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Feathered_IV
10-07-2005, 11:35 AM
http://www.hepafilters.com/flanders/misc/latexglv.jpg

Feathered_IV
10-07-2005, 11:35 AM
http://www.hepafilters.com/flanders/misc/latexglv.jpg

Loki-PF
10-07-2005, 12:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
http://www.hepafilters.com/flanders/misc/latexglv.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup another week come and gone with no word... I don't believe Oleg "owes" us anything. But a little courtesy goes along ways. If he's too busy to drop us a line with a quick status update then I'm sure he could delegate it, yes?

RAF74_Poker
10-07-2005, 12:27 PM
&lt;----------- insert 2 week joke here ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

major_setback
10-07-2005, 12:37 PM
Mumble mumble...bald patch...mumble mumble...something vaguely witty.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

LEBillfish
10-07-2005, 01:47 PM
Friday update huh....Ok, used my doe tag this morning and froze my bare butt off. Was in a secondary location for lance hunting I had set up as I didn't want to spoil my prime location for this one buck I want and we had a serious weather shift yesterday (was hot all week, real hot, then dropped to 40'sF last night).

Knew it would be an early hunt at this location, so scrubbed down real good, did the dirt bath after thing, grabbed my lance, rope, knife and gloves and headed out about an hour before light.....Froze my butt off but there luckily was no frost so crawled into my blind, dug my toes into the black dirt and pressed down tight in my ready/coiled position and waited.

Only took a little over an hour and just after dawn here came roughly 7-8 does (couple button bucks mixed in) and a small 4 point. Took a quick look to make sure a larger buck wasn't lagging behind or flanking them so not to spook him for later...and tensed up digging my feet in deeper into the soil.

Let 4 smaller/younger pass having decided on the yearling doe (1 1/2 years old) to let the buck and larger doe go, and as it walk passed lunged the 2' it took.

This year unlike a couple years ago it went off without a hitch, perfect hit, it bolted and snapped the shaft off at the score line (have a nice scar running from the corner of my mouth down then up to my ear almost where a buck a couple years ago jumped at me and the shaft didn't snap catching me in the mouth).

Hit the heart and both lungs, waited 5 minutes for the rest to move on, and didn't even need to track it having seen it fall roughly 40 yards away.......Dressed it, dragged it (which was actually nice so cold it warmed me up) and had it skinned and butcherd by noon. Showered all the blood and dirt off, went inside and had roasted Venison heart for lunch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

There's your update......See, I am nicer in a coop then r/l.....I don't slaughter you after http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

nickdanger3
10-07-2005, 01:55 PM
Um. What's a lance? Like knights charging in a jousting match kind of lance? No way.

I'm serious. I have no clue what you were using to hunt with. Please enlighten me.

LEBillfish
10-07-2005, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nickdanger3:
Um. What's a lance? Like knights charging in a jousting match kind of lance? No way.

I'm serious. I have no clue what you were using to hunt with. Please enlighten me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's a 7' Ash shaft 1 3/8" in diameter with a 9" double edged spear tip on the biting end. Has 2 opposite from the blades in rotation guards or stops at the base of the spear tip, and I score the shaft just below that to break. Have a 1/2" rope running through the opposite end knotted.

So I lay out coiled, and using my left hand to guide it pull on the rope to drive it home (easier then gripping the shaft I think more accurate...Think of shooting pool). It's Archery season here, yet while it's warm enough so I can hunt "naturally" I use a lance then shift to a bow when it gets colder.

and yes, on our own private land.

Woof603
10-07-2005, 02:14 PM
I thought you were joking at first, Billfish. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

LW_lcarp
10-07-2005, 03:01 PM
Its easier with a 7mm Mag bang. Feild dress, drag, load into truck, Register, Cut out the tenderloin, skin, cut up then go cook up some tenderloin. Done by 8 AM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stansdds
10-07-2005, 03:09 PM
Let's see, patch update news......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

nickdanger3
10-07-2005, 03:14 PM
OK. So kinda like those three-pronged spearfishing spears...the kind with the rubber hose opposite the tines that allows you to "shoot".

Billfish, you are seriously core.

Bartolomeo_ita
10-07-2005, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Mumble mumble...bald patch...mumble mumble...something </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

LEBillfish
10-07-2005, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nickdanger3:
OK. So kinda like those three-pronged spearfishing spears...the kind with the rubber hose opposite the tines that allows you to "shoot".

Billfish, you are seriously core. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, more like this......

http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/images/014.jpg

with stops on it like this.....

http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/images/112.jpg


Some would call it a spear yet I at one time used 3 bladed ones that were more akin to a lance (though true lances not really sharp on the edges meant for piercing armor)....So spear/lance...whatever. Taken enough Deer, Bear, and Boar with them I can call it a toothpic if I want http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

9th_Spitin
10-07-2005, 03:58 PM
Venison, Have no taste for it. Now if they ever have a Black Angus hunt, I will be in line for my tag. Until then I buy a half a beef a year and call it good.

Billfish, must say I have never heard of anyone hunting with a lance before, so it adds a new twist to hunting.

fireman519
10-07-2005, 04:03 PM
Billfish, where are you located? I am in West Tennessee, and our archery season is open. They just opened up crossbows to everyone this year. I'll bet everyone rushes out to buy a crossbow, then, in a couple years, they'll have to have a special permit to hunt with it....lol

nakamura_kenji
10-07-2005, 04:28 PM
sound like yari weapon bit shorter, only weapon have grandfather sword thing most important me own

LEBillfish
10-07-2005, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fireman519:
Billfish, where are you located? I am in West Tennessee, and our archery season is open. They just opened up crossbows to everyone this year. I'll bet everyone rushes out to buy a crossbow, then, in a couple years, they'll have to have a special permit to hunt with it....lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Michigan, but took a Boar (not a Feral Hog) up toward Clingmans Dome, Cherokee side a few years ago...(originally from East Tenn. right up near N.C. border but was long after I left).

