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View Full Version : whaaaat is sooo wrong with the damage models in this game !!!!!!



ned7777
07-11-2006, 11:55 AM
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh
i was playing in my own mission over iwo jima on relistic i was fighting a japanese transport plane just for fun with a warhawk(p40) i did a roll over the top of the tail but fellshort and my engine ripped the transports tail off.
i flew for a minute fine then my engine quit i crashed into the water. the transport however flew on with out a tail!!!!!! it should have crashed by then but it didn't. to the Japanese transports have raaaids anti gravity cat or are they just powered with photon engimes

ned7777
07-11-2006, 11:55 AM
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh
i was playing in my own mission over iwo jima on relistic i was fighting a japanese transport plane just for fun with a warhawk(p40) i did a roll over the top of the tail but fellshort and my engine ripped the transports tail off.
i flew for a minute fine then my engine quit i crashed into the water. the transport however flew on with out a tail!!!!!! it should have crashed by then but it didn't. to the Japanese transports have raaaids anti gravity cat or are they just powered with photon engimes

ned7777
07-11-2006, 11:57 AM
i looked at my replay thingo majig and asaw that while my prop was fine 2!! holes had apeared in my engine area some howw

hkg36sd
07-11-2006, 12:17 PM
Hey Ned,

Yeah,there are some weird anomalies that happen but understand that there is only so much that can be put into a flight sim (given limitations) I've seen damaged planes fly off into oblivion long after the (AI) crew have bailed! Minimal trade-off compared to some of the cool things you see online and offline. (IMHO)

ned7777
07-11-2006, 12:19 PM
i know but some times theplanes just don't dieeee
they will not just blow up like if there is a fire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif on the wing and an gas leak the plane should flame up and explode

ytareh
07-11-2006, 12:55 PM
Hey Ned Ive experienced flying THROUGH a He111 in my Hurricane without a scratch on me or my Luft opponents!!!But whatcha gonna do start to fly CFS3...Ive just spent an hour on it(yes with the Firepower enhancements) and its more than enough to satisfy my curiosity for another few months ...In fact with my new TIR3 it was the most CFS3 fun ever but still only knee high to Olegs beautiful creation...For every time you feel a bit disappointed by a limitation in this game theres more that it amazes you with some great quirk....eg the shockwave when you fly near a blown up plane at ground level...

VW-IceFire
07-11-2006, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ned7777:
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh
i was playing in my own mission over iwo jima on relistic i was fighting a japanese transport plane just for fun with a warhawk(p40) i did a roll over the top of the tail but fellshort and my engine ripped the transports tail off.
i flew for a minute fine then my engine quit i crashed into the water. the transport however flew on with out a tail!!!!!! it should have crashed by then but it didn't. to the Japanese transports have raaaids anti gravity cat or are they just powered with photon engimes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why is flying without a tail a problem? Most aircraft types fuselages provide some level of stability. Online if you loose your tail its still somewhat flyable unless you start manuevering in any sigificant way. The AI of course are a bit simplified so you do tend to see some unusual bits with certain types of damage...particularly with the tail off. But its not a huge shocker that it continued to fly...many planes continue to fly with shocking levels of damage that are scarcely believed. The strangest real life example I can think of is the Israeli F-15 that was involved in a mid-air collision and landed at base...only for the pilot to discover that most of one wing was completely gone.

Planes do blow up when fuel tanks are on fire. It usually takes time for the fire to really get going and either spread or cause an explosion. Try hitting the Betty bombers...ensure that the fuel tank is suitably on fire and it will explode (somewhere between 15 seconds and 2 minutes usually).

Its a complex system...not complex enough...but it is the best around for the moment. Sometimes you get some wacky stuff but its not as bad as you guys make it sound. We don't own supercomputers yet...so we shouldn't expect too much for your conventional consumer computer. It does a pretty good job anyways.

x6BL_Brando
07-11-2006, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if there is a fire on the wing and an gas leak the plane should flame up and explode </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try to find a copy of A thousand shall fall by Murray Peden, a bomber pilot's autobiography. In it the author describes returning from a night-mission to the Ruhr in which the plane is attacked by an Me 410, knocking out the No.3 engine and setting it on fire. Badly damaged, the engine could not be fully feathered and kept bursting into flames at regular intervals, only stopped by putting the plane into a climb! After the resulting stall the power was fed back to the engines slowly in the hope of preventing the windmilling engine from catching fire again.

Somewhere along the line they were attacked by a Ju88 drawn to the sight of a burning cripple, shot up some more but saved by prompt and accurate fire by the tail gunner - although the clumsy cork-screw evasion maneuver lost them 1,000s of feet of valuable altitude and set the engine on fire yet again. All in all, the engine caught fire every 10 minutes or so.

