaiting COD, so arguing about which is better is a bit moot. But I still think UP 2.01 is more impressive and worth using ***for me*** than 4.10.

fabianfred
02-15-2011, 02:21 PM
My gripe is not with whether 4.10 or UP is better, but why did TD change the way things were coded, which instantly made many mods incompatible with it.
One cannot help but suspect that it was done on purpose.
The best part of 4.10 for me is the multi-throttles, and the slower ship sinking time.
The MDS always on without a way to disable it is a PITA because it causes many problems with missions which worked perfectly before. eg. in Single.Co-op mode ships which have been sunk suddenly pop up again after about ten minutes....and yes, I do know about the respawn feature and have not altered it from default.
Also the new realistic bombing should have had a button to enable or not.

Aviar
02-15-2011, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fabianfred:
The MDS always on without a way to disable it is a PITA because it causes many problems with missions which worked perfectly before. eg. in Single.Co-op mode ships which have been sunk suddenly pop up again after about ten minutes....and yes, I do know about the respawn feature and have not altered it from default.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair, this was a 'bug' and not a 'feature'....now fixed in 4.10.1.

Aviar

Hawgdog
02-15-2011, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fabianfred:

Was it an executive decision to put a spanner in the works of the modding community, or were they doing so off their own choice.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehe you said "spanner" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

fabianfred
02-15-2011, 11:09 PM
1.10.1 has fixed nothing for the MDS....it doesn't work at all now...
missions which worked yesterday now have no planes....the AI only plane cannot be controlled...and Zuti's site is down...I suspect he shot himself at the balls up they have made of his great work.

JtD
02-16-2011, 01:19 AM
MDS works absolutely OK for me, missions that worked yesterday still work today, all planes there, AI controllable.

Zuti is a member of TD, so he'd have to shoot him over his own work.

Urufu_Shinjiro
02-16-2011, 04:04 PM
Fabianfred, do you do any programming? If not then you don't really know what needed to be changed to do what 4.10 does or not. If you do then have you examined the code and found things changed for no reason other than to screw up mods? I highly doubt anything in 4.10 was changed that did not need to be changed to make all the new features. They remade the game practically, of course they'd need to change a crap-ton of code to do that.

Bearcat99
02-17-2011, 08:36 PM
For me personally? I can still see the benefits of both.

I like 4.10.1 but I will not stop using UP 2.01 simply because it gives me the best of all the worlds with the click of a mouse.. but 4.10.1 is by far an improvement over any stock version. The Mustang's FM has finally been fixed... I can now recover from a lot of low alt stalls like I never could before.. I still think that the P-40 is more stable.. and for some reason I can still shoot better with it (maybe that's why). The AI though still batty as h@ll at times is a bit more improved.. The added features of 4.10 as far as settings go is also a plus. Last night I flew a QM with 64 planes in the air and flak.. over Smolensk and I got frames in the low 50s on my 939 socket, 4GDDR400 GTX260 rig.. Not too shabby and a vast improvement over any previous stock version. I really wish though that TD would consider adding certain mod features to the stock sim.. like the skin mod.. and the minimap mod.. that made the map zoom bidirectional.. I think the added axii are fantastic.. Also the splashscreen mod.. Those are more or less harmless mods.. and truth be told I doubt too many folks would want to do the pink plane thing when they can just use icons.. but you never know. For me the mods were never solely about new planes... and some of the mod maps are pretty nice as well... When I want to go modded it is just a mouse click away.. so I don't see what the big brohuhah is.. From my experience with this sim over the past 09 years most of the problems that people have with it are caused by a short between the headsets somewhere or a HW issue.. I also think that the incorporation of Zuti into the sim is a good thing.. and UP needs to just take it out of the mod pack in order to comer up with a 4.10.1 compatible mod pack and let TD & Zuti fix whatever may be broken with Zuti....

I know that there will always be those who will never go back to "boring stock" (nothing could be further from the truth.. in fact I think that everyone should hit the stock sim at least about 10% of their stick time just to fully appreciate the sim on it's own merits and remind themselves how all those great mods became possible..) and those who will beat their chests about never having "tarnished themselves" with mods (They don't say that but the insinuation is there in more cases than not.. ) .. but the rteality is that there is some great stuff in here.. and the stock sim is a pretty decent piece of kit.. I hope to see a 4.10.1m<span class="ev_code_RED">M</span> sooner rather than later because I really enjoy some of the features of 4.10.. the built in stats feature is long overdue..

I think that if some of the better done modded planes were incorporated into the stock sim.. like some of the Mustangs in particular from where I sit but some others too.... it would be a good thing and perhaps more folks would fly stock..

jarink
02-17-2011, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
I have never understood why there is so much resistance to mods in flight sims when any more mods are an integral part of so many games in other genres, like FPSs. Please don't shout out about FMs and DMs; don't you think other games have similar issues and are able to overcome them?

I would love to see more collaboration between the mod community and the official developers. We'll have to wait and see, but if SoW doesn't include some sort of built-in moddability (even just for adding maps and such) then Oleg is really missing the boat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to politely point out:

a) MDS was orignally a mod

b) The Slot map was orignally a mod

c) The majority of the fellas at TD were in the past modders

They have no agenda but to add new content within the mandate as laid down by Maddox games.

There are some great mods out there. There are also some good mods with inherent flaws. And there are also some mods which are of questionable quality and inspiration.

Many directly contravene the mandate laid down by Oleg, be they for the nature of their content (i.e direct competition for upcoming products, therefore, no BoB planes/maps in official Il-2 updates) or in terms of quality (too high poly/tex limits or poor LOD construction). This rules out many mods straight off the bat.

Considering the flak they get already - entirely undeserved IMHO - can you imagine the nightmare that they would face in an open community if they interfaced directly with the modders and their acolytes?

Geez, it's a bloomin' kangaroo court out there enough as is! They'd be heckled to Kingdom Come - and back again for not including somebodies pet favourite mod, no matter how obscure or questionably crafted.

The Status Quo Ante is fine. The modders will catch up and those little accoutrements that we all like that can't be/won't be/haven't yet been included in the official game will be available soon enough.

I suspect that the guys at TD are canny enough to know this and are looking to expand in other directions as well as picking up the odd mod for inclusion - if it meets Oleg's standards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having used mods long before 4.10 came out, I am fully aware that several mods were included in 4.10. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">However, I think you missed my point.</span>

I know it's too late for the official IL-2, but I feel that SoW/BoB/CoD should have been designed with modding in mind, just like other modern games (including many other flight sims like FSX, X-Plane, and the Thirdwire "Strike Fighters" series) were. Heck, a game as old as Rainbow Six/Rogue Spear (released in 1999!) had a built-in Mod-enabler!

Such an option is almost a requirement for any current FPS-es as well as in several other genres. If they can find ways to allow mods and still minimize online cheating problems, then I would think 1C could. It's not like it's a new idea.

EJGrOst_Caspar
02-18-2011, 02:39 AM
Also CoD will have some kind of quality control - at least for online gaming. Its the developers choise, how he wants to see his product to be handled.

You can do with your game, what ever you want (in legal terms), but you cannot make it standard for all others then.

JG53Frankyboy
02-18-2011, 06:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
I know it's too late for the official IL-2, but I feel that SoW/BoB/CoD should have been designed with modding in mind, ..................... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC that is what Maddox said in an interview in the past.
Modding will be possible, but with a on/off switcher for online play - otherwise online play will be dead very fast !