As to crossbows.....ehh.....I suppose if you need one handicapped is fine. Lots of myth though to the power and accuracy. Would bet oodles of dollars with my compound bow I'm more accurate then most at 70 yards (but won't take a shot at a deer over 30 if everything is perfect, 15-20 yards most times)....and with my recurve (what I use most bow wise) nailing 3" circles every shot at 30 yards so restrict it to 20 & drive nails http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

However, lance hunting the way to go....you must learn your quarry.

nickdanger3
10-07-2005, 06:06 PM
I repeat:

You are core.

Cadet_Bobo
10-07-2005, 07:07 PM
You're too much Billfish http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
In fact, I seriously hope you are planning to write a reference book about the Ki-61. I will buy it if you do.

Bobo

LEBillfish
10-07-2005, 08:01 PM
The scar I mentioned above (will leave it up briefly)......What ya get for not taking enough time before a hunt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/Me/scar.jpg

Feathered_IV
10-07-2005, 11:39 PM
Aw! Missed it.

LEBillfish
10-08-2005, 05:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Aw! Missed it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

put it back up "briefly", so look now

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-08-2005, 06:16 AM
Billfish, where at in mich, Im also in Michigan, southeast, RedFord area.

LEBillfish
10-08-2005, 06:17 AM
The land part......

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-08-2005, 06:19 AM
I hunt up near Torch Lake, I bow hunt, I dont know about using a lance, seems kinda ify to me.

Oyeah, and sexy scar.........lol

LEBillfish
10-08-2005, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VVaFFenPanZZeR:
I hunt up near Torch Lake, I bow hunt, I dont know about using a lance, seems kinda ify to me.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's iffy?....just have to know each deer you're hunting better.

Feathered_IV
10-08-2005, 08:20 AM
Sheesh! Missed again...

Thats the trouble when we're on opposite sides of the globe. While your'e flashing scars I'm having a kip http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

By the way though, I wonder if you could take a look at this: Mysterious Ki-61 ace (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=4211013563&r=4211013563#4211013563)

It's something that has been bugging me for years now. I understand that you are quite the officianado of the Hein and in with the good people over at j-aircraft.com. Perhaps you might know something of this.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-08-2005, 08:52 AM
iffy is: I dont have that kind of time to study my prey other than when I set up camp, and I do a recon of the area, Also, I wouldn't use a weapon like that on a deer, becuz I dont want to spend the time to track it. If it even died from the wound, Michigan deer mostly trophy bucks, would bust that off and survive, having that stopper on the lance u showed the pic of.

I normally buy new gear every year, I wash all of the gear I'm going to use in a unsented deterant, just for deer hunting.

Then I gear up, with my Bow, and 2 arrows, I can hit a dollar bill at 50 yards with my bow, I wouldn't take that kind of shot on a deer thou, but aI have it sighted for 50 just incase, incase what I dont know.

I use a deer grunter I bought in the styore and literally pour hot Doe piss on myself, my boots, and around where I plan to take up my defensive position.

I'll sit on the DP from when I get there, hour b4 dark, til 9 or 10 am. Then I'll start to stalk, I have a ghillie suit I hand made, it works badass.

1 shot 1 kill.

LEBillfish
10-08-2005, 12:10 PM
See now you do a number of things I would never do.....We both know how a 1 1/4" broadhead makes a huge hole, now imagine something roughly 2 1/2" wide..BUT 9" long and just as sharp that whole length. Bet my deer drop sooner then yours as the lunge then when they jump make gigantic holes.....The snapping off of the shaft so 1. you don't get your arms broken & 2. so it isn't running through the woods with a 7' pole sticking out of it. However, if a dead broadside (not quartering away where I'll hit the far shoulder)...I'll pass the tip easily through the other side.

Also I don't "wound" deer, I either insure my kill before I go for it....Or I don't take the shot.....I don't believe in "whoops".

As to the clothes washing that is a must also insuring no UV, and I store mine in a special shed outdoors...plus you naturally have to remember yourself each hunt which some seem to "forget".....However when I lance hunt that's sort of a mute point....Just a good shower and then a black soil scrub and I'm out the door.

As to 50 yards...I agree, and really think more people should practice at rediculous ranges. My compound has sights to 70yards which is the range I practice "form". What that results in is at 30 yards you have to practice at different spots or you waste your arrows blowing off nocks and feathers (and make my own arrows so don't have patience making new ones just because I blasted one target shooting).

What I might suggest though is don't pour doe-in-heat on yourself though.....A deers nose is so good it can determine location by side stepping and finding the strongest scent line. Think of it like a cone going out from the smell, in the center it strongest. Place any scents you use in film cannisters and "throw them out into the area where you want the deer to head toward "bypassing you".....As if he follows the scent he may bypass yours as they'll only smell them down wind. If you're in the path he'll smell you too.

With scents I have the best luck setting up mock scrape "& RUB" trails....Everyone forgets to make rubs...Odd but that visual cue really turns a deer on to checking that area more then just a scrape. Naturally those need to be made wearing high tight rubber boots and rubber gloves (scent free suits help too if you seal them up (sleaves and pant legs)).

However nothing, and I do mean nothing replaces knowing the deer you're hunting and the area........I am a FIRM believer that "Hunting is hunting for sign, learning the area and quarry....past that it's just waiting & killing".



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VVaFFenPanZZeR:
iffy is: I dont have that kind of time to study my prey other than when I set up camp, and I do a recon of the area, Also, I wouldn't use a weapon like that on a deer, becuz I dont want to spend the time to track it. If it even died from the wound, Michigan deer mostly trophy bucks, would bust that off and survive, having that stopper on the lance u showed the pic of.

I normally buy new gear every year, I wash all of the gear I'm going to use in a unsented deterant, just for deer hunting.

Then I gear up, with my Bow, and 2 arrows, I can hit a dollar bill at 50 yards with my bow, I wouldn't take that kind of shot on a deer thou, but aI have it sighted for 50 just incase, incase what I dont know.

I use a deer grunter I bought in the styore and literally pour hot Doe piss on myself, my boots, and around where I plan to take up my defensive position.

I'll sit on the DP from when I get there, hour b4 dark, til 9 or 10 am. Then I'll start to stalk, I have a ghillie suit I hand made, it works badass.

