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Grand_Armee
07-06-2007, 03:28 PM
I've generally played on easier settings, but now I would like to get where I can play online...but I can't land to save my life. I've done everything the 'training' mission said. I've spent every afternoon this week with a QMB mission trying to land the bf-109F4. So far I've had 2 successful landings...yes, just 2...and neither was pretty.

Hell, I thought that maybe I was reaching too high...so I set up another QMB mission with an A/C with a wide-track undercarriage. The results were no better.

My landing speeds are between 150 and 190 KPH as I reach the runway. If higher I go around again.

General results:

1. Gear crack up on first touch down...I've managed to alleviate this somewhat by adding a little throttle to lift the nose just before touchdown. Someday maybe I'll be able to get the timing better.

2. Gear crack up on second touch because the plane has bounced on the first. Even my 2 completely successful landings have a bounce happening.

3. Plane noses over just as it's about to stop despite the fact that I've either let go of the controls completely, or have the elevator raised to keep the tail down. I use as little brake as possible.

Once I get to below 200 KPH, the plane is sluggish and seems to wallow.

I'll be extremely grateful for any help. Otherwise I'll be stuck flying either the Me-321, or the Me-163 for the rest of my life.

Grand_Armee
07-06-2007, 03:28 PM
I've generally played on easier settings, but now I would like to get where I can play online...but I can't land to save my life. I've done everything the 'training' mission said. I've spent every afternoon this week with a QMB mission trying to land the bf-109F4. So far I've had 2 successful landings...yes, just 2...and neither was pretty.

Hell, I thought that maybe I was reaching too high...so I set up another QMB mission with an A/C with a wide-track undercarriage. The results were no better.

My landing speeds are between 150 and 190 KPH as I reach the runway. If higher I go around again.

General results:

1. Gear crack up on first touch down...I've managed to alleviate this somewhat by adding a little throttle to lift the nose just before touchdown. Someday maybe I'll be able to get the timing better.

2. Gear crack up on second touch because the plane has bounced on the first. Even my 2 completely successful landings have a bounce happening.

3. Plane noses over just as it's about to stop despite the fact that I've either let go of the controls completely, or have the elevator raised to keep the tail down. I use as little brake as possible.

Once I get to below 200 KPH, the plane is sluggish and seems to wallow.

I'll be extremely grateful for any help. Otherwise I'll be stuck flying either the Me-321, or the Me-163 for the rest of my life.

BrotherVoodoo
07-06-2007, 03:38 PM
Are you using your landing flaps? Try comming in at descent of 500 fpm then as you are about to touch down pull the stick to 100 ft per min and see if the landing gear likes it better. I usually fly US planes and am usually at 90-110 MPH on touchdown depending on the plane. Raise your flaps back up when your wheels are down to avoid floating too much. Pull back on the stick while braking to help avoid the nose over.

Waldo.Pepper
07-06-2007, 03:46 PM
You are trying to land on an air field aren't you?

Practice landing when you are up high @ say 1000m altitude.

Drop flaps and gear - then see how slowly you can fly without stalling. For the 109f I expect that you may be at around 130 or so. Perhaps a little slower.

Then when you know how slow you can go when your plane is all dirty. Practice flying around the airfield at low altitude.

Low is nearly landed, under 10 meters! Then edge closer to the ground and set her down.

Gently! NO BOUNCING! Easy peasy.

slipBall
07-06-2007, 03:51 PM
Practice over and over http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif... learn to enter and use the traffic pattern, say enter at 800m, speed say 200+ don't make your decent angle too steep on final, line up with runway aim for the threshold, try to be say 30 over stall speed at 1/3 rd throttle, watch your speed all the way down, when you are at hanger roof height gently flare up, cut the throttle setting in half or less from the third setting, just ride it out till she stalls to the pad, adjust with rudder aileron, be carefull to tap breaks lightly till she slow's down.....good luck

Lehnert
07-06-2007, 04:01 PM
Hello Grand_Armee,
do not be worry !!
Be patience - it works !!

1) Look at first straight ahead inside the cockpit
before take-off how
high the bar under the target-cycle is to the
airfield landing strip you are.
This is the position by landing the plane
without crashing the wheels.
Use the normal sight with the target cycle (Visier) - not wide view or zoom.