Eventually they landed at a 'crash drome' at Woodbridge, in Suffolk, but even then it wasn't finished. A tyre had been shredded by gunfire and the B-17 finally ploughed into a Lancaster abandoned earlier. No one was injured in the landing - but the crew were horrified when they were informed that the Lanc had a 12,000lb wedged in its bomb bay, having been unable to release it over the target! A saga of its own, for sure.

Fire in a wingtank doesn't necessarily mean a plane explodes and, more importantly, things don't just follow a logical, guaranteed sequence. In M P's words, "We had been told frequently that a fuel-fed fire, blown against the interior of the wing by the slipstream, could eat through the main spar in as little as two minutes."

A testament to courage, construction and plain old luck then - it took them one and three-quarter hours to make the trip from the first attack to landing.

B.

Dtools4fools
07-12-2006, 10:02 AM
I remember reading once of a German night fighter (I think it was) which was abandoned by the crew to damage and the plane continued to fly straight on until out of fuel...

I kind of like those rare events if they happen in this game - because they are as in real life rather the exception than the norm.

Of course there are limitations, specially how the damage is represented graphically.

Just shot down two Blenheim (in a Ki-43a). First one I finally had the left engine on fire after 3 passes but the plane kept position in the formation for a minute or so. I shadowed to see it going down, but it simply didn't. There was some light AA fire for a moment as well, and the plane must have been hit as I did not get a credit for it later on...
It still continued with the engine on fire when I decided to finish it off. As I moved in to attack again, suddenly - booom - the wing broke of and the two pieces were falling like autum leaves to the ground...

I then attacked the next Blenheim and once more after about three passes one of his engines was on fire, the other one loosing fuel. Still it hel postion to the leader. This time I decided to attack once more immeaditely, selfish me wanted the kill this time. I opened fire aiming for the burning wing/engine, and right then the plane started to drop over the buring wing and went down in an uncontrolled dive. My ammo was used by now and the fomration leader got away...

****

IL2-chuter
07-13-2006, 01:01 AM
Aluminum planes really should have more trouble not melting in the game then they do. This might be because of the simplified skeletal structure modeling used instead of some wildly complex realtime semi-monocoque structure stress analysis . . . lose the skins and heat up the spars - gone. Shouldn't have to rely on blowups to bring burning planes down. And when the gas is gone how does the plane burst back into flames again?

Anyhow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I've flown many planes in the game without a fin/rudder and landed successfully . . . I consider it a minor challenge. I've even flown a 262 without any tail at all. Freaky, but I used differential throttle for directional control and flaps for pitch. Got good enough on the way back to base to actually think I could land it (first plan was to bail) which I almost did . . . except for the explosion. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

The game is what it is . . . we will have better games in the future but this one is still one monumental step in the quest for deskbound reality. (Meanwhile, go try AirCombat or something similar, it will give you a WHOLE new perspective http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Dtools4fools
07-13-2006, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And when the gas is gone how does the plane burst back into flames again? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not an expert on such issues but remember Knoke once landing his heavily damaged 109 after he had a fire somewhere (couldn't locate it). Large part of the upper fuselage right behind the cockpit was burned away. Now don't think there is a fuel tank; it was a Belnheim turret gunner who did the damage btw.

Sure we have a very simplified DM, but to create somethink realistic is a thing next to impossible - because in real life alomst everything is possible too... from the one rifle caliber round that brings down a plane to over a hudred of bullet holes and the think still flies. From the plane hit and going straight down with no apperant damage to the plane fully in flames but still reacting to controls...

*****

VW-IceFire
07-13-2006, 07:27 AM
Whats so great about the damage model is that its highly variable. You don't get exactly the same result every time you shoot at an enemy plane. Sure there isn't that many variations but its random enough and it operates within a complete model rather than a very simple system.

So one time I hammered a FW190 with 20mm shells and the engine stopped and a wing fell off. Another time I blasted the rudder off and started a fuel tank fire. Another time I hit the cockpit and killed the pilot. Its variable...its not a hitpoint system where after 200 points of damage are dealt the plane falls out of the sky. Its so much better than that. Its not perfectc...but some of the DM complaints are simply due to random variation.

stuartdm
07-14-2006, 07:13 AM
Twice recently, whilst flying a P-39, my gunsight has shattered while the canopy was totally undamaged.