1 shot 1 kill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-08-2005, 12:54 PM
rgr that, I make fake rubs also, then I'll kick bushes, and small trees and russel up some leafs, and somtimes they come running, I also use a muzzle loaded 44 revolver, for close range.

I dont normally make big holes, as I always aim for the neck or head, I really dont care if I make a mess, besides, I only eat the inner and outter backstraps, that might seem alittle messed up, but I give the rest away to ppl who want it or need it.

And I rarly never kill an older deer, I always go for the little 1's, I like the way they taste better, My VVife really doesn't like me killing Bambi's but she doesn't know that badass steak shes eating is it either.......lol

VF2_Snowman
10-08-2005, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
However nothing, and I do mean nothing replaces knowing the deer you're hunting and the area........I am a FIRM believer that "Hunting is hunting for sign, learning the area and quarry....past that it's just waiting & killing".
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me, this is what it's all about. I always enjoy the scouting more than I do the actual hunt. The kill just gives it purpose.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-08-2005, 02:58 PM
what is this a barbaric thread?
are we back to the stoneage?
do we need it so bad ?

Friday updates turns into killing animals?
killing must give you a really good feeling?

so sad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

now how about PF friday update?

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-08-2005, 03:24 PM
Oboy, r u a tree hugger to, cuz I'm a carpenter...........lol

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-08-2005, 03:40 PM
sorry could you tell me the link between trees and animals? ...somehow i dont see it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
or are you hunting trees to? LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

take a chainsaw...your bow, spear or 44 wont do much http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-08-2005, 03:49 PM
VVhat my statment means, is Oboy a animals rights activist, I wonder if he is also a tree hugger becuz I am a Carpenter, and I waste lumber all day long. So I figured If u got offended by our chatting about hunting off the land, you'd be pissed about me depleting the trees in Canada, and where ever Geogia Pacific gets their trees.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-08-2005, 04:05 PM
you are comparing trees with animals...that tells me enough about you
so i figure you wont mind if i kill your dog or whatever pet you have or instead take a tree down in you backyard

im no animal rights activist but i do happen to like animals and respect them unlike you

i also understand killing animals for pure survival or for keeping the enviorment in balance (that we f#cked up btw) For joy...no respect...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

lairdperkins
10-08-2005, 04:32 PM
Oh come on Sunburst - Why would you compare killing a pet to killing a deer? A dog or a cat is a domesticated animal that's dependent on its relationship with humans for survival.

Deer, at least those in Tennesee and Michigan, sure as heck aren't domesticated.

I'm not much of a hunter myself, but I do understand the ecological value of hunting. Since most of the natural preadtors in the US are extinct across a lot of their historic range, (wolves and bobcats etc) there has to be something to keep the deer population in check.

Without a hunting season, the deer population would soon eat through available food sources and either start in on crops, or start starving. If hunters happen to dervice enjoyment from the sport, more power to them. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of hunters either eat or donate the vast majority of what they shoot (or spear =) I can honestly tell you that there would be a fair number of hungry kids in a lot of the poorer rural areas of the central US if the deer hunters didn't donate as much venison as they do. (I've worked in church food pantries in Southern Illinois - this is not something I'm making up)

andycapp
10-08-2005, 05:03 PM
I bet for every deer youve taken with a spear or bow youve let three run off wounded and in agony
when you could get a clean shot with a high powered rifle.

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-08-2005, 05:09 PM
neg, I'm 5 for 5, all of them were taken b4 their first VVinter.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-08-2005, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lairdperkins:
Deer, at least those in Tennesee and Michigan, sure as heck aren't domesticated.

I'm not much of a hunter myself, but I do understand the ecological value of hunting. Since most of the natural preadtors in the US are extinct across a lot of their historic range, (wolves and bobcats etc) there has to be something to keep the deer population in check.

Without a hunting season, the deer population would soon eat through available food sources and either start in on crops, or start starving. If hunters happen to dervice enjoyment from the sport, more power to them. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of hunters either eat or donate the vast majority of what they shoot (or spear =) I can honestly tell you that there would be a fair number of hungry kids in a lot of the poorer rural areas of the central US if the deer hunters didn't donate as much venison as they do. (I've worked in church food pantries in Southern Illinois - this is not something I'm making up) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey i agree...was looking for the word ecological balance, read my last post again.

ofcourse hunting is needed sometimes in order to keep deer population in check
i was more aiming for hunting bears and other nice animals with spears bows and what not
it all sounds a little barbaric to me
just like that stupid tradition the british have with fox hunting for fun, or bullfighting in spain, killing whales for the rich/lux in japan or norway
i guess killing is human nature

i dunno maybe im past my prehistoric caveman feelings LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Bolt40
10-08-2005, 07:18 PM
Freakin amateurs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif .22 mag / with a spotlight , head to the bottoms after dark , drink 6 pack , kill deer , " ground check it "
go home . http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEBillfish
10-08-2005, 08:21 PM
Never wounded an animal and in fact many I've shot didn't even realize they were hit going back to eating, then weaved, and down.

However, I am a firm believer in P.E.T.A.

People Eating Tasty Animals http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


and unless you're a hard core vegetarian....you can't condemn it.

andycapp
10-08-2005, 09:15 PM
yuove already stated your suprise at not having to track your wounded deer quote:Hit the heart and both lungs, waited 5 minutes for the rest to move on, and didn't even need to track it having seen it fall roughly 40 yards away.......

so the next time you wound a deer with your spear and have to "track it" ask yourself why your not using the proper tool for the job.

goshikisen
10-08-2005, 09:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lairdperkins:
Since most of the natural preadtors in the US are extinct across a lot of their historic range, (wolves and bobcats etc) there has to be something to keep the deer population in check.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that part of the problem? We've hunted out and destroyed the apex predators. There's too many of us living on the land that they range across and then we demonize them when they happen to walk into someone's backyard.

How does removing all of the natural predators in the eco-system fit in with sound ecological management?