2) Incoming power hold at 35 % and speed about
190 km/h . At the moment if you touch down
power at 0 %.
Then pull the stick full to you and hit several times very short the brakes with using the rudder to stay at the landing strip.
Use the normal sight with the target cycle (Visier) - not wide view or zoom.

3) Use the practice mission "Landing at
grass strip" from Straight of the farm from Zeus.cat and change the plane to yours and set the time to 17,30 with an editor
Your target with the target cycle are the two
fires at the grass strip as landing target.
And then your minimum target (try to target with the cockpit bar) is the end of the grass strip roundabout to get the right position like point one.

I have had the same problems like you - and now
I can land every fighter with tail wheel as so good as the fighters without tail wheel - using and practice this three points above at first about 15x for every plane.

Please excuse my bad englih - I hope you can understand it.

Cheers
Gerhard

Deepbluewolf
07-06-2007, 04:18 PM
pretty good advice on landing procedures http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But I am a pilot in real life. I play ShIV not this sim but it is great fun to read what you guys post.

I recomend the manouver that Waldo.Pepper has described, it is used in real aviation when flying new equipment.

My 2 cents.

What you got to do in order to have the "feel" for the runway is:

Extend Final.
keep in mind that a plane turns into a crate when full flaps are deployed and gear is extended. when you are landing you are no longer flying. you are in a controled fall. the plane feels like a crate. gentle on the yoke.

Execute a few Touch and Go.
Configure to land but the object is only to touch down and run the wheels on the tarmac, no brakes, reconfigure for Take Off, (reduce Flaps to 10%) midle of runway Full throtle, and take off, on real life you turn left inside the ATZ and execute a circuit, reconfigure for landing, long final, just a bit of Flare above the runway touch down and repeat.

this is a procedure that happens to real life cadets at the 4th flying hour of training in the Portuguese Airforce.

have fun.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8040/f16am2zportugalww9.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
07-06-2007, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I recomend the manouver that Waldo.Pepper has described, it is used in real aviation when flying new equipment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can take no credit as I freely lifted it from the writing of Robert Hanson (Carrier Pilot) and Eric Brown. (many books!)

Deepbluewolf
07-06-2007, 04:29 PM
but it is indeed a very good manouver to practice a landing on new equipment. And a good pilot is the one who LEARNS from the experience from others instead of making a hole in the ground and disturbing the cows grazing.

On a side note, i might had that when brakes are aplied in a conventional geared plane, you press them VERY gently at the begining. Or you may get a very good look at the Tarmac. only when you lost almost all speed do you use full breakes. otherwise YOU Pitch.


The Touch and Go is an exercice to give the pilot a gradual feel for the runway.
EVERY new "pilot" trys to "dive" into the tarmac. that is why you break the gear. on a Touch and Go first you "glide" on the runway barely touching it, and in a few more times around you start to run your gear properly on the runway.
At that point you configure for a Landing.
And you will get it right.

-HH- Beebop
07-06-2007, 04:42 PM
Consider getting into Joint Ops Basic Flight School (http://www.joint-ops.com/joil2fb/)
It's free and they have a great bunch of guys there as instructors. They specialize in taking even a raw noob and turning them into a decent pilot. Some of the nicest guys I've ever met. My classmates were great folks. We had a member totally lost during the navigation class and we all stayed with him until he made it home.

Highly Recommended. It made a definite improvement in my flying skills.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/HH_Beebop/Personal/smallcopyofBeebop.jpg

Deepbluewolf
07-06-2007, 04:46 PM
that is really cool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif i think i might want to give it a try while I wait on Patch 1.3 for Sh4.

GIAP.Shura
07-06-2007, 05:09 PM
I would recommend trying to land the IL-2. It has a stronger undercarriage and is more stable. Once you feel comfortable with that, try landing the I-153. There is no trim on that and it is a flighty bird but the undercarriage is robust and you can get a way with some bouncing. After that, your 109 exercises will seem much easier, even if you have to be gentler on your touchdown.

Nosing over can only be the result of 3 things:

1) You are going off the end of the runway. You would probably know about this.

2) You are pushing forward on the stick or have trimmed forward.

3) You are over braking.

I know you said you used as little brake as possible but I think that no 3 is probably the most likely. For the brakes, it doesn't really matter how many squirts you use, just keep them really, really short. You can also use a bit of rudder to slow you down as well, doing a bit of a zig zag.