Nimits
07-14-2006, 10:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">my engine ripped the transports tail off.
i flew for a minute fine then my engine quit i crashed into the water. the transport however flew on with out a tail!!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Of course, it entirely depends on what you mean by "tail." Did you knock off the entire aft section of the plane, rudders, elevators, and all, or did you simply shoot off the vertical stabilizer. If the former, than yes, I doubt a real life aircraft could have maintained stable flight for more than a couple of seconds. However, if you simply shot off the vertical stabilizer, then alot of planes witha good pilot at the control and very carful handling could conceivable be maintained in the air and flown to a non-catostrophic landing.

SeaFireLIV
07-16-2006, 01:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ned7777:
i know but some times theplanes just don't dieeee
they will not just blow up like if there is a fire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif on the wing and an gas leak the plane should flame up and explode </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you think is a bug with IL2 is actually IL2`s greatest strength - variety in damage effects.

In an arcade way, you think everything that catches fire should blow up - NO. Everything in real life that catches fire DOES NOT blow up. Sometimes the sparks just don`t catch, the pilot gets lucky, or some other factor prevents the plane exploding - just like in reality.

Some planes just don`t dies, because they`re to reflect different damage effects in real life, not the standard child`s arcade game you`re so obviously used to where everything predictably dies at a single shot.

Get used to a simulation, not an arcade game.

BSS_CUDA
07-16-2006, 07:04 AM
you think thats wierd. try flying a 38. twice now I've bailed out of it at low spped and ripped it in half with my chute when it deployed. but the realli weird thing was yesterday. I attacked a JU88 and got too close and hit it. I looked out ly left to see my wing way gone.so I gave it hard right stick to try and keep it level while I was getting ready to bail, to my amazement she rolled right quickly. I'm like WTF? then I look out my right and see no wing there either. yet I'm hearing both my engines and all my control are still functioning. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I'm figuring this is not good. so I pull up on my stick and bailed out. as I exit my plane all that was left of it was the gondola. yet she continued to fly in a level climb after I bailed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif then I started thinking Dang I should have stayed with her and gotten into a furball with her. she would have been damn tough to hit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WWSensei
07-16-2006, 07:08 AM
The visual damage models in the game are representations and don't always reflect the actual damage to the aircraft. Sometimes it appears the tail is gone when part of it may still be there. For example: the same graphic may be used to represent the tail being 85% gone or 100% gone.

WarWolfe_1
07-16-2006, 07:53 AM
Not to long ago while I was flying a P-39 I got hit by a Zero 20mm shells. The plane starts buring and nearly killed my pilot so I bailed out. As I watched the plane fly on I see its missing one side of the tail, the rudder, and part of a wing. The fire goes out and she keeps flying straight and ture. I guess it ran out of fuel but by that point I was on the ground and game was over.

I think I should have stayed with it and flown home.

slo_1_2_3
07-17-2006, 10:14 AM
I have a hunting game , yes a hunting game. And I was shooting a whitetail , I put it right in his lungs and hew ran off so I tracked him only to find it grazzing in a field so i shot it in the head and it took off again, so I tracked it again so anywway I shot it 35 times over about 2 hours and it never died So what I mean to say is there are always a few problems with all the games, guess ya can't have it all.

WB_Outlaw
07-17-2006, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dtools4fools:
Not an expert on such issues but remember Knoke once landing his heavily damaged 109 after he had a fire somewhere (couldn't locate it). Large part of the upper fuselage right behind the cockpit was burned away. Now don't think there is a fuel tank; it was a Belnheim turret gunner who did the damage btw.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC, the fuel tank in a 109 is L shaped and sits behind the pilot's seat with the bottom of the L fitting under the seat.


--Outlaw.

Cooper4F
07-18-2006, 10:47 AM
Seems to me the P-40 damage model is a bit weak.....

The Warhawk was a very tough customer and could take a great deal of punishment.

This should be reflected in the game....

BFawlty
07-19-2006, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
The visual damage models in the game are representations and don't always reflect the actual damage to the aircraft. Sometimes it appears the tail is gone when part of it may still be there. For example: the same graphic may be used to represent the tail being 85% gone or 100% gone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is true and probably what you had happen.

BF

ned7777
07-19-2006, 11:22 AM
But i just think somethings are down right weird like a hk8 float plane going down after the rudder has been blown off but no damage. parachutes should not be able to take out planes either these should be able to fix. iwould rather have much better damage detials and such than 7 versions of the f4u none of which are much different expet for the ones with the cannons

Ritter_Cuda
07-20-2006, 08:01 AM
i think you need to understand the DM has got to be the most difficult thing to make. in real life it not understood. if you were to take two persons and shot them both from the same range,same place,same weppon, one would like die the other could very well walk over to you hit you then die.
as a game goes i then the DM is better then most. and am sure that it is something that gets worked on all the time