LEBillfish
10-08-2005, 11:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andycapp:
yuove already stated your suprise at not having to track your wounded deer quote:Hit the heart and both lungs, waited 5 minutes for the rest to move on, and didn't even need to track it having seen it fall roughly 40 yards away.......

so the next time you wound a deer with your spear and have to "track it" ask yourself why your not using the proper tool for the job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surprise?...Not at all. Since you seem to have no idea on how something dies let me fill you in. Lack of oxygen to the brain OR massive damage to the brain...the end.

A head shot with a gun is risky (in that you stand a VERY high chance of simply wounding it in a horrific manner). In fact, most "gun kills" are actually shock related. The energy transferred if striking dense bone or muscle causes a shock to the entire nervous system, part of the bodies response is to constrict blood vessles often to the point of doing harm to itself.....Never the less, it is traumatic and causes the quarry "sometimes" to simply drop from the shock of it........It still however takes time to die. The only way to describe it is imagine being hit by a 100m.p.h. telephone pole....So painful in fact humans often relating they simply felt numb (nervous system shutting down)....But boy they feel it all over when it wakes up.

So the best shot on any mammal is to the lungs and or heart. Yet with a firearm you still have the energy transfer (much like getting hit with a giant hammer)........Now in the case of a well placed arrow or lance it is much different.

A 1 1/4" broadhead striking a lung will not simply put 3 slices through it, it is a VERY fragile thing. Often almost looking as though shredded. However, an animals nervous system is much different then our own. As I said above, I've often hit them with an arrow to have them jerk at the noise, then go instantly back to whatever they were doing as though nothing happened. That in cases where ribs are not struck soundly or it striking other bones or dense muscle.

The average factory broadhead tested against a surgical scalpal under a microscope actually has a much sharper and cleaner edge. Surprising but a fact......

Now typically when a large game animal is hit well, the broadhead WILL clip a rib sound, or in some cases simply the sound is enough.....At that point reflex kicks in and I have seen double lung & heart hit deer travel 150 yards in the matter of a maybe 20 seconds. Thats going through dense brush, jumping over obstacles all of it.

A PERFECT hit will register (start to affect the brain due to lack of oxygen/blood) in about that much time...At which point the animal becomes dizzy, falls and expires...and I'll not add the graphic details of how something dies due to blood loss past stating if passes out then goes through the reflexual motions.

So......You can expect 9x out of 10 to have to track a PERFECTLY hit animal. Part of it...can't track don't hunt. So naturally you can imagine how a human Jumping at you 5' away is enough to make them sprint let alone having a lance thrust in.



However, that's not your point is it....But I bet you'll let farmer Brown kill that cow for you, or pig or chicken....Or Salty Bob longline you a tuna or Swordfish.....Not your responsibility, you didn't kill it you just bought it so it naturally doesn't go to waste http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

So if you can't take any accountability for what your wants cause......Can't take the responsibility to do it yourself......Can't deal with the regret and heartache of killing a living being (and I've not met one hunter that doesn't feel it), lastly be so up close and personal you must look it in the eyes...well...

Then you are most deffinately not on par with my higher morality to take responsibility for my kills and do it in a manner that is supremely more difficult let alone more humane then a gun.....As point blank the judgements of a lesser mean little to me.

LEBillfish
10-08-2005, 11:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by goshikisen:
Isn't that part of the problem? We've hunted out and destroyed the apex predators. There's too many of us living on the land that they range across and then we demonize them when they happen to walk into someone's backyard.

How does removing all of the natural predators in the eco-system fit in with sound ecological management? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well not a problem other then it's wrong....Why I don't hunt big cats or wolves....(however due to their loss others have filled in, surprisingly the small fox and Coyote).....Never the less, what has really boosted numbers IS hunting. Michigan I believe the 4th in the nation as to deer population, yet numbers didn't climb till they opened up hunting of Doe's. Then it soared.

As soon as the smaller and weaker started being taken, numbers increased. Yet we are predators not sheep. So perhaps simply part of it....The part to attack the irresponsible actions of a small few.

By the by, thank hunters for your state and federal lands/parks, and wildlife & habitat conservation......Many years ago the HUNTERS pressed for the "Pittman & Robertson" act I believe it is where in they asked for a special tax to be levied on all hunting and fishing goods like ammunition, firearms and such (you'll need to look up the particulars).....That money is a huge chunk of what pays for what all enjoy...Besides the individual state revenue from license sales.

andycapp
10-08-2005, 11:32 PM
Lol was just fishing for a bite lebillfish
looks like somthing took the bait lol
im an ex gamekeeper and wish i could still hunt
being able to hunt on private land like that sounds awesome http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LEBillfish
10-09-2005, 12:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andycapp:
Lol was just fishing for a bite lebillfish
looks like somthing took the bait lol
im an ex gamekeeper and wish i could still hunt
being able to hunt on private land like that sounds awesome http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually you sounded like a gun hunter yet I'll take excuse is a good excuse to educate the anti's and weekend warriors who barely sight in let alone practice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

heh...best part is, no one has quite clued in on how I lance hunt yet....Deffinately a barbarian savage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Sadly, it's so cold here now I'll have to start dressing to hunt.

Aero_Shodanjo
10-09-2005, 12:42 AM
So I guess this is about the friday "hunting" update?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LEBillfish
10-09-2005, 12:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
So I guess this is about the friday "hunting" update?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you trying to say?.........It's not all about me?.......Dang, and here I thought I was the center of the universe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Tully__
10-09-2005, 05:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...best part is, no one has quite clued in on how I lance hunt yet.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I caught it first time 'round, thought it the gentlemanly thing to do to "leave it alone" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

goshikisen
10-09-2005, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So if you can't take any accountability for what your wants cause......Can't take the responsibility to do it yourself......Can't deal with the regret and heartache of killing a living being (and I've not met one hunter that doesn't feel it), lastly be so up close and personal you must look it in the eyes...well...