Anyway, good luck. With a bit of perseverance I'm sure you'll get it.

Grand_Armee
07-06-2007, 05:18 PM
Thanks for all of the help, guys. I've already improved my successful landing rate by 200%. I'll keep using your various suggestions until I can land without a sweaty forehead and serious heart palpitations.

strider1
07-06-2007, 05:29 PM
Can't recommend Joint-Ops too highly.
Great bunch of mates and professionally presented flight instruction with the accent on fun!
On landing, keep thinking:
Stick controls airspeed----nose down to increase, nose up to decrease.
Throttle controls altitude---if sinking too fast, increase, if sinking too slow, decrease.
Find the right combination to aim at the end of the runway like you were lining up a ground target to shoot while maintaining the right approach speed for your aircraft---it may take several adjustments along the way but keep your eye on the airspeed and the end of the runway, then flare (pull the nose up to horizontal) and gradually reduce throttle to settle in on the runway. I find that some planes work better with throttle at 12% to 18% until touchdown, still a gradual reduction rather than "chopping the throttle"---increases the roll-out but makes life a lot easier. Flaps up soon after touchdown will prevent floating with stick pulled back when flaps are up. Easy on the brakes and tailwheel unlocked when you're slow enough to turn onto a taxiway.
Hope this helps and Cheers!
Strider1

-HH- Beebop
07-06-2007, 05:56 PM
I have my brakes on a slider.......... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ...............really. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (X-52)
This way I can apply as much or as little as needed. If I see I'm overbraking I can let up on them, much like a real pilot would. Very useful when landing on a carrier.

Zeus-cat
07-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Download my "Straight From the Farm" campaign for practice taking off and landing on grass, fleet carriers and escort carriers. I also have included many single missions for practicing carrier ops. Follow the link below.

Persecutor_352
07-06-2007, 10:56 PM
All good advice.

Some very simple, basic assistance is here. (http://352ndfg.com/smf/index.php?topic=286.0)

It takes practice, like anything else.

Blue skies!!

ake109
07-06-2007, 11:18 PM
One more thing, did you lock your tailwheel on take-off and left it locked when you try to land?

I find it more controllable to have unlocked tailwheels when landing. Whats the RL procedure?

Roblex
07-07-2007, 02:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
EVERY new "pilot" trys to "dive" into the tarmac. that is why you break the gear.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is my first advice for new pilots.

oldtimer1946
07-07-2007, 03:01 AM
On a slightly lighter note: if you are new to online flying (like me) don't worry too much about having to land - it just ain't gonna happen for a while. These guys are SHARP.

Oldtimer

cygfrain
07-07-2007, 03:22 AM
Watching an old american training film for landing a harvard I found the following very useful for a tail wheel a/c.

1 As part of your final approach fly parrallel to the landing strip at about 300 - 400m so that the wing tip nearest the airstrip appears to be touching the runway. During this period you will be checking that your flap, undercarriage, prop pitch (set to 100%) and tail wheel lock is off.

2 When the nearest wing tip appears to line up with the end of the runway start a slow descending turn towards the runway.

3 You should find that you can see the runway for most of the descent and, with the advice given by other contributors here, gives you maximum control of the a/c alignment and final touch down.

4 You should be aiming to touch down just after you cross over the end of the runway.

I think this method holds true for carrier landings too. In fact Eric Brown, as mentioned earlier, was a master at this form of approach. It was, I think, the only safe way to land the Corsair.

I have also seen it used in RL at Duxford by pilots flying Spitfires and P51Ds.

Lehnert
07-07-2007, 05:16 AM
Hello Zeus-cat,
thank you very much for your great trainings missions !!
I have downloaded them about 3 month ago (I think so) and have improved my landing and take off skills with every plane I prefer to fly to my full satisfaktion !!

I wrote this hint to the pilot Grand_Armee some posts up in this thread.

But, excuse me, I have changed your missions with my prefered planes to practice landing and the time too - to see the landing help fires better.

Thank you again and cheers
Gerhard



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
Download my "Straight From the Farm" campaign for practice taking off and landing on grass, fleet carriers and escort carriers. I also have included many single missions for practicing carrier ops. Follow the link below. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roblex
07-07-2007, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
1 As part of your final approach fly parrallel to the landing strip at about 300 - 400m so that the wing tip nearest the airstrip appears to be touching the runway. During this period you will be checking that your flap, undercarriage, prop pitch (set to 100%) and tail wheel lock is off.
2 When the nearest wing tip appears to line up with the end of the runway start a slow descending turn towards the runway.