Then you are most deffinately not on par with my higher morality to take responsibility for my kills and do it in a manner that is supremely more difficult let alone more humane then a gun.....As point blank the judgements of a lesser mean little to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't deal with the regret and heartache of killing a living being... if that's really what most hunters feel then why do they hunt? Hunting, for the vast majority of people in the first world, is absolutely unnecessary. It's a "sport", entertainment, a pastime. You don't need to go out and remove an animal from its life. If these emotions of regret and heartache are real then the act of hunting when it isn't for survival seems rather neurotic.

To me there is a big difference between consuming domesticated livestock (and don't get me wrong, I had a 10 oz. New York Strip Steak on Friday night that was out of this world) and prematurely aborting the life of an animal that had to depend on it's wits to survive. If you lived in a hut in Alaska with no mod cons and your choice was either hunting or starvation... then grab the rifle and get your meal. Running around on your back 40 in Michigan in your mud-covered birthday suit chucking lances at deer... that's another thing entirely. (Billfish... just trying to summarize the mental picture you've provided http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Hunting for survival is necessary and proper... hunting for entertainment (and that's what it is for anyone with-in an couple hours drive of a grocery store) is kinda bizarre. The ecological management argument for hunting doesn't hold water... it's become necessary because we've screwed up the ecosystem to the point where it needs to be artificially kept in check. Besides... giving Hunters a major stake in how the ecosystem is managed is like letting McDonalds dictate national health policy.

Regards, Goshikisen.

- interesting debate by the way...

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-09-2005, 09:25 AM
VV0VV, VVe like to hunt for food, and fish, we pay a small portion to the state we live in to better our wildlife preserves, and build parks, and nature parks, for ourselves, we do need to hunt for food, if we go buy it in the store, we run the risk, of dieing from madcow or somthing(uk) so if u dont like to hunt speak ur opion, but dont start judging ppl buy what they do to live their life.

LEBillfish
10-09-2005, 11:32 AM
goshikisen, that is where I really disagree as a life is a life......Frankly as well I do not buy into animals are soulless, mindless brutes (like human males http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) just running amuck having no concept of emotion or thought. I will state for a witnessed FACT I have seen both farm and wild animals besides pets demonstrate learning, teaching, all emotions.

and it is not simply me trying to apply some human reason to their action...as it is repeated be it the pig you raised being rounded up in the truck to go to the slaughterhouse suddenly terrified at the change in your attitude and odd situation, yet instead of running gets close and puts its head in your lap looking to you for security........To seeing skills and knowledge be taught to the young ones by elder animals.

Call it "stupid emotional girl BS" but that's your loss, I've seen it too often.

So if they are so much then why kill them?

Well, that's not the point, nor reward.....Yet must be the intention or the point and reward is lost. I say intention, as you must focus and fixate on learning every aspect of your "particular" target...You must take the time to learn, you must get out there long before light, and sit unmoving till long after dark....You must endure ridiculous heat, extreme cold and wet...Yet during that whole time not move, just barely moving your eyes and watch/listen/smell...learn.

Try and imagine walking through pitch black with no flashlight a mile through dense brush, it so cold your shaking stops in just a few minutes after sitting down as it begins to pour, and you have an overwhelming urge to sleep....Yet instead of heeding the warnings you tough through it and wait the hour till dawn....Then sit the same place till an hour after the sun goes down unmoving, hurting, freezing, etc.......Now do it daily.

Why have that intent to kill, as you won't do the above without it......and if you're still, and pay attention, long enough for enough times....You'll start to have some realizations. So much time to not be distracted. So soon you'll begin to notice things that were always there, yet no one seems to see moving past too quickly....more so not just see that around you, yet clearly that within you....and you have no option but to face it having to sit there still.

Then it will strike you, the wonder of everything even down to the tiniest level. More so rediscover that magic you seemed to vaguely remember as a child or youth when everything was possible, yet everything a wonder.......and you will sort yourself out, remember just what is important, and become innocent once more as you learn innocence is not sexual, or ignorance yet simply having a wonder for all things, never seeing bad yet everything as good in some way.......Then, and only then, you'll find God.

Poetic ****?......Buy a bow, take a summer and learn how to use it. Make it so you can devote an entire fall and early winter to do the above. I swear to you it will be the greatest thing you ever did for yourself.

Yet you must insist you will do what it takes till you make that kill......Yet having learned what I state above, you'll find the regret as now you understand and appreciate life. You'll find a miracle as you look over the downed animal and dress it. You'll find responsibility and pride insuring not to waste any of it...and you will discover how wondrous the world.......and you are.

It's not a video game we hide behind, it's real, and to become a part of a world long ignored and forgotten by you, to rekindle the magic you lost so long ago....You must endure then sacrifice not an animal yet part of you by taking one to achieve it.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-09-2005, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by goshikisen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So if you can't take any accountability for what your wants cause......Can't take the responsibility to do it yourself......Can't deal with the regret and heartache of killing a living being (and I've not met one hunter that doesn't feel it), lastly be so up close and personal you must look it in the eyes...well...

Then you are most deffinately not on par with my higher morality to take responsibility for my kills and do it in a manner that is supremely more difficult let alone more humane then a gun.....As point blank the judgements of a lesser mean little to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't deal with the regret and heartache of killing a living being... if that's really what most hunters feel then why do they hunt? Hunting, for the vast majority of people in the first world, is absolutely unnecessary. It's a "sport", entertainment, a pastime. You don't need to go out and remove an animal from its life. If these emotions of regret and heartache are real then the act of hunting when it isn't for survival seems rather neurotic.

To me there is a big difference between consuming domesticated livestock (and don't get me wrong, I had a 10 oz. New York Strip Steak on Friday night that was out of this world) and prematurely aborting the life of an animal that had to depend on it's wits to survive. If you lived in a hut in Alaska with no mod cons and your choice was either hunting or starvation... then grab the rifle and get your meal. Running around on your back 40 in Michigan in your mud-covered birthday suit chucking lances at deer... that's another thing entirely. (Billfish... just trying to summarize the mental picture you've provided http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Hunting for survival is necessary and proper... hunting for entertainment (and that's what it is for anyone with-in an couple hours drive of a grocery store) is kinda bizarre. The ecological management argument for hunting doesn't hold water... it's become necessary because we've screwed up the ecosystem to the point where it needs to be artificially kept in check. Besides... giving Hunters a major stake in how the ecosystem is managed is like letting McDonalds dictate national health policy.

Regards, Goshikisen.

- interesting debate by the way... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, well said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Woof603
10-09-2005, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
goshikisen, that is where I really disagree as a life is a life......Frankly as well I do not buy into animals are soulless, mindless brutes (like human males http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) just running amuck having no concept of emotion or thought. I will state for a witnessed FACT I have seen both farm and wild animals besides pets demonstrate learning, teaching, all emotions.

and it is not simply me trying to apply some human reason to their action...as it is repeated be it the pig you raised being rounded up in the truck to go to the slaughterhouse suddenly terrified at the change in your attitude and odd situation, yet instead of running gets close and puts its head in your lap looking to you for security........To seeing skills and knowledge be taught to the young ones by elder animals.

Call it "stupid emotional girl BS" but that's your loss, I've seen it too often.

So if they are so much then why kill them?

Well, that's not the point, nor reward.....Yet must be the intention or the point and reward is lost. I say intention, as you must focus and fixate on learning every aspect of your "particular" target...You must take the time to learn, you must get out there long before light, and sit unmoving till long after dark....You must endure ridiculous heat, extreme cold and wet...Yet during that whole time not move, just barely moving your eyes and watch/listen/smell...learn.

Try and imagine walking through pitch black with no flashlight a mile through dense brush, it so cold your shaking stops in just a few minutes after sitting down as it begins to pour, and you have an overwhelming urge to sleep....Yet instead of heeding the warnings you tough through it and wait the hour till dawn....Then sit the same place till an hour after the sun goes down unmoving, hurting, freezing, etc.......Now do it daily.

Why have that intent to kill, as you won't do the above without it......and if you're still, and pay attention, long enough for enough times....You'll start to have some realizations. So much time to not be distracted. So soon you'll begin to notice things that were always there, yet no one seems to see moving past too quickly....more so not just see that around you, yet clearly that within you....and you have no option but to face it having to sit there still.

Then it will strike you, the wonder of everything even down to the tiniest level. More so rediscover that magic you seemed to vaguely remember as a child or youth when everything was possible, yet everything a wonder.......and you will sort yourself out, remember just what is important, and become innocent once more as you learn innocence is not sexual, or ignorance yet simply having a wonder for all things, never seeing bad yet everything as good in some way.......Then, and only then, you'll find God.

Poetic ****?......Buy a bow, take a summer and learn how to use it. Make it so you can devote an entire fall and early winter to do the above. I swear to you it will be the greatest thing you ever did for yourself.

Yet you must insist you will do what it takes till you make that kill......Yet having learned what I state above, you'll find the regret as now you understand and appreciate life. You'll find a miracle as you look over the downed animal and dress it. You'll find responsibility and pride insuring not to waste any of it...and you will discover how wondrous the world.......and you are.

It's not a video game we hide behind, it's real, and to become a part of a world long ignored and forgotten by you, to rekindle the magic you lost so long ago....You must endure then sacrifice not an animal yet part of you by taking one to achieve it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Billfish, you seem to go to great lengths, literary and physical, to rationalize your urge to kill animals.
[QUOTE] You'll find a miracle as you look over the downed animal and dress it. You'll find responsibility and pride insuring not to waste any of it...and you will discover how wondrous the world.......and you are. [QUOTE]
The English have a wonderful expression for the above quote: What twaddle! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

LEBillfish
10-09-2005, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woof603:
The English have a wonderful expression for the above quote: What twaddle! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I would expect it to seem to one unenlightened.....

goshikisen
10-09-2005, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woof603:
The English have a wonderful expression for the above quote: What twaddle! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I would expect it to seem to one unenlightened..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being able to spin the slaughter of a wild animal with some Whitmanesque "communion with nature" rationalization doesn't qualify the act as enlightened. Primal perhaps, but not necessarily enlightened.

Some of my strongest and most important memories involve getting up well before anyone else on an early fall canoe trip and paddling out into the middle of a lake while the mist is still hovering just above it's surface. If you stop paddling and sit perfectly still you will have as profound a moment as any you have described... and you don't have to pierce an animal's vital organs to do it.

I find the implication of what you're saying somewhat disconcerting... because at the heart of it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the message is "spill blood to fully understand yourself and nature". I don't agree... I don't think I need to track and kill an animal to find myself. I don't think dressing an animal will put me in touch with something I lost from my youth.

Regards, Goshikisen.

p.s. - are these gentlemen seeking enlightenment?

http://www.mulletsgalore.com/assets/images/picturebooks/14_mullets_n_guns_2/Dan&Bambi.jpg

http://www.mulletsgalore.com/assets/images/picturebooks/14_mullets_n_guns_2/MulletSlayer.jpg

LEBillfish
10-09-2005, 07:23 PM
Yet that is not what I stated Goshikisen....I stated that to endure the hardships to the degree you must, you must commit yourself to completing the hunt.

Now when the moment comes, then it is up to you as to what to do. I know many who simply cannot/will not do it and that is great. I know others who take that first one, yet never will again, that great as well.......Yet to achieve what I speak of you must commit to following it through....Otherwise you will quit early stating "well I wasn't going to shoot anyway".

I notice as well you have missed a valuable aspect of what I said......That being to get out, learn the animal and the habitat implicitly...and use a bow as you must be within 20 yards to make a responsible shot. The practice of it even a meditative experience in itself.

So why not just sit in the woods, or go to some distant mountain top and suffer through the elements, weariness and so on. Because 99.9999999% won't, yet, they might just hunt.

Pictures of unshaven rednecks holding up their guns a sad farce at best...The show after its over to say "ugg me he-man"....Naturally pictures of someone cradling a deer's head in their lap petting it as they pray never shown...More so the many who weep after. Yet I have personally never known one hunter who did not do both.

Frankly however your considering wild animals so much more then domesticated "I" find unnerving. They were made by the same God, yet have endured their entire lives in most cases in rather horrible surroundings for an animal....Their eventual end quite often rather horrific as I can tell you for a fact its been noted in some factory farms they've gutted and skinned them simply stunned not dead.