3 You should find that you can see the runway for most of the descent and, with the advice given by other contributors here, gives you maximum control of the a/c alignment and final touch down.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I would not recommend that method to a newbie. Taking out the Base Leg and Finals gives them a lot less time to get everything right. I would always recommend flying a little further out and extending the downwind leg at least 30 seconds past the end of the runway before making a gentle descending turn on to finals.

In fact reading Cygfrains method again it is saying that you are going to descend from 1200ft to 0 feet in a single 180 turn! Definitely not one for a newbie!

CaptainSquid
08-23-2007, 02:47 AM
*bump*

GIAP.Shura
08-23-2007, 03:07 AM
Hmmm, not sure why it was bumped but as it is here I thought I would just once again mention the video I made for flying a landing circuit:

Link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD5WkusBMQ0)

JimmyBlonde
08-23-2007, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grand_Armee:

General results:

1. Gear crack up on first touch down...I've managed to alleviate this somewhat by adding a little throttle to lift the nose just before touchdown. Someday maybe I'll be able to get the timing better.

2. Gear crack up on second touch because the plane has bounced on the first. Even my 2 completely successful landings have a bounce happening.

3. Plane noses over just as it's about to stop despite the fact that I've either let go of the controls completely, or have the elevator raised to keep the tail down. I use as little brake as possible.

Once I get to below 200 KPH, the plane is sluggish and seems to wallow.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems to me that you need to widen your circuit for a longer final, get your kite on track and set up for landing and then work on holding her steady on the final approach. When you are confident at holding her steady at 200 then decrease to 180 to get the hang of that and finally 160.

After you have mastered keeping the thing straight at low speeds you will notice that you can change your rate of descent with the throttle, pick a throttle setting that gives a gentle descent and practise timing when to flare, don't be afraid to give it a bit of juice to get out of trouble, but if you do watch the yaw. Eventually, by widening your circuit you will come to know when your kite is in good shape for a good landing and be able to shorten the circuit. It took me a long time to do my first 3 point landing but now I can do it 50% of the time (On a good day) by using these practise techniques.

CaptainSquid
08-23-2007, 03:22 AM
it was bumped up so some of you could remember who DEEPBLUEWOLF was, he passed away.

HERE (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1771095485)

And some people are still mailing him.
so i posted the anouncement in the forum.

Breeze147
08-23-2007, 06:36 AM
Here's what I do:

1. When I'm on the last or next to last waypoint, I cut throttle and raise prop pitch to 95%. Maybe drop combat flaps to cut airspeed.

2. I drop to about 500m altitude and fly up the right side of the airfield.

3. When I see my left wingtip pass the far end of the runway, I drop combat flaps and turn to the left. This will bleed off a good amount of airspeed. I fly back up the other side of the airfield until the runway is just out of sight when I turn my head all the way to the left.

4. I drop my takeoff flaps and make another left turn until I am lined up with the runway. With practice, you will be able to be centered on the runway just as you come out of the 180 degree turn.

5. I should now be at 200 - 250 meters altitude, 200 - 225 kmh airspeed. Using my gunsight as a guide, I place the dot just past the end of the runway.

6. As I gradually (and slowly) reduce throttle, I keep moving the dot further down the center line of the runway. At this point, you are using throttle only to raise or lower the nose, and rudder to move left or right.

7. Drop your landing flaps and gear. The gunsight dot should now be just above the far end of the runway and you should be at 30 - 40 meters altitude. Cut the throttle to 10% or less. You should have the feeling that you are trying to fly about 1 foot above the runway.

8. Cut the rest of the throttle and gently pull back on the stick. You should now have touched down. Unlock the tail wheel. Roll out for about 2 - 3 seconds and raise your flaps.

9. Start looking for your parking spot. Any one will do, unless you want to be cool and search for your squadron area.

Practice, practice, practice.

Do touch and goes.

Learn the stall speed of your aircraft. Some aircraft, like the Hurricane, for example need to be landed at higher speed or they will stall early.

If you are fairly damaged, land wheels up in the grass somewhere so you don't foul the runway for others. The plane can be replaced, you can't.

For planes with with a nose gear, make sure the main gears touch down first.