Yet you proudly eat your steak, carved off some slave of man, who suffered their entire life never enjoying the freedoms or fair chance at a full life a deer did to survive and look down on me?.........Worse still finding it acceptable to consider one of Gods creatures less then another to justify your ethics.....

Think..........

Woof603
10-09-2005, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woof603:
The English have a wonderful expression for the above quote: What twaddle! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I would expect it to seem to one unenlightened..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If ever I become "enlightened" God forbid I should try to justify my desire to kill animals
with sentiments that smack of a fifth place runner-up entry in an "I Can Write Like Ernest Hemingway" competition.

goshikisen
10-09-2005, 08:17 PM
Billfish, I live in the countryside and have spent a great deal of my time in the summers dipping a paddle in the rivers and lakes of Northern Ontario. I've slept outdoors in the dead of winter. In my time in the military I've had to stay perfectly still and perfectly awake in the dead of the night maintaining an all around defense while my comrades moved ahead on a recce patrol. Talk about freezing your a$$ off. Want to look into yourself? Try a 30 K route march with all your gear on a hot day. You'll find out a great deal about what you're made of.

My point... you can push yourself and learn about your limitations and strengths and not be engaged in a "hunt". You can track an animal and not kill it. You can gain insight into that animal and yourself, you can suffer the same exertions and tests of endurance without ever having to kill an animal.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Frankly however your considering wild animals so much more then domesticated "I" find unnerving. They were made by the same God, yet have endured their entire lives in most cases in rather horrible surroundings for an animal....Their eventual end quite often rather horrific as I can tell you for a fact its been noted in some factory farms they've gutted and skinned them simply stunned not dead.

Yet you proudly eat your steak, carved off some slave of man, who suffered their entire life never enjoying the freedoms or fair chance at a full life a deer did to survive and look down on me?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've already made it clear that I'm a conflicted carnivore. Despite my enjoyment of a steak I can understand why my vegetarian friends are the way they are. Neither the domestic or wild proposals sit well with me while you use one to justify the other.

You don't see yourself as speaking out of both sides of your mouth when you talk about the welfare of domesticated livestock and the act of hunting and killing a wild animal? You're romanticizing one and denegrating another... they're both awful!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Worse still finding it acceptable to consider one of Gods creatures less then another to justify your ethics..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That in a nutshell is the act of hunting, is it not? To take a creatures life away from it (to remove its freedoms and fair chance at a full life) implies that you don't see it on equal terms, that you have some dominion over it and can choose whether it will live or die. Which authority gave us the right to make these decisions?

I have uncles that hunt moose in the rockies of Alberta and I have listened to many hunters talk about their exploits in the woods over the years. I can tell you with a great degree of certainty that a tear was not shed when these men took down their quarry. As a matter of fact it was listening to their stories that made me first question my means of protein intake.

It's apparent that we see the world slightly differently and neither of us are going to convince the other to change their way of thinking. I don't look down on you... the issue gets me a bit wound up because I know it reveals a hypocrisy in myself. On top of that this is the PF forum... not an ethics forum.

Respectfully (believe it or not), Goshikisen.

LEBillfish
10-09-2005, 08:35 PM
Until you hunt......you'll never know will you? You may state you can guess, or be informed by others, yet...you still never will. Don't be so sure of the statements by those bragging is how it even is for them when it's happening.....Men do seem to have that need to sound Macho.

As to the eating meat/killing animals issue, why not just state it clearly in that though you will condemn one, you will still continue to do the other...the same, yet simply pay others to do it for you.

State it like was done in the Movie Tombstone by Doc Holiday......"My hipocricy knows no bounds".

Yet till you have done, and till you practice what you preach without exception...The words will bear little weight with me.

goshikisen
10-09-2005, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
The words will bear little weight with me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Likewise... take care.

WarWolfe_1
10-09-2005, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VVaFFenPanZZeR:
VV0VV, VVe like to hunt for food, and fish, we pay a small portion to the state we live in to better our wildlife preserves, and build parks, and nature parks, for ourselves, we do need to hunt for food, if we go buy it in the store, we run the risk, of dieing from madcow or somthing(uk) so if u dont like to hunt speak ur opion, but dont start judging ppl buy what they do to live their life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Every time you buy a permit to hunt or fish in the US, all that money goes to maintain, up keep, expand, conserve parks, lakes, ponds, reserves, and I think the point is made. So I fish and hunt and never whine about how much it costs because it is insuring that in the future these things will still be there.


To debate the use of hunting is worthless. The Deer populition, Climbs every year because preadtors have been removed. So now someone has to do it. Here it gets complex because you can bring back the preadators, and risk the lives of all those around us. To bring back bears, mountin lions, or wolves isn't viable.

The deer Harvest in oklahoma last year was outragous, but yet 4 more days were added to Bow, Primitive, Gun, and the Doe only days were increased by 2 also. Yet it is beleived that as high as the numbers were it still wasn't enough.
My county alone claimed 5,000 tagged. that doesn't include poaching, wrecks, and normal death rate. Yet there is talk of adding more days next year.

Nearly 2 months ago I struck 2 deer on the way to work. 2 Deer? in one place? thats right. The herd needs a little more thinning, Thank god my Kids weren't with me. Maybe if they stop hunting I can hit 2 every other day. Put a Deer catcher on the front of my Car. It'd be like the olds when trains had cow catchers.


Just some food for though.

LEBillfish
10-09-2005, 10:47 PM
BTW Goshikisen;

I do understand and appreciate your opinion on this.....In kind my comments are as to this topic as with all things I discuss not wholly with another individual (part of which I'm trying to answer all in each post).

Though one thing I want to convey before you go........It's not the kill, nor the enduring, nor the outcome of a hunt......Its the absolute self imposed lack of diversion being so focused (which part of is what you do to kill the time).....Daily, for a long period that makes the change. Not briefly for a couple days, knowing when the end of it will come....Yet the daily, from before dawn till after dark focus with relief unsure yet dedication unwavering that will bring it about....

For me it took 5 months without a break.....and then another 3 8 months later (having practiced the bow daily till then) till it came time for me to loose my arrow or not.

It would be difficult for the modern person, let alone those with responsibilities to take such time. Yet if they can it's worth it.

Be well,

Kelly

aussieosprey
10-09-2005, 11:17 PM
I shot a pig once with a .303 rifle. I felt a slight remorse at the act of killing something, but then pigs in my country(australia) are a pest and cause ecological damage to the native wildlife and vegitation.So i thought that it was justified. If u do hunt and kill the animal, as long as u use all the meat on it and not let any part of the aniaml go to waste i dont see the harm in hunting. But if its just for sport to hang its head in ur living room well its not on.

Latka_in_Hawaii
10-10-2005, 12:41 AM
Billfish,

I read your posts in this thread and I had to register so I could reply to you. I'm not a big fan of hunting for sport, but it seems like you're using what you kill... and I gotta give you high marks for doing it the old fashioned way. When it's broken down like that it really *is* a test between you and the animal. If only more would follow your example - then we'd weed out the stupid hunters naturally. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEBillfish
10-10-2005, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Latka_in_Hawaii:
Billfish,

I read your posts in this thread and I had to register so I could reply to you. I'm not a big fan of hunting for sport, but it seems like you're using what you kill... and I gotta give you high marks for doing it the old fashioned way. When it's broken down like that it really *is* a test between you and the animal. If only more would follow your example - then we'd weed out the stupid hunters naturally. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thanks yet unfortunately that doesn't weed out the stupid hunters either (which is the side of the coin most anti-hunting individuals tout).......To them though intentions are initially good (or based on ignorance) they quickly assume it's simply a matter of picking up a gun or bow and walking into the woods and killing.......

You have to be committed to the kill, yet that CANNOT be your sole intent or goal. Fortunately many of these guys fumble around so badly they see nothing giving up quickly as you suggest.....Unfortunately some however get a lucky break.....and pity the deer then.

Now if anyone wants to hammer on "irresponsible hunters".....Well hand me the drum I'll lead the parade. Yet to deny those who hunt responsibly and use it as a means of self growth based on our own personal tastes is just as wrong......

You'd be shocked at the number of "anti-hunters" I encounter on state land that have turned area's into wastelands with 4 wheelers, mountain bikes, or dumping trash & hammer on me. Naturally I'm evil though because they don't hunt (or they'd be taking care of that land & habitat "I AM PAYING TO PRESERVE" not them).

Funnier still, I'm viewed as being a violent savage due to being a hunter, yet these 6'+ 200#+ men often start threatening to beat up my little 5'5" 114# self actually even advancing violently. Guess they forgot who the un-moralistic savage laden down with all sorts of weapons is at that point huh?

fireman519
10-10-2005, 01:30 PM
Well, I don't hunt anymore anyway. I just don't like the feeling of killing a deer, when I don't have to, to eat. I don't knock it though, as I have taught both of my sons to hunt. I figure that when the time comes to pull that trigger, it will be up to them if they want to follow through with it. They may feel the same as I do after they actually take a life, and they may not. That is the freedom for them to decide on what they want to do. I love deer meat, and consume large amounts of it every year. I am just not interested in the kill anymore. I have had my share of kills. We are way overpopulated with deer in my region, and they have opened an unlimited doe season. My nephew, who is 10 years old, took 11 does last season.

I think LEBillfish has an interesting way of hunting, and it brings her great satisfaction. It is nice to have the time to put into her style of hunting. Personally, I think she might be somewhat of an extremist, but hey, it's her right to be that way. We all have things that we care so much about that some might think we are obsessing over it, but that's our choice. Life is short, and you should live it enjoying whatever it is that you like to do the most.

I guess I am still sort of a hunter, as I LOVE to Crappie fish. I live near the biggest man-made lake in the world, and we are known for our big Crappie. Nothing beats a big batch of Crappie fillets...mmm.

Billfish, you just keep on doing what you enjoy, and don't let anyone get to you for doing it. I think you have bigger kahunas than I do, as I wouldn't be able to sit still for that long, let alone doing it butt-naked. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

LEBillfish
10-10-2005, 02:09 PM
I thought the term was "Buck-Naked".....so you mean I could have been dressed all this time?!

Awwww maaaaaaan....... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

fireman519
10-10-2005, 02:14 PM
lol

VVaFFenPanZZeR
10-10-2005, 03:54 PM
Its Nov. 15th I got a old 1954 VVinchester semi-auto 12 gauge, my uncle gave to me, It only holds 3, 2 3/4 inch slugs.

I built a platform about 10 feet off the ground inbetween 4 maple trees on 1 of my buddies land in Ortinville Michigan, down the street from kid rocks, anyways.

VVe get out there around 0430ish, and by 1000hrs, I'm ready for a nap, so I doze off.

I got an old army extreme cold weather jacket on, the 1's with the white fur around the outer hood, with the wire inside to form it, well I got it shut, sawin logs.

I hear heavy galloping noises, like a horse, I'm thinking, dreaming about horses I thought. Minutes went by, and I was still thinking horses. Then it snapped in me, Horses those arn't horse noises, I'm hunting, and those are deer.........So I jump out of whatever trance I was in, and look around...........2 little bambi's standing right below me, laying down, eating eggcorns.

blam blam

Lunch is served

partic_3
10-10-2005, 04:51 PM
Well, I know I'd much rather be hunted for meat, and living a "natural" life right up until the moment of death, than farmed for it!
Remember, if it is valid to deduce the creator's nature from the nature of the creation, then God is a big fan of ubiqitous slaughter. Nature/evolution (even the limited sort admitted by intelligent designists) requires that the overwhelming majority of organisms fail to live a successful life, i.e. reproduce. If you really find this stuff distasteful then you should be a vegetarian. At the very least don't ever visit an abatoir!
I admire the itegrity of being prepared to be involved in every step of the production of the food one eats. Most of us aren't and you're fooling yourself if you think that industrial scale food production isn't every bit as distasteful as this hunting story. In fact a lot more so!